The Nineteenth Byte

8:00 AM

(there aren't many viruses for Linux around – there are a few, but they're still really rare – but Linux antiviruses normally recognise and tell you about Windows viruses too)

Phoenix

@ais523 Judging by your other security behaviors I'd have expected for you to have like 10 different ones running simultaneously.

Mayube

Anti-malware software is similar to anti-bacterials in a lot of ways, which makes malware a lot like harmful bacteria. the more a given antimalware/bacterial is used, the less effective it becomes as malware/bacteria adapt around it. Difference is we can update anti-malware, we can't so easily "update" penicillin.

ais523

@Phoenix antiviruses aren't all that effective IME; the best defence is a good backup policy

Lembik

@ais523 what a good linux antivirus?

Mayube

we measure bases in base 10...

ais523

8:04 AM

however, I do have things like firewalls up constantly

Okx

@Mayube base 10 is so old, base 256 is the new thing

ais523

@Lembik not sure about "good"; ClamAV is decent for batch scans but it doesn't do continuous/on-access scanning

Okx

much golfier :D

Mayube

@Okx but 256 is a number in base 10

Lembik

@ais523 do you know how wide it's coverage is? I mean does it get signatures quickly?

Phoenix

8:04 AM

@ais523 Also the only FOSS one listed in the Ubuntu wiki on antiviruses

ais523

@Lembik daily, I think

it has a working signature autoupdater

Lembik

I would have thought the commercial antivirus companies would get them first

feersum

Has anyone here had a malware infection (that they are aware of)?

Okx

@Mayube Sorry, base   is the new thing :D

ais523

@feersum I've seen one on someone else's machine

Lembik

8:05 AM

@ais523 sorry I mean how provides the signatures?

ais523

but it was running Windows

@Lembik it has a daemon called freshclam that connects to the Internet and downloads them

feersum

@ais523 Me too, but I haven't had any myself.

Lembik

@ais523 right but someone must put them up on the Internet

Phoenix

@feersum My computer breaks to the point of reinstalling Windows too frequently for me to notice any infections.

I have no idea why

It's just unstable

Lembik

networkworld.com/article/2989137/linux/…

that's bad!

Mayube

8:07 AM

@feersum yes, because I let my common sense slip once

Phoenix

I reinstalled two weeks ago and it had corrupted files immediately, sfc /scannow was the very first thing I did.

They're not even the same corrupted dlls each time

Challenger5

Do you think somebody could make something that looks like the EICAR test file but is actually malicious?

ais523

let me look at the file

the main issue would be length, I think; you'd have to seriously golf your program to not be obviously much longer

Lembik

looks like clamav is no good sadly

Challenger5

Also, does anybody know what programming language this is?

feersum

8:09 AM

I don't know anything about this, but surely signatures are not based on length?

It wouldn't make sense for AV to be evadable by adding padding.

ais523

@Challenger5 I'm guessing it's a custom scripting language for a game

ASCII-only

@Challenger5 Looks like some kind of JS dialect :P

ais523

@feersum I'm assuming the question was "for a human", not "for an antivirus"

feersum

Heh, I assumed the opopsite.

@Challenger5 Looks like C (with implicit int parameters).

Phoenix

So, just bad C code.

The #include directives give it away.

feersum

8:12 AM

On closer inspection, it can't really be C though.

Challenger5

@feersum Too many backslashes. Also, it uses string literals in a case statement, which doesn't make sense with C.

ASCII-only

@Phoenix It isn't C at all, plus some JS dialects have include (although not include directives)

Phoenix

Hm

ais523

@Challenger5 according to this (PDF, page 14), there was a worm which managed to get itself to match the EICAR test file signature, so that people thought it was harmless

feersum

It looks a lot like C though.

Mayube

8:13 AM

at first I thought maybe D, but D uses import not #include

ais523

the signatures now require the file to be at most 128 bytes long to match

Phoenix

I mean, technically you could run anything through the C preprocessor.

ais523

@feersum most custom one-off languages look like C because managers have a misconception that that's what's easiest to use

Phoenix

What would you rather it be based on.

ASCII-only

Something like this maybe

Challenger5

8:15 AM

Having Googled it, it looks like it's related to Call of Duty.

ais523

I've had this issue in my own work, people saying "the language you're designing is too weird, why not just use C instead", and me having to counteract by pointing out that C is missing some features, and is very clunky for other things (e.g. function pointers)

Adám

Yay, we're officially having a golfathon at our world conference this year!

Challenger5

Lua.

ais523

lua doesn't normally look like that

Phoenix

@ais523 But why reinvent the wheel? Surely there's some language that covers your usecase.

ais523

8:16 AM

@Phoenix I work as a research compiler developer

ASCII-only

@Challenger5 ... This is definitely not lua

@ais523 research compiler developer?

ais523

that really raises the chance that there's no appropriate language in existence

Phoenix

@ais523 That's actually really cool, even though I have no idea what it means.

ais523

because my job is to take programming techniques that have never worked before (typically because they've only just been invented), and try to make them work in at least a "small demonstration" sense

ASCII-only

@ais523 No appropriate language?

feersum

8:17 AM

Yeah what? I refuse to believe that's a real job.

ASCII-only

VSL's goal is to be every language (eventually :P)

ais523

it's not typically called that, normally it's just treated as a special case of "researcher"

Challenger5

@ASCII-only I meant that if you're making a small scripting language for a game, you might want to make it similar to Lua.

Phoenix

@ASCII-only Except Python

Lembik

I am thinking of posing a complex number arithmietic/simd challenge.. please feel free to talk me out of it :)

ais523

8:18 AM

how do you define "simd" objectively?

for example, does an FPGA count?

Challenger5

@Lembik Don't do it. That's my argument.

Lembik

@Challenger5 good start :)

Phoenix

@ais523 So what programming paradigms have you invented?

ASCII-only

@Phoenix Not exactly, you'd be able to use a Python parser with VSL to allow you to write Python (not that it would be recommended :P)

@Challenger5 Well that isn't what most games/game engines derive from :P

ais523

@Phoenix I don't typically personally invent the paradigms (although I may have invented bounded intersection types)

Lembik

8:20 AM

which of the 2994 answers was given first ? codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/127147/…

I can't see how to tell

Phoenix

@ais523 I typed that into google and cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/pierce.pdf came up, does it seem at all relevant?

ASCII-only

@Lembik Sort by oldest maybe?

ais523

@Phoenix no, that's bounding the polymorphism, not the types itself

numbermaniac

2994 answers? There's only 7 there

feersum

I'll just have to console myself with the fact that I use spaces at work.

Challenger5

8:21 AM

So your job is to mess around with programming languages?
I envy you :P

Lembik

@ASCII-only I think that includes the updates though

@numbermaniac :)

ASCII-only

@Lembik Nope

Phoenix

@ais523 Is there any reading material on the subject?

ais523

@Phoenix the basic idea of bounded intersection typing is that if something is only evaluated finitely many times, and this can be determined at compile time, you can make an explicit list of each type it's evaluated with

Lembik

@ASCII-only oh right... but one of the updates to xnor's answer changed it from 2995 to 2994

ASCII-only

8:22 AM

@Challenger5 Possibly Squirrel?

Adám

@ais523 Whoa, that sounds interesting. What do you do?

Phoenix

Huh.

ais523

@Phoenix you might want to read my PhD thesis

Phoenix

Thanks!

Challenger5

So that's where "ais" came from. I knew it

feersum

8:23 AM

@ais523 I don't get it, how is that surprising? Isn't that something you have to know to compile a polymorphic function for an ML?

ais523

@Adám one of the languages I was involved in ended up in a PhD answer

ASCII-only

@Challenger5 BTW looks like it's written in Squirrel ( google.com/search?q=cs+go+modding+language&gws_rd=cr )

ais523

@feersum it isn't, polymorphic functions in (say) OCaml work quite differently

Challenger5

Nope. Squirrel functions are defined with function.

ais523

in the affine-typed setting, you're doing things like converting all variables to static variables rather than having a stack

ASCII-only

8:25 AM

@Challenger5 huh oops looked a lot like it though :P

Phoenix

> A thesis submitted to the University of Birmingham for the degree of
DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY

And not Computer Science?

Huh

ais523

the formatting of the front page of a PhD is very regimented

the qualification name in full is "doctor of philosophy, computer science"

Phoenix

It literally says "School of Computer Science" on the same page.

Ah

ais523

but you just write it as "PhD" after your name

whereas most abbreviations (like "MSc") have some reference to the subject matter, at least at Birmingham

Challenger5

Huh, reading the abstract reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier.

ais523

8:26 AM

(I don't have an MSc, incidentally; my Masters is in engineering, not science)

Phoenix

I've never actually read a thesis before

Seems fun

Challenger5

Can you have TC combinator calculus without functions like K that discard some of their arguments?

ais523

@Phoenix they can contain unfortunate amounts of filler because a) they tend to get nitpicked a lot, and b) different people have different ideas of what's mandatory in a thesis and you need to try to satisfy them all simultaneously

Alex K Chen

Who knows C and uses codeblocks here ?

ais523

@Challenger5 yes; that's known as "relevant typing" in type theory, and "reversible computing" in esolanging

and the normal programming technique is to have a "bitbucket" variable that stores unwanted data, as you can't get rid of it

Phoenix

8:28 AM

Yeah this is no mere essay.

ais523

I don't actually know what the simplest known set of reversible combinators is, that sounds like an idea for an esolang

Alex K Chen

How to run c.happycodings.com/games-and-graphics/code30.html code in codeblocks ?

Challenger5

I still don't see how that would work

Phoenix

@AlexKChen I fulfill neither requirement but I will still happily tell you your IDE choice is wrong.

Alex K Chen

I am a beginner - I mean very very beginner.

I followed the suggestion codewithc.com/how-to-include-graphics-h-in-codeblocks but nothing good happens.

Challenger5

8:30 AM

self.exit()

Phoenix

I used codeblocks when I tried learning C. Would not recommend.

ais523

@Challenger5 here's a simple example of the technique using brainfuck: Reversible Brainfuck

ASCII-only

@Challenger5 Seems like .gsc (relevant), looks like a CoD-specific scripting language, the interpreter is probably somewhere in the game

Alex K Chen

Now <alloc.h> is missing after all that.

feersum

@AlexKChen Download C::B for MS-DOS? :)

ais523

8:30 AM

for C, I think I'd seriously argue for not using an IDE at all while learning

@AlexKChen they can be more confusing than useful, and building C by hand is easy

Alex K Chen

@ais523 Why ?

@Phoenix Why ?

@ais523 What's "building C by hand" ?

Phoenix

It's ugly and confusingly laid out.

ais523

oh wow, looks like you can make a message a reply to a message that was posted after it

Phoenix

@AlexKChen Command line.

ais523

@AlexKChen C is a compiled language, so you need to build/compile a program to produce an executable that you can run, then run the executable

Alex K Chen

8:31 AM

@ais523 Yeah, figured it out long ago.

ASCII-only

@ais523 I did that like a year ago

ais523

by "by hand" I mean without using a separate program to automate the steps

Phoenix

gcc foo.c ; ./foo

I think

ais523

some languages are so hard to build that you practically need help from an IDE

but C is not one of them

@Phoenix the output there would be a.out by default; you either need -o foo or ./a.out at the end

Phoenix

@ais523 like which ones?

@ais523 Right, haven't done it in a while.

numbermaniac

8:33 AM

inb4 Malbolge

Alex K Chen

OK, so what should I do to run C from command line ?

Install something ?

ais523

you need a working C compiler installed

Shaggy

Have Snippets been disabled on PPCG?

Alex K Chen

I have Windows 8.1 64bit and Windows 10 6

ASCII-only

@Shaggy No

Alex K Chen

8:34 AM

@ais523 Gimme an example/link.

Phoenix

MSVC is prolly the easiest to set up on windows

ais523

the way I personally get a working C compiler on Windows is to install Strawberry Perl; not only is it a working Perl implementation, it comes with a fully-set-up command-line C compiler

Alex K Chen

@Phoenix Prolly ? Trolly is Molly ! Holly ...

Shaggy

@ASCII-only Strange, the editor button isn't showing up for me, nor is the keyboard shortcut working. All's well on SO, though.

ais523

@Phoenix I would not call MSVC easy to set up; it ended up breaking my Windows system so hard it needed a full reinstall from scratch

MSVC is also hard to use effectively until you're used to it

Phoenix

8:35 AM

@ais523 I just installed Visual Studio and nothing borked

ASCII-only

@ais523 >_> I do that with WSL

Alex K Chen

Errr...I'm a bit confused.

feersum

Installing MSVC does require vast reserves of patience.

ais523

@AlexKChen the thing about C is, it's a specification that's implemented differently by lots of different companies

ASCII-only

No it isn't

ais523

8:36 AM

rather than being a single implementation by a single vendor

Phoenix

MSVC is the compiler that comes with VS, right?

Shaggy

Turns out it was the userscript.

ASCII-only

Undefined behavior, sure, almost all follow the spec though

ais523

on Windows at the moment, there are three commonly used incompatible versions (MSVC-based, mingw-based, cygwin-based), together with lots of minor ones that nobody really cares about

ASCII-only

@Challenger5 Wait what

feersum

8:37 AM

@ASCII-only Do you know what an ABI is?

Phoenix

The best solution is to install Linux :P

ais523

@Phoenix MSVC used to be the name of the dialect of C that VS implements, I think (it was a standalone program once)

ASCII-only

@Phoenix WSL counts too right?

ais523

the compiler is called cl and is awkward to use directly

@ASCII-only oh, I haven't seriously used Windows since WSL was invented

Phoenix

@ASCII-only Given it compiles into linux binaries... nah.

ASCII-only

8:38 AM

@feersum Googles ABI yes now :P

ais523

and WSL isn't on any system I have

so I forgot it existed

feersum

The main thing is you have to run a magic batch file becfore you can use cl.

ASCII-only

@Phoenix wait what >_>

Phoenix

We might be talking about different WSLs

ais523

"windows subsystem for linux"

numbermaniac

8:38 AM

Do they really have to make it that complicated to install C

ASCII-only

@ais523 Isn't that .NET C

ais523

@ASCII-only no, .NET is something quite different

Phoenix

Ok, if I run sudo apt install gcc in WSL, the installed gcc will make linux binaries.

ais523

it's a library that assumes a managed environment with garbage collection

ASCII-only

@ais523 so Visual C != MSVC?

Phoenix

8:39 AM

Technically there isn't a visual C

ais523

Visual Studio != MSVC

Phoenix

It's just Visual C++

ais523

Microsoft Visual C++

Microsoft Visual C++ (often abbreviated to MSVC) is an integrated development environment (IDE) product from Microsoft for the C, C++, and C++/CLI programming languages. MSVC is proprietary software; it was originally a standalone product but later became a part of Visual Studio and made available in both trialware and freeware forms. It features tools for developing and debugging C++ code, especially code written for Windows API, DirectX and .NET Framework. Many applications require redistributable Visual C++ packages to function correctly. These packages are often installed independently ...

Phoenix

.NET C++ is called C++/CLI

MS thinks no need for C, given it's a subset of C++.

ais523

anyway, the biggest problem in programming for Windows is that the system libraries – which any program needs to do anything, because they're the way you communicate with the OS – don't ship with Windows, like they do on any sane OS

so you're meant to ship them with your executable, and they have a license letting you do that, which means you need complex installer programs to make things work

Windows does have an intended-for-internal-use-only system library that's on every system, but it's somewhat buggy and unmaintained

ASCII-only

8:41 AM

@ais523 :| Yes this is why I use WSL for most programming things

Phoenix

Isn't that what the Visual C++ Redistributable packages that keep accumulating on my system are for?

ASCII-only

Nothing works on windows

ais523

@Phoenix yes, precisely

those are installed by application installers because the application needs them to communicate with the OS and they aren't there by default

Phoenix

You don't need to ship that with your executable. Lots of people just say "Go to the website and install it yourself".

feersum

This is giving me terrible flashbacks to copying mscvrptrtexxxx.dll around on flash drives.

ais523

8:43 AM

@Phoenix that's because programming for Windows is sufficiently difficult that most people don't even try to follow Microsoft's guidelines

I did, once; it turns out that some of them contradict each other or flat-out don't make sense

Phoenix

\o

I shoudl have gone to sleep 3 hours ago

numbermaniac

"Go to the website and install it yourself" definitely would not work for programs intended for everyone rather than just programmers

ais523

@numbermaniac have you not tried to use Windows recently? that's more common among programs intended for everyone

because programs intended for programmers are more likely to be written by someone who actually knows what they're doing

feersum

I can't recall seeing any programs like this.

ais523

how do you normally install software on Windows?

(you personally, not in general)

I'm trying to figure out how you never came into contact with them :-D

feersum

8:47 AM

Uh... download an installer and run it?

numbermaniac

Yeah

Yes I have used Windows recently (unfortunately) but I don't recall having to go back and install other software

Alex K Chen

I gotta go. Bye all.

ais523

@feersum is this commercial software? they normally subcontract their installer creation to a commercial installer creator company, and those have features for automatically bundling dependencies

you often see the installers run recursively, it's fairly amusing

feersum

Applies to commercial or free software.

numbermaniac

Installers that install installers...omg

feersum

8:49 AM

Which kind has asked you to manually install dependencies?

numbermaniac

My CAS calculator does that; you have to install a program which installs the OS to the calculator

ais523

@feersum I have a folder full of installers that programs have asked to be manually installed (mostly DirectX- or .NET-related)

numbermaniac

Hmm - I do recall one video game asking me to install .NET 4 or something

But then it went ahead and did it for me

feersum

I do recall back in the day that every game would want to install its own version of DirectX

But it was almost always included.

Martin Ender

Yesterday, I discovered two features in Retina.

I think I really need to spend more time working on my language...

numbermaniac

8:52 AM

That moment when you discover new features in your own programming language

Martin Ender

I didn't say "new" :P

numbermaniac

well it's new to you isn't it?

ais523

@numbermaniac now you're making me want to implement Snowflake again

the idea is that as you run programs in it, the specification of the language changes and the programs edit themselves to conform to it

numbermaniac

Oh my

ais523

but I'm not sure if it works, nobody's tried to implement it nor program in it

numbermaniac

8:54 AM

Why would you do that to yourself

ais523

might be fun to have a version that links to PPCG and edits the programs there, including changing the score

numbermaniac

I just read the first paragraph of it on esolangs...welp

ais523

it is entirely possible I screwed something up :-D

Alex K Chen

`#include <stdio.h>

int main(){
int x=100;
int *y;
y = &x;
}

`

Why the error "No such file or directory" ?

I don't think there is any error in my code.

ASCII-only

@ais523 It would be always noncompeting :(

@ais523 Super bad idea

feersum

8:56 AM

@AlexKChen Badly configured compiler environment?

numbermaniac

@AlexKChen What command did you run to compile it?

Alex K Chen

I don't know - it was working perfectly few minutes ago.

@numbermaniac Codeblocks Build+Run

feersum

What compiler are you using?

Note that Codeblocks is not the compiler.

ASCII-only

In most IDEs you should be able to edit the run command

Alex K Chen

I don't know what the word "compiler" even mean. I use codeblocks+MinGW, and have a file named sandbox.c, and I just open it and code and build and run.

ASCII-only

8:58 AM

@MartinEnder rediscovered?

feersum

In an IDE you need to make a "project".

numbermaniac

A compiler is the program that turns your code into something the computer can actually execute

ASCII-only

@AlexKChen >_> <_< >_< <_>

feersum

Opening a stand-alone source file won't work.

Alex K Chen

@ASCII-only What's that ? Brainfuck ?

numbermaniac

8:59 AM

@AlexKChen No that was just a series of faces

ASCII-only

@AlexKChen No gist.github.com/schas002/03da208c75b79aa0125edc7935f143a7

numbermaniac

If you want to try an online compiler to get started, try repl.it/languages/c perhaps

Might make your life a little bit easier

Until you need to work with multiple files

ASCII-only

@numbermaniac Use TIO instead :P

numbermaniac

Oh right, of course what appears to be a series of faces is actually a programming language

Alex K Chen

Yeah, I use tio.

For sharing cocdes here:

The C Programming Language

General discussion about the C programming language, usage, sy...

Cause the RO told to do so, otherwise threatened to kick mute me :P.

numbermaniac

9:03 AM

The only thing I don't like about TIO is that the dark interface makes it look a little scary

Alex K Chen

Does people always come and go in this room in clumps ?

numbermaniac

And also a lot of the different drop down inputs seem to do the same thing so it's a bit confusing

@AlexKChen No, seems to be a coincidence

Alex K Chen

I was joking :P

Okx

@AlexKChen Yes, because they come in a helicopter all together since this chatroom is so far off

Alex K Chen

See ??

Within one minute five guys came

betseg

9:05 AM

Yes, actually, based on the time the Sun sets and rises.

Okx

@numbermaniac I can make a userscript for you to make TIO light

Alex K Chen

Six guys. Counting...

Okx

are you assuming their gender? :O

Martin Ender

@ASCII-only yeah, I guess.

Destructible Lemon

9:19 AM

@Okx this joke is so old that your mom is childhood friends with it

burn

numbermaniac

@Okx No need haha, but thanks for the offer :)

Mayube

The cougar (Puma concolor), also commonly known as the mountain lion, puma, panther, or catamount Woah they're all the same thing???

ASCII-only

@Mayube O_o

Okx

@DestructibleLemon wth is a mom these americans can't spell

Destructible Lemon

9:40 AM

@Okx I chose mom because "your mom" is a mostly american meme and "your mum" doesn't work quite right

regardless, burn

Lembik

hi..favor time

Destructible Lemon

what is it?

Mayube

@DestructibleLemon your mum doesn't work quite right

Destructible Lemon

yes that is what I said

Okx

@DestructibleLemon that is why you are resistant to burns in the uk

Destructible Lemon

9:49 AM

also I put a 100 rep bounty on my koth if any of you guys want to try and collect it

Mayube

@Okx given what happened in london I'm not sure we brits are any more flame retardant than the rest of the world

Destructible Lemon

seriously though the "assumed my gender" joke is like beating a dead horse except noone really ever said it unironically

wtf is going on with youtube

it's redirecting to the mobile version and it's annoying

Mayube

10:09 AM

finally updating WSL to 16.04

New Main Posts

0

Q: Let's learn some pH chemistry!

Andrew is a chemist, interested in the acidity of solutions. After months of research (Google is not his friend), he came up with the following table* regarding the human-readable level of acidity in terms of the pH (potential of Hydrogen): Denomination | pH range ...

Destructible Lemon

alright wtf duck duck go

why is the most relevant reference on lemon juice harry potter?

Mr. Xcoder

Lemon Juice Harry Potter?

Was it ever mentioned in te books?

I have read them all and the only drink I remember is Pumpkin Juice

Mayube

@Mr.Xcoder Butterbeer?

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube The only drink for students

Mayube

10:23 AM

@Mr.Xcoder You didn't say that

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube Yes, probably Butterbeer

betseg

i didnt read the books, but im pretty sure they drink water too.

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube That indicates my intention :))

Destructible Lemon

@Mr.Xcoder read the info in the image!

also anyone interested in spyfall?

Mr. Xcoder

@DestructibleLemon "YOUTUBE IS BROKEN" It works fine for me :)

Destructible Lemon

10:32 AM

are you on mobile?

Mr. Xcoder

@DestructibleLemon Was.

Listened about 4 mins ago :)

Adám

CMC: length of longest run of consecutive identical characters

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám I remember there was a challenge on Main a while ago on this, but I cannot find it..

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder We've had one for a specific character.

17

Q: Longest run of a character in a string

Your challenge: Write a function that takes a string s, a character c, and finds the length of the longest run of c in s. The length of the run will be l. Rules: If s is of length 0 or c is empty, l should be 0. If there are no instances of c in s, l should be 0. Standard loopholes and Standar...

code-golf string

Okx

@Adám 05AB1E, 3 bytes: γéθ (doesn't work on TIO)

New Meta Posts

10:44 AM

0

Q: Why am I getting a "4 total posts awaiting review" link on PPCG Meta?

Whenever I visit any page here on PPCG meta, to the left of the "review" link, is a small brown rectangle with a white number 4 on it, and hovering it says "4 total posts awaiting review". The link goes to https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/review, but there aren't any Meta reviews currently...

support meta reviewing

Leaky Nun

10:58 AM

how to use ataco userscripts from chrome?

Tom

@LeakyNun Install the tampermonkey extension

The C Programming Language

Transcript for