ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

03:03

0

Q: "This type of element" or "This type of elements"

I hope this question is not too basic. I recently edited a question and was accused of correcting a phrase that was grammatically correct to a phrase that is now wrong. The context is: I have Sodium and Potassium. This type of element (i.e. elements considered to be metals)... I cha...

It would be nice for ELL!

Damkerng T.

03:16

This type of element--safe; These types of elements--safe (but probably not the intended meaning); These types of element--okay, but probably not the intended meaning; This type of elements--ungrammatical. See also: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=39244302, english.stackexchange.com/q/5539/11482. — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

A part of it was overwritten before I posted the comment!

This type of element--safe; These types of elements--safe (but probably not the intended meaning); These types of element--okay, but probably not the intended meaning; These type of elements--possible, but usually felt to be incorrect; This type of elements--ungrammatical. See also: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=39244302, english.stackexchange.com/q/5539/11482. — Damkerng T. 9 mins ago

Edited!

Damkerng T.

04:49

1

A: Pull On/Onto Top Of

In many cases, 'on' and 'onto' both can be used. However, what I suggest is when you have some 'movement' involved, 'onto' may work better (however, 'on' is not incorrect). On the other hand, when the movement is not there, using 'onto' is preferred over 'on'. So, in your example, the movement ...

Weird.

But I'll hear opinions from others.

I'm curious, what is your opinion on This type of houses in the Midwest are often boring and unimaginative, compared to this diverse types of houses in the Northeast? — Damkerng T. 40 secs ago

I'm really curious.

Damkerng T.

05:13

Maybe I should add my assertion a bit.

> I pulled the box onto top of the roof. (should be okay)

> I pulled the box onto the top of the roof. (okay)

> I pulled the box on top of the roof. (not okay in the intended meaning, i.e. using a rope to "move" a box on the ground "to" the rooftop)

> I pulled the box on the top of the roof. (not okay; the doesn't help)

> I pulled the box up to the rooftop. (probably the most natural and basic one)

> I pulled the box up the rooftop. (okay)

> I pulled the box up to top of the roof. (should be okay)

> I pulled the box up to the top of the roof. (okay)

> I pulled the box up top of the roof. (probably not kosher)

> I pulled the box up the top of the roof. (should be okay)

Damkerng T.

05:30

Hmm... this is kinda different. Though the pattern is the same (pull X on top of Y). I find this one acceptable.

> [H]e pulled her on top of him on the bare floor ...

Oh, yes. I forgot I pulled the box to the top of the roof.

> And I climbed back up on the post, and I thought to myself, I am going to die...' [WINFREY: That's when you... Mr-BERKUS:...] if I don't get on top,' because now it was up to me. And somehow I was able by just squeezing the side of the rooftop to pull my whole body on top of it.

That's probably the best example of "pull something from below on top of some other thing", though in this case the puller was not on top of that some other thing.

Probably pull X on top of Y is more feasible than pull X on the top of Y in this meaning.

Damkerng T.

07:21

Hi @Jim!

Jim Reynolds

07:36

Hi. I'm teaching. Miss y'all!!

Damkerng T.

Busy is good! Miss you too!

Freddy

09:19

hola

Iplodman

16:04

Hullo!

user116848

Hullo Ip!

Iplodman

How are you?

user116848

I am good, thanks. And you?

user116848

Just completing the assignments that my teacher gave.

user116848

And occasionally looking at the screen.

Iplodman

16:08

Well, I had a GCSE test today.

user116848

Chat keeps me double busy. I like it that way.

Iplodman

:)

user116848

@Iplodman Yeah? How did it go?

Iplodman

One of the easiest tests I've ever done!

user116848

I hope it went well.

Iplodman

16:09

I hope so too!

user116848

@Iplodman Very nice :D

Iplodman

:)

Damkerng T.

19:54

A-ha! We might get something good out of it. The OP decided to edit the question.

3

Q: "This type of element" or "This type of elements"

I hope this question is not too basic. I recently edited a question and was accused of correcting a phrase that was grammatically correct to a phrase that is now wrong. The context is: I have Sodium and Potassium. This type of element (i.e. elements considered to be metals)... I cha...

grammar phrases

> Is there a trusted source which claims the use of "this type of things" to be ungrammatical?

ELL questions often are the hardest ones on ELU.

Catija

.... "this" is singular and "these" is plural... in this case, "things" is plural, so it requires "these"... not sure how that's confusing.

Damkerng T.

@Catija From a non-native speaker's point of view, it's kinda counter-intuitive. I mean I'd expect this to modify type. Fortunately, I've learned it the hard way. :-)

I think I'm not fully awake!

Catija

But it's "Type of things"... not "this type" of things.

And, technically, one could argue that it should be "Types of things".

Damkerng T.

Yes, that's the confusion. And I guess it's another trap for most learners.

This type of element--safe; These types of elements--safe (but probably not the intended meaning); These types of element--okay, but probably not the intended meaning; These type of elements--possible, but usually felt to be incorrect; This type of elements--ungrammatical. See also: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=39244302, english.stackexchange.com/q/5539/11482. — Damkerng T. 17 hours ago

What do you think about my assertions?

@Catija nods -- I think types of things is much safer.

Catija

@DamkerngT. From the question, pluralizing "elements" is wrong in the first place. It's a single "type of element"... it's just that the list of elements has more than one thing on it.

Damkerng T.

20:06

Yes. I tried to generalize it because I thought I knew what the OP was wondering about.

I mean, I thought he wanted to generalize it too.

Hmm... reading my own comment once again, I think I should downgrade These types of element from "okay" to "may be possible".

Catija

@DamkerngT. I think mixing of case is wrong. I'm sure there are some examples somewhere of it being correct but, in general, I think that your first two assertions are correct and the other two are generally ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... interesting! I didn't expect that. Thanks for the feedback!

Catija

@DamkerngT. I posted a comment there. Does it make sense to you?

Damkerng T.

Yes. I know that the examples the OP uses are still not good enough.

I think we need something that the plural of "things" really does have its own semantic where writing "thing" would make it sound wrong.

Let me think for a bit.

(But generally, yes, [this] kind/type of X (singular) is much safer.)

> I think about the type of words to use for the first word observation activity.

Perhaps something like that. (It's from Google Books.)

> Nouns are my favorite type of words, ...

^I think the author must've felt that it would be awkward to write Nouns are my favorite type of word.

Catija

Both of those examples are actually wrong. :P

Damkerng T.

20:21

hah!

Catija

I can't tell what the first one should be but I'm guessing it should be "types of words".

The second one should definitely be "Nouns are my favorite type of word".

Damkerng T.

How about this one?

> The best way to deal with a visually oriented person is to increase your speaking rate to match his and use the same type of words he does.

Hmm... type of word is still safer.

Catija

Should be "types of words".

Damkerng T.

It's a very common error, then?

Catija

Yes... which begs the question, is it really an error... For the purpose of a learner, I'd still say that it is. Leave the bad English to the natives :P

Damkerng T.

20:26

> It is well documented that children in their second year vary enormously in both the number and type of words they use (Nelson 1981, cited by Tomasello and Todd 1983:198).

Catija

That's a compound one... so you might be able to say it's correct. "number + type" = plural "words".

Damkerng T.

@Catija And then we will fall into another trap, exactly the trap that all the grammar books for learners have fallen into: let's simplify all the usage to rules, and have the learners remember just them.

Result? We got another kind of English. :-)

@Catija Good point!

Catija

They teach us rules, too... we just ignore them most of the time, once we're over the age of 10 or 12.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Catija

I'm sure that you learned "rules" for your native language... right?

Damkerng T.

20:29

It's a sad set of rules, imho.

Unfortunately, our grammar was written, if I'm not mistaken, based on English grammar.

Catija

What's your native language, anyway?

Damkerng T.

Thai.

Catija

Ah! Fun. Is it crazily American of me to say "I love Thai food!"... particularly considering our "Thai" probably isn't that similar to yours. :P

Damkerng T.

LOL -- That's quite possible!

I'm glad to hear you love it, still. :-)

Catija

But that sticky rice with the mango on top... so good. And that egg custard...

Damkerng T.

20:32

Oh, yes! ข้าวเหนียวมะม่วง and สังขยา!

Catija

Gang Kiew Warn? The green curry... so spicy and delicious... and seriously, your alphabet is beautiful.

Damkerng T.

You really know Thai food! Gang Kiew Warn ~ แกงเขียวหวาน

Thanks!

Catija

I know that gai is chicken!... because I always order my tom kha with gai.

Damkerng T.

Oh, ต้มข่าไก่ is my favorite!

Catija

Oh really? I want to go to Thailand sometime to see if the real Thai is similar at all to what we have here. But I love the coconut milk, galangal root and lemongrass combo...

Damkerng T.

20:36

:D -- It sounds like it's pretty close to the original!

What city do you live in?

I think there are quite a few cities that there are lots of Thais there. So maybe you've really enjoyed the real dishes. :-)

Catija

I currently live in Austin, TX but I grew up in Seattle, and I'm pretty sure they have a good community of Thai people. I've never had Thai food as good as it was there but some places have come close.

Is Pad Thai really something they have there? Broad rice noodles, scrambled egg, tofu, scallions, peanuts... I think it's got a small amount of tamarind in the "sauce"... though it's not usually very saucy.

Damkerng T.

I see. I shouldn't've forgotten that. I think you mentioned Austin once.

@Catija Yes, it's a popular dish! (ผัดไทย)

Catija

Is it normally spicy? With a lot of pepper? In Seattle it was always spicy but outside of Seattle they make it bland and you have to ask them to add the peppers.

Damkerng T.

(Sometimes ก๊วยเตี๋ยวผัดไทย, ก๊วยเตี๋ยว ~ noodle)

@Catija It depends on the cook. :-)

Catija

Ah. Ok. I guess that makes sense.

Damkerng T.

20:43

Some cooks know that not everyone can handle strong spicy stuff, so they let the customers add the red pepper later.

Catija

I like spicy from an American standpoint but I understand that the true strength of "Asian" spicy, whether it's Thai or Indian or... wherever... can be much more than what we get here.

Damkerng T.

It happens to some of us over here, too! I'm not really good at spicy food, actually. :-)

So, sometimes I have to add: Pad Tai, kindergarten!

Catija

Ah, that's nice to hear. My husband is from Ohio and I'm from Texas... I'm used to spicy food because of being so near to Mexico but Ohio is (or at least was) pretty bland... he's still not as good at spicy food as I am. :P

Damkerng T.

I think that kind of expression was originated from a noodle shop. They grade the spicy-ness from kindergarten's spicy to doctor's spicy. Almost none can handle doctor's spicy. :P

I think most people would enjoy the high school or university level of theirs. :-)

Iplodman

Hullo!

Damkerng T.

20:50

Hallo!

Iplodman

How are you?

Catija

That's a really fun way of doing it! Here they just do it on a scale of 1-5 or 1-3 in stars or peppers... or just words, mild, medium, hot.

Hillo?

Damkerng T.

Good. Thanks. How was your exam going?

Iplodman

@DamkerngT. Great! One of the easiest I've done :)

Damkerng T.

@Iplodman Yay!

Iplodman

20:51

:)

I have two more coming up :(

Damkerng T.

22:44

2

A: helping with a relative clause and impersonalization

If reviving traditional music is facilitated, one is seemed to use the results to understand traditional arts as much as possible, since all arts are traced back into cultural and traditions of the same nation. There are three major errors in this sentence: ... into cultural and traditio...

Nice corrections!

Damkerng T.

22:57

> Yet as the offenses are not equal, and as the punishment is arbitrary, that is, according as the judges in their discretion shall direct to be inflicted; is it not absolutely necessary that they should know whether the libel is true or false, that they may by that means be able to proportion the punishment?

> english.stackexchange.com/questions/178547/with-submission

> books.google.com/books?id=kNzbNURqPwUC&pg=PT102

> ell.stackexchange.com/a/56641/3281

To me, the according as is not as interesting as to be inflicted.

Maybe it's just that I still haven't read the whole passage.

(I expected shall direct to inflict.)

Maybe the judge was talking about the "burden" imposed upon him, rather than the "verdict" that he would have to deliver.

oed.com/view/Entry/…

I can't get to any OED definitions! -- sad

> 1. What lexical category is as in Definition 2 above?
2. What's the grammatical function of as?
What more can we specify, besides just a complement of the adverb according?
3. Which ODO definition for as matches as in Definition 2 above?

1), 2), and 2.1) are probably best answered along the lines of "it just is".

As for 3), believe it or not, reading it as [according-because] still makes sense to me, even!

I asked a couple of people who teach writing. They say "besides" in conversation but would write "Aside from" in anything even slightly formal :) — TRomano 9 hours ago

That's more like it!

Damkerng T.

23:44

> "How do we get it [an elevator] open?"
"We have to kill the power to it."

It's interesting, grammatically, I think. "kill the power to it".

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