ELL's Cabin

Anonymous

22:00

A soku-on is /Q/

Anonymous

(That usually represents a geminate consonant, but at the end of an utterance is a glottal stop as we discussed)

Anonymous

The moraic nasal is /N/

Anonymous

And the moraic palatal vowel is /J/

Damkerng T.

The most common one, maybe.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Which is the most common?

Damkerng T.

22:01

I meant the /N/!

Anonymous

Ah! You could well be right about that!

Anonymous

It's easy to tell people what /N/ is. It's ん!

Anonymous

Though a linguist's description is much longer :-)

Damkerng T.

Typing on iPad can feel like using chopsticks with gloves on!

Anonymous

And it's easy to justify giving ん its own phoneme for two reasons:

Anonymous

22:02

1. We can come up with minimal pairs between /N/ and /n/:

Anonymous

簡易　かんい　/kaNi/ 'simple; easy'
蟹　　かに　　/kani/ 'crab'

Anonymous

2. Japanese has a phonotactic restriction against /n/ without a following vowel, but it doesn't hold for /N/

Anonymous

But there are alternative views of Japanese phonology in which there is no /N/ archiphoneme

Anonymous

If we suggest that there is a "null phoneme", which we'll write /'/

Anonymous

With no phonetic realization

Anonymous

22:05

Then we can write:

Anonymous

簡易　かんい　/kan'i/ 'simple; easy'
蟹　　かに　　/kani/ 'crab'

Anonymous

But I mostly ignore this point of view :-)

Anonymous

Of course, the people who came up with it are much smarter than me! :-)

Damkerng T.

I think we had a null phoneme a while ago.

Anonymous

For a while it was fashionable in linguistics (heck, it still is!) to propose "zero" stuff.

Anonymous

22:07

(Zero = null)

Anonymous

> I like fish!

Anonymous

No article? No problem! We'll just say it's got a zero article!

Anonymous

> I like Ø fish!

Anonymous

Now we can claim every noun phrase has a determiner!

Anonymous

It makes our rule neat and tidy, and who doesn't like that? :-)

Damkerng T.

22:08

:D

Anonymous

> I came, I saw, I conquered.

Anonymous

No coordinator? No problem! We'll just say these are all "zero" coordinated.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

Now we can call each of those thingies a "coordinand" because they're all operands of a coordinator (a type of operator)

Anonymous

You just can't see or hear the coordinator.

Anonymous

22:09

It's invisible!

Damkerng T.

Well, we can say that people use zero capitalization and periods in chat, perhaps? :-)

Anonymous

See how useful this "zero" stuff is for making everything systematic? :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. thats a great idea

Anonymous

im using capitalization and apostrophes and periods you just cant see them

Damkerng T.

LOL!

LOLROTF!

Anonymous

22:13

@DamkerngT. In Japanese grammar

Anonymous

Particles are very often "omitted"

Anonymous

That's the modern point of view

Anonymous

The idea that each sentence starts out "complete" and then things are "omitted"

Anonymous

Certain things are omitted most of the time

Anonymous

It makes for a neater description, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with looking at it that way

Anonymous

22:14

But it's not really historically how it came about, I don't think

Damkerng T.

Not the other way around?

Anonymous

It's more like, people insert particles when they want to

Damkerng T.

I like your idea better!

Anonymous

I might be called crazy for saying this, but I think at some level it's truer to say that people add particles than remove them :-)

Anonymous

In fact, the idea that a sentence is only complete with everything explicitly marked is a fairly modern invention

Damkerng T.

22:17

บ้านอยู่ไหน (Where's your home?) is already a complete utterance. บ้านอยู่ที่ไหน (also Where's your home?) is used when we want to make it sound longer (or more complete, more polite, more formal, etc.)

Anonymous

Give me a minute, I'm slow at this... :-)

Anonymous

What is ที่?

Damkerng T.

~ at

I should've added some glosses: บ้าน = home/house, อยู่ = be/locate/stay, ไหน = where/which

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But it's not actually standing in for that entire sentence

Anonymous

It's just that it was used in sentences like that which were used as greetings

Anonymous

22:23

And then as it became a stereotyped utterance, it became less necessary to supply the rest of the sentence

Anonymous

Until it started being a complete sentence on its own :-)

Anonymous

So it's not a contraction of any original, longer sentence

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, thank you :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

Anonymous

We discussed อยู่ before

Anonymous

22:24

But I don't know the others :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Anytime. I should've added it in he first place anyway.

Anonymous

Well, I don't really "know" อยู่ either, but I know we talked about it as a be verb! :-)

Anonymous

I guess it's "locative be"

Damkerng T.

Yes, it's one of the three main words we use roughly the same way as "be".

@snailboat It is! (Though it has some other meanings too.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Verbs of that sort usually require a lot of description in any language

Anonymous

22:29

In Japanese, two of the basic verbs corresponding to "be" are iru are aru

Damkerng T.

Argh! Hagu is playing with my iPad!

Anonymous

Both can be used as a sort of locative be

Anonymous

テーブルの上にある '[it] is on the table'

Anonymous

I just had to use it in English because English has a syntactic requirement for a subject

Anonymous

Japanese has no such requirement, but...

Anonymous

22:31

Some linguists (specifically generative linguists) say every language has that requirement

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

Extended Projection Principle

The Extended Projection Principle (EPP) is a linguistic hypothesis about the obligatoriness of subjects. It was proposed by Noam Chomsky as an addendum to the Projection principle. The basic idea of the EPP is that clauses must contain a NP or DP in the subject position (i.e. in the specifier of TP or IP, or in the specifier of VP in languages in which subjects don't raise to TP/IP such as Welsh). Most verbs require meaningful subjects—for example, "kick" in "Tom kicked the ball" takes the subject "Tom". However, other verbs do not require (and in fact, do not permit) meaningful subjects—for example...

Damkerng T.

Zero subject, they say, I guess!

Anonymous

Yeah! They call it pro

Anonymous

Japanese being pro-drop, they would say the subject of my clause above is pro

Damkerng T.

22:33

I think it's rather clear that the principle is wrong (or at least not correct for every language).

Anonymous

Well, these things are stated as theories

Anonymous

As long as it makes the right predictions, it's not exactly "wrong"

Anonymous

But!

Anonymous

It may not be particularly parsimonious

Anonymous

I think it introduces a lot of ideas it doesn't need to

Anonymous

22:34

And I think there are simpler ways of thinking about it that are at least as accurate :-)

Anonymous

So I don't think we have any need for theories like those

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

At any rate, I don't think there are any facts that support the idea

Anonymous

It comes from Chomsky's declaration, which I think is more or less wrong

Anonymous

He said that if Martians came to visit Earth, they'd think we all spoke a single language with different dialects

Anonymous

22:36

That's his Universal Grammar idea

Damkerng T.

I think the idea is sort of a kind of dehumanization, in the sense that it separates us human beings, the language users, from the language itself.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that both constituent and non-constituent fragments can be grammatical and meaningful

Anonymous

I think we build language from pieces as we go

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

And I don't think there is a whole lot that's hidden

Anonymous

22:38

I think the research on incremental processing shows that our mental structure doesn't actually parallel the dominant constituent-based language models

Anonymous

I think we start building meaning as soon as we start speaking or hearing

Anonymous

And the pieces end up fitting together :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... that's really cool (and more logical than the model)!

Anonymous

Coming into focus as we add more details to narrow the meaning

Anonymous

But there's a lot we don't know how about how language works in our minds (since we can't perceive it directly!) and the constituent-based models are still useful for description :-)

Damkerng T.

22:41

Constituent-based models are really useful, particularly for formal written language.

0

Q: "... business card with the writing facing the recipient..."

What does the highlighted part mean in the following passage please? In Japan, there are strict norms involving the exchange of business cards. One person presents his or her business card with the writing facing the recipient, who looks at it for a moment and asks a question about some...

sentence-meaning

Oh, interesting!

Anonymous

They teach you a specific way to hand them to people, too

Anonymous

But here in the US, business cards don't mean very much :-)

Anonymous

@Murat: I can't say for sure but as bc's are in most cultures (that I know of) exchanged while standing I strongly assume so. Bowing correctly would be hard while sitting, as would be storing the card case in your inner breast pocket of the jacket (where it is supposed to go) without getting it into disarray. Remember that cards are usually part of the introduction process, which happens before everyone settles at the conference table. — Stephie 57 mins ago

Anonymous

In the US, I've pulled business cards out of my wallet and just handed them to people while we were sitting around :-)

Anonymous

Don't know what I need with 1500 of them, anyway!

Anonymous

22:48

But hey, they're free :-)

Anonymous

(Well, free as in someone else paid for them!)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Do you give people business cards with two hands in Thailand?

Damkerng T.

Umm... no. I guess it's pretty much the same as in the US. :D

Anonymous

Ahh, I thought it might be the same as Japan in other Asian countries

Damkerng T.

22:51

I'm always usually busy collecting information about the other based on their verbal and non-verbal info rather than the info on the card during an exchange. :-)

The card is useful for addressing their title, and their company name properly, along with the contact info.

It's also not very rare that giving our business cards will actually be the last thing we do before leaving! :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japan, the correspondence between the spoken name and the kanji used to write it aren't always obvious

Anonymous

Business cards make it clear :-)

Damkerng T.

A-ha! In Thai too!

Thai has too many ways to write the same sound. (Though the pronunciation of a spelling is usually unambiguous.)

(For example, we have 44 consonant letters, but we have only 21 starting consonant sounds.)

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

Now that you mention it, I guess it's not always clear in English.

Anonymous

22:58

Are you talking to Laurie or Lori? To Lee or Leigh?

Damkerng T.

From sound to spelling? Yes!

Though it's relatively easy to read Thai names, some names could be really puzzling! For example, รรรรรร is a real name.

(reads "ra-ran-ron" = ร รรร รร)

I guess that the spelling is much more complicated in Japanese because of the kanji.

Iirc, some kanji are only used for names, even!

1

Q: What's wrong with 'to predicate on/upon'?

[OED:] 5. {trans. orig. U.S.} To affirm or postulate on the basis of; to base on or found upon. Criticized by a number of grammarians of the mid 19th cent. ... Would someone please explain the bolded? Why was this criticised? OED is too brusque.

grammaticality

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, that is more or less correct!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Can I answer that with this?

books.google.com/books?id=1KsZBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA133

@snailboat Yay! I remember it correctly!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There is a specific list of characters Japanese citizens can use for their children

Anonymous

But there are no rules for how those characters should be read

Damkerng T.

23:12

Oh! I can't remember this part (it's vaguely coming back to me.)

Anonymous

Basically, there's the 常用漢字 jōyō kanji (lit. "general use Han characters") and the 人名用漢字 jinmei-yō kanji (lit. "human name use Han characters")

Anonymous

So in addition to the general use characters, you can use a number of characters specifically for names

Anonymous

Though in real life people often use characters outside the general use list in actual writing, and some of those are names-use kanji

Anonymous

Some characters, I think, are essentially not used outside of names, or are very rarely used outside of names

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

23:15

That's my understanding of the situation, anyway―of course, I'm neither a parent nor a Japanese citizen! :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I've already forgotten what name I picked for my Amazon Japan user account!

(Must be weird sounding in Japanese. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I have a bunch of silly sounding Japanese account names :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

I think my first as a teenager was kokoronai tenshi (lit. "Heartless Angel")

Anonymous

I don't think that account exists anymore... :-)

Damkerng T.

23:18

Aww

You're now more like kokoro tenshi. :-)

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

I guess the direct opposite would be kokoro aru tenshi :-)

Anonymous

I would expect a no in there, though: kokoro no aru tenshi

Damkerng T.

Ah!

Anonymous

But that kind of spoils it :-)

Damkerng T.

23:19

Indeed! I hacked the language before I knew it. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, ある and ない are opposites

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

In Japanese, almost every verb or adjective can be negated with ない

Anonymous

あるく　　　'walk'
あるかない　'walk (negative)'

Anonymous

Oops, bad example, I should have picked one that didn't begin with ある :-) That's just a coincidence

Anonymous

23:21

はしる　　　'run'
はしらない　'run (negative)'

Anonymous

The major exception is ある 'be'

Anonymous

Instead of saying あらない, you just say ない!

Damkerng T.

Ah, it's like the base word!

Oh, I opted for the most obvious one: ダンゲンテエ

(As my Amazon Japan account name)

Anonymous

A-ha!

Anonymous

The same name you said earlier in chat :-)

Damkerng T.

23:23

Yes!

Anonymous

Say, how do you pronounce the ‹k› in Damkerng?

Damkerng T.

Like English k when it's after s.

Anonymous

I noticed you picked ゲ instead of ケ

Damkerng T.

Oh, probably accidentally!

Google Translate reads my name (ดำเกิง) correctly, but the transcription (Dảkeing) is incorrect.

Anonymous

Interesting!

Anonymous

23:26

In Japanese, /ɴ/ ん becomes [ŋ] before /k/

Anonymous

(Well, any velar consonant: /k/ or /g/)

Damkerng T.

I don't know if we can force the "m" sound there in Japanese.

Anonymous

So ダンゲン /daɴgeɴ/ is possibly something like [daŋgeɴ] (if I can omit other details from my phonetic transcription)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... if ダンケン will sound like the Japanese pronunciation of Duncan?

Anonymous

Yeah :-) Similar

Damkerng T.

23:28

Hehe!

Anonymous

The quality of the /ɴ/ at the end will vary depending

Damkerng T.

Maybe that's why I opted for ゲ instead of ケ!

Anonymous

Duncan is ダンカン /daɴkaɴ/

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's another vowel!

Anonymous

Lemme explain a little about /ɴ/

Anonymous

23:30

It becomes [m] before labial consonants: in コンピュータ /koɴpyuuta/, we have [mp]

Anonymous

So before /b/ or /p/, it sounds like [m]

Anonymous

And in loanwords, you'll find [m] tends to become ん if it's before one of those consonants

Anonymous

But otherwise, [m] becomes む, adding an epenthetic /u/

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

So Korean 김치 kimchee becomes キムチ /kimuti/

Damkerng T.

23:33

nods -- Which sounds a bit unlike the original.

Maybe I can change the name to ダムケンテエ. :-)

Success!

Anonymous

(phonemic /ti/ is [tɕi] or chi because /t/ turns into a palatal affricate before /i/)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, you can change it! :-)

Anonymous

I don't personally know much about how Thai names are usually spelled in Japanese

Damkerng T.

I just changed it a few secs ago! :D

I remember that the word "kimchee" was mockingly pronounced as "kimochi" in a Korean TV show.

Anonymous

The Japanese pronunciation has the epenthetic /u/: kimuchi

Damkerng T.

23:38

(After the guests in the show made a long series of mistakes at guessing Chinese/Kanji characters.)

Anonymous

Umm, I think the ch is aspirated in Korean and not in Japanese

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I couldn't tell the difference!

(I mean the way they mockingly pronounced it in the show.)

Anonymous

Ahh, I don't know how they pronounced it :-)

Damkerng T.

But I remember that it's from Running Man. (Jimsug must know this show. :-)

Anonymous

Jimsug, fan of kimchee!

Damkerng T.

23:41

Oh, sorry @Jimsug! I misspelled your name because I was thinking too much about kimchee!

Anonymous

Hee

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what they criticized about in the mid 19th century, but it was probably along the idea discussed in this book, Medical Writing: books.google.com/books?id=1KsZBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA133. (By the way, I can't access that OED page.) — Damkerng T. 2 mins ago

I hope it's better than nothing.

Anonymous

I think it's just the usual "Hey, that's not how we speak! That's bad!" followed by "Wow, a hundred years passed and I didn't even notice! What were we complaining about, again?"

Damkerng T.

23:57

LOL

That's probably true!

Anonymous

Maybe I'll leave that as a comment.

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