ELL's Cabin

Anonymous

10:03

Luckily, Japanese doesn't have anything like backshift :-)

Anonymous

Say, why do you suppose someone might pretend to be a native speaker online?

Anonymous

Like, let's say that ① they have no profit motive for doing so, and ② it's obvious they're not.

Anonymous

What do you suppose the thought process behind that decision might be?

Anonymous

I don't get it.

Jim Reynolds

10:19

On a site like this?

Well, you must have some theories?

You are not supposing humans are primarily rational creatures, are you?

Anonymous

11:22

No, but that doesn't mean I understand them! :-)

Freddy

12:27

hola

currently listening play.spotify.com/user/topsify/playlist/6Qf2sXTjlH3HH30Ijo6AUp

Jim Reynolds

12:59

Hola.

Freddy

@jim how's your day going?

Jim Reynolds

@sna well, to try to gain credibility.

Or maybe as part of an effort to play around with or even to a more or less delusional extent, to disassociate from their identity and experience being someone else. Maybe.

After all, you might recall when @Dam announced that he had become a female robot.

In his case, however, it was quite real. He only needed to change out a few hardware pieces and run a subroutine.

Jim Reynolds

13:31

It's absolutely wonderful. It's a beautiful world and a beautiful life, isn't it friend?

O.o

Freddy

13:57

nods

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

14:15

Joining seven people here . . .

Yeah, and end up talking to yourself.

Freddy

we all are(7 users) inactive @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hush, @Freddy's being inactive.

Freddy

Nowadays I am seeing people are just smart everywhere like smart phone, smart car, smart bed, etc

I don't like that at all

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yeah. Dumb is more fun.

Freddy

Exactly, Why people want a bed to be smart or a car or anything else?!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

14:24

Because they consider that smart?

Freddy

,all that dumb stuff can't do anything without human are smart!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Huh?

Freddy

we can consider bot like @dam as smart

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Can we?

@Dam are you smart?

Freddy

he can do stuff himself so...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

14:28

I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure @Dam's dependent on @Hagu.

o/ @Cat!

Freddy

who is @Hagu?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Though I wonder if you're really awake.

Freddy

@cat hola

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Freddy @Dam is @Hagu's pet robot.

Catija

No.@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Not really.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

14:31

@Catija Sleep-talking?

Catija

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Sure. We can call it that. I have to take my cat to the vet.

Freddy

google.co.in/…

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh wait . . . There is hope . . . I mean, it's 9 O'clock in the US now. I thought it'd be 5 a.m. or what.

Freddy

hagu -----> preety woman :p

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Remove that before @Dam sees it.

He's a loyal pet ya know.

Catija

14:33

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M No. 3am when I went to bed. 9:30 now.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Laptop in the bed, eh?

Catija

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M No... I'm not a fan of that... I was sitting on my couch.

Freddy

SMART couch!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Good; everyone loves stability.

Freddy

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

14:39

Sheesh, reminds me of Wall-E.

Freddy

@Catija what do think about smart

19 mins ago, by Freddy

Nowadays I am seeing people are just smart everywhere like smart phone, smart car, smart bed, etc

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Or rather, what do you think about the smartware . . .

Freddy

I thought there was problem with headphones. But I realize it is slow internet

Catija

I'm not a fan. There's an older (and I'll admit, outdated) meaning of "being smart" and it relates to talking back, usually to an elder. "Don't be smart with me.".

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Of course you aren't a fan. I'm guessing you're a human.

Jim Reynolds

15:40

My phone just told me: I don't need to do what you say

And I think it's dating an Apple just to see if it can upset me.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Did it call you old-timer?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Your smartphone is being too smart this time. :-)

Better use Bananaphone. :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Freddy got a bit philosophical up there.

About all these smart phones, smart stuff whatever.

As if he's seen Edison's time.

And I was sitting there, I mean here, saying what the heck is this guy talking about?

Damkerng T.

Oh, Spotify needs us to register first, too, now.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Or what?

They'll send a T-2000?

Damkerng T.

15:49

Prolly a smart toilet.

@JimReynolds I like that he discusses it case by case.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16:31

Hullo @YummySushi!

Welcome to our chatroom!

Damkerng T.

Hello, @YummySushi!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Unfortunately, to talk, you'll need 20 reputation points.

Damkerng T.

You can change the write access.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Wait, @Dam you could give them access . . . Right

Damkerng T.

I can't! :D

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16:36

@Dam it gives an error. :(

Damkerng T.

Huh?

Try the ID 157481.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

It says their rep isn't enough.

Damkerng T.

Oh, wait, 21714.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Eh?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That message is a lie.

Yes.

Damkerng T.

I thin the title What do native speakers think of word root? is a bit misleading.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16:39

You thin?

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Not sure what happened. May need mod power.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Yes. I think it was more about how a learner should learn words.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

True.

Hey, I'm pretty sure it doesn't sting!

Give. them. access. to. OVERFLOW!

Damkerng T.

Okay, I'll try, but only temporarily.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Of course. I think it's gonna be as long as a discussion.

Damkerng T.

Okay, I got the same error: Users must have at least 20 reputation to talk.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16:43

I hate you SE.

Nothing happened

Maybe they like being hated, or they can't ban me.

Damkerng T.

Hey, I just noticed the message!

> Users must have at least 20 reputation to talk

Interesting!

I think if they wanted to use reputation as a unit, it should be in the plural (reputations) in that sentence.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

REPUTATION?!

Damkerng T.

Otherwise, they should add points!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to cry or laugh.

@DamkerngT. Somehow, the word has changed to mean repz points over time. I'll call it modern English.

Damkerng T.

They could fix it, if they want to.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M nods -- I'm fine with reputation meaning rep point, but I expected reputations in there.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16:48

Maybe it's countably uncountable?

books.google.com/ngrams/… - Hey! Amn't isn't non-existent!

Damkerng T.

For example, I would expect "Two beers, please." not "Two ?*beer*, please."

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I remember that it's used in some dialects.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I would expect two bears please.

@DamkerngT. I wouldn't expect any of them. I'd expect two glasses [of beer] please.

Damkerng T.

Oh! But things like coffee, beer, and water can be used countable-like like that in many dialects.

Probably in all major dialects.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I know. Didn't say it's wrong.

Still, not what I'd expect.

Sometimes, I'm just too standard.

user116848

Hi all!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

17:00

\o

user116848

So, did anyone miss me?

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M You can tell more people to upvote @YummySushi's question.

Just one more is enough.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

How?

Comment and beg, I mean ask, for upvotes?

That's, not gonna work.

Hey @Arrow could you do me a favor?

user116848

Yes?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Please upvote this:

3

Q: What do native speakers think of word root?

As the number of English vocabularies required by my English literature teacher is increasing, I am now confronting a great problem memorizing them in a short time. Simple words are okay to me, but it's especially difficult when I come across words with crazy suffixes and prefixes or with tricky ...

learning

user116848

17:05

Reading...

user116848

Did you upvote it?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yes.

user116848

Okay +1

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Thanks!

@Dam it's done.

Now we can call 'em here.

@YummySushi please come to chat.

Damkerng T.

Now you can fix the access. :-)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

17:07

We'll discuss your issue eloquently.

@DamkerngT. No need now; they can talk talk now.

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Eloquently, meticulously, superfluously!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hey is this another version of stronger, braver, more powerful!?

user116848

My weekly story guys:

user116848

in The Overlook Hotel, 20 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Superman flying over the Rockies

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Arrowfar Do you want me to be frank about feedback?

user116848

17:15

Yes sure.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Very nice story, bad title.

user116848

:)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

You just let the cat outta the bag in the very beginning @Arrow!

You shouldn't have said superman.

user116848

Well, they gave this topic you know :)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

This story asked for a mysterious title IMO.

user116848

17:24

in The Overlook Hotel, Jul 21 at 18:23, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Writing Exercise 2015-07-21: Describe how it feels to be Superman flying over the Rockies (10 minutes)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

K, but the title needn't be that!

user116848

But while writing we changed it to simply "Superman flying over the Rockies".

Anonymous

20:40

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Right, it's part of certain Irish and Scottish English dialects.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Interesting.

Anonymous

Most dialects have aren't I, though, in which amn't has turned into aren't

Anonymous

It's very exceptional though; note that *I aren't is ungrammatical

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@snailboat BTW sorry 'bout my snarky attitude back at Overflow.

Anonymous

My last encounter with amn't was this week, in fact

Anonymous

20:42

Although you could go a lifetime in the US without ever hearing it

Anonymous

Certainly it's not grammatical in AmE, and I think many speakers here would be surprised to hear that it's used anywhere

Anonymous

We do have ain't, which is certainly part of my dialect, but other chatters have informed me that it's all but dead in AmE . . .

Anonymous

Although ain't is famously non-standard.

Catija

@snailboat I almost made it a lifetime... but I suppose I still haven't "heard" it.

Hi :D

Anonymous

@Catija It's not even used by all Irish English speakers.

Anonymous

20:47

Hello!

Catija

@snailboat Texans are very protective of their ain't

And our y'all.

Anonymous

@Catija I actually grew up with both of those forms, even though I'm from further north, though I might not use them with the same frequency or in exactly the same ways

Anonymous

I mostly stopped saying y'all as a teenager.

Anonymous

So I only say it on occasion now . . . I say you all a lot :-)

Anonymous

Hey, the Wikipedia page on Hiberno English doesn't mention amn't!

Catija

20:53

@snailboat I say you... and then I clarify.

Anonymous

My parents did grow up a little bit further south.

Catija

@snailboat Like Australia?

Anonymous

Like, still Illinois, but not around Chicago ;-)

Anonymous

I guess little bit can have lots of definitions . . . :-)

Anonymous

Like, it can refer to an insipid cartoon from the 80s:

Anonymous

21:04

The Littl' Bits

►

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Different usage of "that"

In my native language, Persian, we do much use "Ke" which almost corresponds to "which, who, that" in relative clauses and many other cases (maybe in conversations to start or continue a narration or relate somethings ..., I myself don't know why or where) Then, I would like to know how much it ...

sentence-construction that

Probably a perfect question for @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M. Just a thought.

Anonymous

It's not one questions, though. It's many questions.

Catija

Reminds me makes me think of what would happen if you smashed together Rainbow Brite and the Gummi Bears.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guess it could be one question in Persian (Ke).

Catija

@snailboat Chicago? That's not south at all.

Anonymous

21:06

@Catija Right!

Anonymous

I grew up around Chicago.

Anonymous

Gummi Bears A Capella

►

Anonymous

I think this is by the Brown Derbies.

Catija

@snailboat I'm just surprised you know what the Gummi Bears is.

Anonymous

Hey, I was little in the 80s! ;-)

Anonymous

21:09

Sometime in the early 90s I decided I hated television, so I did my best not to watch it at all.

Anonymous

But in the 80s, I loved Saturday morning cartoons and such.

Catija

I've been looking through Meta... and this seems really good... lots of upvotes... no answers or even comments until I commented... Really confused why we haven't tried to implement this somehow yet.

13

Q: Custom off-topic reasons community wiki thread

Edit I'm not sure how to either move this forward or close it out as not worth pursuing, so I'm going to tickle it and see what happens. I think we need to find some consensus on the points below, but I'm not sure who can "pull the trigger". I'm a little worried that I quashed all discussion by ...

discussion

Anonymous

I hear that Saturday morning cartoons are no longer a thing, though.

Catija

@snailboat That was fun.

@snailboat I heard that, too... You remember the interstitials? The "after these messages we'll be right back"... things... There was one with three singers and they bent over and their hair (afros, I think) traded?

Anonymous

Oh, I do!

Anonymous

21:12

I can still hear the melodies in my head :-)

Catija

And that's when they played some of the Schoolhouse Rock stuff, right?

I still have the Preamble memorized thanks to that song.

Damkerng T.

@Catija I really love their part of speech songs.

Catija

The Eight Parts of Speech

►

Anonymous

*sniffle* Poor determinatives will probably never get a song . . .

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes!

@snailboat Aww

Ugh! That's a weird medley!

Anonymous

21:17

@DamkerngT. The user I obliquely mentioned last night, the one who was pretending to be a native speaker on Japanese.SE, tried to correct someone who actually was a native speaker, and a flame war erupted in the comments, and now they're deleting their account . . .

Anonymous

The inflammatory comments are deleted now, but I guess that user is leaving.

Damkerng T.

Oh! Which one was leaving?

Anonymous

@Catija I also have some stereotypically Canadian features in my native dialect, like final eh

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The one who was pretending to be a native speaker. I still wonder why people do that.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

grammar rock mr.morton

►

Anonymous

21:18

It's not like being a non-native speaker is a bad thing.

Damkerng T.

♪ Mr. Morton talks to his cat. Mr. Morton talks ♫

Catija

I've almost run out of being surprised at people and how they seem to think they can get away with crap like that.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Some people seem to think that doing so will get them more creditability, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Credibility

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks!

Anonymous

21:20

You might need to make a special note of that one

Damkerng T.

This is a special note. :D

Catija

I could more easily pass myself off as a physics professor than as a native speaker of anything other than English... and even then I have some doubts.

Anonymous

@Catija Well, it would be a really hard thing to do. Easier online than in person, I think, since native-like pronunciation is generally more difficult to acquire than native-like grammar or vocabulary

Catija

@snailboat That's true. Particularly with some grammar corrections in word processing programs.

Anonymous

In this case I had my doubts on day one, but I didn't say anything because, well, rude? But things played out without my interacting

Damkerng T.

21:23

I think in a face-to-face conversation, only the first few sentences can tell a lot about the level of a learner.

Anonymous

I've actually had more than one person on ELL suggest that I'm not a native speaker of English, by the way. It's funny hanging around here sometimes.

Anonymous

That gets me worried, 'cause if I'm not a native speaker of the only language I've spoken since birth, then just how bad am I at those other languages I've been learning by comparison? ;-)

Damkerng T.

Playing a dialect detective is not as easy as one might think, I think, even for a native speaker.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But it's fun!

Damkerng T.

We can under-guess, over-guess, but yes, it's real fun!

Anonymous

21:26

Like, the other day when I said someone was an Indian English speaker, I felt pretty certain.

Anonymous

But there are other dialects in that area which are similar but not actually Indian.

Anonymous

All I could really say with certainty is that they weren't a native speaker of AmE or BrE.

Catija

@snailboat Maybe what they mean is that you speak it and understand the grammatical concepts too well to be a native.

Like how they thought Eliza was Hungarian because she spoke English too perfectly.

Anonymous

@Catija Oh, that sounds much more flattering than how I remember it! ;-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Most (all?) of them are in South Asia?

@Catija An interesting point!

Anonymous

21:27

@DamkerngT. Yeah, like Pakistani English, for example, is known to share many of its identifying characteristics with Indian English

Catija

You Did It (My Fair Lady - 1964)

►

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes, I remember that I thought a teacher in a YouTube clip was a non-native speaker because she spoke too perfectly!

Anonymous

Well, it's true that hyper-articulate careful pronunciation, the sort you get by practicing enunciation for hours on end in front of a mirror and with a tape recorder, is not the sort of natural pronunciation anyone acquires natively.

Damkerng T.

@Catija The Rhine in spine minely styne on the pline!

Anonymous

Although in terms of theory, careful pronunciation has a very important role.

Anonymous

21:30

We think of careful pronunciation as the basic way English words are pronounced. The reduced and connected pronunciation we use all the time without realizing? We think of that as secondary, even though it's more common.

Damkerng T.

I think I must've missed something in that line. Probably an s and maybe a preposition?

Anonymous

The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

Catija

@snailboat I was about to correct you :P

Anonymous

Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with my poor little brain today.

Anonymous

Probably the same thing that's wrong every day :-)

Anonymous

21:31

I had to actually say it out loud to get it right.

Anonymous

I didn't click the video link.

Catija

@snailboat Oh, the video isn't for that one. It's for when Higgins is explaining how Eliza was taken for Hungarian royalty.

Anonymous

Ah!

Damkerng T.

I think the best way for a learner is to over-enunciate everything, and then reduce their pronunciation to make it sound more natural.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That could be . . . I'm not familiar with any studies on the topic

Damkerng T.

21:33

@snailboat It was something I can remember, but not very vividly.

Anonymous

I wonder if @Araucaria would have a useful perspective to share on learning careful and reduced pronunciation

Catija

The problem I was always aware of is that some sounds simply don't exist in some languages...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'm sure he must have some useful inputs on this!

@Catija Exactly!

Anonymous

@Catija We tend to relate sounds in L2s with the sounds in our L1s

Anonymous

Japanese speakers learning English relate both /l/ and /r/ to their /r/ (which isn't like either of English /l/ or /r/)

Catija

21:35

@snailboat Ok. Sure. Whatever that means. I know that many Asian languages don't distinguish between L/R and that's about it.

Anonymous

Hmm, maybe I can explain it a little better.

Anonymous

When we're really little, we can distinguish the sounds used in every language.

Catija

@snailboat But it's regional... in the north it's more one way and in the south it's more the other, right?

Anonymous

Like, less than six months old.

Catija

@snailboat Oh, sure. I've heard that... so if you hear sounds when you're little, you'll be able to replicate them later.

Anonymous

21:37

But what happens is that we hear the sounds of our native language(s), and over time we train our brains to listen for those sounds specifically, and we get really efficient at those.

Anonymous

Japanese speakers don't grow up with both L and R, so their brains aren't trained at a young age to distinguish those sounds.

Anonymous

So when they hear English L and R sounds, they both go into the same bucket, the one labeled R.

Anonymous

And they have trouble remembering which is which, and pronounce them both the same.

Anonymous

They can overcome this as an adult, because we stay neuroplastic (our brains can keep changing and learning new things when we're older)

Damkerng T.

For me, the voiced-unvoiced pairs are very challenging.

Anonymous

21:38

But it's more difficult than learning as a child.

Damkerng T.

Most Thais think /th/ or /r/ are difficult, but no, it's voiced vs. unvoiced.

Catija

My French teacher always said that singers were really good at picking up phonetics because they have to learn so many languages...

Anonymous

Because the child is a blank slate, and the adult brain is highly trained. It's very efficient at hearing that one sound and processing it in the way that's relevant for Japanese.

Anonymous

@Catija Anyone can learn phonetics later in life, too. It takes more work, but we can all change our brains :-)

Anonymous

But some people are much better at it than others.

Anonymous

21:40

My housemate is a natural mimic, and the sounds of any language she hears come naturally to her.

Anonymous

Me, not so much.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks to our myelin, or some substance that snailboat mentioned a few days ago.

Catija

I think it's so funny when people (like Eliza) can't even hear that what they're saying is different than what someone else is saying.

Anonymous

@Catija Which is absolutely a thing!

Anonymous

Actually, that's really common :-)

Catija

21:41

@snailboat Oh, I know it is... I just think it's funny. I've tried to correct people's pronunciation and they think they're already saying it correctly.

Damkerng T.

I think most people know that it's different, but can't tell how or what the difference is.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's definitely true that there are differences like that―you can tell it's different, but you're not sure what.

Anonymous

It's equally true that many differences are simply not perceived.

Damkerng T.

nods

nods (again)

Anonymous

How many times have you heard something like "It's easy for someone speaking language A to learn language B because A contains all the sounds of B"?

Anonymous

21:43

Not sure about you, but I've heard that a lot.

Anonymous

And it's never been true once.

Damkerng T.

Unless A and B share the same set of sounds!

(thinking about Thai and Laotian)

Anonymous

I'm not saying it couldn't be true in principle.

Anonymous

But every time I've ever heard someone say it, it's been false.

Damkerng T.

Such a pair is rare, I think.

Anonymous

21:44

English and Japanese, for example, don't have any sounds pronounced the same way.

Damkerng T.

Even French is unlike German or Italian.

Anonymous

They have lots of sounds that are close enough we can relate them to one another :-)

Anonymous

But none are actually the same.

Catija

I just found out yesterday that Swedish and Danish are mutually intelligible... so coworkers will speak to each other in their own languages without translating.

Anonymous

I did not know that!

Damkerng T.

21:45

Interesting!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. French is very unlike German, from my perspective.

Anonymous

French is a little bit more like Italian, but if we're going to compare two Romance languages, I'd go for Portuguese and Spanish :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I think I'm not very good at telling the two apart!

Catija

@snailboat It was in reference to a TV show, so it's possible the info is bad but I saw several people claiming to be from one country or the other and agreeing to it.

Anonymous

I've studied Spanish but not Portuguese.

Anonymous

21:47

@Catija Wikipedia seems to agree.

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language#Classification

Catija

@snailboat The pronunciation is extremely different. I think the Portuguese pronunciation sounds a lot like Russian, actually.

Anonymous

@Catija Yeah, Portuguese is not intelligible to me.

Anonymous

But y'know, that's normal―usually it's a lot easier for Portuguese speakers to understand Spanish than the other way around.

Catija

My mom lived in the Azores for a couple of years and when I visited her, I got to hear a good amount of Portugal Portuguese...

Anonymous

21:49

Sometimes "mutually intelligible" works more in one direction than the other :-)

Catija

@snailboat Yeah, but when Portuguese say that, they're implying the Spaniards are just dumb.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's a very curious thing!

Anonymous

Well, I didn't mean anything like that . . .

Anonymous

But I've read about a number of examples of intelligibility working one way and not the other. It's one reason it's hard to decide what's a "language" and what's a "dialect".

Anonymous

The distinction is pretty arbitrary a lot of the time, anyway.

Anonymous

21:51

Cantonese and Mandarin aren't mutually intelligible at all (not even all varieties of Mandarin are mutually intelligible with one another), but they get called "dialects".

Catija

@snailboat I know. I was making a joke. As a Texan, I'm at least familiar with how Spanish sounds, so I'd talk to my mom's Portuguese coworkers (about Portuguese) and they'd joke with me about Spaniards.

Anonymous

@Catija Oh, I see :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, I'm not very good at Spanish, but I've heard it a lot. I haven't heard Portuguese much, though.

Anonymous

I don't know many Portuguese speakers.

Catija

@snailboat But they both write things the same way, right? That's why the caption so much TV?

Anonymous

21:52

@Catija Well, sorta, sorta not.

Anonymous

In theory, everyone's s'posed to write everything like it's Mandarin.

Anonymous

But Cantonese has a number of vocabulary and grammar differences that make it not always work to simply pronounce it like it's Cantonese.

Anonymous

And there are common words in Cantonese that there's no official way to write . . .

Catija

@snailboat Interesting... so does that mean everyone who's literate in Cantonese also knows Mandarin?

Damkerng T.

A very difficult question!

Anonymous

21:55

@Catija Well, "literate in Cantonese" is not something that China really wants to exist . . .

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=6501

Damkerng T.

I guess the situation is similar to one between standard Thai and Southern Thai. Thanks to the Thai script that it's abugida, it's not difficult to write words existing only in Southern Thai in standard Thai.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sometimes there's no standard way to write Cantonese words.

Anonymous

There are people who believe Cantonese should not be written.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's a bit extreme!

But frankly, I don't think of Southern Thai as a written language either.

Anonymous

21:57

> Here in HK I've encountered people who have told me that Cantonese cannot be written and should not be written.
>
> I once told students in a sociolinguistics class I was teaching some years ago that I thought written Cantonese should be standardized and promoted as another Chinese variety. One of the students who was from the mainland and a teacher of Chinese language in HK could barely suppress her outrage, telling me if that were done then written Cantonese would challenge and compete with standard written Chinese and such a situation could not be allowed or tolerated.

Anonymous

(From the LL post I linked to above)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Politics is everywhere, even in languages!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, politics is actually a really big part of language.

Anonymous

We believe certain dialects are better than others.

Damkerng T.

Oh, right!

Catija

21:59

@snailboat Interesting.

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