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00:00 - 07:0007:00 - 23:00

12:21 AM
@SandboxPosts No! Four Candles! 'Andles for forks!
 
12:39 AM
anyone here an artist or know any artists? I need someone to make a logo for Klein
 
12:53 AM
i think radvylf is a great artist
 
@RadvylfPrograms confirm? :p
 
@Ginger what was wrong with the cup one, i liked that
 
@JoKing that's what I'm going to use
but I don't want it to be my awful programmer art
 
1:24 AM
i feel like your logo's already pretty good
if you want something more polished looking just make sure the proportions are nice feeling and fine tune the line width
 
right
@UnrelatedString so what alterations do you suggest?
 
none in particular
it feels like something is too severe about something about the curve of the bottle body but it's nothing i can put a finger on
all i can say for sure is it's better than i could come up with :P
 
thanks...? :b
 
2:07 AM
version 2:
something about it feels... wrong tho
@UnrelatedString thoughts?
 
thinking maybe either have like a light gray around the "opening" or round out the corners
 
alrighty
@UnrelatedString I was only really able to smooth the top-left corner:
 
but I think it looks better
maybe the scale is a bit weird tho?
 
2:24 AM
oh yeah that one rounded corner looks way better than i expected
maybe something to do with the negative space? some kind of balance
 
@UnrelatedString I'm thinking either add a liquid to the bottle or put a giant [$!$$]ing K in the middle
 
ooh
i'd probably not put a k in the middle since that might exacerbate the balance issue but liquid is a good idea
also come to think of it
 
hmmm
ooh I know what to look at: the Homebrew logo
I'll use that as a guide
...but I have to leave now, biya
 
o/
this turned out poorly but this is a vague idea
it's at least supposed to look like a k
 
2:39 AM
 
3:07 AM
@Steffan darn
 
@Ginger confirmation
@UnrelatedString I like this
 
3:24 AM
@hyper-neutrino because it's the release of a language rewrite, and I figured I'd give it the same courtesy Vyxal's rewrite was given last year
 
Missing a bunch of lines I don't want to bother calculating right now, but a rough framework of a K-shaped thing sort of like Unrealted drew
 
@lyxal Then star it, don't pin it
 
Ayo I just figured that given the Vyxal rewrite announcement was pinned last year, I'd do the same for Flax
 
Arguably, the Vyxl rewrite shouldn't have been pinned, but either way: pins should be used for things that should be necessarily shown to all people joining the room over an extended period of time. Stars are more appropriate for publicly popular things, such as language rewrites
 
oh we did that last time? well it appears that was me, so my bad on that, I would consider that decision wrong as well
 
3:35 AM
Time to suspend yourself again :p
 
for some reason the message history claims that never happened but when i click the context menu it says i have starred and pinned this message
 
oooh, I should try that
 
@hyper-neutrino IIRC it says that for any pinned message, even if it wasn't you
 
wait a second
it says that for any message I star even if it wasn't pinned
 
@hyper-neutrino Message histories don't show pins, aside from who pinned a currently pinned message
 
3:36 AM
oh okay
 
Aka, chat is fucked
 
well, in that case we have no idea who pinned it cuz I starred Mith's message about us yelling at caird and it says I starred and pinned it even though it's never been pinned :P
 
@hyper-neutrino Huh, I've also starred this, but not pinned it, yet I can still pin it
 
oh wait
 
3:38 AM
As I just did :P
 
@hyper-neutrino even for me lmao
 
it says I've starred it when I click it on the sidebar but it says I've starred and pinned it in the transcript
@PyGamer0 okay so chat really just does not work :P okay
 
Chat really doesn't work :P
But, in the future: please don't pin language version announcements. Stars are more appropriate, as the languages aren't necessarily of importance to people joining chat
 
@Ginger chat avatar = main site avatar so yeah
 
i'll take responsibility for setting a bad precedent because I assume that was me (not sure who else it could be) but what caird said, thanks
 
3:43 AM
So today my family was taking Christmas pictures and the person with the camera made some joke about one of us being upside down for one of the pictures. Well I thought that was funny so I stood on my hands and got my dad to hold my legs up, but my arms couldn't hold any of my weight and my dad dropped me and now my neck really hurts 💀
 
christmas pictures? in november?
also lmao nice
 
Like christmas card pictures
 
Yeah I can't think of the right words for things it's been a long day lol
 
@DialFrost Oof, that's late getting up, because I'm going to sleep now. lmao
 
3:48 AM
@Steffan ye
i slept at 2am cuz jam when crossing back to singapore
 
You'll probably have passed me on the leaderboard in the morning
 
@Steffan doubt it
i've run out of challenges to do in julia
 
Oh lmao
I've still got a bunch more to do
 
@Steffan noooo
 
Are you sure? You've got 43 left to do :)
There's 84 holes
 
3:49 AM
@Steffan i mean i do, but i dont know how
 
As stupid of a language as rSNBATWPL was, I gotta say, it's given me a lot of good practice at making parsers and stuff
 
@Steffan go dc
 
@RadvylfPrograms Literally all my languages have improved my ability at coding parts of language interpretation
 
4:53 AM
hi
 
hiya
 
howdy
 
@lyxal i liked ur previous pfp better :3
 
but this one is thematic
it's for December + Christmas
 
good point
 
5:05 AM
i disagree
 
reminds me i need a decembery pfp
 
@UnrelatedString i dont have one :(
 
or a january-y pfp
 
Imagine not having a Santa hat pfp
 
Imagine changing pfp
 
5:09 AM
@Bubbler You changed your pfp for catgirl week, you have no leg to stand on :P
 
yeah a january pfp would definitely be easier than a december pfp
 
I don't want to change mine again
k now ttyl
 
I will go touch the yellow lemon
 
5:48 AM
All 25 CGAC challenges are now ready. Please come over and leave feedback before December!
9
 
@Bubbler im so sorry but i dont think i can give feedback :( 1. idk how XD 2. im going overseas in a few days
 
@Bubbler Out of interest, how many were adapted from Sanbox challenges?
 
Zero :P
 
Excellent :P
Gonna set myself a reminder in Sep/Oct next year to organise a "Sandbox Advent Calender" event
 
I hoped WW contribute more, but it ended up me doing me
 
6:02 AM
@Bubbler sorry i couldnt contribute anything... maybe ill try next yr :3
@lyxal why arent you active on code.golf >:( :3
 
neither could I :(
 
@DialFrost because I don't do prac-lang golf
Plus I prefer to golf in esolangs where strings are objects instead of a bunch of ascii values on a stack or a tape
 
@lyxal aww
 
Hot take: golfscript is a praclang
9
 
@Bubbler wat...
 
6:10 AM
what
isn't golfscript for golfing
 
@Bubbler The way it has multibyte keywords makes me agree
 
golfscript is the bridge between praclangs and golflangs
 
is this the reveal of code golfer elitism? "golfscript didn't go far enough"?
 
Golfscript didn't go far enough
Any golfing lang that genuinely believes while is worth having as a token is not golfy enough
Even just abbreviating it to wh (or whatever) would've been objectively better
 
@JoKing if anything, it'd be "golfscript went too far" being the reveal of code golfer elitism
 
6:15 AM
my question ↑
 
Golfscript's dated
 
somewhere outside the picture?
 
Golfscript now is in Useless
 
umm which side?
 
@UndoneStudios midline midline useless
 
6:16 AM
up or down :P
 
uh there isn't an up or down, it's left to right
 
Golfscript lacks the terseness and expressiveness of newer golfing languages, and the readability of older ones.
 
so... it goes in the first midline
 
At the time, Golfscript was revolutionary, and no one can deny that.
But, now, Golfscript is neither golfy enough to be competitive, nor useful enough to be a praclang
 
do "older golfing languages" exist?
 
6:18 AM
As demonstrated by a massive number of old CJam answers, anything Golfscript could do, CJam does better
 
I only golf in praclangs and joke langs
 
@Bubbler Languages that had an affinity for code golf? Perl, J, APL etc
 
Adám enters the room
 
@UndoneStudios You need to develop a 2d classification of languages :P
 
golfscript is unambiguously an esolang, but so ludicrously outclassed in golfiness that it doesn't really count as a golflang
 
6:19 AM
what is [x::n] slicing in python called?
im tryna do it in julia lol
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing And Pyth did a bit better than that, and Jelly did a bit better than that, and... nothing's really beaten Jelly. It's years ahead of its time and still useful and powerful today.
 
and yeah it's really funny what some of the baggage it inherited from praclangs is
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing later
 
@emanresuA Honestly, if Dennis was stil around, Jelly would be close to unbeatable
@DialFrost Step
 
start, step, slice
 
6:21 AM
I doubt it could do much better than what it is right now
 
i mean,
 
there'd still be some jank that couldn't be ironed out in the name of backwards compatibility but maybe jelly 2
 
start stop step
 
@emanresuA Rework the builtins
 
You've done that with your fork, it's become a bit more powerful but not much has changed
 
6:22 AM
You say that, but Dennis literally had an idea for Jelly v2, just before Vyxal was a thing
 
Huh okay
 
@emanresuA Absolutely not
 
what's a fork?
github fork?
 
like if i didn't know anything i'd assume that the first golflang would be like
all single character commands, but imperative with a bit of functional
 
yes
 
6:23 AM
oh ok
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Source? I'm interested now
 
my fork is an improvement on Jelly, but based on Dennis' rework ideas, Jli would've been significantly better
 
not straight up stack based but with a thin builtin set full of full words
 
6:24 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Jli?
 
Jli was Dennis' name for Jelly v2
 
like it really seems like golfy control and data flow would be what's missing
 
Remember Velay? That could've been interesting if I'd made any progress past attempting to rework the parser.
 
oh yeah i totally forgot about that
 
Man, I always forget I'm old to y'all :P
 
6:25 AM
lmao
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing default is 1 right
 
Yeah, I think so
 
Huh,there were even plans for jli to have fractional bytes
 
@emanresuA I've spend 5 years watching y'all develop golfing langs with "revolutionary ideas", and thinking "hang on, didn't Dennis suggest this 3 years ago?"
 
6:27 AM
Jelly was truly ahead of its time :p
 
Dennis was truly ahead of his time
 
yk what, im developing the 2d classifiying graph
take a patent on it @cairdcoinheringaahing
when i post it
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing ah tysm
 
i'm out here with like two years worth of "i'm totally making backtracking jelly with minor syntactic improvements"
 
For everyone who's engaged with this site over the years, Dennis has been one of the most revolutionary and insightfully language developers out of literally 10 years of golfing language developers
 
6:29 AM
^
 
incomplete
add to it
bold = yet to be made
 
From me being an older user of the site, plus me being a "historian" of the site, I can confidently say: No one on the site has ever challenged Dennis in language development based golfing abilities. And, to be 100% honest, I doubt anyone will
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing except Steve Jobs
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing you will :3
 
I appreciate the compliment, and I like to think I'm good at developing golfing langs, but Dennis was a league above me
 
6:31 AM
anyways what do you think of my graph?
 
Also can any mod set up an "upcoming event" for CGAC?
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing "was"?
 
@DialFrost As much as I hope for Dennis to return, it's been 3 years. Realism suggests Dennis won't
 
he won't
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing darn
 
6:33 AM
@Bubbler I.... may need to get hyper to do this, they changed the interface recently
 
Could ask in TL
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't think you mind
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing to what?
 
@lyxal Step 1 for a new Jelly is to re-evaluate which builtins have been useful, and which haven't
 
im out
 
6:36 AM
E.g. G is a complete waste of a single byte builtin
 
is there a julia equiv of * in python? (to join list by spaces)
 
print(*list)
or x = ' '.join(list)
 
julia version lol
 
the point is that python's * doesn't join list by spaces
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing I presume that step 2 is the hard part of figuring out what to replace them with
 
6:39 AM
@Bubbler it technically "does"
 
no
print does
 
^
 
oh
 
@lyxal That's Step 2, which I've half-done with my fork. Step 3 is figuring out how t add parsing exceptions to the language to improve golfiness
 
Parsing exceptions?
 
6:42 AM
corner cases that aren;t too useful with jelly's current syntax
 
Handling unparseable nilads probabyy
 
Eg., there's literally no reason for an NM...MD pattern without an ¤, unless the pattern is DNM...MD, so you can reasonably included a pasing exception there
 
also what to do when there's simply too many nilads
 
Being able to insert a nilad, modify it, then replace it into the chain, without a ¤, would save a bunch of bytes overall
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing well that just sounds like switching away from regex to something custom made and then doing some pre-processing and post-processing, right?
 
6:43 AM
@lyxal Sure, whatever. The issue is actually getting the changes done
 
Jelly's great in many ways, but its "parser" isn't.
 
there's a lot of subtle horror in there
 
Honestly, there's so many patterns where if Jelly could "recognise" the patterns that only make sense in that context, Jelly would be easily 10% shorter overall
 
also outside of chaining patterns, corner cases with quicks
 
It'd likely only save 1-3 bytes per answer, but would be so universal that it'd make Jelly crazy good, overall
 
6:45 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing that doesn't sound as hard as the step of figuring out what to replace useless atoms with :p
 
though generalizing missing quick argument behavior could also mess with the existing quicks that have their own overly useful special cases for that
 
@lyxal My fork aims to both figure out what atoms to replace, and what quick patterns to replace. Guess which one is done, and which one has had 3 years of dev :P
Quick patterns are fucking complex
 
Tybo's designing a language that's mostly based around beating vyxal's fizzbuzz without overspecialising
 
quicks are crazy
 
Isn't that vyxal?
 
6:47 AM
especially ones that are conceptually triad-adjacent
 
Without overspecialising i.e. no div by 3 / div by 5 / "FizzBuzz" builtins
 
@Bubbler done
 
thanks
 
@emanresuA well unless you can figure out how to get the fizzbuzz string in less than 2 bytes, that doesn't seem possible
 
@UnrelatedString Quicks were, imo, one of the most revolutionary ideas behind Jelly. Sure, J and APL were existing tacit langs, and O5AB!E beat Jelly to the market on SBCP, but Jelly was the first language to truly combine tacit programming intrinsically throughout it's parsing/coding, as well as use modern SBCP and use quick-based programming to develop dynamic programs
 
6:50 AM
aren't apl/j modifiers basically quicks
 
Combinining Pyth's prefix syntax, with CJam/05AB1E's block based coding into a single "stack parse" system was one of the steps forward in golfing lang coding
 
i always figured jelly's big edge was inventing fixed adicity
oh in that sense
yeahh
 
@UnrelatedString Yes and no. They functioned on fixed blocks of code, designated by brackets
 
because the grouping quicks and ones that just need three links are huge
 
i'm not the only one that always misreads adicity as acidity right?
 
6:52 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing can't they also apply to single primitives (or pairs)? the problem's just if you need more than one
 
Jelly's biggest advantage is it's hardest thing to understand: the truly inherent concept of chaining and patterns
@UnrelatedString Well, yeah, but the issue is combining them
 
so yeah jelly's holistic emphasis on tacit is the big thing
 
Dennis was, no joke, on Iverson levels of understanding new ways of coding
 
@lyxal Fractional bytes
I believe it's 11.75 bytes "legit", something like 8 with overspecialised builtins
 
6:54 AM
@lyxal Literally a language I made up 5 years ago, 1 byte: F
Bet you can't guess what that builtin does
 
@emanresuA frick, that's 0.25 bytes shorter than a theoretical legit v3 fizzbuzz
 
A language I never got around to making had a 0 byte fizzbuzz
 
Just wait for my language that can do fizzbuzz in -2.63 bytes
 
🤔
 
Would erase a random file on your computer every time it runs, thus theoretically save you a infinite number of bytes
 
6:57 AM
Nah, everytime I run it, one of y'all owes me 2.63 bytes
3
 
Then you'd actually have more bytes though
I'd be happy to give you 2.63 bytes from any of my answers
 
Eventually, I'll be able to beat someone with a 262 byte Jelly answer vs their 0 byte Metagolfscript answer, because of my owed debt
 
Good luck explaining what a 0.37th of a byte does
 
imagine not being able to understand 0.37 of a byte. Amateur. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have irrational byte counts to double check
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
 
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