ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

18:14

Sorry to interrupt. I just got this comment:

@DamkerngT BTW, look here (forum.wordreference.com/threads/…) The native speakers of English there said that it would sound odd to them and would mean you recommend another person because this person is good. — AmD 20 mins ago

I followed the link and I think the OP meant this:

> I am afraid that I disagree with Loob. I would recommend to somebody that he do something, but the thing that I recommend is the action itself:

I would recommend going to Urumqi.
I would recommend that to anyone who asked.
I would recommend going to Urumqi to anyone who asked.

Still not sure what to do to counter a native speaker on another site...

But the senior member who lives in New York said "I would recommend to somebody that he do something, but the thing that I recommend is the action itself."

Catija

What's wrong with his wording?

Damkerng T.

Not really, but if I understand him correctly, he said I would recommend to somebody ~~that he~~ to do something is wrong.

I read that thread a bit more, and the thread strayed from whether recommend someone to do something is correct or not to recommend someone to do something vs. advise someone to do something.

Catija

Loob is British... I'm trying to remember if I found it more common in England... but I feel like I did.

Damkerng T.

Does recommend someone to do something not work in AmE?

The OP sentence: We'd recommend you to book your flight early.

> ell.stackexchange.com/q/58421/3281

Catija

Well, the OP there is clearly talking about an AmE speaker...

Personally, I don't like it.

Damkerng T.

18:28

Interesting.

Catija

Then again, the AmE speaker in the question on the other site was doing a live interview, so the English is unlikely to be perfect. Judge us on our written, not spoken ;)

Damkerng T.

Well, I consider that kind of thread as writing, not speaking.

Because the thread is always there.

I don't think that the thread was locked that soon.

(If it's locked.)

Catija

@DamkerngT. But the quote was from a TV interview, was it not?

Damkerng T.

Yes. From a Chinese channel. But that's not an issue, right?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It doesn't really work

Anonymous

18:31

It's grammatical but has the wrong meaning

Catija

I think that post nine on that other site makes a good point.

Damkerng T.

listening...

Catija

> I can see (at least) two possible interpretations of the sentence that seem logical to me:

Original: Would you recommend other people to come to Urumqi?
Meaning 1. Would you recommend choosing different people to come to Urumqi?
Meaning 2. Would you advise other people to come to Urumqi?

Anonymous

I recommend Sudsy Cleaners for cleaning your house. They always do a good job.

Anonymous

I recommend Sudsy Cleaners to clean your house. They always do a good job.

Damkerng T.

18:33

Wait, I thought the sentence was We'd recommend you to book your flight early.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, better that you do it instead of someone else? ;-)

Anonymous

I wasn't sure who to recommend to book your flight early, but you seemed like the best candidate.

Anonymous

Since, y'know, it's your flight.

Anonymous

Might as well do the early booking yourself.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. The sentence here and the sentence there are not the same one.

Catija

18:34

@snailboat That is exactly right. "I recommend you to book your flight early."

Anonymous

The other structure is different grammatically:

Anonymous

> I recommend [ ~~that~~ you book your flight early ].

Damkerng T.

A-ha! I see. Maybe this is another case that the verb works better in the passive.

Anonymous

Can you give an example of what you mean?

Damkerng T.

> Students are recommended to read the following books.

Catija

18:36

As opposed to teachers?

Anonymous

What's the motivation for using a passive?

Anonymous

You should usually have one.

Damkerng T.

> Japanese people are recommended to come to Urumqi.

It eliminates the ambiguity.

Anonymous

What ambiguity?

Anonymous

Oh, we changed the sentences we were talking about.

Damkerng T.

18:38

5 mins ago, by Catija

> I can see (at least) two possible interpretations of the sentence that seem logical to me:

Original: Would you recommend other people to come to Urumqi?
Meaning 1. Would you recommend choosing different people to come to Urumqi?
Meaning 2. Would you advise other people to come to Urumqi?

Anonymous

No wonder I'm lost.

Anonymous

Okay, I see now.

Damkerng T.

Though the ambiguity is arguably still there, I think it's good enough to say that it works better than the one in the active voice.

Anonymous

Ambiguity is fine. Native speakers use ambiguous sentences all the time. Context generally makes the intended meaning clear

Anonymous

> Is it recommended that other people come to Uruqmi?

Anonymous

18:40

Umm, it's hard to paraphrase the other meaning with a passive :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I'm sure it can be done, but I can't focus very well right now, so I'll leave it to another chatter :-)

Damkerng T.

It's still a bit difficult for me to read Would you recommend other people to come to Urumqi? as Would you recommend choosing different people to come to Urumqi?

The context is too weird.

Anonymous

I don't have a problem with it

Anonymous

I agree with what Catija wrote

Anonymous

18:42

If the context involves asking for candidates to do a job in Uruqmi, for example

Anonymous

Like, you have some sort of business deal that needs to be done there.

Damkerng T.

I think I would say Would you recommend other people (to come to Urumqi) to do the job?

Anonymous

We need a context to decide what we're going to say

Anonymous

Like, an actual context, with words and stuff.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

18:44

Otherwise we don't really know what's the most natural way to put something.

Anonymous

Otherwise we don't really know what the most natural way to put something is.

Damkerng T.

I wonder if it's an AmE/BrE difference.

(Like the simple past vs. the present perfect)

Anonymous

It's true that there's a difference in frequency in use of perfect constructions between AmE and BrE

Anonymous

I don't think it's an especially large difference

Anonymous

I hear people sometimes phrase it in terms of an actual rule in BrE requiring the perfect in situations when AmE does not, and I don't think that's true

Damkerng T.

18:47

Hmm... I think it's significant enough in some contexts.

Anonymous

I think it's just a matter of frequency.

Damkerng T.

Though languages do change.

Anonymous

Yes, and both AmE and BrE have been changing in the same way when it comes to perfect constructions

Anonymous

They're just at different points at the moment

Anonymous

(Ignoring major differences like the idiom have got)

Damkerng T.

18:48

But apparently, for some AmE speakers, meaning 2 of the Urumqi sentence is unavailable.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh? What makes you say that?

Damkerng T.

What GreenWhiteBlue said.

Anonymous

What did GreenWhiteBlue say?

Damkerng T.

Loob said this:

> The bottom line, as I see it, is:
(1) I, personally, happily use "recommend somebody to do something", with the sense of "advise somebody to do something".
(2) Many other people find this usage strange.

Anonymous

What does Loob speak?

Damkerng T.

18:51

The quoted text.

Anonymous

I guess I should find the question

Damkerng T.

forum.wordreference.com/threads/…

Anonymous

Speak doesn't work there with that meaning, by the way

Damkerng T.

What does it mean?

Anonymous

I was asking what language variety Loob spoke

Damkerng T.

18:52

Oh, I see. BrE.

Anonymous

I can't find GreenWhiteBlue

Damkerng T.

If we can trust the info attached to users on the web.

Anonymous

Oh, I see them now

Anonymous

We can safely ignore what GreenWhiteBlue wrote

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

18:54

It's not an accurate description.

Damkerng T.

I think that's what made our OP doubt the usage.

Anonymous

That user appears to lack adequate insight into their own language

Anonymous

Which is totally normal. What most native speakers think they say is very different from what they actually say

Damkerng T.

I think that maybe our OP is the OP of that thread, too.

Anonymous

Six years later

Damkerng T.

18:56

True.

Anonymous

I'll be back in a bit―can't really focus right now

Damkerng T.

nods

(Actually, it's not the right time for me too, but the OP addressed me directly. Maybe they have to wait. Or I'd better wait and hope that other members will come to help.)

I think I agree with #9, and I'm surprised to read that #11 wouldn't use recommend (which implied that they meant that there was something wrong in the original sentence).

@AmD I read that thread only halfway through. (I probably won't read more.) FWIW, I agree with native speakers in #2, #9, and #13. — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

Damkerng T.

19:20

Oh, this is interesting... From Longman Dictionary of Common Errors, under recommend sth, recommend that, recommend doing sth, it says:

> British English also uses recommend sb to do sth: 'I wouldn't recommend you to let your children watch it.'

Doesn't that imply that it's mainly BrE?

Catija

Does the dictionary actually use "sth"? Because if they do, I'm not using them any more :P

Damkerng T.

checking...

Yes, it does. But what's wrong with sth? -- confused

Catija

Because I'd never seen it used until I came to ELL ... and it's weird.

Damkerng T.

Oh, hmm... I've seen it almost all my life.

I think Longman is mainly BrE, though.

Catija

As an American, native speaker, we don't use it. I guess some linguist types may but it's completely foreign to me.

Damkerng T.

19:24

nods

Damkerng T.

20:38

nativespeakeronline.com/typical-mistakes-in-english/…

> english.stackexchange.com/questions/35953/…

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120317021556AAG4gdc

Maybe it's obsolete?

Aaron Brown

I was just reading this discussion, and I think that actually might be the case.

Anonymous

@Catija Some dictionaries use sth and sb as abbreviations

Anonymous

They save ink

Damkerng T.

> "I recommend you to go there" just sounds stupid in English.

> No. It immediately tells the listener that you're not a native speaker

> It doesn't sound quite right in UK English at least

Catija

@snailboat sb? I don't even know what that is.

Anonymous

20:42

Dictionaries all have their own conventions, which they usually outline in or near the front cover

Anonymous

Somebody and something

Anonymous

I think sth and sb may be more common in bilingual dictionaries than monolingual

Anonymous

@Catija Most linguists don't use sb or sth

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They aren't BrE, either.

Catija

I see people use them in questions here and on ELU occasionally... and it's a bit of a pet peeve. I tend to edit them out.

Damkerng T.

20:44

The pattern somebody doing something and friends are only useful for learners, I think.

@snailboat Eh?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There is nothing specific to BrE about sb and sth

Damkerng T.

Wait, did you mean the sentence or Longman?

Anonymous

They aren't widely used as abbreviations in AmE or BrE

Anonymous

That is what I meant

Anonymous

They are used in some dictionaries, books on grammar, and so on

Anonymous

20:45

I don't think they're weird. I had a dictionary that used them when I was a small child

Anonymous

But I suppose most dictionaries don't. Some do.

Damkerng T.

Sorry for the confusion! When I thought to myself about Longman being BrE, I was thinking about recommend.

1 hour ago, by Damkerng T.

> British English also uses recommend sb to do sth: 'I wouldn't recommend you to let your children watch it.'

Anonymous

Oh, I thought we were discussing the abbreviations

Anonymous

I do think it's fine editing them out.

Damkerng T.

The sb and sth are from that example. :-)

Anonymous

20:46

If only because not everyone understands them.

Anonymous

But then, to use any dictionary, you have to get used to its abbreviations.

Anonymous

The OED in particular has an awful lot of them

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

public.oed.com/how-to-use-the-oed/abbreviations

Damkerng T.

I also found this recommend someone to do something in OED1.

So, it's a bit surprise that the acceptability among native speakers, particularly AmE speakers, seems to be extremely low.

Anonymous

20:48

Where is it specifically in the entry for recommend?

Anonymous

7c?

Damkerng T.

looking...

Yes.

Catija

@snailboat but none of them seem to be "sth"

Anonymous

@Catija True!

Anonymous

Each dictionary has its own.

Anonymous

20:50

@DamkerngT. It shouldn't be that big of a surprise, though. A language can change quite a bit in over a century.

Damkerng T.

nods -- But, the Longman book is not that old, I think.

Anonymous

Well, I'm not saying Longman's out of date.

Damkerng T.

It's Third impression 1997.

Anonymous

Which book are you talking about?

Damkerng T.

First published 1987.

Anonymous

20:51

I think you said the title, but I didn't pay attention

Damkerng T.

Longman Dictionary of Common Errors

Anonymous

And saying Longman is like saying Oxford or Cambridge

Anonymous

A-ha

Anonymous

I still don't have that book

Damkerng T.

Macmillan also has it. Oxford (the Learner's one, I think) has it.

Anonymous

20:52

Books from Longman I'd recommend include Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English (Biber et al. 1999), which is the book I think of when I hear "Longman"; and the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (LDOCE)

Damkerng T.

I also found some example on Google Books, though the number is not that many.

@snailboat I don't have that one.

Anonymous

I usually refer to the Longman grammar as "Biber et al 1999" because it's less typing (or speaking) :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe! You're right.

Anonymous

And because there are other grammars published by Longman

Damkerng T.

I think, generally, I can't remember a book with a name longer than three words. :-)

Anonymous

20:55

There's ① the student edition of the book I just mentioned, which is cheaper and much shorter (much like the student editions of Quirk et al 1985 and Huddleston & Pullum 2002), and ② Longman English Grammar by L. G. Alexander, which is a much smaller book and not really one of the standard reference grammars

Damkerng T.

(I count Chicago Manual of Style as 3 in this kind of counting.)

Anonymous

The standard reference grammars for English right now are Quirk et al 1985, Biber et al 1999, and Huddleston & Pullum 2002

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's the CMOS! :-)

Anonymous

It helps keeps track of what time it is in your computer.

Damkerng T.

OWL website uses just CMS! :D

Anonymous

20:56

Yeah, some people write that.

Anonymous

In context, some people just say Chicago

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Quirk et al 1985 has a lot of detailed and helpful description, but it's theoretically kind of messy

Damkerng T.

So, right now, I'm not sure if it's really obsolete, and if it's really obsolete, where it's really obsolete.

Anonymous

Biber et al 1999 complements that book, adding real world usage information based on spoken and written corpora

Anonymous

20:59

Huddleston and Pullum 2002 is intended as a replacement for Quirk et al 1985, and is more explicitly theoretical

Damkerng T.

Let me type... Quirk et al '85, Biber et al '99, Huddleston and Pullum '02.

Anonymous

You can do that if you like. I usually call the last CGEL

Damkerng T.

Q85, B99, HP02

Anonymous

I have an aversion to two year dates

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

21:00

I always type 1985, 1999, or 2002

Damkerng T.

It saves me two bytes. :-)

BRB

Anonymous

Yeah, well, you'll regret it 85 years from now! ;-)

Damkerng T.

If I could still be around 85 years from now, I'm sure I wouldn't regret it!

What dictionaries are purely AmE?

Perhaps Webster.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recommend

Not a single recommend (to) X to do something. Neither in the active nor passive voice.

It's the same on Dictionary.com.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/recommend?s=t

(Dictionary.com is based on Random House Unabridged Dictionary, according to Wikipedia.)

Let's see in what dialect Wiktionary is...

It's the same in Wiktionary: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recommend

With a note: This is a catenative verb that takes the gerund (-ing). See Appendix:English catenative verbs.

That's probably all I can think of American dictionaries.

It's unclear in Collins English Dictionary. (I remember that it's unclear in American Heritage Dictionary too.)

It's clearly there on www.oxforddictionaries.com.

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/recommend

> 'you are strongly recommended to seek professional advice'
'I would strongly recommend readers not to take his words too seriously!'
'On the other hand, I strongly recommend anyone interested to give it a try.'
'We strongly recommend you girls out there to treat yourself to something nice for Christmas.'

It's on Macmillan.

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/recommend

> Students are recommended to read the following books.

Let's try Language Log...

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4914

False positive

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=453

> Mark Liberman said,
[...]
In the particular case of "nonplussed", I can take it or leave it, with a slight preference for leaving it. I certainly wouldn't use the new sense myself, and I'd recommend others not to use it. On the other hand, I'm sensible enough (I hope) not to allow myself to become William Grant White.

Damkerng T.

21:51

It's one of the verbs in PEU 283.

Aaron Brown

22:07

You've gathered a lot of evidence here!

I would say it's fairly clear that at least in AmE the direct object of "recommend" should always be what (action, item, person) you're recommending, not who you're recommending it to.

Damkerng T.

@AaronBrown I can't help it. It's in my nature. :-)

Aaron Brown

But that there are some people that use it in contrary to that as well.

Damkerng T.

@AaronBrown Agreed.

Aaron Brown

BrE looks like it might be less formal about this.

Damkerng T.

Some comments on the web by speakers of the BrE dialect make me feel like maybe it's obsolete or becoming obsolete.

Aaron Brown

22:12

Yeah I think that is the case from what I have been reading today as well.

However BrE in general is more liberal with allowing different forms and verb complements.

Esp. in spoken English.

Damkerng T.

nods

Aaron Brown

As an aside, as an AmE speaker I personally wouldn't bat an eye at hearing "we recommend you to X" in spoken English, but it does look off to me in writing.

Damkerng T.

This makes me curious about this verb (recommend) in other main dialects (Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, South African, Scottish, Irish, etc.)

Aaron Brown

Yeah. It's probably going to be hard to find good information about that though, especially for the smaller ones

Sounds like research for an English scholar.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It could be fun for us, too. :-)

The recommend question reminds me of an old question: How are you going, buddy? Everyone on ELL thought that it sounded wrong...

Until an Australian speaker came by.

2

A: how to answer the sentence "how are you going?"

It is A; the fact people don't know this worries me. It's a common Australian phrase similar to, "How are you?" Really, there isn't another answer to this question, as it would be worded, "How are you getting there?" and not "going," as "going" would be the verb.

I remember I smiled (probably laughed, too) when I read "the fact people don't know this worries me." :-)

Aaron Brown

22:30

That's interesting, haha.

Transcript for