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12:01 AM
It's a shame I never got Akoya working.
Stupid pNaCl linker
I should ask on SO and use some of my miniscule rep to post a bounty
 
Question: are fatty acids a type of esters?
google only gives result on Fatty acid esters
 
@Downgoat Looking at Wikipedia seems to imply "no".
> esters are chemical compounds derived from an acid [emphasis mine]
 
:(
 
So... after reading some of the esolangs articles on the languages mentioned Martin's 2D polyglot did I realize that @quintopia on PPCG == quintopia on Esolangs who has been making esolangs for almost 15 years
6
I thought he was just a random hobo who found us through HNQ
 
12:18 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Conor O'BrienArray Pattern Matching Language popularity-contest array-manipulation language-design Everyone is (or should be) acquainted with the ways of the regular expression. At its core, a regex is made for matching strings. However, it's just matching something, right? Why not match arrays? That would ...

thoughts?
 
That was an eye opening delve through the history of esolangs, both from reading Martin's polyglot and quintopia's user page
I wonder if the persn who wrote Brainfuck knows about the horrible things that are being done to his language on here
 
@ConorO'Brien From the examples, does arithmetic progression need to be in any order, but fibonacci-esque need to be in array order?
 
@quartata he probably knows, and laughs about it each day
@trichoplax arithmetic progression is ordered. as is finonacci-esque
 
@ConorO'Brien Just realised I misread one of the examples... sorry!
 
no problem :)
 
12:25 AM
Martin's answer is really awesome, and I want some badges so I shared it on reddit
If I ride off of his success well enough, I could get some golds even. :D
 
I wrote 2 2D languages, but they're both 2016 ;_;
 
@ConorO'Brien I take it the task is to implement such a language, not just to design and describe it? I think that's obvious, but just wondering if it's worth stating explicitly
 
@trichoplax definitely. will edit in.
 
My only other thought is that this might be seen as the wrong kind of pop con, but I don't have an opinion either way at this point.
 
it seemed to work well with designing a 2d regex language
 
12:37 AM
Hopefully then. I guess getting as much feedback as possible before posting is best with a pop con, but the response on main doesn't always match the response in the sandbox, so to some extent it seems posting a pop con is just a gamble... Good luck!
 
thanks :D
maybe helka could give me some tips :P
 
@DJMcMayhem This is mildly terrifying. I'll stick with my jQuery, thank you very much!
 
@El'endiaStarman 0/10, not enough jquery
 
@El'endiaStarman terrifying, yes. j-word, no.
 
Hmmm... what's the best way to represent hexagonal coordinates? (For a challenge)
 
12:51 AM
give me an example?
 
Just think of a grid of nodes where each row has a 0.5 offset from the previous row, and each node borders 6 nodes
I'm not exactly sure what the challenge will be about, just brainstorming
 
best? x, y, z
 
Why z? It's only 2D
 
along one side until there's a straight line to the destination, then a second side, then a third side
oh wait nvm
idk about best then
I'd just pick two sides and use those as x and y
 
Let me try a more concrete example
 A B
C D E
 F G
If A is (1, 1), what is C?
 
1:00 AM
wait whereis origin
 
@DJMcMayhem you could use polar coordinates
 
@DJMcMayhem 1, 2
 
@ConorO'Brien as in (Distance from origin, number of clockwise steps from top left)?
 
@DJMcMayhem 0,1
 
1:03 AM
@PhiNotPi got back from dinner, and 75mb!
 
Sorry, hooves and iPad
 
@DJMcMayhem basically
 
B would be 2, 1
@ConorO'Brien nice challenge idea, i just don't know any pattern matching langs other than regex based ones
 
@ASCII-only take a look at the 2D pattern matching challenge
 
@Downgoat plz help npm weird
 
1:06 AM
@ASCII-only WAIT WAT HOOVES
:O :O :O YOU ARE FELLOW GOAT!! :D :D :D \o/ \o/
@Maltysen yea?
 
root@solar-sailor:~# npm
root@solar-sailor:~# npm --help
root@solar-sailor:~# npm ahdlashdalshd
root@solar-sailor:~# node
root@solar-sailor:~# node --help
root@solar-sailor:~# node aslidjasd
 
@ConorO'Brien Link?
 
@Maltysen what did you do
how did you isntall node/npm
 
i don't remember, but probably apt-get
 
43
Q: Language Design: 2-D Pattern Matching

PhiNotPiThis is Fortnightly Challenge #6. Theme: Language Design There's a chatroom for this challenge. Come and join us if you want to discuss ideas! And now for something completely different... This fortnight, we want to experiment with a new type of challenge. In this challenge, you will be de...

 
1:07 AM
apt-get --purge remove node nodejs (I think this should work)
 
do which npm
also do that for node and nodejs
 
/usr/local/bin/npm
apt-get install node gives already newest version
same with npm
 
reinstall
you borked something
 
install --reinstall
 
1:12 AM
well, running nodejs works now
but npm still says nothing
 
We need an IDE and compiler for english.
Issue warnings, -Wall flags, etc.
 
Not yet, we need to wait for Parsey McParserface to become smarter first
 
-Wall is the flag that grammar nazis use
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC We do. They're called "editors" and are human beings you have to pay.
 
@Maltysen 137.9kb here!
 
1:21 AM
@Maltysen and @PhiNotPi, what in the world are you talking about?
 
@El'endiaStarman storj.io
renting out our hard drives
 
it's awesome
@El'endiaStarman Hemingway is like a linter, Grammarly is a parser, and tools like FoxType and NLTK generate parse trees and do syntax highlighting
 
...now I'm back down to 99.9kb
 
@Maltysen Huh, interesting.
 
@PhiNotPi connection speed?
are you using dial-up?
 
1:22 AM
no, I'm not
 
...you are using it's precursor
and TCP 1.0 instead of TCP/IP
 
@PhiNotPi ?
 
that's how much cloud data has been put on my hard drive
 
did a contract fail?
 
@ConorO'Brien looks like most number matching chalenges just need reduce, some, or every
 
1:24 AM
not sure, I don't know what happened
 
@quartata have you played on pl_badwater_tilt?
if so, how did you survive
 
Psuedofriends: people you mutually like and talk often but do it because there's nobody better or 'cause your just too lazy to strike up a true freidnship
 
@ASCII-only oh?
 
@ConorO'Brien also idk if float support is helpful
(for golfing)
 
maybe
 
1:27 AM
but i'm assuming input will contain only integers
 
@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ I have. I prefer pl_badwater_rainy
 
I created a small script called netstatus. Here's the pitch:
 
Have you found a sever running either? I haven't seen one in a while
 
1:31 AM
netstatus just tells you if you're online enough. And connection latency (seconds delay, not mb/s), to tell you if it's really slow. Simple UI, colorful, and extra stats if you want 'em.
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC So basically MRTG?
 
@quartata no graph, one line that tells you delay, online or not, some colored symbols at the right to tell network status easily, and optionally average delay, connection volatility, and connection stability
conncection_volatility(){stdev(sliding_window(latency times))}
 
@ConorO'Brien do you mind helping me write documentations on writing functional code/what is functional programming/etc. for cheddar?
I have a whole functional section and to be honest I don't know half of the jargon I'll be talking about :P
 
@Downgoat I would wait until you have pattern matching
 
How should I deal with RNG in my KotH?
 
1:42 AM
@quartata oooooh is he gonna have that? fun
 
@quartata I am really behind on docs so I want to get these done before I write more new features
 
@Dwngoat All I'm saying is that there won't be a lot to write about
 
@DestructibleWatermelon massive sample sizes, AKA run the tournament many times
 
@DestructibleWatermelon Fixed seed
 
1:43 AM
@Downgoat feature request: change functional composition to * or @ or . or something
+ looks weird
 
@quartata .____.
there is a lot to write about
 
@quartata well for example, perhaps one side wants to have variable starting positions, and play from a selection of premade starter positions, as opposed to just random generating the starter position, but needs the RNG to pick each time
 
@Maltysen idk, conor suggested it and he knows his stuff about functional programming
 
@Downgoat Most of the fn lib is function-level
J != functional
 
@DestructibleWatermelon Do you mean RNG in the controller or RNG in the players?
 
1:46 AM
I'm sure the little blurb I wrote in cheddar docs about what functional programming is completely wrong
 
in the players
 
i am scared to publish so i dont look liek idiot
 
@Downgoat can I see?
 
@Downgoat is there partial application?
 
@Maltysen yes (to both)
 
1:47 AM
cool
what's the syntax?
 
Yes. fn.curry
 
partial applicaiton: f & b curry: +f (i think)
bonding and composition is in docs ಠ_ಠ
 
what happens when there are three params?
 
cheddar room?
 
@Downgoat online repl, functions not working
"Error: Chedz not defined"
actually nothing works
everything gives that error
 
1:50 AM
online repl is borked
@ConorO'Brien ok
@Quill pls halp browserify is borked ;______;
I feel like 99% of my pings to Quill start with "halp pls <js lib> is borked ;_;"
 
Anonymous
I'm going to work at Google!
31
 
@Mego nice!
 
@Mego Congratulations! :D
That makes two PPCGers that work at Google! :P
 
Anonymous
Unfortunately, they stopped hiring software engineers in Austin, so I get to move to Seattle!
 
@Mego Wooooot!
 
Anonymous
1:52 AM
@El'endiaStarman Who is the other one?
 
@Mego :O Congrats!!! :D \o/
 
Anonymous
Also thanks guys :)
 
@Mego @NathanMerrill <--
 
Oh wait. Seattle?
 
@Mego gonna be meeting with alex?
 
1:53 AM
@Mego That's awesome, congrats!
 
Anonymous
@El'endiaStarman I thought he got a job offer but declined it
 
Uh oh watch out for Alex
 
@Maltysen they are both birds so i guess seattle is now bird hangout place :P
 
Anonymous
@Maltysen Yeah I'm gonna have to talk to him to figure out what the hell a Seattle is
 
1:56 AM
Ever feel like textbook publishers just make new versions for no reason? Well this C++ book is very explicit about it: "The fifth edition presents the same programming philosophy as the fourth edition. For instructors, you can teach the same course, presenting the same topics in the same order with no changes in the material covered or chapters assigned."
 
@PhiNotPi they make new versions so they can make more money from gullible school districts i guess
(im calling 99% of school districts gullible apparently)
 
also errata and to make it look newer so people will buy it
 
Or milk poor students dry becuse professors force them to use the new version
 
I once read an article that claimed that the real reason that textbooks come out with new editions so often is because of bookstores reselling them, which cuts out a huge portion of the textbook publisher's (and writers') income.
 
@PhiNotPi try reloading it (ctrl-R since its electron). the amount of space used does update often
 
1:58 AM
help i need symbols for length and index, dollar, backslash and operators are taken
 
@Maltysen cant tell if in context of a digital textbook or something esle
 
@Downgoat no, storj again
also npm is stupid
it doesn't work
 
;_; y u sai dis
npm > pip
@Maltysen have you reinstalled it completely yet
 
did you explicitly reinstall npm
 
@Downgoat npm consumes like a gig of memory. Pip is far lighter
 
2:00 AM
mainly because python and node styles are really different
 
node focuses on modularity, meaning most modules have a lot of dependencies, so npm needs to traverse the dependency tree
 
^
 
@Downgoat f(x)=x?
 
@quartata yeah though that's basically because of how it works
you dont want to know how it works
@Maltysen brb putting more greek letters
 
2:03 AM
functionized?
"customized" -> "accustomed"
 
Implying Python doesn't focus on modularity (quote: namespaces are one honking great idea)? I suspect it's more a problem with its implementation
@Downgoat Can you post the blurb in chat? Gitbook scrolling doesn't seem to work on mobile
 
well, python definitely doesn't recommend like 20 dependencies per module though
 
@ASCII-only but it has builtin dependancy handling just like npm
 
I don't consider a philosophy that creates leftpad a good thing
 
^
 
2:05 AM
Is there a package manager that uses version history (i.e. git) to deliver dependencies that definitely work with your requested package?
 
though JS ES8 Added leftPad function so we'll be good in ~3 years
@El'endiaStarman yes, npm
 
@El'endiaStarman homebrew uses git
 
Wot ES8?
 
yeah, but way less dependencies means its package manager usually uses way less ram for dependency tree traversal because smaller deoendency trees
 
2:06 AM
@El'endiaStarman pip lets you specify a certain version of a dependency
 
@Downgoat why?
 
(that means weird stashing, merging, fatal errors, but no matter how many git errors, it always works somehow)
 
@Maltysen is this better? ^^^
 
@Downgoat Greek letters all day
 
2:06 AM
@Downgoat just do like f(x) = ...
 
Ah, it seems my idea was (of course) already thought of... :P
@Maltysen I'd actually suggest f(x) = x^2 + x + 1. Or x**2, whichever it is in Cheddar.
 
halp anyone i already used all three ascii brackets, do i use double brackets now?
 
@Maltysen I could do that or i could use the above and look like mathematical genius
 
*for a language
 
@Downgoat where even is that from?
@ASCII-only you could reuse some of them?
 
2:08 AM
regex-inspired, so not really
 
@ASCII-only Whoa what is it
 
@Maltysen solution to life universe and everything theory
 
What should I do in the case of infinite loops in my Koth? I know I can just make them draw, but that seems a bit poor, because there is no way to make sure you don't repeat moves
 
@DestructibleWatermelon time limit
 
> I know I can just make them draw, but that seems a bit poor, because there is no way to make sure you don't repeat moves
also hi crazydythou
 
2:10 AM
@Mego :D nice! maybe you could teach us levitation on day 256?
 
@El'endiaStarman I don't actually work at google. I got accepted, but didn't end up taking it
 
jeez gitbook is so mobile unfriendly
 
@NathanMerrill Oh, I must have missed that. @Mego, you were right.
 
soundcloud.com/epicmountain/move-the-world?in=epicmountain/sets/…, skip to 1:00 - that music you've always heard in commericals
 
@quartata o_O really?
I want to switch to a better doc tool
 
2:11 AM
It has so much special CSS i literally can't scroll down
Just use Github Wikis or roll your own or something
 
is there a way to find rooms you were recently in?
 
but I can't find any well-supported one except sphinx
@quartata ugh rolling my own is difficult
 
I was in it like 4 or 5 hours ago, but I have no idea why I'm no longer in it
 
why not readthedocs
 
19 secs ago, by Downgoat
but I can't find any well-supported one except sphinx
 
2:12 AM
nm, found it :)
\
 
RST is kidna difficult to use
 
@NathanMerrill Ctrl+H?
 
I tried using it for teacsript
 
@Downgoat that's what pyth uses, so i would offer my help with it, except I forgot how to use it
 
gitbooks also has discussions which are cool
 
2:14 AM
Two modes of programmers:

I AM GOD!! | i have no idea wat i'm doing
 
you forgot the third: "I AM GOLFER"
 
@ConorO'Brien You mean "IM GLFR"
Cause you have to golf it down, y'know
 
I may be a golfer, but I am first and foremost a grammarian ಠ_ಠ
 
Just use your BS skills of English
 
2:16 AM
@Downgoat first of all, its not functionized
functional maybe
 
Remember analytical essays
And BS your whole way through everything
 
@Maltysen no, it's functionized.
 
:D i am right
 
that's the name we decided for them
 
@ConorO'Brien really?
 
2:16 AM
3 + 4 <-- operator (+)(3,4) <-- functionized operator
afaict we're the first to use it
 
@ConorO'Brien oh, you made it up
 
What's the use for functionized operators?
(+)(3,4)
 
@Qwerp-Derp functional programming!
 
@Qwerp-Derp like everything functional programming
 
It's not useful for golfing, it's not useful for writing code (IMO)
 
2:17 AM
see the docs for examples
 
@ConorO'Brien haskell and julia have those
 
@Qwerp-Derp let sumOfArray = array / (+)
 
@Maltysen well, Julia's are also functions.
 
let me see you do that with normal operators
 
@Downgoat Ah
Wait you can do that?
 
2:18 AM
@Mego That's so awesome, congrats!
 
Whoa kule
 
yes, cheddar is amazing
 
^ :D
 
And tell Alex I said hi. :P
 
@Downgoat fold looks backwards?
 
2:18 AM
?
 
@Maltysen you mean, it should be \?
 
Cheddar is beautiful
 
@ConorO'Brien no, I mean (+) / array
 
it should be read "reduce array over (+)", saying "reduce (+) over array" seems backwards to me (idk im not functional goat)
 
like J
 
2:19 AM
ah
well, that would be misleading, because / would be a binary operator instead of an adverb
 
wat is adverb ._.
 
thingy that modifies verb
they don't exist in cheddar
e.g. / is the insert adverb that modifies the verb +
 
@Downgoat sum = list~>*\add
 
wat adverbs exist in programming languages!?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC yup. In J and APL at least.
 
2:21 AM
So like make_new_thread() quickly please
 
+ - verb
/ - adverb
@ - conjunction
1 - noun
 
are they like decorators?
 
@ConorO'Brien well you could still do / as binary operator and have it take a function as first arg
 
how do they work?
you can overload the comma in c++
 
2:22 AM
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC verbs operate on nouns and yield a noun. adverbs modify a single verb and yield a verb. conjunctions modify two parts (noun or verb) and yield a verb. nouns are data.
 
:O I got 100 WPM on typing test
 
nice!
 
@ConorO'Brien So adverbs = first-class function/decorators (decorators are functions that modify functions), but I don't get conjuctions
waiiit what if make an english-ish language with these ideas?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC infix functional composition is a conjunction
 
examples, please
google isn't helping
 
2:25 AM
compose(f, g) = (...args) => f(g(...args))
 
but what about combing verbs and nouns?
 
partial application like double = partial(*, 3)
 
@ConorO'Brien brb making tnb command
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC 2&* is doubling; it uses the conjunction & to bond 2 to the LHS of *, yielding a monadic verb that takes the RHS as its sole argument
@Downgoat :D please do
 
@ConorO'Brien how does cheddar do with 3 params
 
2:27 AM
@ConorO'Brien wtf no understand
halp mayday mayday mayday
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC read J primer, it's ag ood read
 
mode 2 activated
 
cheddar> (2&(*))
< Instance of "Function" >
cheddar> (2&(*))(2)
4
cheddar> (2&(*))(2,3)
4
cheddar> (2&(*))(2,3,4)
4
cheddar> (2&(*))(2,3,4,5)
4
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC lmao, I am glad I am not only one confused by functional jargon :P
 
@ConorO'Brien and extra params are discarded like in js?
 
2:29 AM
cheddar> let k = (a,b,c)->a + b + c
cheddar> k(3, 4, 5)
12
cheddar> (3&k)
< Instance of "Function" >
cheddar> (3&k)(4)
Runtime Error: Missing argument for c
cheddar> (3&k)(4, 5)
12
 
@ConorO'Brien got it
 
@Maltysen yeah basically.
 
and what if you wanna skip one in the middle?
 
@Maltysen use named params or partial application with nil
 
@Downgoat alias tnb="yes ಠ_ಠ"
 
2:30 AM
in python, people were thinking of introducing a SKIP_THIS_PARAM special value, but decided against it
 
cheddar> let f = (x, y, z) -> x + y * z
cheddar> f(2, 3, 4)
14
cheddar> 2&f&4
< Instance of "Function" >
cheddar> (2&f&4)(3)
14
 
@ConorO'Brien hai i am goat bleeeeet
 
@Downgoat hai I am dragon rawr
 
Composition in Pytek can be done with a chain: 2->\f
 
@ConorO'Brien oh i see
 
2:32 AM
alias tnb="read;echo ಠ_ಠ"
 
cool
 
thanks :D
now I must depart for bed
 
@ConorO'Brien bai .o/
 
(2,4->\f)(3)
 
@quartata but how does that know to skip?
 
2:33 AM
?
 
what if I want to do f(2, 3, 4) but don't know 3 beforehand
 
@ConorO'Brien ah, the mysterious and mystical land of Bed.
 
I learned enough bash to make a simplified TNB simulator
alias tnb="while [ 0 ];do read;echo "ಠ_ಠ";done"
 
I can't envision you ever wanting to do that.
but
 
Technically, The Unity of Lands of The Bed and The Bedsheets.
 
2:34 AM
4 mins ago, by Maltysen
in python, people were thinking of introducing a SKIP_THIS_PARAM special value, but decided against it
so you just have to use lambda, but that was a thing for a while
 
why use SKIP THIS APRAM?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC well it was named something better :P
don't remember what tho
 
I mean what's the need for it?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC when you do partial application and need to skip a value
 
2:37 AM
like partial(f, 1, SKIP_THIS_PARAM, 3)(2)
 
2:53 AM
Should take this into the other room; @El'endiaStarman whisk us away with diamond powers?
along with these messages
 
what symbols should I use for pieces?
 
@quartata beam me up, scotty!
 
@ for players
 
The rest depends
 
2:55 AM
@ASCII-only Halp how does your grammar thingo work
I don't understand
I need docs plz
 

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