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07:39
0
Q: I see a bus come

Joe KimIf you are at a bus stop, and see a bus coming, which version would you say, 1 or 2? I see a bus come. I see a bus coming. If it is #2, then what does #1 mean exactly?

0
Q: I hear a book fall

Joe Kim I hear a book fall. I hear a book falling. I hear a fall of a book. Which version is most natural?

It's not easy to cope with these constructions with just a few simple rules.
And each verb has its own flavor.
I should try to read more about systemic functional grammar.
One fun thing about English is that all of these are possible in the narrative present.
> a) I hear him snore.
b) I hear him snoring.
c) I hear his snore.
d) I hear his snoring.
08:42
@AmD I'm the downvoter. I downvoted this answer because of the tone This is silly in most situations implies. One thing that we all should not forget is that We'd recommend you to book your flight early is from a reputable dictionary. However, I'm more than willing to retract my downvote if this answer is edited to state something along the lines "This is silly in American English" instead. — Damkerng T. 28 mins ago
I looked into this issue and gathered more evidence around the web, which is probably worth a community wiki post, but I'm quite lazy now, so I'll just give some links to the results I found here. Here are the results of [recommend] you to [v*] on some corpora: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=39802186 (COCA; AmE), corpus.byu.edu/bnc/?c=bnc&q=39812951 (BNC, BrE), corpus.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=39802194 (GloWBE, Global Web-Based English). — Damkerng T. 21 mins ago
Some more links: “Recommend you to” vs. “recommend that you” (The accepted answer says "the variant with to is incorrect"; the top voted answer tries to interpret I recommend you to ... in the way that I think is unlikely.) This web page clearly says that it's a mistake, "In natural English, we do not use the structure recommend somebody to do something." — Damkerng T. 15 mins ago
... This best answer in this Yahoo! Answers thread says "I recommend you to go there" just sounds stupid in English. Even a native UK English speaker says "It doesn't sound quite right in UK English at least". But we can find this construction of recommend in OED1, 7c. Though all evidence seems to suggest that the usage is fading out, to say that it's incorrect is an overstatement, in my humble opinion. — Damkerng T. 6 mins ago
... You can also check out the results I found in various dictionaries in our chat log here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/22018048#22018048. To sum it up, Merriam-Webster doesn't mention this usage; Dictionary.com (which is based on Random House Unabridged Dictionary doesn't mention it); Wiktionary doesn't mention it; but Oxford Dictionaries has several of its examples; Macmillan also has it. Practical English Usage by Michael Swan also mentions it (in 283). Mark Liberman also used it on Language Log. — Damkerng T. 49 secs ago
I wish I could go back and fix some grammar errors up there.
But those errors are not that serious (I think and I hope). Now I can move on to other questions.
 
1 hour later…
09:48
@MaulikV First of all, congrats on being the moderator of your Google Plus community. However, taking a quick look, I can see a lot of questionable things there. (For example, I've seen non-native speakers using the phrase 'centered around'. Whoa! How can be something 'centered around'. What actually they mean is 'centered ON'. Avoid blunders, be respected! :) -- It's 'must-to-read'. I had a debate with some native speakers once when they advised my 'must-have' gadget to 'must-to-have' gadget.) Would you mind if I posted questions here, and linked to your page? — Damkerng T. 6 mins ago
@DamkerngT. morning
what's that ???
Morning!
Nothing much. I was clearing up my old tabs and saw Maulik mentioned his community on Google Plus. I took a quick look, and saw something I think not quite right which could be good questions here.
For example, 'must-to-read' sounds very weird to me.
hummmm
10:11
Anything is 'yes' to make all Asians (especially Indians) becoming 'learned' in this language. What is your plan, btw? @DamkerngT. Also, I did not get what you meant by 'questionable' thing over there. Is there anything wrong, if yes, please become a member and comment/correct it. That's free! :) — Maulik V 23 mins ago
I think that doesn't really mean "Yes! Go ahead!".
But it's more like "Come join me!".
hi folks
the chat looks slightly abandoned at this time of day
It seems so. :-)
what does it mean when someone say "the hell!" ? It's like "damn!" ?
10:20
Could be.
I think they're the same in most contexts.
But, for example, "Hell yeah!" works while "Damn yeah" does not.
Or "Damn right I am" works, but "Hell right I am" does not quite work.
so "Hell" could be positive expression but "Damn" could not in common?
Hmm... I've never thought of the rules.
"You look damn good!" also works.
"You look hell good!" does not.
I see. It's tricky )
Indeed!
Anonymous
Just think of "Hell yeah" and "Damn right" as fixed phrases. They permit a little variation, but not much. There's no need to think of semantic reasons for picking one word or the other
Anonymous
10:33
"The hell?" usually means "What the hell?"
nods -- Good morning!
Anonymous
Morning!
Anonymous
But we can say at least that damn is an intensifier:
Anonymous
"That is damn tasty." "You are damn right."
Anonymous
Sometimes with -ed
10:36
nods -- That's a good explanation!
Hell doesn't quite work as an intensifier, I think.
Anonymous
It doesn't.
10:50
0
Q: Which one of the following passive voice is correct?

amitbadoni001"We saw you and him." If I change the above sentence to passive voice, which one of the following would be correct ? "He and you were seen by us." "You and he were seen by us."

For some reason, though both are grammatically correct, both sound weird to me.
11:03
thanks @snailboat
 
1 hour later…
12:05
How do you pronounce unknown acronyms (e.g. GUID) and why? I often pronounce each character as separate syllables, but it might be due to it's foreign language.
I think a lot of people pronounce it "gwid" or goo-id", probably just for the sake of brevity.
12:25
I found that by google-ing, but I've pronounced "ID" as like eye-dee and "GUID" as like gee-you-eye-dee...
I think pronouncing it as G-U-I-D is okay, too.
12:37
So, I'm interesting about how people guesses pronounce of unknown words, especially difference between native English speaker and Japanese.
Hi @DamkerngT. do you think my answer here is correct?
0
A: I see a bus come

Man_From_India I see a bus come. I see a bus coming. When you say I see a bus come, it means the bus has already come, and now stopped at the stand. When you say I see a bus coming, it means the bus is on its way to the stop, progressing. We saw Kim leave the bank. We saw Kim leaving the b...

I think I see a bus come sounds wrong in the OP's context.
It's possible in narration and storytelling, though.
@unarist I don't know if people really know how to pronounce an unknown word any better than guesswork.
true that is...doesn't it mean the bus has already come to the stop?
However, it's rare that a native speaker will learn a new word by just seeing it.
(which only happens in reading books, I think.)
@Man_From_India That's beyond me. :D
I think by the time the bus has already stopped, "I see the bus ..." will be unlikely.
Okay :-) let's see how people respond to it...may be others will point out :-)
12:45
(I'd say "The bus is here! Let's go!")
But obviously in OP's context "I see a bus come" is wrong...
@DamkerngT. Ah, that's right. I read websites about programming, and... they create new words and acronyms one after another...
By the way, the mentioning of pronouncing an unknown word reminds me that I asked snailboat a few days ago how she would pronounce Zombeavers, and though she picked to stress the first syllable, she said that the second syllable is also possible.
@unarist I think people usually read those acronyms the way the ones who created them pronounce them.
(I've just surprised about "she")
12:54
:-)
@DamkerngT. but I cannot find those information of some words like GUID and UUID :)
UUID is difficult to pronounce as one syllable, I think. :-)
It's on the top of googling "uuid pronunciation" result
13:42
HOLA
14:14
hey @Freddy!!! how r u doing?
14:34
@Freddy Hello, @Freddy!
15:01
@Damkerng )) 1) Dictionary entries are kept by ordinary people and regularly updated but not every second (who knows how often updates occur ) as opposed to daily English in real life 2) As for the criteria, you gather opinions from ordinary people. The more, the better. Then you make a conclusion based on the majority. That's all! — AmD 4 mins ago
sigh
I hope they won't write "Its true.", "Between he and she", "Between two of they", etc.
> Are you the one that called...
> Are you the one who called...
Both are okay.
This is a new question. to me both are correct.
But is the one with that still in use?
Though I'd normally use the one who.
I wonder if they think "Me either" is incorrect, too.
same here...but I have checked Fowler's modern English usage, and it says that is also used to refer to human.
@DamkerngT. hmmm which question?
15:06
@Man_From_India Yes. I remember that snailboat posted a link to a similar post on Language Log a few weeks ago.
@Man_From_India Oh, I was just curious about the OP who just posted a comment to me.
Basically, they opened a question by claiming that an example in a dictionary is incorrect.
And they believe native speakers more than dictionaries.
(which is fair, but I think we need to strike the right balance.)
That is really interesting...and yes it's fair to me too, but it is hard to believe that a dictionary is incorrect considering the research work before writing a dictionary entry.
nods -- The problem with that pattern (recommend someone to do something) is that it's declining, I think. Its acceptability is extremely low among American speakers, from what I've observed.
@DamkerngT. This is correct :O okay there is a long discussion with you in "recommend" question.
@DamkerngT. COCA?
Though I found that Mark Liberman used it in his comment on Language Log too. :P
@Man_From_India I posted three links to three corpora; COCA is one of them.
reading...
15:12
The number of hits in COCA is clearly lower than that of BNC.
> We'd recommend to you to book your flight early.
though this is okay, it sounds very bad to my ear
Yes. That's from Oxford Learner's Dictionary, iirc.
Oh, the one in the dictionary is without to before you.
@Man_From_India nods -- It's grammatical, though.
Hmm... maybe I was too hasty to say that it's grammatical.
> recommend sb to do sth
is perfect
It looks like in AmE, that pattern is obsolete.
Basically, in AmE, we only recommend something, not someone (to do something).
Are you sure that pattern is still in use even in BrE?
15:16
So, it's possible to say recommend to someone something.
I'm not 100% sure, but Mark Liberman is an American, and he's a linguist.
PEU also includes it in 238.
I also found it in another grammar book.
Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary says the pattern has to be recommend sb to do sth
Among other patterns.
Judging from their reaction (ending the last comment with That's all!), I think I'd better not reply.
15:19
Yes.
it says recommend sb to do sth is actually wrong :O
I remember in ELL one AmE native speaker said something similar...And I believe that is BrE and AmE difference.
And a lot of people say not very nice things about non-native speakers using this construction.
@Man_From_India That's the best conclusion I came up with last night.
I think the OP hadn't checked out my links.
The best reason behind my saying that it's BrE and AmE difference is because in BrE dictionaries I find that pattern :O
@Man_From_India It also sounds perfectly natural to me.
This is similar to X is opposite my house vs. X is opposite to my house, I think.
It looks like most speakers accept only one alternative.
Or Get your hand off me vs. Get your hand off of me.
to me opposite to my house and opposite my house both are correct...
15:25
Yes; to me, too.
0
Q: Asker rejects edits that remove misplaced answers from their question

Nathan TuggyI've made a couple of edit suggestions on a particular question and commented between them to try to explain, but both edits were rejected by the asker with the custom reason, "Why I need to remove [the] answer?". Is there anything more I can do to fix this?

and same thing off me and off of me :-)
nods -- :D
@DamkerngT. I haven't yet found recommend + to sb + sth in COCA
15:30
Oh sorry...my mistake
I found
> I think the frustration is that it wasn't a regular doctor who recommended to him to try this holistic approach.
yes recommend + to+ noun + to-infinitive clause
There are 22 results of [recommend] [p*] to [v*] in COCA, though.
> He's the one who recommended you to fill his position.
I object to the answer just because :
"There's a difference between these two sentences:"
> We'd recommend you to book your flight early.
> We'd recommend to you to book your flight early.
I think that's a normal reading for American speakers.
6
Q: "Recommend you to" vs. "recommend that you"

Šime Vidas I recommend you to define those parameters beforehand. I recommend that you define those parameters beforehand. Are both sentences grammatically correct? If yes, do they mean the same thing? If yes, which one should I use?

See Hellion's answer.
15:36
And the explanation of difference that answerer wrote is really confusing.
nods
Basically, they will read recommend X as X is something being recommended.
So the closest reading available, I think, is:
> recommend someone to do something == recommend someone for doing something
nods
One sec...Hellion pointed out the difference of two sentences that are different from the ones the answerer here in ELL is doing...
Yes. It's essentially the same as the ELL answer.
I am not a native speaker, so I don't want to say anything against Hellion said. But something is atrange about his explanation. I can point it out from the point of view of grammar
Hellion's explanation seems to say he considered you as the subject of the infinitive clause, but we know that if we add the subject of a infinitive clause we need to add for before the subject.
Hellion pointed out the difference in these sentences :
> I recommend that you define those parameters beforehand
and
> I recommend you to define those parameters beforehand
But the answerer in ELL pointed out
> We'd recommend you to book your flight early.
and
> We'd recommend to you to book your flight early.
Yes, you're right. It's not exactly the same explanation.
(Though I think they read recommend you to X the same way.)
15:44
nods
I once used wordreference.com forum before joining here. That is a good site, but they don't explain the way it is explained here :-) but that is also a very good forum, and lots of good native speakers. That site also helped me a lot.
:D
It's a useful site indeed, though somehow I think I'm happier here. :-)
I checked the thread of that forum. One thing is obvious. it's a BrE and AmE difference,, notice the answerer's native language. And you can make a guess.
@DamkerngT. yes, ever since I joined here, and made myself comfortable here, I don't feel like going anywhere else :-) the explanation here is by far the best in my experience.
nods
is picking up his head from the floor after nodding too hard...
15:57
lol
Anonymous
@unarist I pronounce each letter separately in GUID and UUID
Good morning once again! @snailboat :-)
Anonymous
Morning #2 to you too! :-)
I think I found the answer to recommend thing! It's AmE vs. BrE indeed.
I just need to read that post on WordReference through to the end.
> recommend someone to do something Recommend (that)someone do something: This British construction corresponds to an American mandative subjunctive; its oldest date in the OED is 1856. The construction is entered without comment in LDOCE. <Mrs Barefoot . . . would certainly recommend younger women to look ahead.>1993 Feb. 1Times12/4
(source: British or American English: A Handbook of Word and Grammar Patterns)
Anonymous
16:08
@DamkerngT. That doesn't quite make sense
Anonymous
> recommend someone to do something Recommend (that)someone do something
Anonymous
What is this bit?
Anonymous
Is the left side in bold the construction in question, and the right side a definition?
Anonymous
I don't understand the notation
16:09
The best way would be having a look at that book, but...
Anonymous
Right, so let's do that...
I think it's rather obvious that the main entry is recommend someone to do something and the book annotates it with Recommend (that)someone do something as the equivalent construction.
Anonymous
Oh! Google Books doesn't have anything but a partial bibliography and the front cover!
Oh, no!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Presumably the lack of a space is just a typo
Anonymous
16:11
@DamkerngT. That's fine, then. I found it confusing and didn't understand at first, so it was less obvious to me
nods -- I copied it from that forum, so I think the formatting might be a little off.
Anyone has Modern English Usage by Fowler?
it says clearly
Not me. :P
Oh!
ok let me upload the page
Oh! Thanks!
16:13
Is that readable? It doesn't say that it's AmE and BrE difference...but it does say the infinitive construction is valid.
Anonymous
@Man_From_India That looks like a good reference. Yeah, it doesn't seem to mention anything about which dialects favor which constructions
@snailboat true, but from the comments here, and other forums and considering their native languages, we (I and Dam) made a guess :P
Anonymous
@Man_From_India Oh, well, I actually thought we all agreed from the start there was an AmE vs BrE difference
Anonymous
I may have misread something. I tend to do that :-)
I can only present the evidence I gathered, and make a little assertion.
Anonymous
16:16
I think it was discussed last year on ELL
Though I'd be really surprised if some entries in Oxford Learner's Dictionary is utterly wrong.
Anonymous
If not, I discussed it somewhere else last year, and I no longer remember where
Oh! Was I in the discussion too?
Anonymous
I don't know!
Anonymous
:-)
16:17
Hehe!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Where's the OALD entry?
Anonymous
I found this one
@snailboat I also remember now...here only we discussed...and I mentioned the same source :D u remember u mistook this book for MW usage dictionary :D
@snailboat Yes, that's one. That's the one the OP quoted the example from.
Anonymous
16:18
@Man_From_India I don't remember!
@DamkerngT. I remember u were...hehe
LOL -- I don't remember that!
checking his own memory banks...
3.2 TB lost
@snailboat Now do I have super memory? :O
Anonymous
@Man_From_India Sure, why not?
@Man_From_India applauds :-)
Anonymous
16:19
It's okay. Humans all forget lots of stuff. Some of us more than others :-)
It proves sometimes human brain can do wonder that even robotic brain can't :D
Hehe!
0
Q: Asker rejects edits that remove misplaced answers from their question

Nathan TuggyI've made a couple of edit suggestions on a particular question and commented between them to try to explain, but both edits were rejected by the asker with the custom reason, "Why I need to remove [the] answer?". Is there anything more I can do to fix this?

There should be some Help page that we can point the OP to.
Hullo Cabin/world!
Hello!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Someone with more reputation can edit it, I suppose
16:29
@snailboat I think someone can, but I guess that the OP will roll it back.
If we don't give them a good reason.
Anonymous
Presumably that user would also leave a comment
Anonymous
If it's rolled back anyway, then someone can flag for moderation attention
Yes, he did.
Anonymous
No, "that user" meaning the editor :-)
Strange. I can't find anything on our meta site or Help Center saying that an answer should be written as an answer, not in the question.
16:33
@DamkerngT. I can.
@M.A.Ramezani Oh, that would be nice!
> No chitchat.
Flagging is the best option.
Bringing the thing to meta is unnecessary.
Too noisy.
Reopen?
1
Q: What is the difference between “refer the letter” and “refer to the letter”?

PradeepI’m asking about usage of “refer” and “refer to”. Can one say “refer to the letter”? Is “refer the letter” enough?

Voted to reopen
16:35
I think it can be reasonably answered.
Anonymous
How many reopen votes does it need?
The prepositions confuse them.
Only one more!
@snailboat Five thousand.
Anonymous
@M.A.Ramezani You could say the choice of complements confuses them. Does refer take the letter as a direct object, or does it take the preposition phrase to the letter as a complement?
16:37
Do you expect me to type two lines of that?
Anonymous
Refer does take a direct object, but not in that meaning.
@snailboat Yep. More precisely, they have little or no idea about what prepositions are supposed to do.
That's what I thought.
Anonymous
So they might have seen an example of refer with a direct object and failed to grasp the difference between the two types of complement
Could be.
Not that possible.
Anonymous
@M.A.Ramezani Well, less precisely, but who's counting?
16:38
I'm not even sure if it's a preposition, though I'm rather sure that it usually is refer to, unless we want to say that we refer someone to something.
@snailboat Me!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. To there is a preposition. The other to is an infinitive marker, but this to takes a noun phrase as a complement
Anonymous
I guess there are several common constructions with refer
Anonymous
refer to X as Y - I call X "Y".
Anonymous
refer X to Y - I'm giving X a referral, suggesting they see Y
Anonymous
16:40
refer to X - see X (for example if "X" is "the index" or "Appendix A")
0
Q: 'Had walked' or 'had gone'?

YaldaWhich one is true? He had walked there on foot. or He had gone there on foot. Since 'walk' means 'to move or go somewhere by putting one foot in front of the other on the ground [Oxford Dictionary]', is it true to use it with 'on foot'?

Something's lagging about the question above.
Anonymous
And so on... A dictionary should have a good list
Anonymous
I can't think of one that follows to with an infinitive
I've seen refer mostly in the passive voice.
Anonymous
It's often used in the active as well
16:43
@snailboat No to-infinitive (for refer) is listed in Macmillan.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. So we can safely call to a preposition :-)
Okay! :-)
> He had walked there on foot.
He had gone there on foot.
Anonymous
Of course, refer could be followed by a to-infinitival adjunct of purpose, like pretty much any verb.
I think I'd overlook the difference if the OP didn't mention it. :-)
Anonymous
It just doesn't take a to-infinitival complement.
Anonymous
16:45
@DamkerngT. I believe they want to ask which one is "correct" rather than "true"
Anonymous
That seems to be a common error among some speakers with certain L1s
Anonymous
I guess you can tell that without me pointing it out :-)
Anonymous
But it's an interesting error.
It is!
0
Q: why is there no tag "verb construction"?

rogermueI'm referring to the post "refer the letter x refer to the letter" The tags are of the vaguest kind: grammar word-usage sentence-construction phrase-usage. I suggest to remove all these vague tags and replace them with verb-construction. The problem here is not grammar (a very large area). Word-...

16:46
(I don't know what those L1s are.)
@StackExchange Eh?
Hullo @StackExchange! Long time no see!
:}
Hey, I'm talking to StackExchange!
Anonymous
Replace them all with complementation, more like.
Rogermue could use better formatting in his meta Q. <- My first thought after reading it.
@DamkerngT. What? Bot to bot communication is weird?
Hmm... We've got only 2 questions tagged with complementation.
16:49
You could add "verb construction" as a new tag, but I don't think we should remove the vague tags.
Anonymous
I wouldn't personally add "verb construction"
@Fantasier Hullo @Fanta!
(Fanta is a soda brand name here)
Anonymous
Here, too.
Because that's what beginners are familiar with, vague.
@snailboat I thought it might be called something else.
16:51
And here, too.
@Fantasier That sentence is so philosophical, my computer's CPU is at 100% now.
Anonymous
Apparently it's originally German! I just looked it up on Wikipedia
So Germany is gonna be the only place where it's called something different...
Anonymous
> Fanta originated as a result of difficulties importing Coca-Cola syrup into Nazi Germany during World War II due to a trade embargo.[2] To circumvent this, Max Keith, the head of Coca-Cola Deutschland (Coca-Cola GmbH) during the Second World War, decided to create a new product for the German market, using only ingredients available in Germany at the time, including whey and pomace – the "leftovers of leftovers", as Keith later recalled.
Anonymous
16:52
> The name was the result of a brief brainstorming session, which started with Keith's exhorting his team to "use their imagination" (Fantasie in German), to which one of his salesmen, Joe Knipp, immediately retorted "Fanta!"[3]
Maybe we can tag it with phrasal verb. It's listed in Collins COBUILD Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs.
@snailboat Oh, I didn't know its history!
Hello, @Fantasier!
But... some people may not consider it a phrasal verb.
Do we have "collocation" as a tag?
That's the problem.
Do we have ?
No we don't.
Wait...
WE DON'T?!
Maybe with the s?
Did we ever agree on using plurals or singulars as tags' names?
@Fantasier You can write [tag:XXX] and it'd become .
@Fantasier I don't think it's that serious.
@Fantasier That's another problem. :D
@M.A.Ramezani You don't? Well, I do :-)
16:56
If one writes pre, they'll see .
Sounds like a fun tag.
The same goes with the time we have .
Hahaha!
Anonymous
16:57
[tag:test​]
Being plural or singular doesn't hurt searchability, so it ain't a problem.
@Fan maybe you want
newest howlongcanwetypesomethinginthesetwobracketswhilekeepingthesystemtorenderthemasatag questions feed
Do you?
I wonder why they allow that.
Tags can't be longer than 21 chars on the main site.
Why can they be here?
Ah, good midnight, everyone!
(I didn't say "Good night", though.)
07:00 - 17:0017:00 - 19:00

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