The Nineteenth Byte - 2015-09-27

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12:02 AM

0

Q: On golfing suggestions

These questions involve the practice of commenting on another user's code-golf answers to suggest a shortening of the code. Which of these are polite? Which are best practices? Commenting on an answer to indicate a shorter solution in the same language ...if the shorter answer is one's own (...

discussion code-golf answers

12:56 AM

I passed 9,200 rep today!

Nice work!

El'endia Starman

I passed 600 rep yesterday! Or was it two days ago?

I passed 1,700 yesterday :)

Um, does anyone know if this is a valid edit?

El'endia Starman

@ETHproductions Looks fine to me. "curl" indeed probably ought to be lowercase and he/she took out redundant spaces.

Alright, I'll accept it then

1:02 AM

Apparently I'm top 4% this week or something.

Whatever that means

I'm top 3% this quarter

El'endia Starman

Top 8% this month here.

@quartata That means you scored more rep than 96% of the other active users this week.

Oooh

Click on that text and you can see just where you are :)

stackexchange.com/leagues/88/week/codegolf/2015-09-20/…

1:05 AM

Niiicceee

I've only been here for a week and already I'm farming rep correctly I mean uh people like my posts

It's called "grinding" ;)

Calvin's Hobbies

Elementary Cellular Automaton Simulator - Minecraft Tutorial

3

Geez, you can do anything with redstone

And mods

Calvin's Hobbies

@PhiNotPi your music is in a short scene in there ^

@ETHproductions I didn't use any mods

I heard someone made a fully playable Sonic level in (possibly vanilla) MC

1:08 AM

confirmed: mostly mods

@Calvin Yeah, I know, but not everything is possible with JUST redstone

Whatever happened to this cool challenge:

-7

Q: A Perplexing Puzzle

The Challenge Create a program or function that takes no input, and outputs (or returns): I'm a programming paradox — no I'm not. Without using a character twice in any string, or digit twice in any integer. Rules You may not use any character twice within a string. For example, the word...

code-golf restricted-source

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies How much time did it take you to build this?!

Calvin's Hobbies

@El'endiaStarman If you mean to design the modules, not all that long, it's fairly straightforward redstone. I used mcedit to make the large grid of course since it just involves cloning the same thing over and over.

Oh geez, I just got JS to throw an UnknownError. Must've done something really evil.

El'endia Starman

lolz

1:20 AM

All I did was open about:blank in Firefox, opened the console, and entered for(a in this)console.log(a+', '+this[a]);

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies Ah, right, mcedit.

On a side note, why does an infinite while loop crash the browser, unlike other methods of recursion, which cause the "Unresponsive script" window to pop up?

Calvin's Hobbies

was does?

@Calvin'sHobbies I think you did a pretty good job of fitting the music into your video.

Stupid auto-incorrect of my brain

That's what happens when I have another thought while I'm eating

typing*

1:32 AM

Did you ever manually debugged using actual printed hexdumps from executables? It's surprisingly fun :)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

1:55 AM

Hi guys. I working on a king-of-the-hill question. It is going to be one, big round of Standoff. here, version 2. Does that sound cool?

2:08 AM

Pro-tip: If (God forbid!) you get bored while on PPCG, find some old code-golf answers of yours and improve them.

El'endia Starman

@ETHproductions I can't really do that very much... :P

Don't worry, once you spend a month or two on the site and gain enough experience, you'll find new ways to golf your old posts. :)

3:00 AM

Productive day: I built a Python interpreter for SMBF. I modeled it after the original Ruby interpreter. I learned a lot about OOP in Python during the process.

On a related note, does anyone know if there's an easy way to use import builtins in a way that works in BOTH Python 2 and 3?

Productive day: I'm working on a new esolang of mine, in Rust. I learned a ton about how Rust works today. :D

Nice

I'm trying to make the interpreter work in both Python 2 and 3, with the same code.

so I used from __future__ import print_function

But I couldn't find a solution that would let me use chr() in both versions with the same functionality

In Python 3, chr combines the functionality of Python 2's unichr and chr.

Which one do you want?

Python 3's functionality, backported to Python 2.

But also able to run in Python 3.

Then chr = unichr should be fine

3:07 AM

That's not defined in Python 3. It would break

Rolls eyes

I can't use import builtins, because the module was renamed to that in Python 3. In Python 2, it was import __builtin__. But I can't find an import statement that actually works for both.

Why not use a try/except?

Should I just use "%c"%c?

That's a valid practice (the try/except)

3:09 AM

version = round(8/3) :P

3

Hmm

@feersum haha :D

So either try/except, then pass if version 3. Or check the version. Or just use string formatting to char. Got it. lol

Of course, if 3 / 2 != 1: # python 3 also works

@Doorknob Or if 3/2==1 #Python 2

Ok. Thanks.

The Ruby interpreter just used the Ruby equivalent of Python's return "%c"%c, but that looked unnecessary in Python.

3:14 AM

Best practice is probably try/except, IMO, but I also liked Doorknob's suggestion lol

Why do you even need unicode for brainfuck?

chr in Python 3 behaves identically to Python 2 it seems, if given a number less than 256

I don't right now, but I want to add the option later to use a compiler flag to switch to an unbounded cell

Non-wrapping cell

So my previous suggestion chr = unichr would not actually make them identical.

Why?

chr(65) for example, would give u'A' in Python 2, but 'A' in Python 3, if you did that.

3:18 AM

@Calvin'sHobbies That's crazy!

It probably wouldn't break anything.

@feersum Depends... is u'A' == 'A'?

It is

Yeah, it wouldn't break anything then

I don't know how they implement the == operator there, but there are some obscure things you could do that would work differently.

Well, I'll probably just use chr as-is at the moment. I'd have to change a bunch of other things if I really wanted to add that compiler flag.

Especially since my Tape class extends bytearray

And if I was using non-wrapping cells, that wouldn't work.

I did think of a cool way to modify BF, just now. [+] should be distinct from [-], so make it such that instead of wrapping, it stops at 255, then make it so loops will quit on either 0 or 255...

That'd be pretty cool.

4:04 AM

libraryofbabel.info

This is crazy...

@ZachGates I think it's a collection of pyth and cjam programs.

go to this hexagonal room:

@feersum pastebin.com/Ec9r1Rcn

@feersum wall 2, shelf 2, volume 15, page 3

Yeah, looks like Pyth.

Humor me, and actually go to that page

I don't know how to do that

I only clicked the "random" button

4:14 AM

I'm working on a new esolang, in Rust this time, if anyone's interested (implementation's not even close to done yet but the docs are sort of comprehensive)

@feersum Go to the browse page

El'endia Starman

@ZachGates I'm guessing you saw Vsauce's latest video?

Of course! @El'endiaStarman

My SMBF Interpreter is now available for use!

I don't have a GitHub acct. Maybe I'll make one later. But meh.

So it's on Ideone. If you want to download it for proper use with the command line, you'll need to comment the sample data lines and un-comment the first four lines that parse args, in main() function.

Time to relax now.

Let me know if you find a bug

@Calvin'sHobbies Pretty cool. Did you post this because you saw my question about Elementary Cellular Automata in the Sandbox?

1 hour later…

5:34 AM

Everyone disappeared

Calvin's Hobbies

5:47 AM

@mbomb007 I posted it because I had just uploaded the video

@Calvin'sHobbies It's a really cool video.

Does anyone know where I can go to get help with first and follow sets for a grammar? My professor assigned homework but didn't teach us the topic...

Consult the textbook?

It's not in the textbook; we were specifically told that it wasn't in the textbook

Hm. Uh... Wikipedia? :/

jambe.co.nz/UNI/FirstAndFollowSets.html

5:58 AM

I've been walking through wikipedia's definition of a first set, and I am very confused because I seem to have a circular definition.

The English SE?

@AlexA. Yes I found that.

cs.uaf.edu/~cs331/notes/FirstFollow.pdf

@ZachGates Not that kind of grammar

Oh

people.cs.pitt.edu/~jmisurda/teaching/cs1622/handouts/…

6:00 AM

Ugh I wish I could complain about this somewhere... but my university has no recognizable complaint system.

In formal language theory, a grammar (when the context is not given, often called a formal grammar for clarity) is a set of production rules for strings in a formal language. The rules describe how to form strings from the language's alphabet that are valid according to the language's syntax. A grammar does not describe the meaning of the strings or what can be done with them in whatever context—only their form. Formal language theory, the discipline which studies formal grammars and languages, is a branch of applied mathematics. Its applications are found in theoretical computer science, theoretical...

That kind of grammar ^

Oh

I guess the really big question I have is if we have something like <A> ::= <A>'x'|'a', then what is First(<A>)? The definitions I've looked at say I need to go look at First(<A>) to find First(<A>)...

My intuition says that First(<A>) = {'a'}, but I don't like relying on intuition when my grade is on the line.

Do you think anyone would fund a project for me to build an underground bunker and document it on YouTube? (on gofundme or kickstarter?)

I guess.

6:05 AM

My gut says no but my head reminds me that people funded a guy who wanted to make potato salad...

@Justin I wish I had any help to offer but the best I can do is to say that trusting your intuition is not such a bad option for smart folks such as yourself.

Is it worth the time to make the page?

Would you actually build an underground bunker? If so, dare I ask, why?

Zombies of course. That's why everyone I know of has even talked about underground bunkers.

Of course I would build it

And for fun/experiementation

@AlexA. I think I figured it out. I'm not supposed to go depth first, but breadth first, and terminate the algorithm when nothing changes. Thanks for the help.

6:11 AM

Haha I would say "you're welcome," but I think that's only supposed to be used in situations where one actually provided help. I did no such thing.

Well, I felt like you helped. And you complimented me...

:P

@minxomat Do you mind if I use your screen name in a new challenge?

@ZachGates No problem.

Thanks

I may not even use it /: can't seem to find a phonetical complement

6:17 AM

I guess you mean "phonetic". But I don't either

@MartinBüttner No harm in trying.

@ZachGates It seems fairly obviously inspired by Borges' La biblioteca de Babel.

@minxomat "phonetical" is a word, too

There are phonetical mutations, but only phonetic complements.

^

Oh :/

I think "oh" is my new catchphrase

6:21 AM

"Oh" isn't a phrase though

Oh

In everyday speech, a phrase may be any group of words, often carrying a special idiomatic meaning; in this sense it is roughly synonymous with expression. In linguistic analysis, a phrase is a group of words (or possibly a single word) that functions as a constituent in the syntax of a sentence—a single unit within a grammatical hierarchy. A phrase appears within a clause, although it is also possible for a phrase to be a clause or to contain a clause within it. == Common and technical useEdit == There is a difference between the common use of the term phrase and its technical use in linguistics...

@AlexA. Lies

> possibly a single word

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Capture on Only Pawns Chessboard You should write a program or function which receives a string representing a chessboard with only pawns as input and outputs or returns if any capture is possible. Input is in a FEN-like notation describing positions of white and black pawns with no other piece...

Yay, a chess challenge..

Does the fact that my most recent sandbox post has no upvotes mean that I shouldn't post it? Should I attempt a different challenge since this one is simple? Or does someone have suggestions?

It's more likely that no one took the time to read into your post yet.

6:30 AM

^

The formatting is a bit confusing to be honest. I'd scroll over it :P

@minxomat What about the formatting is confusing? It's been quite a long time since I've written a challenge for this site, so I'm not sure how to write good challenges anymore.

This is what I'd consider a pretty good example. Short and concise instructions, every relevant section has it's own header etc.

6:56 AM

@minxomat What do you think about it now?

Better.

Any other suggestions?

Nope.

Any ideas on what to name the tag? interface-coding is my current idea.

8:03 AM

Why creating a new tag? I do not think there will be many challenges with this tag.

@Justin Many of my posted challenges have had no upvotes

It doesn't mean that it's an unpostable challenge

But you know, for @BetaDecay zero upvotes is about the same as 15 upvotes for everyone else.

@flawr Of course. I'm a very popular person :D

Martin Büttner

9:13 AM

@PeterTaylor @feersum cs.stackexchange.com/q/47603/25735

2

in the paragraph "describes the board" shouldn't you consider to use an image?

Hopefully someone will answer Martin's question and we'll learn whether or not Foo is TC :D

I've got the outline for my translator almost done

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 Heh, I actually started thinking about this because of another language as well... (Mornington Crescent, specifically)

Does anyone know an interpreter with an easy option for dumping the numbers on the tape (my translation does not do I/O)

Martin Büttner

9:27 AM

do you mean just for testing purposes so you can check what the tape looks like?

yes, after the program finishes

Which language is this for?

BF

Martin Büttner

@feersum well, the esoteric IDE has a debugger, so you could inspect the tape state there

the wat

9:28 AM

This one has a debugger

Martin Büttner

@feersum Timwi's baby

usu it turns out to be easier to write my own instead of looking through a pile of junk

I want to test it automatically

Martin Büttner

10:05 AM

(btw, if it turns out that BF* is TC, I'm obviously calling dibs on the BF-to-BF* code golf ... or metagolf)

2 hours later…

11:43 AM

First draft of BF->BF* assembler finished...but it surely has a couple hours' worth of bugs

Martin Büttner

@feersum I have an answer btw

not specific to BF though

It must be subjective then :P

Martin Büttner

huh?

ah, I see the problem

It's surely possible to invent a TC language with a 'while' construct that isn't if it's replaced with 'do-while'

Martin Büttner

X' doesn't necessarily terminate

@feersum right. I think the answer's technique can be translated to BF though.

12:25 PM

+ compiles to a 76-byte BF* program.

Martin Büttner

12:46 PM

uh, what...

1:05 PM

Wouldn't + just be + in BF*

the only difference is with [] vs {}

It's not an optimizing compiler.

okay

1:38 PM

It gets worse. > is over 200.

2:20 PM

0

Q: Download all StackExchange git repos

Introduction We all love StackExchange, therefore it would be essential to download all gems hidden on Stack Overflow repositories in the simplest possible way. Challenge/Task Your task is to write a script or program which would: Fetch the list of all (within current page) repositories unde...

code-golf networking

4 hours later…

Martin Büttner

6:36 PM

@BetaDecay codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/58615/… you could put an override comment until the answer is amended

Martin Büttner

6:55 PM

@feersum How is the translator coming along?

@MartinBüttner So do I comment "Override header: Invalid"?

Martin Büttner

That, or leave a friendly comment instead of just saying "invalid" :P

Override header: I'm marking this answer invalid while it is still producing the result in unary. Let me know when the conversion to decimal has been edited, so I can remove this comment.

Oh I see.

7:28 PM

@MartinBüttner Debugging it some more now

7:52 PM

actually, doing something else :P

1 hour later…

9:20 PM

@MartinBüttner My compiler seems to work now

undergroundmonorail

hooray

Martin Büttner

@feersum Do you have some sort of proof that it's identical for any possible I/O free BF program?

Haha, proof?

That would be awfully tedious

I mean, infinitely moreso than it was to write already

Martin Büttner

Right, but then how do we know that it actually works? :P

Test it :P

You're a physicist right? Shouldn't be asking for these silly proof things.

So do you think the philistines at CS.SE will appreciate a cryptic uncommented brainfuck transpiler?

I don' t understand why you posted the question over there

Martin Büttner

9:27 PM

@feersum only sort of...

@feersum where else would I have posted it?

it's a question about the turing-completeness of a computational model.

...

Martin Büttner

to answer your question, I don't think any SE would appreciate an uncommented code dump (not even PPCG does, really...)

I find that PPCG does :D

The fun is in the solving, so I don't really need to post it I guess.

Martin Büttner

anyway, I think on CS.SE specifically, they'd probably expect at least some reasoning for why the transpiler is working correctly

if you want to put the code and some transpiled examples in a pastebin, I'd really like to look at them though

9:50 PM

@MartinBüttner gist.github.com/feresum/794a9bafd07424fc4ae6

It's Python 2

2

10:16 PM

0

A: 1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz

Lua, 72 bytes for i=1,100 do print(({'FizzBuzz','Buzz','Fizz',i})[i^2%3+i^4%5*2+1])end Tied the world record! (Please don't cheat the rankings there.)

I was messing around with Lua FizzBuzz, and I magically hit the world-record 72 byte solution, oops.

2

If only + were string concatenation, I could shave off another byte. ;-;

It would have looked cool: f='Fizz'b='Buzz'for i=1,100 do print(({f+b,b,f,i})[i^2%3+i^4%5*2+1])end

undergroundmonorail

things you can do in python 3 that are even grosser than you can do in python 2:

# print everything in a collection
map(print, collection)

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail I've tried that sort of thing before, but it doesn't flush right away.

undergroundmonorail

weird

El'endia Starman

Lemme try again to confirm.

@Calvin'sHobbies So it's a coincidence that you made that video around the same time I randomly decided to create a challenge about Elementary Cellular Automata?

El'endia Starman

10:26 PM

Yeah, it's just a map object.

undergroundmonorail

right, i forgot about map objects

El'endia Starman

You can then list(_) it, which properly prints it all, but you'll end up with a list of Nones.

Which shows up if you're using IDLE's shell, but wouldn't if you're doing a normal program or function.

undergroundmonorail

yeah

@ZachGates I think you meant "Oh?" ;)

10:44 PM

@Mauris Squirrel has + for string concat, mwahahaha

Calvin's Hobbies

@mbomb007 Uh yes. I never saw your post at all.

El'endia Starman

@undergroundmonorail Hey, golfed it! *z,=map(print, ...)

undergroundmonorail

ayyy

El'endia Starman

Saves two bytes over the list(...) method.

El'endia Starman

11:09 PM

Which is also nice because now instead of doing for d in dir(...):print(d), I can do *d,=map(print,dir(...)). Which is three bytes/characters shorter!

And also looks cooler. :P

Martin Büttner

I feel like I just discovered the tip that will change the way we golf Mathematica. (I'm sure one of the better Mathematica golfers like alephalpha has used it before, but I don't remember ever seeing it.)

11:43 PM

they've got a top secret deal with Larry Wall to join the Mathematica development team

@MartinBüttner did you try compiling any bf programs?

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Sep '1527

The Nineteenth Byte

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