The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-04-05 (page 1 of 2)

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ChartZ Belatedly

12:15 AM

We definitely have had an uptick in rational-numbers challenges recently. With my latest, and Bubbler's soon-to-be-posted challenge, we'll have 5 within 2 weeks

12:29 AM

3

Q: Quoted rational numbers

Quote notation is a way of expressing rational numbers based on the concept of \$p\$-adic numbers, written in the form \$x'y\$. The quote indicates that the number to it's left (\$x\$) is "repeated" infinitely to the left, then prefixed to the number on the right (\$y\$). For example \$3' = \: .....

code-golf math rational-numbers

1:19 AM

@NewMainPosts wonders whether caird noticed that his example has b that is not a multiple of 3

ChartZ Belatedly

Wait, which one?

> As x and y will always be non-negative integers, b will always be a multiple of 3, or be equal to 1

You did see the "or be equal to 1" bit, right?

Wait, I'm blind

Damn math, not doing what I tell it to :/

4 hours later…

5:50 AM

(gasps) HN has lowercased his name!

@pxeger apparently if my name doesn't fit fully, some people just can't see it at all, so I added a hyphen just so when it gets cut short it at least shows the "hyper" lol

ah lol ok

maybe i should keep my chat at 110% zoom too; it is a bit small overall

2 hours later…

7:26 AM

user image

I have spotted a bug

HN's username is different in two messages, it should have been changed to "hyper-nuetrino" in both places, shouldn't it?

usernames aren't updated in the transcript

at the bottom of the starboard, "boomer gang" also has my old username

probably status-bydesign, lol. idk the reason for this design choice but it seems consistent? idk

i think the only exception is if a user gets nuked, and maybe only for underage

or if the user requests to have their content entirely dissociated

@hyper-neutrino This UX is not so good, even they point to different links, but at last they are redirected to same user profile

First one goes to chat.stackexchange.com/users/281362/hyperneutrino and second one to chat.stackexchange.com/users/281362/hyper-neutrino

@Wasif yeah. although, the part after the UID is actually entirely irrelevant, like /users/281362/totallynothyperneutrino would still go to my profile

so it's probably just so URLs that aren't tampered with are easier to keep track of

1 hour later…

8:37 AM

If I make a code page change to my language because I'm realising a new version, how do I go about editing all the answers in that language that exist?

Asking because I'm close to releasing a new version of Vyxal and the 80 or so existing answers will have to be edited to be valid.

And obviously I'm not going to edit them all at once because that would flood the active page, causing disruption

I don't want to cause disruption but I also don't want invalid answers.

If you release it as Vyxal 2.0, then all of the current Vyxal answers can stay valid, and new answers posted in the new version follow the new standard

would that work?

9:06 AM

@Lyxal Oh so Vyxal was written by you!

@Lyxal Don't you want to keep the old version of vyxal?

@hyper-neutrino I've had an idea. Make the permalink generator link to a v2 version of the site. Would that work?

I mainly want to avoid having a v2 or 2.0 in the answer header

plus im going to want to update all my answers anyway

9:28 AM

How long was Dennis not active? (I'm just curious)

@math since an year approx

@math last message 396d ago

Ok.

@Adám but he usually shows up here (Last seen is usually in a minute ago)

@Wasif Right, but we don't know if that is e.g. just his computer rebooting and auto-starting the browser and loading this page as a pinned tab.

9:36 AM

@Adám I will write a bot for getting Fanatic badges in all SE sites :P

1 hour later…

10:50 AM

I did an 05AB1E corpus. Let's pray these suggestions will be accepted

11:46 AM

good morning

hi

ChartZ Belatedly

12:13 PM

@2x-1 Cool! I was going to do 05AB1E next, but I got distracted with other things :P

Good evening

Welp I'm off to bed

Bye lol

hello!

maybe it would be nice if chat posts have time stamps?

I guess you can find it out by clicking on an arrow

hover over > click the down arrow > shows when posted

yeah

if you go in the transcript and click "history" using the same arrow, it will show a more exact time

got you

I was wondering about a math challenge

given a probability distribution written as a list of 10 floating point numbers . What is the expected time to sample half of them if you sample uniformly and independently

any thoughts?

12:33 PM

@hyper-neutrino kebab-case ftw

In mobile version the UTC time is shown at the right-top side of every message

12:58 PM

@Wasif the ipad version is almost unusable as the keyboard hides where you are typing

1:13 PM

@ChartZBelatedly Next one is going to be Canvas

(Neim is probably the golfiest domain-specific language)

1:35 PM

@Deadcode damnit, you've nerdsniped me with the same problem i've been nerd sniped with before

1:46 PM

CMQ: I've just had the pleasure of implementing the Dracula theme, which was quite easy because it is fully specified. Do you know of any other well-specified modern themes?

is this a suitable spec?

@Wezl No, I looked at that. Lots of themes specify what their colours are, but not what syntactic elements they should be used for. Solarized falls in this group.

user image

here's a bit of usage content. Though it says "emphasized" instead of more specific "keywords" or "functions"

user image

This doesn't look consistent at all. It seems Solarized is simply a palette :-(

Original Original Original VI

That doesn't look like a bad theme, although the highlighting for variables and classes is the same.

1:57 PM

@Adám google material dark! material.io/design/color/dark-theme.html

fully specified with hex codes

Redwolf Programs

Looks more like a spec for making a theme, instead of a spec for a theme

yeah, but that's because it's for UIs

@Razetime Again, only specifies the colours, not their usages. Have a look at the Dracula spec!

ChartZ Belatedly

I can't remember if it's in the Python docs or in the IDLE help, but I think Python's default IDLE dark mode (and the light mode) specify what colours each "thing" should be

@JoKing @hyper-neutrino Can you give chat.stackexchange.com/users/505656/user11786133 explicit write access to chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/52405/the-apl-orchard?

2:02 PM

@Adám It does specify usage, it specifies the lightness and softness and stuff for each elevation, and examples for the colors for errors

ChartZ Belatedly

Ah, from here: Looks like the full specification (which isn't much) is in the /.idlerc/config-highlight.cfg file for IDLE

nothing annoys me more than the fact that many colour schemes have some different keywords in different colours, e.g. in my colour scheme for Python, all keywords are red, except class, import, and from for no apparent reason

@Adám done

Thanks a bunch!

@Wezl oh that's what it's called??

i like that name :P

Redwolf Programs

2:07 PM

I use snake_on_a-kebab_case :p

@Adám the Base16 theme framework has this guide: github.com/chriskempson/base16/blob/master/styling.md

ChartZ Belatedly

Camel_snake-kebab-_Case is clearly superior

I prefer oOPS_i_lEFT_cAPS_lOCK_oN

Or SpOnGeBoB cAsE

@ChartZBelatedly Yeah, that's enough info for in implementation, but that's hardly a spec, is it? Looks more like a specific set of choices for using the given palette.

Barebones interface for my Try It Online clone is now online!

(Currently only has Python, and no UI for arguments/options/stderr/timing info yet)

Please don't break it

ChartZ Belatedly

2:13 PM

I wonder what happens if I run import os; os.system('rm -rf /')? :P

Redwolf Programs

I'll go try it brb

I sincerely hope that won't work

It shouldn't

Redwolf Programs

You'd need --no-preserve-root

well yes, that, and the fact the root filesystem is read-only

Redwolf Programs

?

I've deleted / quite a few times, it works...

Not completely, I don't think, but stuff vanishes

2:15 PM

Your code is run in a jail/sandbox which has / bind-mounted with the ro option, so you can't write to it at all

ChartZ Belatedly

TIO handles it fine :P

Redwolf Programs

@pxeger Oh you mean in python

@RedwolfPrograms I mean on my website, independent of language (although Python is the only one that's there so far)

Redwolf Programs

Oh I'm just trying it on a machine that will actually run it out of interest :p

uh good luck

Redwolf Programs

2:18 PM

"thats the command for free vbucks right"

hmm, looks like it's using Python 2?? That shouldn't happen!

oh, that explains why the code i'm testing isn't working lol

I think I need to update the $PATH to prefer /usr/local/bin

Redwolf Programs

I usually prefer rm -rf /bin /boot ... with all of the important directories, since / prints a bunch of warnings for things in folders that are in use

Original Original Original VI

@RedwolfPrograms You usually prefer to do what?! How many times have you needed to do this?

Redwolf Programs

2:22 PM

user image

See :/

@RedwolfPrograms why go through python and not run it directly from bash?

Redwolf Programs

That's not what I was testing

I do that all the time

That's why sometimes I habitually almost delete very important things on actual computers :p

@pxeger Would it not be a good idea to use the same runner/wrapper format as TIO? E.g. this

@Adám I wanted to do it in a way that was a lot more flexible for weird software with a fragile environment - where e.g. bash is not necessarily available. Most of the TIO wrappers can be pretty easily converted though

ChartZ Belatedly

@pxeger Are you going to add a dark mode?

2:29 PM

There is a dark mode - if you set your OS settings to prefer it, it will change automatically

I'm planning to add a manual toggle though

ChartZ Belatedly

That would explain why my computer shows it light mode and my phone dark mode

Also I've just broken Python entirely

maybe I should have tested things more before posting in chat

I just rashly assumed that the Docker python:3 image would include Python 3 in $PATH by default

The issue seems to be that it's not preserving any environment variables from when the Docker image is extracted (in this case $LD_LIBRARY_PATH I think). I now need to know how to do that...

ChartZ Belatedly

2:45 PM

Something interesting I've noticed: after the bug was fixed with the Best Of being in the side bar yesterday, the "Introducing OSP" post showed up under Hot Meta Posts at +5/6 with HN's answer being at around +8/9. It's currently at +11 (question) and +17 (answer)

That's a substantial increase over such a short period of time

it's gone up another +1 and +1 between when you sent that message and now :P

:)

looks like we'll be going ahead with new TNB room owners; nobody has disagreed so far which i pretty much expected lol, and I don't want to bother doorknob if he's busy

i'll probably put up the nominations post at UTC midnight

@Adám ah you mean ultra specifc

@Razetime Not really, just specifying how to use each colour, not just what each colour is.

2:53 PM

@Adám best I can find for the same thing

3:13 PM

@JoKing It's actually been proved in a Math.SE answer, although there's one step in the proof I don't understand.

Funnily enough, the part that a=x is done all at once in the very first line of the proof.

ChartZ Belatedly

It's kinda insane that, despite not posting since Aug 2019, Dennis has still gained 1375 rep since Jan 1st 2021

In fact, since his last post, he's gained +6000 rep, which is enough to get all privileges short of the 10k+ tools

@Razetime Right, but again, an specific mapping of a set of theme colours to specific uses, rather than an actual spec.

3

Q: Possible periods of input

Background: Take this input as an example: 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 3 1 3 If you look only at the first few digits, between 1 1 2 and 1 1 2 1 1 2 1, this input appears to consist of the pattern 1 1 2 repeating indefinitely. This would make its period 3, as there are 3 numbers in the pattern. Given only the...

code-golf counting

This, however, is promising.

Why is it called New Main Posts instead of New Main Questions?

3:26 PM

@Wezl Because posts on CGCC.SE aren't really questions, they're challenges

ChartZ Belatedly

Except for the odd tips question

Ok New Main Challenges

ChartZ Belatedly

So Posts is a good compromise

Redwolf Programs

3:37 PM

Agrobacterium is so interesting I want to make a KotH that somehow involves it

ChartZ Belatedly

3:52 PM

I've always wanted to run a koth, but I've just never had a good idea that's simple enough to turn into a good challenge :/

I still don't really understand how a KOTH works tbh

Redwolf Programs

You just write a controller that manages the game, then the bots interact with the controller in order to play some sort of game

ChartZ Belatedly

People submit bots. Those bots are typically functions that receive a number of arguments from a controller, usually relating to game data. They then send a response of some kind back to the controller who then moves the game forward based on those responses. Whichever bot does best wins

ok

Redwolf Programs

I wrote my first KotH and didn't realize I needed a controller, so that went well at first :p

Surprisingly it's one of my best challenges to date

3:55 PM

is kotH needed to be in one language?

Redwolf Programs

No, but I recommend it

why?

ChartZ Belatedly

One way of thinking about an example would be: you are playing a chess match against Bob. However, you and bob can't see the board, or interact with it. Instead, Alice tells each of you what the board looks like, and you tell Alice what move you want to do

Redwolf Programs

@Wasif Makes it easier to make the controller

You can just pass arguments to functions instead of having to go through the OS and all that

@RedwolfPrograms most kotH are in javascript, so I can't pariticipate that much

Unrelated String

3:56 PM

js isn't that hard to learn

ChartZ Belatedly

JS, Python and Java are the most popular Koth languages

Redwolf Programs

For any of my KotHs, I usually volunteer to translate submissions in Python or Java into JS

Unrelated String

i say as someone who has not learned js

@ChartZBelatedly Java????

Unrelated String

java is kind of a natural choice for it tbh

3:57 PM

@RedwolfPrograms does that mean I can write a horribly obfuscated python program and make you wade through it? lol

whenever I can, I like to have my controllers interact using STDIO using python's subprocess so as long as the submission can be run through a bash command i can control it

ChartZ Belatedly

@Wasif The site's highest voted KoTH was in Java

Unrelated String

kinda clean and safe, plus you can also use your choice of scala/kotlin/clojure/groovy/what have you

Redwolf Programs

I like JS because it's easy to make online controllers

ChartZ Belatedly

@pxeger The OP can just decide to not do it if they don't want to :P

3:58 PM

wanna see a kotH fighting in esolangs

ChartZ Belatedly

I should try and write a Jelly koth :P

@ChartZBelatedly Jelly+Python will be better IMO

Redwolf Programs

You often have to run thousands of games if there's any non-deterministic stuff allowed, so it's often faster to use one language as well

Most of my recent KotHs have banned randomness though

ChartZ Belatedly

Randomness can be fun tho

Redwolf Programs

But it's kind of annoying to strategize around

ChartZ Belatedly

4:00 PM

Sometimes the best approach is the most basic :P

See: EmoWolf

Redwolf Programs

It's either a trivial bot where randomness is most of the approach, or the randomness is just a small detail that could be replaced by something else

Original Original Original VI

Someone should find a way to run any language on the same VM so that there can be KotH's that are open to all languages :P

How is the Google Chrome Programming Language project going

there are tons of languages compiling to JS so it's a good choice

Redwolf Programs

Good, I'm still working on an answer in it

I think I've almost finished it

4:02 PM

I have been writing the python Implentation with Pyautogui+selenium

ChartZ Belatedly

Have we had a Koth where the entire point is that bots specifically target other bots' weaknesses?

Like, have a very simple game, but where the entire point is that each bot goes after a different one?

do you mean, strategically, or like trying to runtime-hack each other?

Redwolf Programs

@ChartZBelatedly I don't think so

That could be neat though

ChartZ Belatedly

Dibs :P

Redwolf Programs

(It's usually explicitly disallowed which could make it more fun)

ChartZ Belatedly

4:03 PM

@pxeger Either tbh :P

Redwolf Programs

I proposed a runtime type thing but it just got DVed in the sandbox

I want a KotH where bots have access to eachother's source code, which could encourage that

Redwolf Programs

So I already have dibs on it, at least for JS

@ChartZBelatedly Kamikaze - Bash, 10 bytes - kill -9 $$

Redwolf Programs

IIRC the goal of mine was to run a flag function as many times as possible, or inject your flag into another bot to get it to help you

It needed a lot of work though, maybe even a custom language/runtime

But I'm going to do it someday

ChartZ Belatedly

4:05 PM

I do kinda want to go back to the team aspect used here

We should encourage all kinds of programming puzzles alongside Code golf

Redwolf Programs

@ChartZBelatedly I was going to do a team battle royale KotH

I'm working on a tribe-based one now

(The Hunter Gatherer one)

Hunter Fatherer would be a whole different KotH lol

I'd be really interested to see another team based KotH, though

4:25 PM

Why, LetsEncrypt, must you go down for maintenance right when I need you?

"up to 30 minutes" my arse

Redwolf Programs

What's up with LetsEncrypt?

Is it the certs themselves or just registering them

"Planned API Database Maintenance"

"We're performing database maintenance which may result in some ACME clients receiving timeouts for up to a 30 minute period."

4:42 PM

the comments under this post aged kinda poorly, now that i think about it lol

5:10 PM

comments are so much more interesting than answers

i have so many pending sandbox posts and so little motivation to clean them up enough to post / actually remember what they're about since it's been so long, lol

Any feedback on this post?

(Originally for advent of golf for christmas, but unfortunately, four months later, we're still facing the same global issues)

ChartZ Belatedly

> Additionally, everyone will be standing and everyone occupies exactly 0 space.

Doesn't sound like a fun party :P

Depends on your definition of fun

ChartZ Belatedly

@hyper-neutrino Looks good, but I feel certain there's a closed form approach to it

I'm worried it will end up being too trivial after one person finds a closed form and it just becomes "implement an equation in every golfing language ever made"

ChartZ Belatedly

5:20 PM

Also, isn't it equivalent to the packing problem, with n circles of radius 1m?

uh, yeah sounds like the same thing

ChartZ Belatedly

I suggest the packing tag then :P

This is related, but not a dupe, and I don't see any other dupes, either on that tag or by searching packing is:q

oh, wasn't aware that was a tag :P i'll add it thanks

Redwolf Programs

Why isn't fixed point used very often? A 128 bit fixed point number type would be much more useful than a 64 bit (or 128 bit) floating point one IMO

Unrelated String

floating point can represent a wider range of values, can it not

so it's more broadly useful even if it's worse for some things

Redwolf Programs

5:31 PM

I'd say it's the other way around

Floating point is good if you need really tiny or really huge numbers

Unrelated String

also fixed point is a lot more straightforward to simulate with integers

Redwolf Programs

Fixed point is good if you need the same precision over a very wide range of numbers

I mean a 64 bit integer with a 64 bit floating point part is way more precision than most people will ever need, and you don't have to worry about 2 ** 53 == 2 ** 53 + 1

Unrelated String

if you know you're going to be working closely with huge integers then you probably want to just use integers
if you know you're going to be working closely with huge non-integers then yeah you probably do want fixed point if not some kind of bigfloat representation

...
I forgot JS doesn't have integers

Redwolf Programs

We have bigints

But they were added like a year ago and are only supported on some browsers

Unrelated String

classic

5:38 PM

is JS even a real language and not some practical joke someone decided to play on every web developer ever lol

4

Redwolf Programs

Both

Why does googling "Jelly corpus" bring up local grocery stores

that's what you get for naming it after food :D

Redwolf Programs

Ohh, there's a city in Texas called Corpus Christi and it's showing me grocery stores there :|

better than trying to look up stuff relating to ///

ChartZ Belatedly

6:15 PM

@RedwolfPrograms status-no-repro :P

Redwolf Programs

Wow, Jelly has a lot of two-byte operators that look like they should be one byte ones

Like intersection

Unrelated String

actual intersection doesn't really come up that often does it

like, as opposed to f

ChartZ Belatedly

Yeah, it has the "multiset" versions at 2 bytes, but pretty much all of them have 1 byte alternatives that don't quite work the same

Redwolf Programs

Oh, okay

Unrelated String

Jelly does have a few questionable allocations of single bytes

if you look at the latest conversation on JHT you'll note that [] are nearly useless

Original Original Original VI

6:21 PM

I like how Husk has builtins for just 1, 2, 3, and 4 element lists.

You rarely need more than that, honestly.

ChartZ Belatedly

I think I've used ọ exactly once, and the entire code was ọ2 :/

Unrelated String

yeah

Ẓ is the only prime builtin with a single byte and it's one of the less helpful ones

where's that SEDE query for special characters again

Original Original Original VI

Time to make a language called Marmalade

ChartZ Belatedly

@UnrelatedString data.stackexchange.com/codegolf/query/1386060/…

G would be better as 2 bytes, ° is very rarely used by itself, Ṙ is never used

I don't suppose there's any way to schedule a post to be posted at a specific time?

ChartZ Belatedly

6:28 PM

Don't think so, no

It'd be very open to spammers if there was

oh yeah that's true, lol

I was wondering if i could schedule the TNB room owners nominations for UTC midnight but a) i'll almost certainly be online to do it myself b) it really doesn't matter if it's a bit or even hours early or late

Redwolf Programs

@ChartZBelatedly Wait how?

ChartZ Belatedly

Just schedule a post to be posted every minute or so. You'd be banned pretty quickly, but you'd be very annoying

It just means you could automate spam-posting

Redwolf Programs

Just post something every minute or so

i mean, you'd have to set up a scheduled post for each one individually, wouldn't you?

you may as well just post something every minute for three minutes, which is probably how long it takes you to get banned :P

Redwolf Programs

6:31 PM

^

ChartZ Belatedly

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Guess I'm not good at spamming :P

What's the best way to check if a character is only contained within 2 delimiters with a regex? e.g. for H and "" delimiters: Habc, H"abHc" and H"H" would not match, but "Habc", "H" and abc"abcHdef"def would?

what should "H give?

i assume a fail

ChartZ Belatedly

Assume the delimiters will always be matched

oh okay

/[^"H]*("[^"]*"[^"H]*)*[^"H]*/

would something like that work?

ChartZ Belatedly

I think it would for that example, but I just realised what I'm trying to do is much more complicated :/

6:37 PM

oh :c rip

Original Original Original VI

^(?:([^H"]*[H"]){2})([^H"]+)(?:([H"][^H"]*){2})$?

Oh wait, that's almost the opposite

ChartZ Belatedly

For context, I'm trying to write a program which takes in an arbitrary regex and returns True for cases where the only time that regex is matched is within a Jelly string (“...[”»‘’])

does jelly have any way to escape string end characters

ChartZ Belatedly

Nope

if it has to be arbitrary regex that's... a lot more complicated rip

ChartZ Belatedly

6:42 PM

Well, "arbitrary". I'm just going to use it to look through which builtins/patterns appear more or less in Jelly programs

It'll never be so complicated as to use capturing groups for example

I think the better approach is probably to just use some normal code and add in some basic regex when necessary, rather than do it all in one regex :P

Redwolf Programs

6:55 PM

I need three downvotes on one of my questions, any volunteers?

does an un-upvote count? (I guess not, if it's a rep thing)

Redwolf Programs

No, I need downvotes specifically

ChartZ Belatedly

What's wrong with having a non-multiple of 10 rep?

Go suggest 2 tag wiki edits :P

Redwolf Programs

Ooh I'll just do that

Thanks!

KotH could use some updates

ChartZ Belatedly

No problem, puts me 2 closer to the Reviewer badge for Suggested Edits :P

6:59 PM

hmmmmmmmmmmmm is there any way to break the multiple of 10 without downvoting cuz downvoting just for spite is not exactly what votes are to be used for

ChartZ Belatedly

2 mins ago, by ChartZ Belatedly

Go suggest 2 tag wiki edits :P

Original Original Original VI

@hyper-neutrino Post some spam and get downvotes.

ChartZ Belatedly

So long as you have <20k rep, that gets you +2 per approved edit

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The Nineteenth Byte

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