The Nineteenth Byte

Riker

21:05

which one?

I edited marcus's NMP yesterday

as he posted his own link to it

I didn't come up with the idea though, iirc the knob or martin started that

Anonymous

This is one of the worst ideas that GitHub has come up with

mınxomaτ

Also simultaneously launched with VSCode's teletype

Anonymous

It's like they can't make up their minds about where they want to sit on the order/chaos spectrum. They're one of the biggest sites for hosting Git repos, which are ordered and keep devs from interfering with each others. But at the same time, they're adding a mode to their flagship editor that allows multiple devs to edit the same code at the same time.

ATaco

Some people prefer to work that way

Anonymous

@ATaco Some people also pour the milk first in their cereal. That doesn't make them any less insane :P

Marcus Andrews

21:16

why :O

Eric Tressler

I have definitely seen more than 1 person using a single keyboard while people were hacking on television before.

Marcus Andrews

NCIS 2 IDIOTS 1 KEYBOARD

►

Anonymous

@MarcusAndrews Exactly. Now GitHub (and apparently Microsoft) wants that to be a feature.

Eric Tressler

There should be a mode where as many people as you like can edit at the same cursor position at the same time, and there's a majority vote for which key gets pressed.

2

Anonymous

@EricTressler Twitch Writes Code

Eric Tressler

21:20

Exactly

Anonymous

Except the end result would just be PHP

Marcus Andrews

always a goodie: youtube.com/watch?v=LhF_56SxrGk

Anonymous

Similar concept: github.com/tomekw/whatever

Eric Tressler

@MarcusAndrews I remember a movie (not sure what movie) back when I was in high school, where they had a photo of a guy holding a shopping bag.

They used software to rotate the image and look on the other side of the bag

Marcus Andrews

haha

DrMcMoylex

21:25

@MarcusAndrews Even better

Marcus Andrews

"resolution isn't very good"

Eric Tressler

Enemy of the state - Freeze,Rotate,Zoom,Focus,Enhance!

►

DrMcMoylex

Oh man. I knew CSI was bad about this kind of stuff, but I've never seen it until watching some clips right now

It's absolutely horrendous.

Oh no, the hacker is using an algorithm!

Literally, not even making that up

Marcus Andrews

You'd think with all that crazy camera tech they could just look right into the bag

Eric Tressler

They should just 3d print the bag and pull out that thing to see what it is

DrMcMoylex

21:32

GUI interface using visual basic to track the killers IP address CSI

►

Eric Tressler

@DrMcMoylex fine, you win

Marcus Andrews

histogram challenge: Given a list of n integer, each bound from 1 to 9 with repetition, create a histogram

e.g.
3
8 1 8

output
1:*
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:**
9:

DrMcMoylex

@MarcusAndrews V, 19 bytes:

Ó./&GA*
D8ïÎiÛ:
@

Try it online!

Marcus Andrews

128 python3

not sure if ruby has a defaultdict out of the box

114 using counter

103

caird coinheringaahing

21:48

@DrMcMoylex Could you link to an explanation? I'm thinking about learning V

DrMcMoylex

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sure! I'd be happy to help you learn it. :)

Do you know vim?

caird coinheringaahing

Although, I think DJMcMayhem may be a better teacher ;P

@DrMcMoylex No

DrMcMoylex

Ah. That'll make it a little bit harder haha

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, I tried reading the wiki, and got confused faster than with the Jelly wiki

DrMcMoylex

It is kinda confusing unfortunately

I don't really know how to lower the barrier for entry, but it requires a completely different way of thinking

caird coinheringaahing

21:51

What exactly is vim?

(may be a good place to start)

DrMcMoylex

A fancy text editor.

caird coinheringaahing

So how does one "know vim"?

DrMcMoylex

@cairdcoinheringaahing In an ordinary text-editor, pressing a key (for example, 'x') will insert an 'x'. In Vim, it will delete one character. This is because vim is modal (has modes), and in normal mode, every key is actually a command. Learning vim (or V) is about learning how these normal mode commands chain together to efficiently edit text.

So in vim, to insert an 'x' into the buffer, you'd instead type ix<esc>, which means "enter Insert mode, enter 'x', escape to normal mode"

caird coinheringaahing

@DrMcMoylex I'm guessing that's just be ix in V?

DrMcMoylex

Well, it could be just 'ix' in vim too. It depends on whether you want to 1) Insert more text after the 'x', or 2) return to normal mode for more normal commands

If you're only entering a single character, V can do éx, because é == <M-i>, it is an alternate version of 'i'

Marcus Andrews

21:56

is there a shorter way to print fibonacci numbers in either python or ruby

n=int(input())
a=[0,1]
for i in range(2,n):a+=[a[i-1]+a[i-2]]
print(*a[:n])

caird coinheringaahing

I'm guessing that some commands in vim use multiple characters to express, so you expanded to multibyte to convert that?

@MarcusAndrews There's a Fibonacci challenge, threat has a shorter one

dzaima

@MarcusAndrews APL, 35 33 bytes

caird coinheringaahing

@DrMcMoylex What is <M-i>?

DrMcMoylex

In vimspeak, or in Vspeak?

caird coinheringaahing

In regular key press speak? How do I insert that character (?)?

DrMcMoylex

21:58

In vimspeak, it means i with the alt key pressed down. In V, it means the verbose way of writing é

I'm not sure if that works outside of vim though

@Doorknob If you're around, could you unfreeze vim-golf?

@cairdcoinheringaahing If you're using V on TIO, you can just use <M-i> and add the -v flag for verbose mode. Which has the additional benefit of printing the non-verbose mode to STDERR

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah, there are lots of multiple character commands (for example, anything starting with 'g'), but most non-ASCII commands in V are additional commands I added that represent useful vim-idioms in less bytes

caird coinheringaahing

@DrMcMoylex I'm currently on mobile (didn't expect a full on lesson :P), but I'll install vim when I get to my computer and play around with it for a bit.

DrMcMoylex

For example, <M-r>foo<M-r> in V is qqfoo@qq@q in vim

caird coinheringaahing

I'm currently trying to tackle the V wiki again :P

@DrMcMoylex Is q "start recording into register <char that follows>"? I try to read most V/vim explanations on main.

DrMcMoylex

@cairdcoinheringaahing Exactly.

So qqfoo@qq@q means run foo recursively until an error happens, since @q calls @q

@cairdcoinheringaahing Explanation

@Doorknob Thanks!

Doorknob

22:15

@DrMcMoylex no problem!

Adám

22:28

@MarcusAndrews APL (Dyalog), 25 bytes: 1↓⎕D,':',↑'*'⍴¨⍨+⌿⎕∘.=⍳10

@dzaima ^

H.PWiz

@Adám I had 26 bytes Also, the range is only from 1 to 9

Adám

@H.PWiz Nice, you learned something in the lesson, eh?

H.PWiz

Yes, I thought I would use ⌸ :-)

Adám

@H.PWiz However, you need to format ⍺ separately, like this.

H.PWiz

Oh, fair.

Adám

22:40

@H.PWiz However, you can golf it a bit, like this for only 27 characters. Unfortunately, ⌸ is not part of the single-byte-per-character character set, and so it will cost you 6 bytes instead of 1. APL is not a golfing language :-(

H.PWiz

@Adám Can you link me to the character set/encoding please

Adám

@H.PWiz That being said, you used it correctly, and as intended. Good job!

43

A: When can APL characters be counted as 1 byte each?

GNU APL and ngn/apl use UTF-8, so use a byte counting tool. NARS2000 only uses UCS-2, so 2 bytes per character. IBM's APL2 is the only modern APL that natively supports APL EBCDIC, so 1 byte per character. Dyalog APL uses any Unicode format, or the classic Dyalog character set (Table 1 below).* ...

H.PWiz

Thanks

flawr

Can anyone recommend a Python(3) book? (For someone who already knows a little bit about computers & programming?)

flawr

23:07

I perfer having a physical book for learning languages.

I also had the experience that such books are usually more comprehensive than tutorials you might find online - there are however some very good resources online, but I though I'd ask here because I think we have many pythonians here. (pythoners? pythoneers?)

ATaco

I'm not sure about books personally, I prefer to learn a language by just diving head first into it and breaking it repeatedly until it works.

caird coinheringaahing

23:30

@flawr Do you want to learn the language or expand your knowledge of it?

flawr

I have never properly learned it, just used it more or less like Java, and I think I should start from scratch.

Riker

@flawr why py3?

flawr

@Riker I'm trying to get into the scipy/numpy universe

ATaco

CMP: In a practical programming language, what should a list plus anything be? Should their be unique behavoir if a list is added with a list?

Riker

@flawr ah

@ATaco list + list = big list with all elements

list + number|string = list with num/str appended

probably error with a dictionary, i.e. a {key:value} thing

list + var is likely error but it would be cool if you added either the current value or the permanent value

i.e. [1,2] + a = [1, 2, a]

where a always points to the value of a, but you can change a independently

Adám

23:41

@ATaco Why not auto-map [10,20,30]+[4,5,6] gives [14,25,36]?

Riker

imo that's not a good use for +, another operation would be good for that though

.+, like .*?

ATaco

It's not necessarily the case that two lists share a length.

Riker

julia supports what adam said for both + and .+, .* is element-multiplication and * is error

Adám

@Riker Wait, so + and .+ are the same?

Riker

apparently

may be a differnece that isn't obvious

ATaco

23:44

Actually, I probably should make the table concatenation operator .., because that's the concat operator...

Riker

that would work

Adám

I didn't get that. YOu should make it .. because it already is .. ‽

Riker

.. is string concat afaict

so .. should also be table concat

i.e what i suggested for +

+ would then do .+ like you suggested

@Adám yeah, looks like .+ is just the same as + for lists in julia

Adám

@ATaco JavaScript is not a practical programming language: [10,20,30]+[4,5,6] gives "10,20,304,5,6"

ATaco

(I don't plan to add a new operator .+ just for lists :P)

Should != Does

Riker

23:48

@Adám final answer: + and .+ use different algos, so .+ is faster in some/most cases

Adám

@ATaco So what does it currently concatenate, if not tables? (Is a table the same as a list?)

Riker

@Adám strings? iirc PHP is 'test'..'test'

Adám

@Riker But always give same result? Yuck.

Eric Tressler

@Adám I went to the Dyalog website and I can't tell if it's a fun company or an elaborate ruse

4

Riker

@Adám not always, if you have subarrays

ATaco

23:48

@Riker Php is 'test'.'test'

Riker

ah

Adám

@EricTressler Really? Well, it it the former. Yeah, our website could use a loving hand.

Riker

hire the goat to do design

Adám

@Riker Who? What?

ATaco

Javascript (And Funky's) default behavoir for concatenation is to stringify then concantenate the strings.

Riker

23:53

@Adám just a random suggestion, downgoat has done some nice web design/app design in teh past

Adám

@Riker Do you know of any examples? Also, our management want tight leash on whoever does the website, which is why it is currently done in-house with, well, interesting results, so we should probably get a local (as in in the same village) to do it.

Riker

cheddar.vihan.org iirc, and you might be able to see his app if you search the tnb transcript for "gitgoat"

@Adám "same village"? lol

wait, are you actually in the same village

ATaco

The goat is a pretty good designer. Can confirm.

They did a lot to help me design the homepage for a-ta.co

Adám

@Riker That does indeed look cool. We should totally have t=something like that. Our website is bloated, trying to make everything accessible, ending with nothing being so. Lots of stub pages and outdated info. Oh, and it keeps breaking every couple of months.

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