ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

17:02

Things could get complicated when it's about colloquial Thai or old Thai. I mean, the numerative is not always mandatory and the position can be switched!

I guess that it's probably the same in Japanese.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Switched?

Anonymous

In Japanese, the classifier follows the numeral 100% of the time, and the two form a single word. But this word has a range of functions, so it can appear in various positions

Damkerng T.

Yes. For example, three cats ~ แมว 3 ตัว [cat-3-ตัว]. But one cat could be แมวตัวนึง [cat-ตัว-one].

Anonymous

That never happens in Japanese

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Like saying I have nine coffee of cups?

Damkerng T.

17:05

Probably, but without of.

M.A.Ramezani

Aww.

Nine coffee cups.

Hmm...

Anonymous

I edited my message above

Damkerng T.

It's more like [coffee-nine-cup] in Thai.

M.A.Ramezani

That's the standard Classifier order in Persian.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, but they never switch their positions within the same word.

M.A.Ramezani

17:07

Or wait...No no. It isn't.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, 3杯 san-pai 'three cups' can never be 杯3

M.A.Ramezani

I mixed it with the fact that modifiers in Persian are in inverted position.

And I inverted it, then said it was Persian.

Damkerng T.

nods -- In Thai, though it's sometimes possible, it's rare except for when the quantity is one.

@M.A.Ramezani What's the basic word order of this kind of phase in Persian?

M.A.Ramezani

Nine cups coffee.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

M.A.Ramezani

17:09

No preposition, or "Kasreh Ezafeh".

Araucaria

@snailboat Oshiete kurete arigato gozai masu!

Anonymous

@Araucaria Ie ie :-)

Damkerng T.

Wow, this O must be about politeness!

M.A.Ramezani

You said thanks

And you said you're welcome.

Just a guess.

Anonymous

We can tell that the numeral and classifier form a single word because of how they combine. For example, ip-piki geminates and san-biki undergoes sequential voicing ("rendaku").

Damkerng T.

17:11

Hmm... I guessed wrong.

Anonymous

Oh! They're also called "specifiers".

Anonymous

Specifiers, numeratives, classifiers, counters, ...

Anonymous

Too many names! :-)

Damkerng T.

Lots of names!

M.A.Ramezani

Measure thingies.

Or even thingies.

Anonymous

17:12

@DamkerngT. It's a challenge sometimes when trying to explain something to someone, when you realize you have no idea what set of terminology they're familiar with, if any

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Today I wondered what a simple sentence is. :D

Anonymous

A sentence with only one clause?

Damkerng T.

Could be. Let's see...

Is I'll go and buy some water a simple sentence?

M.A.Ramezani

Nah.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I remember that I used will earlier.

Anonymous

17:14

I don't know, what's a simple sentence?

M.A.Ramezani

I win.

^ A simple sentence.

Prolly.

Or maybe, because it has an ellipsed object, it's not so simple.

Damkerng T.

To @user20181, this question could be easier to answer if you tell us about the grammar textbook you use, so the answerers can be sure about the definitions of simple sentence, compound sentence, complex sentence, and so on. This may sound odd: why do we need their definitions? shouldn't everyone agree what a simple sentence is? IMHO, dealing with advanced sentences is usually done not in terms of sentences, but in terms of clauses, predicates, and so on. Here are some examples of what I'd argue they're simple sentences: She comes see me. He'll go and buy it. I like it hotter than that. — Damkerng T. 10 hours ago

Anonymous

> Sentences are either SIMPLE or MULTIPLE. A simple sentence consists of a single independent clause. A multiple sentence contains one or more clauses as its immediate constituents. Multiple sentences are either COMPOUND or COMPLEX. In a compound sentence the immediate constituents are two or more COORDINATE clauses. In a complex sentence one or more of its elements, such as a direct object or adverbial, are realized by a SUBORDINATE clause [...]. (Quirk et al. 1985 p.719)

Anonymous

There's one definition for you.

Anonymous

I don't use those terms myself

Damkerng T.

17:17

Ah, MULTIPLE!

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat That's the same in Persian

Damkerng T.

This pushes the same question down to the level of clause.

M.A.Ramezani

And defining what clauses are is highly dependent on these two terms.

Anonymous

I think those are traditional terms.

Damkerng T.

Does a compound predicate make two coordinate clauses?

Anonymous

17:19

I'm not sure how useful they are, though.

Damkerng T.

nods

But surely, a lot of ELLers use these terms.

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat They lose their functionality when we get to define clauses.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it's worth having a passing familiarity

Damkerng T.

nods

Ahh... It's been reopened!

1

Q: "If only 10 years ago..." -- punctuation

I want to write this: If only 10 years ago I would have thought the way I do today. How should I punctuate this? I am not sure where commas go. Don't we usually use commas in a conditional sentence?

I didn't vote to close it, but I think the question is unclear as is.

How should we punctuate a malformed sentence?

M.A.Ramezani

Chuckles

I mean

What on earth is up with the formatting in this question? All those fancy Unicode characters are just unnecessary here and don't really fit, and the bolding is rather tedious. — Nathan Tuggy 1 hour ago

(removed)

You might wanna close that question good people of Earth.

Damkerng T.

17:29

I think they might've put the question the wrong way (which is a bit sad)

M.A.Ramezani

Yet another whine. Watch people:

-15

Q: Something should be done about pretentious users on this site

generally speaking many high-rep users and mod as not obeying their own rules of being nice. far too many questions are put on hold and given a generic explanation and when contested are met with a wave of negativity by the person who put the post on hold and by their friends. information via co...

discussion

Damkerng T.

As it is now, the question forces the reader to accept that the dialogue is correct.

"block stackexchange from showing up in my Google search results in protest of these perceived injustices until they are fully resolved"

Could be an interesting feature...

Oh, I misread the sentence.

I thought they wanted to block only unresolved questions on SE.

M.A.Ramezani

The fun part is

Damkerng T.

Oh, it was just only 33 minutes ago.

That's about 2 minutes a click!

M.A.Ramezani

> I'll add more to this post as I think of things.

@DamkerngT. Oh you have no idea!

In meta.SE, you could get 10 downvotes in a minute.

Damkerng T.

17:35

LOL

Looks like I really didn't know.

M.A.Ramezani

Guys look! Nicolau posted an inverted screenshot of chem.SE back on meta:

More interestingly, a lot of our chemists loved it.

Chemists are weird.

Damkerng T.

I think it's easier to read. :D

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. But that's a very good question old bean! Learners get taught "If only ..." constructions, their teachers draw the comparison between those sentences and conditionals, but it isn't clear to students what these sentences are ...

Damkerng T.

I feel like I'm staring at the light every time I use my computer or my small devices.

Araucaria

They sound and smell like conditionals, but they aren't. They smell like exclamations but they aren't. They look a bit like they're the same as conditional antecedents (apodoses, if-clauses), but the rules or habits about would for example aren't quite the same. Even the old-timers like StoneyB or people like me find it difficult to come up with the right guidance...

@DamkerngT. ... and even you pointed out that it kinda could be a wrongly punctuated conditional if you squint at it the wrong way!

:-)

Damkerng T.

17:39

@Araucaria I think we (you?) should tell them to fix the sentence first, or help them fix it, before discussing the punctuation.

@Araucaria I still don't know what it is.

I only know that it's not a sentence.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. So you're saying that "If only 10 years ago I would have thought the way I do today" is malformed?

Anonymous

What do you suppose needs to be fixed?

Damkerng T.

It sounds really weird to me.

I don't know what the OP intended to say.

But it could be something like...

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. I think the punctuation point is just that it isn't a conditional. In a conditional we put a comma between the "clauses" if the "if-clause" comes first. But this is only one clause ...

Damkerng T.

> If only 10 years ago I would have thought the way I do today... I wouldn't have to do this kind of job.

Araucaria

17:42

@DamkerngT. .. and this construction doesn't uaually have a comma ....

Damkerng T.

^Of course, it's still not grammatical, but it looks like a sentence now.

M.A.Ramezani

Nah it's good.

As an exclamation.

Just like the rest of the sentence is ellipsed @Dam.

Damkerng T.

Well, we can exclaim almost anything, right?

Ellipsed!

Rest of the sentence is!

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani I think it's a type of minor sentence. I don't think it's ellipsis.

M.A.Ramezani

Huh?

Oh yes.

Sorry.

Am playing games.

Distracted.

hellodear

17:49

:)

@DamkerngT. Hi

Damkerng T.

Let's not forget that the OP didn't say that it was meant as an exclamation. They just say, "I want to write this: If only 10 years ago I would have thought the way I do today."

M.A.Ramezani

Hullo @Hello!

Damkerng T.

Hi @hellodear!

How are you doing?

hellodear

I hope you forgot me :(

Damkerng T.

How could I?!

M.A.Ramezani

17:50

@hellodear Why?

hellodear

Because it is toooooooooooooooo long! :(

M.A.Ramezani

@hellodear Wait...You mean thought?

hellodear

No

I hope

M.A.Ramezani

@hellodear The height of my awesomeness? Yeah...

hellodear

@DamkerngT. you remember when we used to talk?

In which month or which year? :(

Damkerng T.

17:51

@hellodear Probably a year and almost a half.

hellodear

You never pinged me.

:'(

Damkerng T.

Oh, ping doesn't have any effect unless you're around lately.

M.A.Ramezani

Woo! A previous chat reg!

Shiny!

Damkerng T.

Iirc, you didn't ping me either, right? :-)

hellodear

I will get notifications

if you ping me

:(

M.A.Ramezani

17:53

No you won't.

@BenKovitz.

Damkerng T.

I still have more unused clips for you. :D

M.A.Ramezani

Proof. ^

hellodear

M.A raezani how are you

M.A.Ramezani

He won't get a ping.

@hellodear Thanks (Or tanks)!

Am fine.

So I've shortened my sentences.

Playing games.

hellodear

Lol

:)

M.A.Ramezani

17:55

OK tell us a bit about yourself.

hellodear

I am working with a MNC

I joined last year only as a fresher

:)

what is time at your side?

11:34 at my side

Anonymous

> Subordinate clauses as irregular sentences (Quirk et al. 1985 p.842)

Anonymous

> (v) Subordinate clauses beginning if only and containing the form of the verb appropriate to conditional clauses (cf 15.36) also express an exclamatory wish:

Anonymous

> > If only I'd listened to my parents! ['I wish I had listened to my parents.']
> > If only he were not so timid!
> > If only I could make them understand my point of view!

Anonymous

> A similar construction has only, just, or but before the main verb:

Anonymous

18:05

> > If I'd only listened to my parents!

Anonymous

> > If I could just make them understand my point of view!

hellodear

I told my friend: I am getting fan of this security.

He laughed

Anonymous

> > If I could but explain!

hellodear

and told me that it should be "I am becoming fan you......."

Anonymous

@hellodear That's not grammatical

hellodear

18:06

@snailboat @DamkerngT.

Then??

I am becoming a fan of this security.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat What's weird is that some examples in Macmillan don't use periods.

No, not some. All.

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. No. This phenomenon is named invisible periods.

Anonymous

@hellodear That seems grammatical but it might not be especially natural

M.A.Ramezani

@hellodear p.m.?

hellodear

yes

11:38 om

*pm

M.A.Ramezani

18:08

Oh, that's Iran's time!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It looks like both the examples in Macmillan use periods: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/if-only

M.A.Ramezani

Are you Iranian?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, sorry! I meant question marks.

I was wondering what 'this security' would mean.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What are we talking about again? I'm confused...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Me too.

Damkerng T.

18:09

Not sure.

Anonymous

> If only we could afford to buy a place of our own.
> If only you knew how hard I’ve tried to please you.

Damkerng T.

I think we were talking about whether the OP's sentence is a complete sentence.

Anonymous

Those are the examples I found in Macmillan for the if only construction we're discussing

Damkerng T.

My idea is we won't know for sure unless the OP tells us what they want to say.

Anonymous

That's reasonable.

Damkerng T.

18:11

But admittedly, I expected an exclamation mark, at the very least.

Or else, a clause.

Anonymous

If a native speaker used the OP's sentence, I'd be positive they intended it as a minor sentence.

Damkerng T.

I still think If only 10 years ago X would have thought ... is weird.

Anonymous

> If only we could afford to buy a place of our own. [= "I wish we could afford to buy a place of our own."]
> If only you knew how hard I've tried to please you. [= "I wish you knew how hard I've tried to please you."]

Damkerng T.

I think it should be If only 10 years ago X had thought ...

nods

Anonymous

Hmm, I expect some other people would agree with you on that

Anonymous

18:13

But I don't have a problem with it

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The way our translators did it made this If only mean If only in Thai.

Anonymous

Of course, in my dialect, we often use woulds in places textbooks would suggest you not put woulds :-)

Damkerng T.

But it will give only the feeling of either If only we could afford to buy a place of our own! or If only we could afford to buy a place of our own...

@snailboat Is this okay to you? If only he would think the way I do...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Sure. Why are you trailing off, by the way?

Anonymous

I mean, you can do that.

Damkerng T.

18:18

3 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

But it will give only the feeling of either If only we could afford to buy a place of our own! or If only we could afford to buy a place of our own...

Anonymous

Wait, are those supposed to be different?

Damkerng T.

Thanks to our translators, if only was imprinted to my brain like that. :-)

Anonymous

They look the same except for the punctuation

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes. They suggest two different moods.

Anonymous

Like, the first is more emphatic, and the second is kind of wistful and sad?

Anonymous

18:19

(Wistful and sad. Both food groups!)

Damkerng T.

nods -- kind of. The first is a bit more agitated, in my idea.

Anonymous

Yeah, the differing punctuation does give a different impression.

Anonymous

Here's the reason I asked about this specific point:

Anonymous

I wasn't sure whether you were using the "..." to indicate ellipsis of material from the end of the sentence, or to indicate how you're saying the sentence

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I have my own idiosyncratic way of ellipsis!

> That's something... ~ That's something --

Anonymous

18:22

@DamkerngT. Punctuation is to some extent a personal choice

Anonymous

I mean, I'm not sure anyone else punctuates exactly the way I do. :-)

Damkerng T.

> That's something ... ~ That's something (...)

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

I would never have picked up on that detail

Damkerng T.

> That's something. [...] ~ That's something. [Sentence. Sentence. Sentence.]

Anonymous

18:23

To me there's no difference whatsoever between including or not including a space before the three dots

Anonymous

Or between the three dots.

Damkerng T.

nods

I guess it's just my idiosyncrasy.

Anonymous

To indicate ellipted material from a quote, I always place the three dots in square brackets [...]

Damkerng T.

Aww... hellodear has left.

Anonymous

The older practice is simply to use three dots ... but it's now usual to use the square brackets, I believe [...]

Damkerng T.

18:24

@snailboat nods -- I usually use it to mean something longer than part of a sentence.

M.A.Ramezani

Wondering if they left because I asked them whether if they were Iranian or not.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani Probably not. Anyway...

@hellodear Please drop by again soon. (BTW, I'm glad that you're hellodear again now, not hellodear2.)

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Hellodear2? So it was a sequel?

@DamkerngT. Probably yes.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani He changed his username once.

0

A: Are these sentences simple or complex?

As I parse it, the first sentence is complex. The matrix clause has one subject, one verb, and two complements. They are coordinate complements joined by the correlative conjunction "not ... but". Subject: they Verb: are Complement 1: ever jealous for the cause Complement 2: jealous for they...

M.A.Ramezani

Some people here are overly paranoid around here about the internet.

Damkerng T.

18:28

Oh, this is close to what I think. (But it's quite long.)

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani I'm semi-anonymous here.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani Like?

Anonymous

Wait, by "around here" do you mean "on SE" or "in Iran"?

M.A.Ramezani

I dunno. They for example say that using the internet we expose sensitive info to CIA, NSA and etc.

Anonymous

Oh, that's what you're talking about

M.A.Ramezani

18:30

While I'd say they know everything about us, and if one slips away from their finger, they can easily obtain info about them.

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani I think it's more or less true.

M.A.Ramezani

I'm not saying @hellodear is one of those people though.

I barely know him.

So I thought, the fact that I found out he lives here made him worried or something.

Damkerng T.

I think the 2 was added because it was an accident.

(About his own password, iirc.)

M.A.Ramezani

Or it was a sequel.

Anonymous

It's true. The Panopticon is watching. Probably.

Anonymous

18:32

There is no escape.

M.A.Ramezani

More importantly, @Jim is watching.

BTW @snail I had a question.

Anonymous

Hello!

Anonymous

I'm here.

M.A.Ramezani

Does a pin (in chat) have a time out?

I mean, does it unpin itself after a week?

Or some time period like that?

Anonymous

Yes, pins expire

Anonymous

18:35

I believe after 14 days

M.A.Ramezani

Well, our Martin pinned some thingies to The Periodic Table's wall of stars and they got unpinned and he got all

in The Periodic Table, 2 days ago, by Martin - マーチン

Who unpinned the guidelines? @M.A.Ramezani or @LordStryker? Come on, spit it out >.<

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

in The Periodic Table, May 18 at 2:13, by Martin - マーチン

Have you read the chat guidelines, yet? Please weigh in on the discussion!

Anonymous

This?

M.A.Ramezani

Yup.

Anonymous

18:38

I found that by looking for messages 14 days before the message you linked to. :-)

M.A.Ramezani

Ha!

Let me go all breaking news to them.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's going to rain again!

(It's thundering outside.)

M.A.Ramezani

It occasionally does here too.

Damkerng T.

I personally don't like rain much.

Anonymous

I found a meta post:

Anonymous

18:42

2

A: Please show who pinned or unpinned a message

I haven't checked the specific issue, but be aware that pins are auto-removed after 14 days, because we found this feature to be abused too much. If you feel so strongly about a particular message, why don't you just post it again and pin the new one?

M.A.Ramezani

But today at 3:00 I was biking home and it was so hot, I'm officially baked now.

Damkerng T.

Fork, knife, ready!

Anonymous

Oh, my! Bike baked.

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. You can't eat baked cyclohexanes.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

18:44

M.A.Ramezani

You would drink them though.

C6H12 + O2 -> CO2 + H2O.

I'm kinda Carbon dioxide gas and liquid water.

Biphasic!

Damkerng T.

Aww... I guess they will like carbon again when it's diamond.

Hmm... I have a hunch that I will get another power outage soon.

Anonymous

Say, why is phasic used when discussing biphasic, polyphasic, etc. sleep cycles?

Damkerng T.

Cause it's in phases?

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. MWAHHAHAHHA etc. You'll taste what I tasted a month ago.

It's another phase.

I mean, something like, steps of sleep.

Anonymous

18:47

@DamkerngT. Oh. I guess that makes sense.

Anonymous

Biphasic, having two phases.

Damkerng T.

Oh, what an atmosphere. Thundering, howling, and a ghost story movie on TV!

M.A.Ramezani

@snailboat What I meant was physical phases.

Anonymous

I couldn't figure that out because I was stuck thinking of phase as in 0 to 2π

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani I know

M.A.Ramezani

18:48

And biphasic stuff are usually two liquids.

But since it was me, I used the term anyways.

Anonymous

It was clear from context that you were using the term as a chemistry term

Anonymous

Since you'd just chemistried left and right

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. Angry Birds Seasons?

@snailboat And sunder.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Saying anything -phrase, the first word came to mind is triphase!

Anonymous

But it made me think of biphasic sleep

Anonymous

18:49

@DamkerngT. Triphase? Give me an example

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani Perhaps the sky is salty. :P

@snailboat Our electricity is in three phrases.

Anonymous

You said phrase, then phase, then phrase

M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. You're really weird.

Anonymous

Are those the three? :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, sorry about the typos! :D

M.A.Ramezani

18:50

I'm back to my game!

Damkerng T.

@M.A.Ramezani I concur!

(Must be because of the howling...)

Style guide

A style guide is a set of standards for the writing and design of documents, either for general use or for a specific publication, organization, or field. A style guide establishes and enforces style to improve communication. To do that, it ensures consistency (within a document and across multiple documents) and enforces best practice in usage and in language composition, visual composition, orthography (including spelling, capitalization, hyphenation, and other punctuation), and typography. For academic and technical documents, a guide may also enforce best practice in ethics (such as authorship...

Wow! That's a lot of style guides!

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