The Nineteenth Byte

Martin Büttner

12:07 AM

@Dennis No that's fine. I just mean tailored towards those particular strings.

Dennis

12:29 AM

@MartinBüttner OK, thanks.

I'll try it tomorrow if my idea makes any sense.

feersum

1:52 AM

Does anyone know an easy tool to draw a graph (gives some vertices/edges)?

Sp3000

Dot?

Here's a guide with examples: graphviz.org/pdf/dotguide.pdf, download from graphviz.org

Thomas Kwa

Hey everyone, I was wondering if codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/50543/39328 should be community wiki or not, since I improved on the routine I found.

Nathan Merrill

2:34 AM

@ThomasKwa I'd recommend making a meta post.

The comments on this post: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/2155/… has a comment mentioning "how far is too far"

but that point is never fleshed out

why must chat be dead?

New Main Posts

3:16 AM

-1

Q: An Easy Index Puzzle!

Difficulty: Easy Try and implement a function that takes the following input and gives the following output: INPUT: X Coordinate (integer) Y Coordinate (integer) OUTPUT: An index (integer) Where the output depends on tracing the input in a circular fashion around the origin. The index c...

math

Thomas Kwa

4:05 AM

Hmm. Complicating the issue of whether to post as community wiki, I guess, is that there are standard routines in every language. On almost every quine challenge I see the words "modification of the standard quine" or something of that nature.

xnor

5:18 AM

aargh

how on earth did someone do this in 42 chars of Python 2: golf.shinh.org/p.rb?permutater ?

it prints all permutations of the input string in lexicographic order relative to the input order

i can't see how to get anywhere close

feersum

ooh looks like fun

Sparr

@xnor neat site. thanks for the link

xnor

usually, there a bunch of solutions that are within 1 or 2 chars of the best

so it's really weird how on this one there's two exceptional solutions

Sp3000

What do you have so far?

Oh wow, 72 nice

xnor

unfortunately, I didn't save my code and the site doesn't either

but it's the natural thing with itertools

Sp3000

5:21 AM

Ah right

xnor

usually, i think itertools can't win

Sp3000

Do they have to be in lexicographical order?

xnor

but unlike here, you have to write a program rather than a function

it compares the output directly as text for the test cases

feersum

one thing to remember is that on anarchy golf, all problems are kolmogorov-complexity

xnor

(which also makes me wonder about shenanigans of optimizing to test cases)

feersum

5:22 AM

it only has to work fro those 2 inputs

xnor

unfortunately, hoge is not sorted

the scary thing is that i wasn't even to write code that lists the rotations of the input in 42 chars

Sp3000

Damn there's not even any hidden test cases, it's as feersum says :(

But it does have to be in the order given

It'd be funny if they managed to get it right with, say, import random

xnor

in theory you could guess which of the inputs you have with id(0)

the same two golfers also found super-short solutions in other languaes

Sp3000

Ruby 20 bytes o_O

xnor

how many bytes does it even take to read input and print in Ruby?

feersum

5:38 AM

perhaps the next great filesystem exploit has been discovered

Sparr

does ruby have command line parameters like perl to supply default behavior?

feersum

in python for example, there is some trick that you should read multiline input by opening a file '../fd0' or something

Sparr

perl golfers often count "-p" as just one or two characters, despite it putting a 30-character loop-and-print around your code

feersum

there you have to use #!perl though it is often worthwile

Sp3000

5:51 AM

Based on the front page (search for "file") and also the comments by leonid in this blog post, I think at some point it was possible to write files with one submission, and read them later with another submission

feersum

oh this is a quite old problem

xnor

ah, so it was an exploit

that makes me feel better

Sp3000

I'm not sure if that's definitely what happened here, but it seems likely

xnor

6:08 AM

well, i'm going to claim that we win!

Peter Taylor

@trichoplax Did you know that some of Perl's syntactic design decisions were taken to allow a friend of Larry Wall to write poetry in it? perlmonks.org/?node_id=451207

2

xnor

7:13 AM

i'm currently looking at: golf.shinh.org/p.rb?DozzFizzBuzz

since it lacks a description, it's a generalization of FizzBuzz where each prime has its own four-letter words

and among the primes, the first letter cycles through 'DFBMPQD'

and the second letter through 'oiuea''

and then 'zz'

each prime-word appears once, so 4 is Dozz, not DozzDozz

Trying to beat 120?

just got it!

:P nice

still 3 more days until it closes though, might not hold

isaacg

I had an idea for a challenge, as follows: For each programming language, find the shortest string in that language that can be output by a program shorter than the string. Ties are broken lexicographically.

How does it sound?

xnor

7:20 AM

hmm

lemme think about Python

Sp3000

Like, print id?

xnor

-10 has length 3, and can be done as ~9

oh, probably can't REPL

isaacg

Right, no repl

xnor

@Sp3000 that's a great one!

this seems way easier for languages with automatic output

isaacg

Sure, in Pyth it's T

I want to emphasize the language by language aspect, not overall length.

xnor

7:23 AM

so a Rosetta Stone?

it will be trivial for lots of languages

wait, it's the output length that matters

so print id is probably too long

isaacg

Perhaps

Probably is.

xnor

ok, this is more interesting that i thought at first

print'1'*12

Sp3000

print 1e7

isaacg

I want to emphasize language by language winners - not rosetta stone, which is 'do this task in many langauges.'

Is there an existing tag for that?

xnor

@Sp3000 for the first time in golfing history, we're happy e gives a float

Sp3000

7:25 AM

Indeed :P

isaacg

If it didn't, 1e9 would be just as good

xnor

@isaacg in theory, all challenges are compared language-by-language, depending on who you ask

isaacg

Sure. OK, I'll right up a proposal for the sandbox.

xnor

for golf.shinh.org/p.rb?DozzFizzBuzz , it's funny how the run-time (which is publically displayed) spikes up for my answer and the 120

Sp3000

Alternative 10: print{.5}. Would lose on the tiebreak, but print-1e6 would be better anyway

Actually, are we counting newlines?

isaacg

7:29 AM

Hm. I'd say newlines don't count.

The "length of an output" is actual length -1 if it ends in a newline, or actual length if it doesn't.

xnor

i think that might lead to exploits in languages that can quote multiple empty lines

isaacg

Or in benefits to running the program on a windows machine.

Sp3000

Broken lexicographically by program or by output?

(also I'm not sure about the fastest-gun-in-the-west problem with T/A/etc.)

isaacg

I'd say by output.

Sp3000

Then CJam would probably win I think

isaacg

7:36 AM

I'd hope fastest gun would be solved by winner being most languages won.

Each individual language won gets you 1 point. Most points wins.

Invalidated at my discrecion if it doesn't look golfed.

Sp3000

Hmm well the problem is, say you post T for Pyth. Then I come along, late to the party and start on my answer. I'd probably refrain from posting T even though it's obvious because it feels like copying?

isaacg

Right.

But, you can post other language answers.

Sp3000

Doesn't really stop someone getting a major headstart by posting, say, 10 obvious answers and making everybody else feel like they can't post them

(It's a cool idea, but it kinda has the same problems as golf practice IMO)

isaacg

I could just say '1 answer per day' or something.

Sp3000

Hmm that's an interesting idea...

Katenkyo

7:43 AM

@isaacg Even for people joining after 5 days?

isaacg

Maybe just no more than 1 answer on the first day.

Katenkyo

Or will it be something like maxAnswer per Post = days since start

isaacg

Hm, @Katenkyo I like that the best.

Katenkyo

It would not limit new challengers more than first days ones, and still be 1 answer/day FGOTW

@isaacg Nice :)

Katenkyo

8:19 AM

Controller will soon be over for my koth

Finally !

By the way, I have a doubt on it... Should I put friendly fire on or not...?

Lembik

8:43 AM

chat is moving to New York??

Katenkyo

@Lembik How that?

Optimizer

@Lembik Will we all be moved along with it too ?

Lembik

a notice came up saying it was moving from OR to NY

Katenkyo

9:00 AM

@Lembik Where is that notice? Oo

randomra

I could swear the new CH challenge was asked with hexa digits before but can't find it

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

code-golf Shortest String with a Shorter Program In this challenge, you will find a program whose output is longer than the program itself. The winning program will be the one which gives the shortest output, while still being shorter than that output. Scoring: Each language will be considered...

Sp3000

9:18 AM

@isaacg Can we edit a post to golf a program?

isaacg

Did you post a comment?

And give it a few days?

Sp3000

No I mean for the shortest string challenge

We can't post new answers until the challenge has been up for more days, but can we edit existing ones

isaacg

See most recent edit

Sp3000

Does "total number of submissions" mean that if someone else gets optimal, we can ditch that language and replace it with another?

isaacg

Hm. That's the current implication, but I'm not sure if I want that to be the case

What do you think?

Benefit: Reduces feel-bad for people whose anser is beaten.

I think it's better overall.

Katenkyo

9:26 AM

I should try to golf one day :3

Sp3000

I was wondering whether disallowing it would make people think about their submissions more before posting

isaacg

@Sp3000 It incentivizes perfection on the first try, which I think is somewhat unfortunate.

Sp3000

Hmm well I'd be fine either way, just thought you might want to specify more clearly :)

isaacg

OK, will do.

Sp3000

btw there's better than T in Pyth :P

Optimizer

9:34 AM

@Sp3000 is there ?

isaacg

Oh?

Optimizer

^ lang creator not sure

Sp3000

Makes it beat the CJam solution I had in mind, actually

Optimizer

A ?

B ?

Sp3000

No, for CJam it'd be W

Optimizer

9:36 AM

why ?

Sp3000

"The second tiebreaker is the lexicographical ordering on the output. "

Optimizer

oh

so H ?

Sp3000

There's still one better :P

(also H is actually worse than T)

Optimizer

its not listed online then

isaacg

Well, Y and [ and ] and ( all work in pyth, but T beats them all.

Optimizer

9:39 AM

Y is also worse than T

rcrmn

@isaacg regarding the rosetta-stone tag, I believe it's purpose is to mark the questions in which the winner is the one with the most languages used in their solution - you are just restricting which solutions everyone can use, which are the ones that are the shortest for each language

isaacg

That's one way to interpret it, I suppose. I feel like it's sufficiently diffferent from existing challenges with that tag that it shouldn't use it.

Sp3000

@isaacg Why not (?

isaacg

@Sp3000 Oh, right, I forgot that ( was so early lexicographically

rcrmn

I don't think it's that different from the others, you just add a restriction to the winning condition of typical rosetta-stone challenges

By merging code-golf with rosetta-stone

Optimizer

9:42 AM

W in CJam

someone would consider A or B at first, but not that :D

randomra

right, tried to beat the pyth T in Cjam

isaacg

So, ( feels like the winner so far.

Sp3000

Nope, got better

Optimizer

@isaacg you should transfer ownership of Pyth to Sp3000 if you don't know the better one now :P

Sp3000

This one's not in Pyth :P

Optimizer

9:46 AM

@Sp3000 then there is no point. right ? its intra language

Sp3000

I thought we were talking about overall winner

Optimizer

overall winner is the winner of most intra lang ones :P

isaacg

The real winner is going to be some language with a 1 character output with no input.

Like B****fuck .

Optimizer

GS : p

isaacg

What is GS on empty input?

Optimizer

9:48 AM

nothing

Sp3000

@Optimizer So close :P

Optimizer

@Sp3000 still no ?

Sp3000

`

Optimizer

@Sp3000 its the same output

Sp3000

Backtick is before p

Optimizer

9:49 AM

wait .. tie breaker involves code too ?

isaacg

Second tiebreaker

If outputs are identical

Optimizer

lol

Sp3000

Maybe isaacg should emphasise the tiebreakers more :P

Optimizer

I havent read the question yet :P

Sp3000

D:

randomra

9:50 AM

@isaacg length of code doesn't matter? code_aa is better than code_b ?

isaacg

@randomra You're right, I should make that length of code, then lexi on code.

Optimizer

so its like day 1 - everyone will be winning in their languages.

no day 2

or more like, day 2 will be finding new esolangs

randomra

@Optimizer (removed) before I could make fun of that.. :P

@Optimizer exploring esolangs is always fun

Optimizer

so finally 5 tie breakers ?

isaacg

4 I think.

primary is output length, then output non-ASCII, lexi output, code length, lexi code.

Then time, I suppose.

randomra

9:55 AM

beating a posted language could score double so you wouldn't always just search for an unused language

Optimizer

@isaacg that is 5

randomra

might be less fun though

Sp3000

I don't think that'd work with the current rules of editing posts if you're beaten

Optimizer

if you are beaten, even if you copy the same code, u posted it later..

isaacg

Perhaps an extra point for beating a solution that has been up for at least 2 days?

Optimizer

9:57 AM

thats hard to track

Sp3000

I mean if you switch languages, you'd have to make sure people keep the original submissions up

isaacg

No, I can just look at edit histories.

Optimizer

switch languages as in ?

Sp3000

You could, but I'd imagine that would be even harder to track

isaacg

Yeah, it seems like more trouble than it's worth. I think improving on someone else's solution will likely be its own reward without needing to be built into the scoring.

New Main Posts

12:06 PM

-2

Q: Rotation algorithm in PHP

Joel and Henry are playing a game. They have N balls numbered from 0 to N−1. Henry asks Joel to reverse the position of the balls, i.e., to change the order from say, 0,1,2,3 to 3,2,1,0. He further asks Joel to reverse the position of the balls N times, each time starting from one position furth...

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