The Nineteenth Byte

Sp3000

00:00

Well I guess it depends on the nature of the library. I mean, Python is basically a subset of Pyth in a sense, since it can run Python, but I wouldn't think that's a copyright issue (maybe?)

VTCAKAVSMoACE

> Python is basically a subset of Pyth

It's syntax can be totally different though...? I mean, it depends on how close the language is to it's origin - making a library doesn't change it, because (at least in Java) any classes will extend from java.lang.Object, not from your library.

Pyth is just too different to make a claim that it is too similar to Python to be not a separate programming language.

Sp3000

Hence "depends on the nature of the library", is what I meant

VTCAKAVSMoACE

I see your point - I didn't quite get what you meant until now.

Ooh. I smell down voters.

Calvin's Hobbies

@quartata What challenge

Sp3000

It doesn't really matter tbh, so don't worry about it if you don't agree :)

VTCAKAVSMoACE

00:08

No, I agree - I just didn't quite understand you. I got it now, and, yes, I'd agree. I believe, though, that you'd have to give credit to the people who wrote the original language nonetheless.

@feersum That's what I said. :P

Alex A.

@quartata I don't know but I would assume it's either underspecified or people think the task is too boring.

feersum

@VTCAKAVSMoACE Your answer says "Define it as a separate language."

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Not really a separate language - just not the "clean" version of the original. I think I say something similar to that in a sub-point.

feersum

Using a language with a library is clearly different from a separate language. You should say what you mean.

Calvin's Hobbies

^

VTCAKAVSMoACE

00:12

I'll go make that clearer. >.>

Calvin's Hobbies

@quartata I'm downvoting because it has our usual duplicate smell "the answers could be copied over from the old question"

And do we really need to rewrite every popular programming task as a catalog challenge?

feersum

Wow, the sandbox has gotten really popular all of a sudden.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Are we doing factorial? :D

feersum

My latest sandbox post has 16 votes.

A couple of others also got 10+ recently.

Sp3000

sysreq accepts too fast :/

Calvin's Hobbies

00:15

^

VTCAKAVSMoACE

^^

Doorknob

^^^

Alex A.

^^^^

VTCAKAVSMoACE

^ I agree with this too.

GamrCorps

^

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

00:21

^^

Alex A.

^^^

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^^^^^

Doorknob

^^^^^^^^

VTCAKAVSMoACE

2^5^

Okay, back to the land of finite carats...

Can someone sum up Code Review for me?

Doorknob

evil nemesis site

2

Calvin's Hobbies

00:26

@VTCAKAVSMoACE Deceiver. Ow!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Code Review is a site where you post your code and people criticize it, and you both do it for rep.

Alex A.

It's like Stack Overflow, except on there, one person gets flamed and the other gets rep.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

00:41

୬絗⢄!

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Hey, what are a few esolangs end with 'er' or 'ar'?

I have Unilinear, but I need something that has fewer syllables.

SuperJedi224

BitChanger

Braincopter

Brainloller

Brainscrambler

BytePusher

Byter

Challenger

Cvlemar

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Thank you, I got it now. :D

SuperJedi224

So which one was it?

Doorknob

hi how do you add comments? — bobjenkins 4 mins ago

2

VTCAKAVSMoACE

00:49

> You could use a youtube tutorial mate

Dennis

wah y u -1 me answer? — bobjenkins 4 mins ago

ಠ_ಠ

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@SuperJedi224 I needed a rhyme for something. Also, what's an alternative to "distress" that ends with the vowel sound "oo"?

(this is legitimately on topic, I swear)

This is what I've got so far:
A glooming Pieces this morning with it brings.
The Sonata, for sorrow, will not show his header.
Go Forth, to have more talk of these sad things.
Some shall be BitChanged, and some Byter.
For never was there a tale of more woe
than that of Code Golf and Code Review!

I need to replace "woe" with something that rhymes with Review.

SuperJedi224

thesaurus.com/browse/distress?s=t

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Oh, so the last couplet becomes "For never was there a tale that caused more blues/than that of Code Golf and Code Review!"

Thanks!

Doorknob

> A tale of more woe none could construe

VTCAKAVSMoACE

00:54

Ooh, that's even better.

Dennis

ERROR: syntax: invalid character "ï¿½"

@AlexA. ^ Me trying to convince Julia to accept ISO 8859-1 encoding. I've tried to convince Julia to use

Doorknob

That doesn't make as much sense though. :P

I think yours is better.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Meh. It's Shakespearian-esque, we can get away with it.

Really? :\

Doorknob

Then you need some kind of meter, at least. :P

VTCAKAVSMoACE

I'm trying to follow the meter from this:
A glooming peace this morning with it brings.
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head.
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things.
Some shall be pardoned, and some punishèd.
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo.

I'm somewhat close, and the audience will be forgiving. I hope.

Doorknob

00:58

I... don't see the connection. That's in iambic pentameter (x/x/x/x/x/ with x being unstressed and / being stressed), and your first line, for example, is x/x/xx/x/x/, and your second is xx/xx/xx/xx/x.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

>.> You're better at words than me.

That sentence was sooo bad.

You're better at poetry than I.

Is that right? Maybe? Whatever. You know what I'm saying.

I'll revise.

Alex A.

@Dennis Haha

What did you do?

Dennis

Saved the file using ISO 8859-1 encoding and set the terminal and locale to en_US. Julia was not convinced.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@Doorknob I'm going to leave it the way it is and mark it as purposefully terrible. c:

Ooh, that can be part of the bonus!

What's an ironically terrible fake-shakespeare way to say "Scoring"?

Alex A.

01:20

@Dennis Hahaha

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Oh Montague Code Review, Oh, Montague Code Review, Wherefore art thou Montague Code Review! 'Tis this tale which I bring to you, with dread in my heart and a tear in mine eye*: The Rivalry between Code Golf and Code Review! Thusly, I challenge thee to a duel!** The Duel's Rules Thine "code"...

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@SuperJedi224 Oh, yeah, forgot that those were two different words. My bad.

orlp

01:41

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know binary, those who don't, and those who didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

9

Doorknob

Apparently today is Apple Day (the tasty kind).

SuperJedi224

It was also Back to the Future day.

Doorknob

And yet we still don't have hoverboards ;(

SuperJedi224

No, I suppose we don't.

orlp

fun fact

every society using numerals and a base system will claim their natural base is base 10

Doorknob

01:44

SuperJedi224

If you get an 11/100 on a CS test, but you claim it should be counted as a 'C', they'll probably decide you deserve the upgrade.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

I can make tags, right?

Doorknob

no

([tag:yes])

VTCAKAVSMoACE

So... yes?

Because I want to use code-poetry for the pop-con in the sandbox.

Doorknob

Well, you just did, so...

VTCAKAVSMoACE

01:48

Yeah. I mean in question asking. :P

SuperJedi224

I think he's asking if he's allowed to add custom tags when he posts it.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Like, where it asks me for the tag.

^^ That.

Doorknob

codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/create-tags

VTCAKAVSMoACE

Oh, sweet. I need to bookmark the privileges page, I hardly know half the things I can do.

SuperJedi224

Well, good bye now.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

01:50

Bye. o.o

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Good night @SuperJedi224

feersum

I just checked my 6x6 equal 2x2 blocks grid program and it has finished.

> File is too big to be opened by Notepad++

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

XD NPP Users unit!

(NPPUU)

Doorknob

You are right. Notepad++ is basically PUU. ;)

feersum

716 MB.

I could figure out how bytes a grid is and divide it by 7 instead of opening the file to see the result.

I think I'll try to use tail instead.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

02:07

Good night, all!

feersum

@El'endiaStarman @PeterTaylor Got 44084736 for 6x6.

Dennis

@AlexA. This is what I was asking you about the other day. Does Dyalog actually print here outside a REPL?

Alex A.

@Dennis Oh

Come to think of it I'm not sure because I can't figure out how to get it to run as a script

Hm

I should change my answer

Dennis

{2<+/|2-/B←(32/2)⊤⍵:⎕←⍵}¨⍳2*⎕ is shorter anyway.

However, at least ngn-apl doesn't exit after executing the program...

Alex A.

02:23

I can just make it a function

Whatevs

El'endia Starman

@feersum Nice!

Alex A.

@Dennis Made it an answer. I had forgotten about the unclear printing.

New Meta Posts

0

Q: Should a character encoding that can't actually be used by a compiler/interpreter be allowed?

Suppose you are answering a code-golf challenge in a language whose interpreter can only use UTF-8. Say you have a program that uses some code points in the range 128-255, but not higher. Would it then be permissible to encode your answer in Latin-1 or some other single-byte encoding? I would ar...

Doorknob

-1

A: How do I remove a SQL Server 2008 instance from command prompt w/o removing the server?

sorry but i dont know how to answer your question fuck you

hahaha what?

PhiNotPi

@Doorknob How did you manage to find that answer?

Doorknob

02:30

Smokey

Calvin's Hobbies

Can we do the silent treatment on those who have yet to change to spooky avatars?

Alex A.

@Doorknob I'll edit out the name and submit this to Gems from Stack Exchange.

PhiNotPi

I think my avatar's pretty spooky if you ask me.

VTCAKAVSMoACE

@Calvin'sHobbies spoopy*

Alex A.

And birds are super scary. Hitchcock made a whole movie about us.

El'endia Starman

02:35

I GOT THE SAME SCORE AS MATHEMATICA WITH PYTHON!!!

2

[does a little dance] :P

feersum

@AlexA. You use APL, right?

Alex A.

Yes

feersum

Do you have a version that runs on your local machine?

Alex A.

Yep. Dyalog APL 14.1 for Mac.

feersum

Have you ever used the APL codepage in it?

VTCAKAVSMoACE

02:40

Man, I need to sleep. Night all.

Alex A.

I don't know how I would or wouldn't since all of the characters are inserted via keyboard shortcuts.

feersum

If you use any normal text editor it probably uses UTF8.

Alex A.

You can change it but they usually default to that, yeah.

I do remember reading that Dyalog supports both encodings, APL and UTF-8.

Calvin's Hobbies

@PhiNotPi Could be spoopier

@El'endiaStarman They pulled ahead by 11

quartata

I think I'm just gonna abandon the beer catalog. Sucks we can't turn the pop con one into a catalog.

El'endia Starman

02:48

@Calvin'sHobbies Dang!

I mean, I expected that would probably happen, but still...

feersum

Ah, but your solution uses itertools. That means it could be shorter.

El'endia Starman

And not even going to Python 3.5 will win as I would only save four bytes.

...how would I generate the permutations without itertools?

feersum

@El'endiaStarman codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/58660/30688

El'endia Starman

I know it can be done, of course, but shorter?

hmm

quartata

I thought of a challenge. So the challenge is to simply print out a certain passage (dunno what I would pick) but you can google translate it into any language you want and print that out instead. So if it happens to be beneficial (read:shorter) for you to print it out in Spanish you can.

Doorknob

02:53

Google Translate is an external resource that can (and does) change

Alex A.

^

Geobits

It also doesn't seem like the code would be the challenge, but just finding the right language.

Calvin's Hobbies

@quartata But wont everyone probably settle on the same shortest language

Doorknob

also that

Alex A.

^

El'endia Starman

02:55

@feersum Using your solution adds 20 bytes.

Doorknob

@AlexA. stop poking me >:(

2

Alex A.

^

quartata

No, because it depends on what programming language you are using. Stuff like repeated chars that you can abuse would come into play

Hmm I wonder if google translate works on the wayback machine

Doorknob

@quartata I still think most submissions would probably still choose the same language.

@quartata I would be surprised if it did... translation is done server side

@AlexA. owie ow oww

Calvin's Hobbies

[tag:အဲလက်စ်-မှားယွင်းနေသည်]

darn

亚历克斯是错误的

Why can that be tagged but not the other one?

Doorknob

02:59

Well, I know that there's a Chinese Language site.

Not sure if there's a...

... whatever-that-is site.

translate: အဲလက်စ်-မှားယွင်းနေသည်

(from English) အဲလက်စ်-မှားယွင်းနေသည်

El'endia Starman

Hindu, I think.

Doorknob

THANKS TRANSLATEBOT

quartata

Maybe but I dont think it would really be that simple. There are too many factors. Even if there was such a perfect golfing language it would take time to discover

I wonder if Babelfish is still a thing.

Alex A.

I only search on Altavista using Netscape Navigator. I do all of my translating with Babelfish.

Calvin's Hobbies

@El'endiaStarman The language starts with a b

Nathan Merrill

03:02

your guy's new question about sturdy squares is really interesting

I'm looking at the draft for the OEIS, and I'm wondering why it doesn't matter if the 4x4 is toroidal or not

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies ....can't really think of any such language off the top of my head. Looks like it's from around south/southeast Asia though.

Calvin's Hobbies

@NathanMerrill Yup. Peter has been making good notes: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/24833319#24833319

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill @PeterTaylor had a proof of this earlier in this chat room. Lemme see if I can find it.

Calvin's Hobbies

@El'endiaStarman Bu

Nathan Merrill

well, I don't follow his logic

I'll have to manually prove it myself

but thanks

have you guys looked into 3x3?

feersum

03:05

The toroidal property is easy

Label the variables a,b,c,... in reading order

Calvin's Hobbies

@NathanMerrill Periodic not possible (I tried brute force)

feersum

Then a+e = c+g and b+f=d+h

so you can see right away that a+e+d+h = a+e+b+f.

quartata

Bulgarian?

Calvin's Hobbies

no

Doorknob

Burmese?

Nathan Merrill

03:07

a,b,c,d
e,f,g,h

Calvin's Hobbies

@Doorknob Maybe. What does it say?

Nathan Merrill

right, feersum?

feersum

yes

Doorknob

@Calvin'sHobbies no idea, just Google searched the first character :P

Nathan Merrill

ah, I can see it

Doorknob

03:08

hahahaha I put it through Google Translate @Calvin'sHobbies :D

El'endia Starman

...!!!

quartata

It says alex is wrong

Calvin's Hobbies

See? It's globally accepted.

quartata

Wait does it really? I was joking

El'endia Starman

It totally does say "Alex is wrong".

Calvin's Hobbies

03:11

2 mins ago, by El'endia Starman

...!!!

El'endia Starman

Congratulations on your new-found telepathic abilities.

Doorknob

It actually does, lol

Nathan Merrill

ok, last question (I think)

what about 2x2x2 cubes?

sturdy cubes

El'endia Starman

.......oh boy, here we go again....

Well, 2x2x2 is easy. There are 8! ways.

3x3x3? Uhhhhh....

Calvin's Hobbies

Could also consider 3x3 subgrids and such

El'endia Starman

03:12

No more than 27!/4! ways.

Nathan Merrill

the count isn't as interesting as whether it can even exist

IMO

El'endia Starman

Oh, I'm pretty sure that sturdy hypercubes exist in all dimensions.

The key concept is that if you make the sum high enough, you have enough ways of making that sum that you can fit some of them together to make a sturdy hypercube.

feersum

We need to make one OEIS sequence to rule them all.

Nathan Merrill

right, but the initial limitation was that you can only use [0,N), where N is the number of available spaces

El'endia Starman

Even so.

feersum

03:15

It should iterate through all numbers of dimensions, all grid sizes, and all sizes of equal subgrids.

El'endia Starman

I generated a 7x7 sturdy square from a pattern I noticed in a 5x5 sturdy square.

Nathan Merrill

ok, better question then

feersum

I'm curious to know whether there are more 5x5, or 5x5x5(...) grids.

Nathan Merrill

sturdy cube, where each plane in the cube is also sturdy

El'endia Starman

oooooh....

feersum! Attack that problem!

:P

feersum

03:17

That's covered in my one sequence to rule them all.

Nathan Merrill

lol

feersum

Or not.

I didn't specify, for an oblong equal subgrid size, whether it needs to work in one orientation or all orientations.

Alex A.

03:30

Everyone, keep your eye on the Gems from Stack Exchange Tumblr. It will have a new submission soon. (cc @Doorknob)

Dennis

@AlexA. {0~⍨{⍵×2<+/2≢/⍵⊤⍨32/2}¨⍳2*⍵}

Calvin's Hobbies

@NathanMerrill Not immediately finding any 3x3x3 sturdy cubes (with 2x2 boxes)

Alex A.

@Dennis wut

Calvin's Hobbies

Naive code:

#abc|jkl|stu
#def|mno|vwx
#ghi|pqr|yzA
import itertools, random
perms = itertools.permutations(range(1, 28), 27)
for perm in perms:
	a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z,A = perm
	s1 = a+b+d+e + j+k+m+n
	s2 = b+c+e+f + k+l+n+o
	s3 = d+e+g+h + m+n+p+q
	s4 = e+f+h+i + n+o+q+r
	s5 = j+k+m+n + s+t+v+w
	s6 = k+l+n+o + t+u+w+x
	s7 = m+n+p+q + v+w+y+z
	s8 = n+o+q+r + w+x+z+A
	if s1==s2==s3==s4==s5==s6==s7==s8:
		print 'sum =', s1
		print a,b,c,'|',j,k,l,'|',s,t,u
		print d,e,f,'|',m,n,o,'|',v,w,x

Alex A.

Please remove your tabs and try again

Dennis

03:32

Actually, scratch that. The only reason I wanted it work work with Dyalog was so I could do that: {0~⍨{⍵×2<+/2≢/⍵⊤⍨⍵/2}¨⍳2*⍵}

feersum

@Calvin'sHobbies With a maximally naive approach like that, you'll never find one out of 27! even if there are billions.

You need to have rejection when only part of the cube is generated.

El'endia Starman

There has to be an even smarter way to do this.

Calvin's Hobbies

@feersum Yeah probably (though this way gave the 3x3 ones instantly)

feersum

9! <<<<<<<<<< 27!

El'endia Starman

A question I thought of just moments ago: what's the Levenshtein distance between 3x3 sturdy squares? I conjecture it's at least three.

feersum

03:36

(That's the super less than operator)

Calvin's Hobbies

Was there discussion on whether there are squares for arbitrarily large NxN?

Alex A.

@Dennis how u git so smrt

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies No, but that's easy.

"Yes."

Look at my 7x7 solution from yesterday and follow the pattern.

feersum

It would be neat to write an algorithm for generating one.

Calvin's Hobbies

ah

2

Dennis

03:39

@AlexA. git smart :P Seriously though, just some minor golfs. Removing B← already saved 2 bytes.

Alex A.

@Dennis Why did I even assign B?

Dennis

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Alex A.

So does 2≢/ weed out the elements equal to 2? I'm not sure what that part is doing.

Dennis

2≢/ is pairwise non-match. The result is exactly the same as |2-/.

Alex A.

That's nuts. I definitely would not have thought of that.

Dennis

03:47

Does APL really have no way of finding all indexes of an element?

Alex A.

Have you tried iota and epsilon?

And epsilon underbar

I can never remember how

Dennis

iota only gives the first index...

Alex A.

Epsilon underbar will give a boolean vector

This is a way to do it, perhaps not a good way: 0~⍨(⍳≢x)×3⍷x

Where x is the vector and 3 is the element you're looking for

Dennis

I was wondering because it could have shortened your answer. But that's a lot longer...

Alex A.

Haha it sure is

Dennis

03:53

J has I. which is IndicesOfOnes.

Alex A.

I'm not familiar enough with J to know what that does

Dennis

For a Boolean vector, exactly what is says. I. 1 0 1 0 1 gives 0 2 4.

For non-Booleans, n returns its index n times. For example, I. 0 1 2 3 gives 1 2 2 3 3 3.

Alex A.

That's kind of odd

The latter, I mean

El'endia Starman

@feersum, @PeterTaylor, @Calvin'sHobbies, I'll be able to work more intently on this question after I'm done Skyping with my fiancée, but consider this: what operations can be done on the elements of a sturdy square that preserve its sturdiness?

Things that won't work: swap two numbers, rotate a sub-square, shift one row, shift one column.

Things that will: rotate entire square, flip horizontally or vertically.

Calvin's Hobbies

Add some constant to all numbers (not super useful)

feersum

04:07

You can also flip diagonally.

You can rotate along even-size dimensions of sturdy rectangles.

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies You can subtract from m*n-1.

feersum

I guess that's just a composition of (1) multiply by -1 (2) add mn-1.

I wonder if that could be useful to speed up a program.

Right now mine uses the 8 symmetries for a square or 4 for a rectangel.

TheDoctor

Oh look, math

Alex A.

> rectangel

El'endia Starman

Math is awesome. ^_^

TheDoctor

04:16

I should really post a challenge...

It's only been 2 years or so since the last one

Alex A.

Well you've been busy with your job at the hospital, haven't you, doctor?

El'endia Starman

I'm also willing to bet that you can't interchange any three elements in a sturdy square, but I don't yet have a proof.

TheDoctor

s/hospital/saving the world/gpw

Alex A.

Well you've been busy with your job at the saving the world, haven't you, doctor?

El'endia Starman

*Doctor

Alex A.

04:27

I'm referring to him as a doctor, not assuming that his name is "Doctor."

El'endia Starman

Yeah, but I was referencing the Doctor.

Alex A.

There are at least several doctors in every hospital.

El'endia Starman

...not sure if trolling or not...

Alex A.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

feersum

Any kind of "doctor" should be capitalized if used as a form of address.

TheDoctor

04:29

And yet you didn't just now

feersum

Was I addressing anyone? No.

Alex A.

@feersum I disagree, Postal Worker.

You're addressing everything there at the post office

El'endia Starman

Say, @TheDoctor, which incarnation are you?

Alex A.

He is Satan incarnate

El'endia Starman

For the Daleks, yeah, maybe.

TheDoctor

04:30

17.3, I mutated into a Shibe Inu

El'endia Starman

Wow.

Alex A.

He isn't Dr. When or Mr. Who or whatever. He's a dog masquerading as a doctor.

Someone call the police.

TheDoctor

ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

Brb...

Calvin's Hobbies

0

Q: Have "sturdy squares" been studied before?

Over on PPCG I've just made a question that involves arranging the numbers 1 to 9 on a 3 by 3 grid such that every 2 by 2 subgrid has the same sum. I'm calling such 3 by 3 grids and their N by N counterparts "sturdy squares". For example 1 5 3 9 8 7 4 2 6 is a sturdy square because the four 2...

reference-request matrices recreational-mathematics

Not sure if that's on topic over there

And it's really annoying that the links are practically invisible

feersum

They're not in the OEIS. Clearly nobody could have studied them.

TheDoctor

04:36

Did it work?

Alex A.

Yes

feersum

@Calvin'sHobbies Is a trailing space on the lines with numbers allowed in your golf version?

El'endia Starman

I'm of the opinion that an extra trailing newline should also be allowed.

Calvin's Hobbies

@feersum No

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies No

Transcript for