ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

13:00

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Not necessarily so, IMHO.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. We finally devolved into speculations.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Unless I can use machine translation to convert my first language to a second language.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Well, let's turn back and see where this stabs @Dam.

You're allowing one OP to do that.

So the next OP has the same rights, and can refrain from posting their thoughts.

And the next, and the next, and the next.

Rathony

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I can't agree with you more. The OP should be disciplined.

@DamkerngT. The OP created another account and posted the question today.

Damkerng T.

Some questions need more elaboration (i.e., context), but I wonder if we really need that in a question such as "Should I use 'from' or 'at' in this sentence?".

@Rathony nods -- I remember that their first questions in this series were about the simple past vs. the present perfect.

Rathony

13:03

If ELL had educated him when I posted the first 7:00 am and 7:30 am question, he would have had a second thought about posting the question.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

What is the result? Almost all of the askers we get today don't post their thoughts @Dam. And that's 'cause seeing the questions on the first page gives them the impression that the standard template for an ELL question is "What is the difference between Damkerng and Damkyoon?"

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Have you read my recent meta post?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Nope. But it's too localized.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Even if it wasn't, the answers must be.

Damkerng T.

13:04

I guess, for example, you would recommend that we should close a question such as “Neither Mary nor John eat (eats?) beef” - singular or plural after 'neither .. nor'?, along with other questions with about the same level of research, as well, perhaps? -- (Thanks for a good link on avenge vs. revenge!) — Damkerng T. 23 hours ago

@DamkerngT. Yes! Both of the questions lack research, but, again, the question you provided in your comment includes the context. — Usernew 23 hours ago

Here is the 'neither ... nor' question:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So what is the result? The result is that I'm expecting a question from a new 101 rep to be better formed than those of our regulars'.

Damkerng T.

> Neither Mary nor John eat (eats?) beef” - singular or plural after 'neither .. nor'?
- Neither Mary nor John eat beef.
- Neither Mary nor John eats beef.
Which is grammatically correct?

So I think, if that's okay with many of us, things like "'from' or 'at' in this sentence" should be okay, too.

Rathony

@DamkerngT. I don't agree with you.

Damkerng T.

(I'm fine if the majority said the 'neither' is not okay on ELL, but I think we should do something more or less in a standardized manner.)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Is that supposed to be an example of a good question? I see in the answer, a single quote from a source that has apparently turned up as a result of a Google search.

Rathony

13:07

chances for learners not to understand them are higher for neither than between from and at

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't think it was a good question, if we based our "good" condition on the amount of "research" the OP shows us.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. It's not okay with nitpicks like me, but what can I do to invalidate three upvotes and one answer?

Damkerng T.

@Rathony Hmm... I think we should accommodate questions from learners of all levels the same way.

Rathony

This discussion will never end by the end of 2016.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Hover over the tooltip for "upvote".

Damkerng T.

13:08

@Rathony Probably!

I understand that it's not a simple matter.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

It's not a simple matter, and we're running in circles instead of sitting down like diplomats and settling our meddling.

Rathony

@DamkerngT. Asking about from and to is just like asking about you and they.

It's that basic.

Look at the answer that was provided by ELL.

No quality answer could be produced based on that kind of question.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

For one, I wish more users engaged in this discussion.

Rathony

That is a big difference between from/at question and neither question.

Damkerng T.

I'm okay with the answer, and at the same time wonder if the OP can understand it!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:10

So that if I had to being it up in meta, I wouldn't have to write bedtime stories.

@DamkerngT. Wait a sec man, you can't burn everything you got.

Rathony

@DamkerngT. I ate from 7:00 am and I started to eat from 7:00 am.

Which one is more idiomatic?

Damkerng T.

The OP didn't ask that.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So if the OP doesn't understand our comment, our answer, our rules, our guidelines, our help center, and our meta posts, what hopes are there for communication?

Rathony

I know

The OP doesn't belong here if he doesn't understand the difference between from and to.

That's my point.

We don't need them.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Dam the problem is, when you're building your library, you don't typically worry about whether the reader will understand the text in the books.

What you guys usually do is exactly that.

Rathony

13:13

We need quality OPs

Who can ask quality questions

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So we either have to over-cuddle the OP, or enforce quality. They can't flow in the same gutter.

Rathony

in accordance with guidelines.

Sometimes we need to yell at them.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony You know, I'm just as efficient in organic chemistry as the person I'm talking to is.

Rathony

If they post the same question like the guy who posted the go shopping crap yesterday.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

My point being, almost everyone here can take a push and write better questions if we want them to.

We don't want them to; instead, we're worrying that the existing system might be too much for them.

Damkerng T.

13:15

Wait a sec, guys. Do both of you think "I ate at/from 7:00 AM" shouldn't be on ELL, no matter how the OP (not only this specific OP) pose such a question?

Rathony

We need them as much as they need ELL, We don't need them as much as they don't need ELL.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So a guy like Cookie monster ceases to intrigue me in the 5th post I see from him.

@DamkerngT. Why not?

He can post great writing, but he deems sufficient to just post a quote and tell us "I don't get this part; could you help me get this part?"

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Why not what? Why wouldn't we forbid such a question on ELL?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Dam I only decide when a question belongs here when I know what it exactly is.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Rathony mentioned it like 15 minutes ago.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:17

Like, I only put my own books in my library. Books that I know.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: The difference between " I ate at 7:00 AM" and " I ate from 7:00 AM"?

What's the difference between: I ate at 7:00 AM. and I ate from 7:00 AM.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. This doesn't.

A similar question, with some mind food from the OP's side, does.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. No matter what? No matter how?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13 secs ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

A similar question, with some mind food from the OP's side, does.

Damkerng T.

Okay, so you think it's not a good question as is, but it could be one if the OP edited it?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:18

Yep.

Rathony

2

Q: When to use 'at' or 'from' after an adjective

Yesterday, I asked the difference between at and from following the adjective relieved. I was met with a great answer describing the differences between the prepositions following that particular adjective. I now know this example is grammatically correct: I was relieved at the news that my...

prepositions

Damkerng T.

That's okay. Now let me ask you a personal question, if you're okay with it. What would you do with the question?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. It's not a good question because I don't know how many chapters of this and that reference I should put in an answer; not because the nature of the question is bad.

Rathony

@DamkerngT. If we compare those two questions, we can see the difference.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Close as Unclear, with a link to a future consensus.

Damkerng T.

13:20

@Rathony Sure! The first obvious thing to me is the difference of the levels of competency of the two OPs!

Rathony

@DamkerngT. Did you try "difference between from (at) and at (from)" on Google?

There is 0 hits for from and at. 4 hits for at and from. one of which is that question.

That means nobody is asking the question about at and from on the internet.

Why ELL has to be the one who receives a question nobody is asking?

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Fair enough. Now let's try to think from the OP's viewpoint, and limit our English skills to about the same level as the OP's. What would you feel? Would the problem get solved for you?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony Whoa whoa whoa, what did you search for? The exact phrases?!

Rathony

Yeap.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. I feelz uneaze

Rathony

13:22

"difference between from and at"

"difference between at and from"

Damkerng T.

@Rathony I'm afraid that we could do that with almost all questions on ELL. If we disallowed such questions, maybe the only questions left would be CopperKettle's and the like. :D

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. nods -- Poor OP, isn't it?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. No, because the answer will not help me; 95% sure.

@DamkerngT. Actually, I don't believe that.

What I believe, is that our current ~~avid~~ frequent askers can ask waaaaay better questions.

But why put the effort?

Rep is an imaginary number, you get the votes, you get the answers.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. You may be right, but how can we be sure?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Because that's what their English suggests.

Damkerng T.

> "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
-- Blackstone's formulation.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:25

I can be troubled now if you make me speak Arabic; but in two minutes it'll become normal.

Damkerng T.

But you've learned Arabic for so long!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I have to work harder to get my Arabic right; and that's what begets improvement.

@DamkerngT. For how long? Looks around

Rathony

@DamkerngT. We should close it first. And ask the OP to edit it.

If the OP is interested, (s)he would edit it,

Damkerng T.

@Rathony That's what I'd like to hear!

Rathony

Not interested, wouldn't edit it.

Closing is first.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:26

feature-request close all questions by default.

Rathony

That was suggested on ELU, too.

Vote to open it.

Damkerng T.

I mean, we should try to drop more hints (read 'guidance') for our (new) OPs, in as plain English as possible.

Rathony

Not vote to close it.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

And @Dam, actually, it's kinda surprising how many of the HW dumps we have on chem turn into decent questions after we close and ask the OP to improvise.

Damkerng T.

nods

Part of the problem I can see is that most people just close it, and left the stock messages at work.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:28

Now if we didn't make the OP edit them, we would've had 1000 bad questions.

And more actually, since we would've been encouraging it.

Damkerng T.

I think 60-70% of our new users reply when we ask or request them something in comments.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. That is a problem; not as big as the ones we have to deal with right now.

Damkerng T.

Those who choose not to reply will likely turn out to be a one-time user, according to my own experience.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. That doesn't happen to me on ELL though.

Rathony

Most of them are one time users @DamkerngT.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:30

@DamkerngT. True.

Rathony

That's why we should not care about them as much.

They think ELL is not the only site.

We should think they are not the only OP.

Damkerng T.

Still, I feel bad for them when we just close our door to them.

Rathony

When we need to get rid of them, we need to get rid of them.

We need to get rid of the guy who asked go shopping question yesterday.

He has been around for more than 2 years.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. The police doesn't enjoy putting people behind bars; but what would the society be without such force?

Rathony

Look at all the craps he left over the two years.

Damkerng T.

13:32

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. We have both the police force and correctional facilities, I think. ;-)

Rathony

Still asking what is the difference between go shopping and go to shop.

Try doing and try to do.

That's bad for ELL.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Bah, screw correctional facilities. You should have strict rules first, then talk about diplomacy.

Rathony

It leaves a false impression to new users

Damkerng T.

I'd choose to close it as a duplicate (as StoneyB suggested) rather than "off-topic as they should be answered using a dictionary".

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

1111 first post reviews on chem.

Damkerng T.

13:36

Finding a dupe on ELL is not quite easy sometimes.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. What a number!

Rathony

@DamkerngT. It is difficult for ELU, too.

Damkerng T.

nods

Rathony

But since it has been around for 5 or so years

It would be easier than ELL

ELL is still disputing what is on topic and what is not

That's a problem.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony It is not.

Rathony

ELL should leave an impression that it looks tough

tougher than Yahoo

to ask a question

If you leave the 7:am question without being closed

Damkerng T.

13:39

I wish we looked tougher in answers.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

New guys like me come and ask the veterans to look back and realize the way they've come is not gonna end up well for the quality of the site.

Rathony

People will ask about 8 am, 9 am, 10 am

on and on

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony Don't forget 11 a.m.

Rathony

1111

am

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I usually have breakfast on 11 a.m. when it's not a skewl day.

@Rathony In Neptunian days? O_O

Damkerng T.

13:40

Gotta take a break for some while. BBL. It was a nice chat, even though there are still several unsolved things. Don't lose hope, though! o/

Rathony

-2

Q: Meaning of "She sang when I ate . . ." in terms of time

Suppose I ate from 7:00am to 7:30am. If I then say: She sang when I ate. What time did she start singing? If I said: She sang when I ate for 30 minutes. What time did she start singing? If I said: She sang when I ate until 7:30am. What time did she star...

prepositions tense time for

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Haven't watched the film yet.

Rathony

Yeap see you. Nice chatting, too.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony "Sangs" LOL

Rathony

The same guy

Asked this kind of question three times, I think

This time using another user name.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:43

Yeah why not? They found this very halpful homewerk service.

Rathony

Allowing a user to use more than two user names

on ELU and ELL

I don't think it is the right policy

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

There's no policy.

Rathony

There is

-3

Q: What is the procedure when you find a user who is using 2 or more user names?

One user who used 3 different user names, one mainly for posting an answer and another for downvoting other users' answers was suspended on ELL. There seems to be another user who uses two or more user names. One user posted one question on EL&U and posted the same question on ELL using a diffe...

discussion feature-request

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

If the same user makes multiple account and uses them for means of sock-puppetry, their accounts will be nuked from orbit.

Rathony

I know.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:45

@Rathony Well, there's the first comment . . .

Rathony

Yeap

kosher

It is kosher to ask crap on ELL

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

BRB making a sock-puppet account

@Rathony Actually, they're not related.

If the user is making new accounts to bypass question bans, they should be whipped.

Rathony

1

Q: there is a "bad question" on ELL I'm wondering why It's bad

I up-voted this question on ELL and the question got down-voted and looks like it's going to be closed. I was told it's a bad question and I shouldn't have up-voted it, why? I find the words 'effective' and 'affective' confusing. Most of the times, I fail to use them correctly. When should ...

discussion questions

Wondering why it is bad.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

"I shouldn't have upvoted it" We can't order folks to vote the way we like.

We can, however, persuade folks to vote the way we please.

Rathony

That's the question I left a comment "Whoever upvoted this question is doing a disservice to this community.

Now, the comment is gone.

I don't understand.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:51

Would prolly have gone the wrong message across.

Mod-removed.

Rathony

Mods need to get tougher. It is mods who should leave that kind of comment.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Would prolly have felt hostile to anyone if it was flagged though.

Rathony

I see that comment often on ELU

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

ELU is ELU, ELL is ELL.

Rathony

Yeap.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:53

There is always a sub-culture associated with how the community moderates and votes on stuff.

On ELL, it looks like vomit.

Since we're not coherent and/or consistent at anything we do.

ELU is known to be one of the tougher SEs.

TeX has the best SE community.

Rathony

Yeap. That's why I got suspended only once.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Chem endeavors to get close to TeX, and I think it's quite successful.

Part of it is because the meta guys on chem come to chat a lot, and are good internet friends.

Rathony

Yeap.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I don't see any ELL mods on chat. :(

Rathony

They don't have any obligation, but

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:57

Actually, I would've long rage-quit like a baby if it weren't for the few nice dudes ELL has.

Rathony

I think it is important to be involved in discussion like what is on topic

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony Yes, but it always helps to have one handy.

Rathony

and what should be closed and what OP should be warned, etc.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I wonder what's the last spam that got mod-nuked on ELL.

Rathony

ELL needs RegDwight kind of mod.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:58

J.R. is a really nice mod.

Wendi too, but they're busy as well.

Rathony

I respectfully disagree.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Maulik — well, he's learning a lot, but throwing stones under my feet in the process.

@Rathony Well, I just want to keep the opinion to myself.

Rathony

I have never seen Wendi around

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

This world won't change a damn if I change my idea, neither would it regarding yours.

Rathony

Yeap.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

14:02

What that matters is what we do in social interactions, much less what we think.

So extremists like me get in trouble often.

Rathony

Check and balance

That's democracy.

0

Q: Article: countable nounmin

My elder child name is Julie. Jule is nice, charming and naughty girl. My question is as girl is countable noun but i have not written any article and i try to use girl as a mass noun. Is above sentence correct.

articles

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

BTW cyanocobalamin is awesome.

@Rathony What the heck is a nounmin?

Rathony

ELU crap

I always run out of my close vote

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Rathony Very seasoned too.

Rathony

You mean cyanocobalamin as a supplement?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

14:09

No, as a molecule. :)

Chemistry is once again fascinating.

Rathony

I am not a chemistry guy.

I hated it when in high school.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Not expecting you to be, but my enthusiasm demonstrates itself in the form of a chat message.

What I find interesting is that half this chat hated chemistry back in high school.

Except @Dam, who I haven't seen to express strong thoughts, pro or con.

Rathony

I see.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

BTW @Dam if you're looking for something geeky/nerdy to study, I recommend Clayden's Organic Chemistry. I'm surprised and delighted at how much below the surface it starts explaining stuff.

2

Rathony

Not a single comment to the 7am question for 2 hours.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

14:12

My little brother could've understood what's written if he could read the English. And the typesetting and the English used are beautiful.

Rathony

24 viewers

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Nice talking to you.

I will see you around.

Take care. :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Buhbye!

Damkerng T.

14:33

"Clayden's Organic Chemistry" sounds heavy!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. How heavy?

It's really a giant in the Oragnochem textbooks in the world; but I was astonished to see that they wrote it in a way that a ten-year-old can understand, unlike stuff like March's Advanced Organic Chemistry.

2

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I heard Clay. I thought, "This must be very heavy!"

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Oh haha

Damkerng T.

:-)

Rathony

16:06

@DineshKumarGarg Hi, Dinesh, are you here?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Hullo @Dinesh! Welcome to the Cabin!

Rathony

@DineshKumarGarg Since you are not responding, I will just leave my message here.

You edited 3 posts on ELU today and all of them have typos not fixed, tags not fixed, question wrongly edited, etc.

@DineshKumarGarg Please do not edit a post if you don't know how things work on ELU.

Go to your profile and see yourself what have been changed. You never change any tag when editing.

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