ELL's Cabin

Jude Niroshan

00:55

Must you pay that price for an object however worthy it may appear to you to be?

What does the above context means?

Damkerng T.

@JudeNiroshan When you find a rather complex sentence, break it down, convert it back to its canonical form.

> Original: Must you pay that price for an object however worthy it may appear to you to be?

Damkerng T.

01:29

Chat was down! Let's continue...

> Canonical: You must pay that price for an object however worthy it may appear to you to be.

> C1: You must pay that price for an object.

> C2: It may appear to you to be [this much or that much] worthy.

I think that should be simplified enough. Leave me a ping if you still find it doesn't make sense.

I guess everyone is back after the chat's up again. :-)

Jude Niroshan

01:44

@DamkerngT. Much obliged with it.
In non-formal english, is this below sentence is ok?
I know you know me nor i know you.

Damkerng T.

@JudeNiroshan That's weird.

Jude Niroshan

Are you getting what i am trying to say?

Damkerng T.

In informal English, it's unlikely that you will want to use nor.

@JudeNiroshan I may, but I think it's safer to say that I don't get what it says.

Jude Niroshan

I want to say to some stranger, yes. I know you do not know me as well as i do not know you.

tchrist

@DamkerngT. Unless preceded by neither, which is not odd.

Nathan Tuggy

01:47

@JudeNiroshan I understand what you mean, but it requires some thought.

tchrist

It’s ok to use nor without neither in many situations, although few learners are taught this lest they get it wrong.

Nathan Tuggy

Instead, try "I know you don't know me and I don't know you."

Damkerng T.

@tchrist Indeed. I think I expected neither, but wasn't sure where the speaker wanted to put it.

tchrist

@DamkerngT. Before nor somewhere. :)

Damkerng T.

LOL

Nathan Tuggy

01:48

@tchrist Right, it's just unusual, even for native speakers.

tchrist

Somewhat.

Hardly unheard of mind you, nor some violation. Just uncommon.

Jude Niroshan

So the rearrangement should be goes like this, i know that you know me neighter i know you

tchrist

No.

> I know that neither do you know me nor do I know you.

It’s a bit of a mouthful.

> I know we don’t know each other.

That's normal.

Nathan Tuggy

The main issue in this case, I think, is just that if you start out with "I know that..." and don't immediately qualify it with a negative, slipping that "nor" in later is a great surprise.

tchrist

> I know that neither of us knows the other.

Jude Niroshan

01:51

Hm . Yes.

Nathan Tuggy

Swapping nor out and putting neither in its place doesn't help that issue as such, but bringing either of them (preferably neither) forward does.

tchrist

> I don't know that either of us knows the other.

Nathan Tuggy

*very much preferably neither; bringing nor forward is ... non-trivial here.

tchrist

Nor shall I advise doing so outside of oratory.

It begs inversion, which is um, theatrical. :)

Nathan Tuggy

Or poetic. But yeah, it's only done for effect.

tchrist

01:53

Special FX.

Jude Niroshan

Thank you all

Damkerng T.

04:48

It's funny that even after I accidentally clicked on "Leave Close" (because I was thinking of "Leave Open"), I was still able to correct my action by clicking "reopen". :-)

But the history would record that I voted to "Leave Close". :(

In any case, a lot of my votes are done outside of the review queues anyway.

Which I think the site won't count those votes in my stats, so no badges for it, but that's okay.

user62015

05:10

Hi! @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

user62015

D. Having managed the (1)/ team of two (2) years, he knew (3)/ his players well. (4)/No error (5)

Answer is 2

Damkerng T.

for two years

Is that (2)?

user62015

Okay.

Great.

Thank you so much.

Damkerng T.

Not a problem!

user62015

05:12

B. Martha missed her dog (1)/ who died of a (2) skin infection at a (3)/ very young age. (4)/ No error (5)

Answer is 1

Why?

Damkerng T.

I can't see anything wrong with Martha missed her dog, but this can be context dependent.

user62015

Yes.

Any suggestion or any other part where you can see the error.

Damkerng T.

There are two points, but I don't think they're serious ones.

One is who for the dog.

user62015

Okay.

Damkerng T.

Another is the tense, I think the sentence may read better with had died.

user62015

05:16

yes.

I was thinking same but the answer made me confused.

Damkerng T.

05:38

@user62015 I can come up with an explanation that makes (1) the answer (after dropping my brain down about a foot, I guess you may have to do this at times in these exams). I think the question wants Martha has missed her dog.

I believe that you won't find such a question in higher quality exams.

Nathan Tuggy

Maybe they're trying to get you to say "misses".

Damkerng T.

Misses would work too.

I think the problem with this kind of test is that they assume a context in their minds which sometimes turns out to be not a practical or common one.

I'm sure that the questions I've seen in GMAT/TOEFL/IELTS are more carefully designed.

jimsug

05:58

@DamkerngT. Well, those questions are designed to have an answer. Generally, the planning process looks something like:

> 1. Identify the learning outcome we want to test
2. Determine what a response that demonstrates achievement of that outcome would look like
3. Devise an answer that will elicit that response, if and only if the outcome has been achieved.

Damkerng T.

07:36

0

Q: The type of the one-paragraph writing

Can I call a "one-paragraph writing" an essay or not? Here is the question type. Write a paragraph on " My Mother " by using the ideas given below. Write your paragraph in the spare sheet provoded. - who your mother is - how old is she - what is she - what she looks like - her complexion - how ma...

word-meaning

That doesn't sound like a real writing exercise.

> Write a paragraph on " My Mother " by using the ideas given below. Write your paragraph in the spare sheet provoded. - who your mother is - how old is she - what is she - what she looks like - her complexion - how many children she has - how she looks after the children - her hobby and habits - why you love and respect her - anything else you wish to say

Damkerng T.

10:43

@J.R. Sir, I would like to have your answer to this tricky question. — RuchirM 47 secs ago

That's a real problem of our stack, imho.

We don't have enough knowledgeable users to write all the answers.

No wonder we have lots of good comments. :P

Damkerng T.

11:21

-1

A: What does "Re:" in a business letter mean?

i will like to apply for a job in your establishment.

One more delete, and it'll be gone. (I think)

agent5566

11:52

hi folks

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Maulik V

yes, what's the matter @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV I think I should be the one who should ask you that.

By the way, long time no see. (in here)

Maulik V

What is your take on the example created?

Damkerng T.

For everyone else, I think we're going to continue our discussion in:

-1

A: When I was in trouble he borrowed me money.When I was in trouble he lent me money

No problem with the second sentence; the twist is in the first one! IMO, the meaning is the same because of the pronoun 'me' after the words borrowed/lent. "He bought me a doll" - he does the action of 'buying'. And 'you' are the one who's receiving. So, "he borrowed me money" - he does the act...

@MaulikV You tell me. What do you think about your example?

Maulik V

12:04

I cannot clarify further... I edited twice... making it simpler than ever

Damkerng T.

I gave you a hint. You insisted on your example, I think.

@MaulikV That He borrowed me money means the same as He lent me money?

Maulik V

He buys a doll. He buys it for me = He bought me a doll
He borrows some money. He borrows it for me = He borrowed me some money

Damkerng T.

Why do you think you or we should recommend that to our learners?

Maulik V

I don't say both the sentences are the 'same'

Damkerng T.

> IMO, the meaning is the same because ...

Maulik V

12:06

where...?

wait

Damkerng T.

I think your first revision was even worse.

Maulik V

OHHHHHHH

Damkerng T.

> The meaning is the same because of the pronoun 'me' after the words borrowed/lent.

Maulik V

(slapping me)

damn

wait wait

Damkerng T.

J.R. dropped you a hint. I dropped you a hint.

Maulik V

12:08

wait wait

Damkerng T.

waiting... :-)

If I may ask you bluntly, did you down-vote Khan's answer too?

Maulik V

yes, because he said it's incorrect grammatically

no he said both are

Damkerng T.

And you think what he said was incorrect (because he said He borrowed me money was incorrect)?

Maulik V

he said both are incorrect..grammatically

Damkerng T.

> The first sentence is incorrect grammatically, whereas the seond one is correct.

That's what Khan wrote.

How could that mean that both examples are incorrect?

Maulik V

12:13

ah... edited!

he edited

Damkerng T.

I see.

Maulik V

it should have some notification

see there... I would have reversed

Damkerng T.

nods

Maulik V

so, how's life?

How's Hagu?

:)

Damkerng T.

Same old, same old. He's okay.

How's your family?

Maulik V

12:15

Quite stable now...

after mom died

Damkerng T.

Good. Stable is good. I remember... Sorry about that.

A year and a half already, I think.

Maulik V

things aren't easy when you don't have any kins...and added to that even parents

Damkerng T.

nods

Maulik V

their existence support us..though they are not actively participating in your day-to-day decisions

Damkerng T.

Each of them has their own problems too, except for the luckier ones. :-)

I mean, generally.

Maulik V

12:17

hhmm

Damkerng T.

I just met my brother in person a couple weeks ago.

Maulik V

I'm thinking to carry forward my passion for this language.. preparing to becoming IELTS tutor

okay...where?

Damkerng T.

Oh, actually, I think it was only last week.

My aunt's house.

Maulik V

I mean place, the city

the same country?

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV Oh, what about your current jobs?

Maulik V

12:18

or it was kinda some vacation?

my current job - content manager...but the company is not doing well

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV Yes. Living in the same city doesn't mean that we will meet each other very often.

Maulik V

haha true that...in today's world!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Maulik V

so thinking to dig some other source of income

;)

Damkerng T.

I see.

Maulik V

12:20

company sacked 120 employees!

Damkerng T.

Whoa!

Maulik V

And I was saved (this time?) :P

Damkerng T.

I hope there won't be a next round.

Maulik V

You never know

But I get alert!

Damkerng T.

Like they say, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Maulik V

12:21

that's always true!

I'm prepared

Damkerng T.

Good! :D

Maulik V

So, plan for India some time!

It's nearer ...haha

Damkerng T.

You mean yours or mine?

Maulik V

yours...

You plan for India...

before I plan for Thailand! haha

Thailand is on my list

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. Hmm... actually I have some points to spend before the end of this year.

@MaulikV Nice!

I'm not even sure if I can use the (time-sharing) points myself this year.

Maulik V

12:25

what are points?

Damkerng T.

I'll call my agent and see how many points are required for a place in India.

@MaulikV Well, this time-sharing operates on points.

Maulik V

oh..

how does it work?

Damkerng T.

A customer buys what they call a "room".

Maulik V

okay...

Damkerng T.

But actually, what a customer gets would actually be some points every a year or two.

Maulik V

12:26

I see

Damkerng T.

I bought a cheaper one (but not the cheapest), so I will have some good points every two years.

The thing is, if I don't use them, they will expire.

Maulik V

and you 'encash' points?

Damkerng T.

Basically, yes.

Maulik V

hhmmm

But India is nice to visit...

Damkerng T.

I'm not very sure what you meant by "encash"; what I meant was "spend".

Maulik V

12:28

You'll see and then believe that yes, God does exist!

Damkerng T.

Points can't be converted back to cash.

Maulik V

Or else, how India functions! lol

but you can use the points somehow

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV I heard about the mob last week, but I haven't followed the news over there. How is the situation now?

@MaulikV Yes! And I have only a few months to think and spend them. :D

Maulik V

Oh..then seriously think coming here

I'm your host for the Western India!

;)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Thanks in advance! (in case I chose to go there)

Maulik V

12:30

Ah...riots... they just happened as a silly move

Just a few meters away, the mob burnt a bus

and a police van!

few meters away from my house*

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's scary!

Maulik V

yeah...and I dared going 'in' it and click photos

:P

Damkerng T.

LOL

Maulik V

And successfully did it

Are you on facebook?

pics are there!

Damkerng T.

Not really.

I kinda have an abandoned account.

Maulik V

12:32

so, it must be the same with twitter!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't think I use the same handle.

(I can't even remember my Facebook login!)

Maulik V

For the past couple of months, busy with my apartment (newly purchased)

interior you know...

it keeps me all time busy

Damkerng T.

nods -- I have a tip.

Maulik V

And those guys...if you don't pay attention ruins it up

carry on

Damkerng T.

If you're thinking about wallpaper, don't have a cat. :P

Maulik V

12:34

hahah

I already got one...and it's not cat's

My newly purchased 4K Cinema 3D TV looks sexxyy!

on it

Damkerng T.

Oh, I still don't have a 3D TV.

But I don't like watching 3D movies much.

Maulik V

it's worth... but the problem is ..you don't have anything telecasted in 3D

let me tell you ... I hate 3D in cinemas...because three'r no good effects

Damkerng T.

I think there are some 3D channels in India, aren't there?

Maulik V

no...unfortunately not a single!

Damkerng T.

Aww

Maulik V

12:36

we don't have even 4K movies

haha....

But I went for that...because it's ultra hd

so hd looks better in 4k as compared to full hd tv

Damkerng T.

You bought it for the future. :-)

Maulik V

exactly

but there are a few demo clips... one of them is my favorite Polar Express (animated)

there, train almost touches your nose! :P

Damkerng T.

I remember that one. Oh, they have it in 3D, too? Must be nice.

Maulik V

I love that movie...

as an adult lol

You know what...I discuss everything I do here on ELL with my daughter Rhyme

Damkerng T.

Good for her.

Maulik V

12:39

She 'knows' StoneyB, JR. Damkerng (the one with a cat), FumbleFingers

Damkerng T.

LOL

Maulik V

she's 9

Damkerng T.

The younger the better (to learn a second language).

Maulik V

Here, in our state Gujarat...the least importance is given to English... in fact, if you try speak in English, people around you start laughing and criticizing...

The culture is worst

though gradually changing

Damkerng T.

Hmm... that's weird. I mean, I think most people there need to use English at work too.

Maulik V

12:41

According to them, if you speak in English, you 'don't' respect your mother tongue!

Yes, in offices, English means 'non friendly' language that is used only for clients

;)

Damkerng T.

@MaulikV If that's the case, I think I share their feelings. -- I mean, we should care both of our languages, first or second(s).

BTW, what is your first language again? Is it Hindi?

Maulik V

So, I advise them... that if you start speaking in English, you'll get respect from your colleague. There's some logic - you speak in English ONLY with clients. And with clients, you talk respectfully...with good words...so in English, you have limited thesaurus ...so whenever you speak in English, you speak nothing but good words...

so speak in English, get respect

lol - here no one can abuse satisfactorily in English because they know only good words

haha they have to revert back to their 'regional avatar'

Damkerng T.

Regional avatar? Is that a thing?

Maulik V

yes...

typical Gujarati .... if someone's from the state of Gujarat

Damkerng T.

I see, so Hindi is your 2nd language?

Maulik V

12:45

yes

first is Gujarati, second is Hindi...third is (forcefully then...) Englsh

Damkerng T.

nods

Maulik V

Okay, sir... I'll take your leave

The day 'ends'

Damkerng T.

I'm not a sir!

Maulik V

You are... :)

Damkerng T.

No, no, no!

Maulik V

12:47

I respect everyone with knowledge

cya...take care! :)

Damkerng T.

No need to call me sir. I mean, sometimes it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Take care!

Maulik V

okaay!!!

Damkerng T.

And say hello to your family for me, too. :-)

Damkerng T.

12:59

o/ @StoneyB

Araucaria

13:15

@StoneyB I was wondering if you'd read the answers on this page. We just closed a quesion asking about me versus my with gerunds and linked it to this. But both answers on there are unhelpful and the top one is, well, erm, the minus sign seems to be missing of the votes there or something ...

@StoneyB This doesn't seem like a good page to link the new question to, imo. Any chance of a reopen?

@StoneyB Here's the new question.

It looks like a perfect question for you or F.E. ...

StoneyB

14:06

@Araucaria Mea culpa. It was an injudicious choice of precedent. ... That question's been answered by practically everybody on the site at some point or another, including me, F.E.--and you! Which of these do you like:

http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/19038
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/13311
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/65184
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/37280
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/46411

Araucaria

14:28

@StoneyB Well, I reckon, in the current OP's question things are complicated by the distinct possibility that me coming up the water is not a clause but a noun post-modified by a participle, it seems to me. And if this is what the OP wanted then my would be wrong. What do you think?

@StoneyB Or it might be like I saw his eating sandwiches when the OP wants I saw him eating sandwiches.

Araucaria

14:42

@StoneyB I'm not up with postmodifying participles and that stuff, so my explanation above might be shaky (erm, aka wrong).

Freddy

15:03

@dam sir suits you. Sir Damkerng

In Gujarat, by sir we normally mean teacher(or person with knowledge)

@MaulikV were are you from?

I mean which city

@MaulikV I kind of disagree with "English as non-friendly language". Because I normally use English or Gujarati (I don't use Hindi much) and I have noticed people respect you if u start talking in English instead of Gujarati.

Damkerng T.

15:18

@Freddy I'm more comfortable with just Damkerng. :-)

Freddy

hahaha

Damkerng T.

Maybe I should try Baymax as my username/avatar for a change. :P

Freddy

looks good

Damkerng T.

I know, right! :D

Freddy

I was thinking about Chewbacca

Damkerng T.

15:22

LOL

Freddy

One thing I have noticed which is different in India is, We normally use sir for male teacher. Madame for female teacher. Uncle & Aunty for friends parents or neighbours(sometimes even for strangers)

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guessed that much.

Freddy

but that is incorrect, right?

Damkerng T.

I wouldn't say that it's incorrect, because that's the norm in India. But outside India, I think it's a little weird.

Unless I were Sir Elton John, or Sir Sean Connery, who really are a sir!

In any case, I don't think using sir will make your English not good in any way, just different. And there are some real occasions (like in military, hotels, etc.) that sir could be the right choice of word.

@DamkerngT. The problem is old bean that the sentence could be completely grammatical., couldn't it? For example, "If you go to the library could you borrow me a book please?". Or "If you haven't got any money I could borrow you some from the bank". — Araucaria 16 mins ago

@Araucaria Isn't that grammatical only in some dialects?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. No. The reason that it's blocked in the case of borrow when you want to say give me a book is simply that borrow has the meaning of take something temporarily. So I can't borrow you a book if you are the both the beneficiary, the person who gets the book and the person I take it from. It's contradictory. However you can be the beneficiary if I take the book from somewhere or someone else. Am I making sense?

Damkerng T.

15:38

I guess so. That's actually the same point Maulik made, and that's actually the same point I think J.R. recommended against (i.e. stick with the other choice). It's the pattern borrow me something in the sense of "borrow something for me" that we can find exactly only 1 result in COCA.

So, I doubt how acceptable it is in standard English.

Nathan Tuggy

Awfully acceptable.

"Grab me a Mountain Dew while you're up" is another very common example.

Damkerng T.

That sounds very funny to my ear!

Though I think it's perfectly understandable.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Compare with Can you take me out some cash.

@DamkerngT. John Lawler's post here might be interesting for you!

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria Is borrow in there?

Araucaria

See how I just wrote you in a link there?

@DamkerngT. No, but there's some similar constructions and he explains the semantics quite well. It's worth a read imo. And it's short! (compared with some of my posts, anyway!)

Damkerng T.

15:47

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're trying to say that I'll open you the door is grammatical.

Hmm... I'll fix you the car. vs. I'll fix you a meal.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. No it's more like I'll fix you a meal. If you read the OP's examples you can compare it with "I'll buy a coffee for you"--->"I'll buy you a coffee" (you get the coffee). "I'll borrow a book for you from the library"--->"I'll borrow you a book from the library"(you get the book).

Damkerng T.

Are you saying that "where the Benefactive object of for ends up possessing the direct object, the sentences can undergo Dative" is possible for any possible verb?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. And "I'll write in a link for you"---> "I'll write you in a link"

Damkerng T.

And "John took Mary responsibility."?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Hmm, I don't really hang with dative labels for English ;) but more or less, yes.

@DamkerngT. Mary doesn't get the responsibility there, John does.

Damkerng T.

15:56

== "Mary was taken responsibility by John."?

"I'll borrow you a car."

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. No, you'd need a for in there to make that prepositional passive work - and it would be a bit awkward, imo.

Damkerng T.

== "You'll be borrowed a car by me."?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Yes, "I'll borrow you a car from the parking lot"

Damkerng T.

The passive version (Mary and John) is from JL's pdf file.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. I think in the right context it might be ok.

Damkerng T.

15:59

So You'll be borrowed a car by me is correct, too?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. I don't much care for the "by me" there but the rest seems ok.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

But seriously, who would use that sentence?

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria As a passive version of I'll borrow you a car?

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Yes

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