The Nineteenth Byte

12:06 AM

Golfing in this language may actually be surprisingly fun though. I've discovered a few neat tricks already.

E.g., to increment every item in an array, you can horrifically abuse the parsing by doing array{+{1}} (which y'all have no context for how that works but once I publish the spec it'll be concerning)

Unrelated String

oh yes

forest

Does it count as golfing if a code execution vulnerability in the interpreter or compiler is exploited?

lyxal

Yes

We do that all the time at vyxal

Unrelated String

those are the best golfs ;)

forest

Do you have to use the latest version of the compiler/interpreter or any official release?

lyxal

12:13 AM

Nope

Unrelated String

hell no

Radvylf Programs

@forest We actually have a bounty for answers that do that

5

A: List of bounties with no deadline

100-500 rep for solving challenges using an ACE exploit in an esoteric language I've reached 2300 rep, so here's a bounty for you RE/CTF enthusiasts for an answer I really want to see. CVE-2018-6849: Code execution results in code execution — TheZZAZZGlitch, "A friendly reminder: Lua scripts are...

forest

@RadvylfPrograms Does it have to be a 0day or does an n-day suffice?

lyxal

Anything counts

Example:

5

A: Create and write to a file

Vyxal 2.5.3, 32 bytes kh→@|;@+open(*"ww").write(VAR_)# Vyxal can't really do anything with external files, which would normally render this challenge impossible. However, in Vyxal 2.5.3 and prior, there was an ACE exploit allowing for arbitrary Python execution. Yep, I found another one. The AC...

That used 2.5.3 when the latest version was 2.6

forest

Neato.

Unrelated String

12:15 AM

we define languages by their interpreters, up to even allowing platform-dependent behavior on unstable nightly builds should you so choose

forest

Let's see what happens when I throw some esolangs at a $50,000 fuzzing cluster. >:D

@UnrelatedString Does it have to bypass common exploit mitigations, or can I assume executable stacks and the like?

lyxal

So long as you aren't breaking any standard loopholes you can do whatever the hell you want. codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1061/…

Radvylf Programs

It can rely on the computer/OS/... it's running on lacking various security things, although it might be less interesting in that case

forest

@RadvylfPrograms It's just that it's easier to use an executable stack than to find ROP gadgets.

Likewise bypassing stack cookies is a pain.

emanresu A

~~spectre in vyxal~~

forest

12:19 AM

> Custom compiler flags for building interpreters follow the same loophole rules.

Oh interesting... so you can use custom flags as long as the content of the flags adds to the byte count?

There are quite a lot of compiler flags that can really screw with security.

emanresu A

Flags are free now afaik

Radvylf Programs

^

forest

oh huh

Radvylf Programs

We rely on "answers that abuse flags for free and unintenteresing golfs will get downvoted", but if the flags make it more interesting/actually answerable they're perfectly fine

caird coinheringaahing

They just define a separate language

Unrelated String

12:22 AM

the only real restriction on doing Wack Shit is you can't both rely on and ignore a technical limitation like floating point imprecision or limited memory at the same time

forest

@UnrelatedString What if you rely on lack of a technical limitation? E.g. an integer overflow that requires allocating a massive buffer? Or something that takes a very long time to succeed (even if it succeeds on the first try)?

Unrelated String

that should be fine so long as the integer overflow can happen if you do in fact have enough memory for the buffer (or having insufficient memory for the buffer causes the overflow)

and yeah unlimited time is usually acceptable too so long as there isn't a nonzero chance of nontermination

forest

@UnrelatedString Usually such bugs rely on the process allocating more memory for itself, not that it's necessarily fed all the data. E.g. an int overflow on len that occurs in exploitable code after void *ptr = malloc(len * 512) or something.

Unrelated String

don't entirely get what you're talking about at this point so all i can say is virtually everything assumes sufficient memory for the desired behavior, so the only thing you can't do is assume unbounded memory at the same time as your program's behavior requires it to run out of memory

like counting on a stack overflow to terminate with an error or some such

forest

But it's fine if it relies on the system not running out of memory, even if it requires, say, a thousand petabytes?

Unrelated String

12:29 AM

yep

completely absurd solutions are a time-honored tradition around here

forest

haha nice

Does the shellcode have to be x86 or can it be in any ISA (assuming a compiler for the esolang compiler/interpreter/runtime/whatever with a target for that ISA exists)?

Unrelated String

anything you can run it on

forest

Neat. Shellcode can be made so much smaller if it's an ISA with very high code density. :P

Radvylf Programs

1:13 AM

In fact, we recently changed some rules that allow "anything you can run it on" to include soviet-era ternary computers too without a byte penalty :p

So if you can find an ACE exploit in Vyxal on a Сетунь it's fair game :p

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString *glances over at my O(2^{n!}) answer* nah :P

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms Tbf you don't need a Сетунь for that

~~even a potato battery computer would suffice~~

Unrelated String

i hate how i can't right click the links because it brings up mathjax settings lmao

but i'm not sure i've ever written a brachylog answer that inefficient holy shit

caird coinheringaahing

I ctrl-click :P

> it times out on TIO for n≥3.

That's from my O((n^2)!) answer :P

Radvylf Programs

Ooh if I get a 5 on all four AP tests I'm taking this year, they'll count for a full semester of college classes (at the college I'm hoping to go to)

caird coinheringaahing

1:17 AM

Imagine only being ablt to run an answer on n = 1 and n = 2 :P

Unrelated String

hype

caird coinheringaahing

r neutrino

Unrelated String

okay looking at the problem i can see how

i should try to find my worst brachylog answer given it's practically a language purpose built for the most awful brute force possible

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, all of the answers listed there are brute force approaches that rely on generating all possible "things", then filtering on "is it a special type of thing?"

Unrelated String

unfortunately i didn't actually get complexity for most of my active career with it

caird coinheringaahing

1:21 AM

But still, the complexities are horrifyingly inefficient :P

They all have Œ!, ṗ or ŒP in them as well :P

> This doesn't finish on TIO for any valid input

Unrelated String

nice

caird coinheringaahing

Wait, I think I got the complexity of one of those answers wrong, it should be \$O(n^m(nm)!)\$ instead of \$O(nm(nm!))\$

Unrelated String

nice

caird coinheringaahing

Can someone check?

Might be \$m^n\$, not \$n^m\$ actually

Aiden Chow

1:49 AM

dragonair desmos graph i made for math class :P (totally did not use regressions lol): desmos.com/calculator/tele8g1fmm

ok why is it so zoomed in

here zoomed out: desmos.com/calculator/tzja63ir3f

Unrelated String

beautiful

Aiden Chow

the ears (or whatever theyre called) look a bit off but im too lazy to fix :P

@UnrelatedString thanks! spent a while on it even tho half the equations are literally just regressions

lyxal

can't believe someone made a 3d maze game in desmos

what's next? Fully functioning sans fight using only graphing? /s

Neil

ugh, I just wasted two hours on a single game of Backpack Hero

Aiden Chow

2:16 AM

@lyxal well, someone has made desmos in desmos before, its fucking crazy what ppl can do on desmos :P

Aiden Chow

3:01 AM

for string i/o, can u always use list of character codepoints instead? is that some default i/o method?

Radvylf Programs

Yep

Aiden Chow

cool thanks

Radvylf Programs

Idea: I or someone else should make a gist that lists all the default I/O methods as like, short bullet points arranged by category, so it's easier to figure out if something's allowed

You know what I'm going to do that

Monday though, after I've taken the AP test :p

Aiden Chow

how many ap tests yall taking this year

Radvylf Programs

4

Aiden Chow

3:08 AM

nice, im only doing 3

lyxal

3:31 AM

@AidenChow 0

Aiden Chow

@lyxal oh... u in college already?

lyxal

I'm in Australia

We don't have AP tests lol

Can't do AP tests if there aren't any to begin with

Aiden Chow

oh ye facepalm

what type of standardized testing u guys have at australia?

lyxal

The HSC

But that's only for NSW

Radvylf Programs

Not Safe Work™

lyxal

3:34 AM

Other states just don't standardised test

@RadvylfPrograms programming can get quite dangerous with kids like you making horribly cursed esolangs

Radvylf Programs

I prefer to think of it as a horribly cursed praclang, because the cursedness it subtle enough you could go a few hours without really finding any particularly egregious stuff

If it screams "this is cursed" from the second you see it, your brain can go into self-defense mode and block it out. It's when you're slowly steeped in it, that the horror can sink in, like a slightly sharper version of what JS does to you.

att

4:31 AM

wait are you all in high school

lyxal

uni

Aiden Chow

@att one year before high school

att

wow im a boomer

lyxal

I accidentally spelled abstract wrong and I find it funny

caird coinheringaahing

5:04 AM

@att uni

Generally, I've found that TNB, mostly, ranges from 13y/o to 22y/o

With the odd proper adult around to how young we are :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing "tell us" should be between "to" and "how", idk why my laptop is being weird :/

lyxal

Good grammar very yes excellent done

PyGamer0

5:21 AM

@att 10th grade.. (in a month)

Unrelated String

6:03 AM

freshman in uni here as well but took a gap year

or should i say in uni as well, freshman but after a gap year

actually how does year get reckoned because the last day of finals was like today but there's also two summer terms so yeah still freshman

freshman but losing sleep on a 500 level machine learning class 🙃

Jo King

6:46 AM

literally just did my final uni exam yesterday

i get to dunk on all you young'uns

lyxal

7:10 AM

@UnrelatedString Is freshman first year?

@JoKing gosh that's an early exam period

Those don't start until June for me

(exams in general that is)

Jo King

trimesters

lyxal

Ah

Unrelated String

semesters + wacky extra terms over the summer that exist if you want them

looked up another school in my state and their exams are actually a week earlier than ours

Jo King

there's a summer term as well as the other three

Unrelated String

oh wait you meant jo's exams

yeah makes sense

except i also had my last final yesterday

(of the term, not my degree lol)

Jo King

7:15 AM

australia time is a little different

it kinda weirds me out that northern hemisphere school years don't match with actual years

Unrelated String

7:45 AM

oh yeah wait y'all's actually do what the fuck

that never occurred to me

Jo King

we usually start around late february, end mid-december

Unrelated String

because the new year occurs over your summer

Jo King

our financial year is still borked though

Unrelated String

ofc

Aiden Chow

spent about the past 2 hours handdrawing my dragonair desmos graph, apparently i cant turn it in digitally, it has to be a physical, handdrawn copy -_-

lyxal

7:54 AM

F

Jo King

just hand in the equation, let them figure it out

Aiden Chow

"let them figure it out" i wish that could happen lolol

emanresu A

@JoKing Same lol

@JoKing IME for primary/high school, it's usually end of january/start of february

emanresu A

8:21 AM

Cursed idea: Language with a 32-char codepage (so 5/8 byte), but some of those are digraph characters that become single bytes when certain characters (3/8 byte) are appended.

PyGamer0

8:53 AM

not a bad idea

Jo King

9:19 AM

@emanresuA i don't think that really works in practice, it'll become amiguous if you mix between the two

unless every character has to be digraphed? in which case it's really a single byte language with a strange representation

alephalpha

9:37 AM

Any feedback?

emanresu A

VTD please?

PyGamer0

11:04 AM

YES

i got the scanfixedpoint and foldfixedpoint working in flax

pxeger

@emanresuA VTD please?

PyGamer0

^^ sierpinski triangle in 9 bytes

lyxal

@pxeger I'm not EmanresuA but I'm happy to oblige

PyGamer0

actually 8 bytes ;b¬=`ʲW₅

in flax, 19 secs ago, by PyGamer0

v0.1.7

PyGamer0

1:21 PM

lyxal

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

PyGamer0

it has 3 stars

i think github's trending system is broken or something

lyxal

1:54 PM

somehow my github follower count has finally managed to break 179.

I swear it was stuck there for a month

just 179

not 180, not 178, just 179

PyGamer0

lol

New Posts

0

Q: Nominations for new TNB Room Owners

In response to the increase in off-topic discussion in TNB, we've decided to appoint more ROs. Here's how we'll be deciding the new room owners: For one week (until 14:00UTC, on the 15th of May 2022), nominations will be accepted as answers on this meta post. You may nominate any user, including...

6

caird coinheringaahing

That was too quick @lyxal :P

lyxal

I may or may not have been working on that for a few days now ...

PyGamer0

wow lol

@lyxal when did you reach 20k rep?

lyxal

2:04 PM

I totally haven't spent several hours preparing to FGITW my nomination if an election were to happen

@PyGamer0 last year

or this year

let me check

10th Feburary this year

Adám

Can we nominate NP? Pretty much active 24/7, and only occasionally posts off-topic things. Never engages in long off-topic conversations.

8

lyxal

VTC as dupe of Radvylf's joke

Apr 30 at 2:44, by Radvylf Programs

Actually, y'know what, NP/SP for RO. That's my vote :p

PyGamer0

@Adám true...

lyxal

hate to say it but you've been ninjad by 8 days

Adám

Shows how active I've been… Travelling a lot lately.

PyGamer0

2:08 PM

@Adám i finished travelling yesterday..

Adám

I just came home Friday afternoon, and I'm flying out again tomorrow.

pxeger

Where've you been?

if you don't mind telling us

Adám

I was Wednesday–Friday at APL Germany's spring meeting in Berlin. Now going Monday–Thursday to Dyalog's all-hands planning meeting in Brockenhurst, Hants.

I had to take Berlin because the bosses were attending FinnAPL's spring meeting in southern Finland.

graffe

4:28 PM

if I want to print a float to two decimal places I can do round(x, 2). If have a list of floats, how can I show them all to two decimal places using map()?

pxeger

which language?

graffe

python

(sorry, should have said)

pxeger

map(lambda x: round(x, 2), numbers)

graffe

oh yes!

thanks

des54321

@graffe assuming python, i think something like map(round, x, [2]*len(x)) would work too

if x is your list

graffe

4:32 PM

@des54321 oh wow.. I had no idea you could do that

in fact I don't fully understand it

des54321

im only like 80% certain that works though, lemme test it

graffe

map(round, x, [2,2]) say

pxeger

you could also do map(lambda x: f"{x:.2f}", numbers)

graffe

@pxeger very nice

@des54321 it does work

des54321

@graffe from the python docs: " If additional iterable arguments are passed, function must take that many arguments and is applied to the items from all iterables in parallel."

graffe

4:35 PM

@des54321 but I didn't know map could take three arguments

wow.. thanks!

pxeger

it can take any number of arguments >= 2

des54321

map takes a function, plus a number of iteratables equal to the number of arguments of that function

graffe

I learned something new. Thank you

des54321

4:50 PM

@graffe if this is for code golf though, a list comprehension like [round(i,2)for i in x] is actually i think the shortest answer by a byte or two

graffe

6:03 PM

@des54321 cool

emanresu A

7:49 PM

@pxeger Done

pxeger

cool

emanresu A

just how long did lyxal spend writing their RO nomination?

pxeger

too long

caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA well, it was posted 65 seconds after nominations opened, so he's a quick typer :P

emanresu A

696 wpm, definitely

pxeger

7:54 PM

6 hours ago, by lyxal

I may or may not have been working on that for a few days now ...

emanresu A

8:10 PM

I do love when buses cease to exist

2

Radvylf Programs

9:18 PM

I swear if there's lateral surface area of a parametric equation or some similar thing on the AP calculus BC test tomorrow I'm getting up halfway through, buying a plane ticket to Denver, and jumping out halfway through the flight

caird coinheringaahing

D.B. Cooper's origin story

Radvylf Programs

And if someone even thinks the word "polar" I'm making it a round trip ticket and doing it twice

forest

> Fun fact: this is my second time running for Room Owner of The Nineteenth Byte (my first run obviously didn't go so well).

What happened the first time?

Radvylf Programs

It was almost a tie but I barely managed to steal it from lyxal

They were ahead for a while, IIRC

caird coinheringaahing

@forest lyxal came 5th, with 4 positions open

forest

9:26 PM

I'll vote for whoever has the same taste in anime as me. :^)

caird coinheringaahing

Glad I'm not running (unless your taste is "I don't like it") :P

forest

Heathen.

Adám

> You may nominate any user, including yourself

Oh, really‽

forest

Wow an actual interrobang.

Radvylf Programs

I was a sentence into writing a self-nomination when I remembered I'm already an RO

Unrelated String

9:28 PM

he uses them sometimes

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám I thought it was implied that existing ROs and mods need not apply :P

forest

What about mods who already have a superset of RO powers? :P

Maybe if I get RO my name will be so italicized that each letter will be laying down.

caird coinheringaahing

That said, if someone does want to post a "No new ROs" 'candidate', anyone is welcome to do so

Radvylf Programs

(Renames Sprow to "No new ROs")

Unrelated String

i remember when i first discovered interrobangs i was like "wow why don't people use these"
and then i realized they just look weird in terms of weight or whatever
but now i've gotten used to adám using them enough that i've looped back around to thinking they're cool

Adám

9:31 PM

@forest 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵

forest

What unicode trickery is that?

Radvylf Programs

Probably the mathematics letters

Unrelated String

seems like italic codepoints that are then italicized

^

forest

I keep forgetting that italic codepoints are even a thing.

Unrelated String

it is kinda weird that they are

forest

9:34 PM

Every once in a while I remember that there are unicode superscripts and I get all excited before re-discovering that there's only a few numbers and very few letters.

Unrelated String

ᵃᵇᶜᵈᵉᶠᵍʰⁱʲᵏˡᵐⁿᵒᵖʳˢᵗᵘᵛʷˣʸᶻ render a bit inconsistently but the only letter missing is q

Adám

@forest Uh, all digits exist as both super- and subscript.

caird coinheringaahing

Plus, they're weirdly spaced/sized

Adám

That's a font issue.

forest

@Adám Really? hm, maybe I'm just thinking about alphabetical characters?

Unrelated String

9:36 PM

and i'm not sure if that's for lack of a superscript q in unicode or not because i just got that from the brachylog codepage bookmarklet :P

and yheah all digits are there

the codepoints for the digit superscripts aren't contiguous though

caird coinheringaahing

Honestly, I'm shocked that the alphabet is contiguous in unicode

Adám

That's for historical reasons; Latin-1.

@cairdcoinheringaahing "the alphabet"?

forest

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well it kind of has to be since it's compatible with 7-bit ASCII.

Adám

@UnrelatedString 𐞥

forest

For UTF-8 at least.

caird coinheringaahing

9:39 PM

@Adám Latin, sorry

Adám

@forest That's an encoding. Nothing to do with the Universal Character Set.

caird coinheringaahing

There's too many character encodings. I say we design a universal encoding that makes more sense, and covers all use cases to prevent these competing standards :P

forest

oh

@cairdcoinheringaahing UTF-32! Turn everyone's life into hell!

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why do we need an encoding anyway? Just store the code points!

caird coinheringaahing

Let each person create their own personal mapping from code points to symbols :P

Unrelated String

9:42 PM

just store all text as image files

Adám

@forest Why is UTF-32 even a thing? UTF-24 is plenty.

forest

I guess someone thought there wasn't enough kanji to go around.

Adám

Fun fact: Many implementations that go by the name UTF-8 are actually WTF-8.

user

9:56 PM

This thing?

Adám

Yup.

lyxal

11:26 PM

@emanresuA 4 days

Intermittently of course

Radvylf Programs

11:44 PM

I was gonna propose UTF-12 as a compromise between UTF-8 and UTF-16 but turns out it already exists and is quite cool

It's also more efficient than UTF-16 for everything except a small number of codepoints for some West African languages

lyxal

Efficient as in less overall bytes?

Radvylf Programs

Yeah

user

No, fewer overall bytes

Radvylf Programs

In fact, excluding ASCII/Latin-1 and those 64 N'Ko characters, it's also more efficient than UTF-8

user

smh speak the President's English properly lyxal

lyxal

11:50 PM

@RadvylfPrograms new golflang using utf12 when? :p

user

@RadvylfPrograms Like, for the average piece of text?

lyxal

@user Joe Biden is not my president.

user

I expected UTF-8 to be better for most things because people usually just use ASCII

Radvylf Programs

@user No, for literally every character in Unicode. It's a pretty good compromise.

user

Whoa

emanresu A

11:50 PM

like yoda speak you must

user

Speak like Yoda, you should

hyper-neutrino

wait, how is that even possible

Radvylf Programs

UTF-8 loses a ton of efficiency since proportionally more of each byte is for overhead

So outside of Latin-1, UTF-12 can easily beat it

hyper-neutrino

it can't fit two ascii characters into one 12-bit block so how would it be more efficient if utf-8 only takes 8 bits per ascii character?

user

@hyper-neutrino Ever since learning about the Monty Hall thing, I don't question it when people tell me a mind-blowing thing involving math :P

Radvylf Programs

11:52 PM

@hyper-neutrino All Unicode characters except Latin-1 and N'Ko

2 mins ago, by Radvylf Programs

In fact, excluding ASCII/Latin-1 and those 64 N'Ko characters, it's also more efficient than UTF-8

hyper-neutrino

oh

so wouldn't it not be more efficient for the average (english) text then

Radvylf Programs

Yeah. Languages that mostly use the latin alphabet would be about 50% less efficient, but UTF-16 was used all over the place until recently so I don't think that's much of an issue

UTF-16 is just really bad in general

hyper-neutrino

ah

is utf-16 better than utf-8 for like, say, the average block of chinese text

Radvylf Programs

Yes

forest

Fun fact: Windows internally uses UTF-16 for everything.

hyper-neutrino

11:54 PM

._.

Radvylf Programs

IIRC places that primarily use CJK have been slow to adopt UTF-8 because it's way less efficient for that

UTF-12 would actually help there, though

user

@hyper-neutrino Not ⛔ if we all start 🟢 writing ✍️ like this 😄😂😄😂😆

hyper-neutrino

ಠ_ಠ

Radvylf Programs

Proposal: UTF-24-2, which uses blocks of 24 bits which can either encode a single 21-bit code point or two 12-bit code points (or possibly chunks of a single code-point)

user

Only problem with UTF-12 is that it doesn't fit into bytes evenly but it's really not that huge a deal

Radvylf Programs

11:56 PM

Well ^^ addresses that :p

user

Yeah

You should make a new golflang using this :P

Radvylf Programs

Unfortunately I don't have the time to implement 0x10FFFF operators :p

user

Just use copilot and tell it to generate all of those operators however it wants

Radvylf Programs

Is it possible to write code solely using copilot? A golflang made by just rolling with what copilot does would be pretty fun to see

lyxal

You'd have to give it prompts and some boilerplate here and there to keep in on track

But it could be done

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