ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

10:00

It's even stranger that the answer doesn't explain what this "a normal usage of 'as [something/s] goes/go'" is!

Imitating...

> Q: "What does “to pull a story” mean?"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It might mean something in a complete sentence

Damkerng T.

> A: It's a normal usage of "to pull something"!

Anonymous

In journalism, it could mean that you withdrew a story you were running

Anonymous

But in another sentence, it could have a very different meaning:

Anonymous

> Where'd you pull that story out of?

Damkerng T.

10:02

My hat!

:P

Anonymous

Oh! Well, that is fine and proper.

Anonymous

Yes, it's a rude sentence, but pull a story could easily have that meaning as well :-)

Anonymous

That's why it helps for people to give us context in their questions!

Damkerng T.

nods

In any case, I think it would be helpful if the answer included a definition of 'as [something/s] goes/go'.

(I just noticed that it's in code format!)

Anonymous

I had trouble finding a good definition

Damkerng T.

10:06

Maybe this: macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/…

Anonymous

I looked up go and as...

Anonymous

Hey!

Anonymous

Nice find.

Damkerng T.

grin :D

Anonymous

Where'd you find that one? :-)

Damkerng T.

10:07

Umm... on Macmillan, obviously! :D

Anonymous

I know, but I tried searching and I failed!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I tried typing as and saw macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/….

Then, I tried go and searched for as .

And right under the Phrases section, I found as someone/something goes!

Anonymous

Should I write an answer?

Damkerng T.

I think you should. :D

Even Maulik suggested this himself: However, the best person who can explain this is the answerer.

Anonymous

Okay! I wrote a short answer

Anonymous

10:14

It may not be bounty-worthy, but it quotes Macmillan :-)

Anonymous

Thanks for digging that up!

Damkerng T.

Yay! -- You're welcome!

Anonymous

I actually would've written an answer earlier if I could've found a definition myself

Damkerng T.

That entry is a bit like rare earth. :D

Anonymous

A lanthanide answer!

Damkerng T.

10:22

Hehe!

Finally, I can hear "sone" as "sun"! (Like a sun we will live to rise)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can twist vowels around quite a bit and still be understood!

Anonymous

Which is a good thing, 'cause English accents differ a lot in the vowels!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

Not just English, of course.

Anonymous

I think sometimes we understand from context more than anything.

Anonymous

10:27

If you plot VOT for /t/ and /d/ in Japanese, you'll find that they sometimes overlap (!)

Damkerng T.

I wonder if they can really tell the difference out of context, but maybe they can!

I mean, some /d/s are really like /t/s!

Anonymous

Maybe so. I mean, there are other cues besides VOT.

Anonymous

But I think context plays a large role

Anonymous

www2.ngu.ac.jp/uri/gengo/pdf/genbun_vol2402_02.pdf

Anonymous

By the way, a choice quote, not directly related:

Anonymous

10:30

> Takada (2011) reported findings suggesting that longer VOT values in Tohoku dialects have been spreading south and west over the last 50 years. This trend toward longer VOT values could be due to a spread from Tohoku, but it is perhaps more likely that English, with its longer VOT values, has been influencing the pronunciation of Japanese (T. Vance, personal communication, October 15, 2012).

Anonymous

(Timothy Vance is the author of The Sounds of Japanese)

Anonymous

The idea that it's an English influence is an interesting one

Damkerng T.

Oh!

That's very interesting!

Oh, BTW, this is probably related. Vocalized Thai /ch/s in songs are usually pronounced as /sh/ starting from maybe about 25-30 years ago.

Our /t/s in songs also become more like English /t/. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! You're losing your [t]!

Anonymous

If tɕ is becoming ɕ

Damkerng T.

10:37

(IMO) I think it became like that because of one singer. :D

Anonymous

Oh yeah?

Damkerng T.

Yes!

นินจา Christina Aguilar

►

I remember it was an overnight hit!

Anonymous

Tangentially related: I think Nirvana's popular album Nevermind may be a big contributor to why so many people write nevermind instead of never mind these days :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

It's all about pop culture!

Notice her /t/ at 0:40.

That's definitely an English /t/. :D

Anonymous

Japanese singers sometimes use notably English-influenced phonetics

Damkerng T.

10:41

I'm kinda her fan, though. :D

Anonymous

(Not to mention using English itself a lot :-)

Anonymous

Ahh

Damkerng T.

ขอให้เหมือนเดิม - สุนทราภรณ์

►

Then: ให้ชิดชม (pronunciation: hai-chit-chom)

โอ๊ะ...โอ๊ย - ทาทา ยัง 【OFFICIAL MV】

►

A couple of decades ago: ขู่ว่าฉันต้องระวังให้ดี (pronunciation: "khuu-wa-chan-tohng-ra-wang-hai-dii")

แปดโมงเช้าวันอังคาร อัลบัม Tea time with palmy[Official Audio]

►

Can you tell [tɕʰ], [t], [tɕ] from one another in the first 25 seconds of the clip? :D

Anonymous

10:59

Apparently not :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Me either! I can do it because of the context! :D

Anonymous

I listened more than once, too!

Anonymous

Nice song, though!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

How do the tones interact with the melody?

Damkerng T.

11:01

I like all the songs above, though they can be used for observing language changes.

@snailboat Somehow the tones mostly fit the song in general.

I think the songwriters know how much they can bend it.

> แปดโมงเช้าวันอังคาร ถึงจะนานที่ผ่านมา -- paed-mong-[tɕʰ]ao-wan-ang-khan [tʰ]eung-[tɕ]a-nan-[tʰ]ii-phan-maa

> ตอนนั้นที่เธอร่ำลา พูดว่าเธอจะไป -- [t]ohn-nan-[tʰ]ii-[tʰ]e(r)-ram-laa phuud-wa-[tʰ]e(r)-[tɕ]a-pai

Anonymous

Nope, still can't tell! :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Fantasier

11:24

ถึงจะนานที่ผ่านมา is quit hard to catch. Song these days -_-"

Fantasier

11:34

@DamkerngT. She deleted the glottal stop that should be there at 1:27-1:29 วันอังคาร /wan.ʔaŋ.kʰa:n/ is pronounced [wanaŋkʰa:n]. That's a "surprise" (in my native language!)

Oh, no, she pronounces it like that the whole song. -_-

Anonymous

You've never heard it used spontaneously? My boys use it all the time when they say, "O Father of mine, how may I honor and obey you?" — Καrτhικ 45 secs ago

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Hehe!

Anonymous

Is that some sort of joke? Or is it a stereotyped phrase in some religion?

Anonymous

Or some other cultural thing I'm not familiar with?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Eh? So his boys are native speakers of English?

Anonymous

11:43

@DamkerngT. I have no idea

Anonymous

But it's hard to imagine an English speaking child spontaneously emitting that sort of sentence

Anonymous

That's why I wondered if the commenter was making a joke

Anonymous

2

A: What is the part-of-speech of the word "O" in the exclamatory sentence?

There happens to be a specific technical term for that word. You're looking at the vocative article. Authorities seem to disagree as to whether articles are adjectives. I happen to agree with those that say they are.

Anonymous

They accepted it!

Fantasier

They probably misunderstood the meaning of spontaneously?

Just a random guess thouugh.

Damkerng T.

11:48

I feel like I want to utter, "Oh, dear!"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hehe!

Fantasier

1

A: Is the following considered a comma splice?

"Comma splice" isn't a term with a strict definition. Generally, people use the term when they think a pair of independent clauses that are joined without a coordinator would be better written as separate sentences. In other words, they call this sort of thing a "comma splice" if they consider ...

I like how you distinguish "asyndeton" and "comma splice" :-P

Damkerng T.

+1!

Anonymous

Well, I don't use the term "comma splice" in the first place, personally :-)

Fantasier

I've seen it so much that to me it now connotes pedantry.

Damkerng T.

11:52

Oh, @Fantasier! 2:12 in ขอให้เหมือนเดิม! It's a long ฉัน [tɕʰan]. A typical ฉาน of my grandma's!

Fantasier

@Καrτhικ No doubt my son would, too, if that circumstance ever arose; but it hasn't yet. — StoneyB 3 mins ago

Haha ^

Anonymous

Hahah!

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. It's a song, and vowel lengths typically vary in songs, I think.

Anonymous

That's true in Japanese, too. Sorta.

Damkerng T.

11:53

@Fantasier Could be, but I think he could sing it with the short vowel just fine, if he wanted to.

Anonymous

In Japanese, the primary perceptual unit is the mora, and "long syllables" are made of two morae.

Anonymous

And often Japanese singers give each mora its own value in music.

Anonymous

But sometimes entire syllables are squished into the space where you'd expect a single mora.

Anonymous

And that can neutralize a vowel length distinction entirely

Damkerng T.

This instance has both qualities of the short and long vowels(!), I think.

Anonymous

11:56

Oh, you linked to Arnold Zwicky's blog! Yay!

Damkerng T.

Oh, in my comment, yes! :D

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Yeah... but I suspect it would be more melodic with a long vowel. You can indeed lengthen the final consonant (เอื้อน), but it wouldn't be as good.

Plus I doubt if your grandma used to lengthen the vowel when she was younger. You see, senior citizens tend to speak slowly and thus maybe lengthen some vowels.

Damkerng T.

Hahaha! That's an interesting point!

Fantasier

I think you could propose the long pronunciation as a free variant allophone, though :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... maybe it wasn't the case, I remember that when I was young some of my aunties (which were in their around 30-45) also had some of their ฉัน with this long (or semi-long) vowel too.

@Fantasier Possibly!

> ช้านไมรู่อิถำพั่นพรื่อ (ฉันไม่รู้จะทำยังไงดี)

Fantasier

12:03

Interesting. Maybe the short vowel wasn't so short :-P

Gowtham

what the hell is a paradigm collapse O.o I dint understand the reply @snailboat

Damkerng T.

@Gowtham Check this out: www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/Paradigm.html :-)

Fantasier

Looking for a new way to say "interesting" rather than just say "interesting"

The synonyms I can think of now are all too strong

Anonymous

@Gowtham Sorry, it was a joke :-)

Anonymous

@Fantasier In Japanese, きょうみぶかい is the closest word in meaning to 'interesting', but people don't say it nearly as often as おもしろい

Anonymous

12:13

People say interesting in English all the time!

Anonymous

It's funny how things like this don't really match up perfectly between languages

Anonymous

@Fantasier Sometimes you can show your interest without saying you find something interesting.

Damkerng T.

I can't think of a better word than interesting either.

Anonymous

"Oh, really?" "Huh! I didn't know that."

Anonymous

But I don't think there's a problem with saying interesting a lot :-)

Damkerng T.

12:18

How about Leonardo DiCaprio in a Southern accent: Gentleman, you had my curiosity, but now you have my attention. :P

Fantasier

@snailboat How do I do that in a chatroom?

Anonymous

@Fantasier Well, the next two things I said were attempts :-)

Fantasier

Oh, right. I unconsciously skipped that part :-P

Damkerng T.

1

Q: meaning of "knocking back on"

I'm reading Lawrence Block's memoir, in which he mentions about volunteer travel opportunities offered by Earthwatch. He explains that for a not-too-steep fee, one might join an expedition in aid of some environmental goal, such as to save the endangered red pandas. Then he says: Lynne and I ...

Eh, Cameroun?

Oh, it's not exactly the same as Cameroon, though closely related.

Anonymous

Hmm, I don't know anything about that topic

Damkerng T.

12:26

I heard about Cameroon the first time in a World Cup!

(Football, um, soccer, I mean.)

They came out of nowhere and they did really well in that World Cup.

So the spelling Cameroun got me curious.

Anonymous

Answering questions is like planting seeds

Anonymous

If you water them a lot, you get a tree.

Anonymous

No wait, I mean, you plant them, and then you watch your reputation slowly grow.

Gowtham

har

Anonymous

There's some sorta metaphor thingy somewhere in there.

Freddy

13:10

hola

Fantasier

13:23

facebook.com/365051483675284/photos/… Hahahaha That mistranslation. (the nosy one) Could be devastating @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

14:19

Arguably, none are perfect!

> Wife: Take it easy. He's just a kid!

> ภรรยา: ใจเย็น ๆ เขายังเป็นแค่เด็ก (lit. trans)

They'd really work if the students already knew them.

I think For better or for worst! is probably the worst one on the list.

A potential misuse.

> น่าเสียดายจัง วันนี้ร้านปิด!

> Poor thing. It's closed today!

> ถ้าไม่ทำการบ้าน พรุ่งนี้อาจารย์เอาแกตายแน่
*If you don't do your homework, your teacher will take you dead meat tomorrow.

Hello @Choko!

Choko

はろー

Damkerng T.

Oh! ハロー!

1

Q: "...stinking, petri dish of McDonald's infested filth my step daughter calls her wheels. "

What does the following sentence mean? ( I know each word's meaning in the sentence) James, a self-confessed petrolhead , offered up the car in a post titled: 'We’re Giving Away The Most Disgusting Peugeot The World Has Ever Seen.' He said: 'Just how badly do you treat your car? 'I bet it...

sentence-meaning

Interesting! At least two native speakers seem to read "McDonald's infested filth" as [ [McDonald's infested] filth ] rather than [ McDonald's [infested filth] ].

This must mean that they read McDonald's as "McDonald's stuff".

Damkerng T.

15:36

nods -- It's a tricky name!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes!

Anonymous

McDonald's is taken as a name and the 's is not taken as a genitive affix

Anonymous

It's just the name of the restaurant, and the car is infested with it―or apparently, as you put it, their stuff :-) Probably not infested with entire restaurants

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The latter would be hilarious! :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. People often refer to the food from a restaurant by the name of that restaurant

Anonymous

15:44

"I got McDonald's. You want some?" "Umm, no thanks!"

Damkerng T.

nods -- Though that once sounded odd in Thai. I think it's probably about the same now.

Anonymous

Ahh, I see!

Damkerng T.

16:07

All the answers are speculation, since no one here really knows the law. — pazzo 10 mins ago

Hmm... I think it isn't really about legalese.

Freddy

16:50

-2

A: as author of this work -- no article?

That is the way the law requires the legal term author to be written in this context, ie without an article.

the reason for that is here ^^

Anonymous

@Freddy Really? What law?

Freddy

@snailboat He wrote that comment "All the answers are speculation" because of that answer.

(I have no idea of law)

Freddy

17:11

"car for race" is this grammatically correct?

instead of "race car"

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I've only heard car for rent.

Anonymous

@Freddy No, "car for racing" is grammatical

Freddy

Okay, that is reason many books use that.

but it does not sound good!

Anonymous

@Freddy What do books use that doesn't sound good?

Freddy

17:26

"car for race" or "cancer of blood"(more weird). Normally my chemistry book have such language.

Anonymous

Hmm, car for race seems ungrammatical to me

Anonymous

It's okay in the kind of telegraphic style people use in, say, want ads, where they leave out articles and such

Freddy

same with cancer of blood. It should be blood cancer

Anonymous

Yeah, or cancer of the blood

Anonymous

The problem is that blood isn't a complete noun phrase on its own

Anonymous

17:31

It needs the

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Maybe it's legal writing. :P

I found something interesting, though.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You know, I actually spent a lot of time with legal writing in the past

Anonymous

Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat But your brother is!

Freddy

okay, thanks

Anonymous

17:34

True!

Anonymous

But there are enough laws in the US that you'd never finish reading them all, even if you wanted to

Damkerng T.

> books.google.com/books?id=O1m1bI5vCooC, page 79.

> ARTICLES. A. Omitted Before Party Denominations

> B. Wrongly Omitted.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Garner is the editor of Black's Law Dictionary

Damkerng T.

> C. Wrongly Inserted.

> D. Repeated.

@snailboat Oh!

Anonymous

It's very prestigious

Damkerng T.

17:36

(I guess cancer of blood is B. :-)

Anonymous

He's also a noted prescriptivist

Damkerng T.

Oh! I didn't feel that he is one!

Must be a very good one, though.

Anonymous

Not an unthinking prescriptivist, but yes, he takes a prescriptive approach to English

Anonymous

He coined the term "skunked"

Anonymous

snailboat

4.4k 1 22 42

word-choice grammar single-word-requests punctuation meaning grammaticality terminology

Damkerng T.

17:40

As in "cheated" or "to be defeated overwhelmingly"?

Anonymous

4444 reputation!

Anonymous

It's a good thing I'm still not superstitious :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Nope!

Anonymous

It's a term about language.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's scary!

Anonymous

17:41

He says a word is "skunked" when its meaning changes, but it's a subject of dispute and people can't agree how the word should be used

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

So the word is sort of ruined. If you use it now, no matter how you use it, it'll attract attention from some folks who think you're using it wrong

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

So you might as well avoid it.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

17:42

If you search on Google for "skunked term", you can find examples

Anonymous

I don't have a copy of Garner's book myself so I can't quote it

Anonymous

Aww, it got a close vote already :-)

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't link to the question I asked over here

Anonymous

5

Q: Is a hamburger considered a sandwich?

Today, a fellow user was given a CAPTCHA that looks like this: He wasn't sure how to solve the CAPTCHA, so he asked me: Are hamburgers considered sandwiches? Well, I couldn't figure it out, so I'm asking here! I know that the hamburger has in the past been called a sandwich. Wikiped...

food

Damkerng T.

> "Media--as a shortened form of communications media--is increasingly used as a mass noun. 'The media was overreacting,' Garner writes. 'While that usage still makes some squeamish, it must be accepted as standard.

@snailboat Hmm... I wouldn't. (haven't read the answers yet)

2

A: Is a hamburger considered a sandwich?

YES. Any item consisting of a filling served between 2 pieces of bread is a sandwich. Merriam-Webster says: Sandwich: 1a : two or more slices of bread or a split roll having a filling in between Hamburger: 2: a sandwich consisting of a patty of hamburger in a split typically roun...

Oh, that's a big YES!

Anonymous

17:46

@DamkerngT. I was afraid it might get closed, but I couldn't resist asking! :-)

Damkerng T.

That CAPTCHA is really tough!

Is that cake actually a sandwich? :P

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Garner on the putative descriptivist-prescriptivist "wars": greenbag.org/v7n3/v7n3_article_garner.pdf

Damkerng T.

A-ha! That can explain why I didn't feel he is a prescriptivist.

Anonymous

He considers himself firmly in the prescriptivist camp

Anonymous

As do most other folks

Damkerng T.

17:49

nods -- But with a different attitude. :D

Anonymous

Though Garner refers to himself as "a kind of descriptive prescriber", which is fair

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Like I said, he's not unthinking

Anonymous

He just happens to have opinions about how language should be used and shares them

Damkerng T.

This reminds me of the talk between Feynman and a stenotypist. :D

Anonymous

17:52

At any rate, it's worth being familiar with Bryan Garner and his work

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'm considering buying his book (maybe books)!

Anonymous

The book you'd find most relevant is Garner's Modern American Usage

Damkerng T.

I'm still trying to choose between his Garner's Modern American Usage and Garner's Dictionary of Legal Usage.

Anonymous

I can't speak to the other book

Damkerng T.

Judging from what I can see on Google Books, both books are very similar.

So, I think maybe the latter is the superset of the former.

Anonymous

17:55

Hmm, somehow I was not under that impression, but I guess I wouldn't know without doing more research...

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