ELL's Cabin

StoneyB

00:27

@DamkerngT. Hi, DT. I was off eating dinner.

Damkerng T.

01:05

@StoneyB Hello again! I was away from keyboard. How are you?

StoneyB

01:38

@DamkerngT. Drifting in and out ... I don't seem to be being pinged. Maybe I've -- yes, I had my audio muted. 'doh!

Is MAR getting ready for a major Eh exam?

Damkerng T.

LOL -- I'm in and out regularly myself too.

@StoneyB I feel like he is always ready for any exam. :-)

StoneyB

I have no doubt he feels he is!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

StoneyB

It's what comes after the exam that's hard. My wife's favorite line to her freshmen: "You're not in high school any more."

Damkerng T.

LOL

Indeed.

StoneyB

01:42

It takes them about one semester to figure that out.

Damkerng T.

Exactly what happened to me, too!

I got all possible grades in my first U semester. :-)

StoneyB

I wonder if I should tell Catija that MAR writes better English than most NS freshmen ...

Damkerng T.

A, B,C, D, F, W, X, you name it. :P

@StoneyB Sometimes he made me think he wasn't really 16.

StoneyB

It was second semester tripped me up, when I relaxed and flunked (let's not tell MAR) Chemistry.

Damkerng T.

Hah! It was chemistry for me too!

StoneyB

01:45

But I retook it over the summer and got a B.

Damkerng T.

I had to retake it a year later, but the lab hooked me up with a pretty girl. :-)

That was my excuse for that C.

StoneyB

My excuse for the F was girls, too: that's when I hooked up with two chicks named Thalia and Melpomene, the muses of Comedy and Tragedy.

Damkerng T.

Wow!

Melpomene reminds me of the name of a city in Asimov's novel.

StoneyB

I didn't get out of their clutches for 30 years.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

StoneyB

01:50

Which Asimov? I used to know all of his stuff.

His autobiography is fascinating.

Damkerng T.

I think it's in Foundation and Earth, when Trevize looked for Earth all over the galaxy.

Oh, it wasn't a city name, it was a planet name. Sorry!

I remember that it was Melno-something, maybe Melnopomia.

Oh, the planet name was Melpomenia! (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_and_Earth)

StoneyB

That's a late one; I read it when it came out but haven't seen it since. --Heavens, that's almost 30 years ago! I'm really getting old.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I can't remember when I read it.

Maybe about 10 years ago.

StoneyB

I'm a v e r y s l o w reader these days: I think I've been reading Game of Thrones for the last ten years, and I haven't caught up yet.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought Game of Thrones was more recent than that!

Maybe because it just became so popular only recently.

I wonder how long an average landmark novel has to wait before it's become a big hit.

StoneyB

01:59

The first volume was published in 1996.

George Martin is even slower than I am.

Damkerng T.

Wow! That's almost 20 years!

Wikipedia says he is 67 this year.

StoneyB

My age. And still has two volumes to go.

Damkerng T.

I wonder maybe I might've read some of your work. :-)

StoneyB

Only what's on ELL/ELU. Unless you've been training as an insurance agent.

Damkerng T.

Oh! Hehe!

StoneyB

02:06

@DamkerngT. LotR was published in 54-55, and didn't take off until 63.

Damkerng T.

Do AIA life insurance contracts count? -- Hmm... but all the contracts I made with AIA are in Thai.

@StoneyB That's almost a decade!

StoneyB

American Institute of Architects?

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Oh, wait... Is it AIA or AIG over there?

StoneyB

Ah, AIG -- they were the folks whose reinsurance subsidiary got killed in the crash.

Damkerng T.

Yes! The branch over here had to readjust their structure a bit, iirc, but it turned out that the company here survived the crash fine.

StoneyB

02:12

Dunno about Thailand, but in the US life insurance is just about the most thoroughly regulated financial instrument there is, so it was largely untouched by the crash.

Damkerng T.

I believe it's quite similar here, which is quite fortunate for me. I don't want to think what would've happened if AIA here had crashed!

StoneyB

02:25

According to Wikipedia, the Fed made AIG sell out of AIA -- it's now owned by a UK group, Prudential plc.

No, I'm wrong. The Pru deal fell through, and AIA bought itself with a $20.5B IPO in 2010.

Damkerng T.

Oh! I didn't know that!

StoneyB

0

Q: Take Her By The Arm To Some Place

I have a question about usage of "take". In this dictionary, definition 1 for "take" reads: to move something or someone from one place to another In the same entry, definition 7 for "take" reads: to reach out and get something, especially with your hand Then, on google, th...

What is meatie's problem?!

Damkerng T.

It looks like AIA Thailand is now a company under a new group, AAGIY, a listed company on Hong Kong stock market.

@StoneyB I think meatie was trying to understand (or substitute) the meaning of words or phrases according to definitions in dictionaries.

And it seems like they think definitions are always mutual exclusive.

From Macmillan: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/take_1

2. [transitive] to cause someone to move somewhere take someone into/out of/up/through etc. something: My old job took me into the city a lot.

7 [transitive] to reach out and get something, especially with your hand take someone by the arm/hand etc.: Her mother took her gently by the shoulders.

StoneyB

I reely wanna ask these folks if that's the way their languages work.

Damkerng T.

If it's 2, it mustn't be 7, and vice versa.

@StoneyB I wonder how it works in their first language too!

Oh, I think I picked the wrong definition meatie had picked

1 [transitive] to move something or someone from one place to another take someone to/into/around something: What time do you take Amy to school?

I think it's 1 vs. 7 for them.

I know their problem but I don't know how to address the problem, nor how to fix it.

StoneyB

02:37

Maybe it's because so many SE folks are computer guys and think English was designed by somebody fiendishly clever like Niklaus Wirth.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Oh, I miss Turbo Pascal.

StoneyB

I loved that language. It was almost impossible to compile anything stupid.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Absolutely true!

I've designed a small language for telephony applications, so I can say that designing a good language is not easy. There were too many loopholes in my design, but it was application specific, and its user-base wasn't large (I wonder if any of them still running), so it did its job sort of okay.

StoneyB

I never tried to write an actual language. My most ambitious project was Hebrew word processor -- without knowing a word of Hebrew!

Damkerng T.

Hah! How could it be possible?! Oh, maybe Hebrew alphabet is enough.

I wonder if my small language is really qualified as an actual language. Maybe it's Turing complete, but only defectively!

StoneyB

02:52

The tricky part was bypassing the MS-DOS character display and substituting my own design of the Hebrew alphabet and vowel points. I got that working, but I never could figure out how to get it onto a printer ...

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB You should've contacted me back then. :P

StoneyB

If the computer does what you tell it to do, it's a language. Pidgin-Turing, maybe!

Damkerng T.

Getting Thai characters onto printers was my main job during the first year of my career.

@StoneyB I like it! Pidgin-Turing!

StoneyB

Was that pre-Windows and pre-Unicode?

Damkerng T.

It was before Windows.

StoneyB

02:55

Happy night! Cards win! I can sleep tonight!

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

StoneyB

In those days, getting things to print on one printer was trivial, but I never did master how to talk to whatever-driver-came-along.

Damkerng T.

I remember we had a huge table of escape codes! :-)

Ahh... gotta go. It was a nice chat, as always. Talk to you again soon!

StoneyB

And you guys have like 40-something characters, distinguished by tee-niny little circular squiggles, right? Not real easy.

Sleep tight -- or, no, I guess you're in the working part of the day. Be brilliant!

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Yes, some characters have to be displayed above others, some have to be displayed below!

StoneyB

03:01

Good night! I shall go dream of pennants.

Damkerng T.

We used 8-bit code back then. The character set is now included in Unicode range 0E00–0E7F.

Good night!

Jim Reynolds

05:05

@DamkerngT. Wake up!!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds ?

Jim Reynolds

Nothing. I was just lonely.

O.O

Damkerng T.

o_O

"..."

What happened? You were left alone?

Oh, you mean in the room.

Jim Reynolds

Well, actually, there are 14 legs in my apartment.

Not counting any insects.

Damkerng T.

Eww...

Jim Reynolds

05:10

You are grossed out?

Or do you mean Awww . . . ?

Damkerng T.

I guess there are several thousand legs in my room.

(I've got a bee hive above my room.)

Jim Reynolds

Honey bees? How cute!

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

In a minute, see if you get a present dropped on you from the universe.

Damkerng T.

Yeah, until they fly right at you, and sometimes sting you!

Jim Reynolds

05:12

You are programmed to be stung? Bee stung.

Damkerng T.

I guess I'm getting better at it: getting stung.

How did you find my puzzle? Super easy, or just easy?

Jim Reynolds

Which puzzle? I am not caught up at all. :"(

Oh. Lemme look.

An audio puzzle. Intriguing!

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

Uh. Is the .wav file silent?

I am a little puzzled.

Damkerng T.

? It's not silent!

Jim Reynolds

05:22

Hmm..

Damkerng T.

Oh, you sent me an email?

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

Wa HAHAHA I just turned my volume down to get a phone call (And I did this after starting to talk with you just now!!) O.O

Puzzle solved!!

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

Hahah.

Hmm.. On first play, I think I hear xx serial killer(s?) xxx isn't (ain't?) that gross?

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Jim Reynolds

05:26

serial killers tend to xxx within their own ethnic groups.

Second play

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Jim Reynolds

hunt

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Jim Reynolds

third time the charm.

And a southern (US) accent.

I can speak like that. :D

Damkerng T.

lol

I can't speak like that!

:D

Jim Reynolds

05:28

It's quite fun to imitate, if you've heard it enough.

I spend half a summer in Dallas, Texas once. I came back to California with a semi-southern accent!

Damkerng T.

Oh, within just half a summer!

Jim Reynolds

Remember, people don't always take well to humor (or even recognize it as humor) if they feel they're on opposing sides of something

Damkerng T.

Oh, +2 now.

Jim Reynolds

It's so true. It's a strange phenomenon. I think if we get the slightest indication that we -click- with a stranger, or like them, or have something in common with them, we may assume that we share the same views on all matters.

Oh, I like snailboat, and she's so smart and funny. Obviously, she, therefore, has the same religious and philosophical views as me. O.O

Damkerng T.

o_O

Jim Reynolds

05:32

In reality, snailboat may not be that advanced. O.0

Damkerng T.

What kind of reverse psychology is that?!?

Jim Reynolds

Hm... I think it's a sort of cognitive error.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

Social psychologists would be familiar with it.

I'm sure I've heard something about it academically, but at the moment, I just relate to it from personal experiences, having noticed it in myself and in others.

And when I notice it in others, it's "not smart". When I notice it in myself, it's simply human. :D

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

Jim Reynolds

05:35

There's a well-established psychological bias (at least in US Americans) called the self-enhancement bias.

Damkerng T.

"We're only human," said Robocop. o_O

Jim Reynolds

Surveys regularly show that something like 80+% of people think they are better than average!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds curious!

Jim Reynolds

More intelligent than average, better looking than average, taller than average, etc.

LOL.

Damkerng T.

The best paradox I've ever heard!

Jim Reynolds

05:36

Some psychologists debate what's "better":

Some say that this kind of error helps us to be more confident, deal with difficult information about ourselves, and maybe be more willing to try things and persevere.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that does sound like Positive Thinking (TM).

Jim Reynolds

Others think that the more realistically we see ourselves, the better we can navigate through life.

:-)

Damkerng T.

I made up the TM, BTW

Jim Reynolds

Your trademark application is being processed.

Damkerng T.

Hee

Jim Reynolds

05:39

I'm paranoid about malware.

Wraps condom around PC.

Damkerng T.

Quite reasonable.

o_O

That's unreasonable!

Jim Reynolds

Hahaha.

You already called it reasonable. Too late!

MAR was desperately pinging me, I see.

Cute!

Damkerng T.

You even starred it!

@JimReynolds Like fish gasping for water!

Jim Reynolds

Yes. I enjoy being pronounced reasonable.

Hahaha

There also seems to be a strong inclination for us to assume that a certain song, for example, should impact others the same as it does us.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds That's also reasonable.

Though I know that the same song doesn't always have the same effect for me every time I hear it.

Jim Reynolds

05:46

In reality, what brings me back to say, wonderful memories of my early 20s or late teens is unlikely to do that for people who don't share my age and cultural background.

True.

I just had to stare at your "effect" for about 8 seconds, asking myself if it was right, or should have been "affect."

Damkerng T.

I think either works okay. Maybe in this kind of context, affect will be likelier than usual.

Jim Reynolds

No. Affect wouldn't work, exactly.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I remember that psychologists seem to like it.

Jim Reynolds

Well, you could say does not evoke the same affect in me each time.

But "have the same effect" is a common expression.

Damkerng T.

nods

Oh, they aren't quite exactly the same thing. (after looking it up)

Jim Reynolds

05:51

I think we would normally avoid "have the same affect" unless we were either playing with the language or maybe in an especially clear context.

Yes. Source of common errors.

Hi @MrTheWalrus

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Freddy

06:16

hola

Damkerng T.

Hi @Freddy! And bye!

(Gotta go)

Freddy

@DamkerngT. Bye see you later

Damkerng T.

Later!

Choko

@snailboat え

|ω・｀)ﾁﾗｯ

(I don't know how to say チラッ in English)

Freddy

@Choko Does チラッ means "glance"??

Choko

06:23

Hehe, yeah I think it's something like that

|ω・｀)sneakingly peeping into the chat room

Freddy

Google translator says that but it is not always correct

Choko

I think it has a few different meanings

the pole stands for a wall

or a door

this one →　|

May I ask a probably basic question

Is this double negative? →　None of them are neither XXX nor YYY.

Should it be more like "None of them are either XXX or YYY"?

Freddy

With neither we always use nor

Choko

Okay

Freddy

Ahh for example "I like neither hot dogs or burger" does not make sense

Choko

06:32

Yeah, and here there's a "None"

What should I do with that

You wouldn't say "Any of them are neither XX nor YY", would you

@Freddy ahh your profile photo is scary!

Freddy

none we can't use with neither. (I can't think any sentence containing both none and neither)

Yes it is scary, but trust me I am not scary :D

Freddy Krueger

Fred "Freddy" Krueger is the main antagonist of the A Nightmare on Elm Street film series. He first appeared in Wes Craven's A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984) as a burnt serial killer who uses a glove armed with razors to kill his victims in their dreams, causing their deaths in the real world as well. In the dream world, he is a powerful force and almost completely invulnerable to damage. However, whenever Freddy is pulled into the real world, he has normal human vulnerabilities. Krueger was created by Wes Craven, and had been consistently portrayed by Robert Englund since his first appearance...

Choko

Ahh that Freddy

(I've never seen the film, though)

Freddy

Me neither

First time When I came into chat room everyone where asking me about Freddy Kruger, so i changed my profile pic

@MARamezani Hola

MARamezani

Hullo!

@Freddy Don't remember the film.

Freddy

I do, But I have not seen it like other actor who watch there own film. :)

Choko

06:43

@MARamezani Are you saying you don't remember it, or telling Freddy not to remember it?

MARamezani

@Choko I don't remember it.

Choko

Okay

MARamezani

It's called ellipsis.

I omitted the obvious subject: I.

Choko

It's still hard for me

MARamezani

@Choko This kinda ellipsis is very informal.

Choko

06:45

I still don't know where it can be left out

MARamezani

Don't worry.

Choko

Now you're telling me to not worry. hehe

Freddy

@MARamezani you always confuse me

MARamezani

@Choko In a written document, Don't remember it hardly is conceived as ellipsis.

@Freddy Mission accomplished.

Choko

Heh

@MARamezani haha

Freddy

06:46

I meant your name and display pic

MARamezani

I mean, if you're writing an email to your professor don't remember it is perceived as an imperative sentence.

@Freddy Why?

Choko

So your display name happened to be the same as the character, or did you take it from the film?

Freddy

Does MARanezani means cyclohexane? Yours name and display pic does not suit each other

MARamezani

@Freddy MAR is my name.

Real name.

MA is the abbreviation of my first name

Freddy

@Choko my display name happened to be the same as the character. My full name is Freddy Thobhani

MARamezani

06:49

and Ramezani is my last name.

But that's just a disguise. I am a cyclohexane!!!

Freddy

Benzene > cyclohexane

:)

MARamezani

I ate benzene alright. Don't tell the police.

Freddy

Chemically you cant

you can ask to @Choko

MARamezani

But in real world...

Freddy

@MARamezani You mean chemistry which we are learning is not real!!!!!!

MARamezani

06:54

Of course it isn't. Ask the water molecules present in the room.

Freddy

Water molecules in English chat room?? Is he mad like cyclohexane :D

MARamezani

He's crazier!

Freddy

@MARamezani You should try to dissolve in water

MARamezani

@Freddy This water refused me. :'(

Freddy

I know because he is polar and you are non polar

MARamezani

07:00

Screw polars!

Freddy

Screw non polar too. So there is one less topic to study

MARamezani

Yay!

Jim Reynolds

@Choko We'd probably say: None of them are X or Y.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Hullo!

Choko

@JimReynolds Ohhh I see!

Jim Reynolds

07:06

Hi!

Long time, no see.

Choko

Thank you!

Jim Reynolds

Do you want to know for writing or speech, and in what kind of situation (how formal)?

We can say "Viruses are neither plants nor animals."

MARamezani

@JimReynolds You aren

Around!

Jim Reynolds

It's a bit formal. For writing, it would be fine.

Yes. I've been working more. :'(

MARamezani

And crying more, respectively.

Jim Reynolds

07:08

Exactly.

Choko

@JimReynolds I just happened to see the sentence in JLSE

I'm not going to correct/edit their post,

I was just curious

I thought maybe it would be okay in casual, colloquial speech to say "None of them are neither XX nor YY"

I wasn't sure

(But you just said 'neither ~ nor' is formal)

Jim Reynolds

As Freddy said, we won't use none along with neither.

Choko

I see

Jim Reynolds

Not in standard language.

We might colloquially use it.

Choko

So "None of them are ~ or ~"

Jim Reynolds

07:15

Or is ok with None.

MARamezani

None of the neither of his messages make no sense nor have some value...

Choko

Yeah this makes more sense to me

Jim Reynolds

Some people won't like it, or would argue.

But it's common in speech, and acceptable to at least some "experts" in writing.

I think there is something in many dictionaries about it. Let me take a quick look.

ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?id=N5060200

As a conjunction neither is properly followed by nor, not or, in formal style: Neither prayers nor curses (not or curses) did any good.

Choko

Ohhh

Actually I often used 'neither ~ or ~'

Jim Reynolds

It's common in ordinary use. At least in AmE.

MARamezani

07:22

@Choko Your funeral.

Choko

hehe

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Choko

@JimReynolds Thank you for your help, sir

I'm stepping out now,

Jim Reynolds

See you!

Choko

Ciao everyone

Jim Reynolds

07:23

Either I am right, or MARamezani is wrong.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Perfect conclusion.

Choko

lol they practically mean the same

Jim Reynolds

:-)

MARamezani

09:40

I wonder where @Dam is today.

Damkerng T.

13:14

@MARamezani Behind you, lurking... :P

Damkerng T.

13:32

The underlying assumption of this appears to be that ELL is for the easy questions and ELU is for the hard questions. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Both sites frown on very easy questions, especially ones that would be easily answered by a dictionary or thesaurus. The difference is that ELL is for questions that wouldn't occur to a native speaker, not because they're easy, but because it's something that a native speaker Just Knows(TM). — Martha Jan 25 '13 at 19:34

Now, the problem is how to help learners to "just know" as well.

2

A: If vs. Whether?

They are not always interchangeable. If you are confused what to use where, here is a tip: We generally prefer 'whether' after prepositions. Said that, don't use 'if' in such cases. I asked my friend about if whether she had an affair. I am only interested in if whether you are working...

Hmm...

> We generally prefer 'whether' after prepositions.

Sort of true. Macmillan asserts it much stronger: "Use whether, but not if, after a preposition: There are doubts about whether the system is safe."

Which leads me to the example jumped out of the answer to me:

> I asked my friend about if whether she had an affair.

I think I will delete that about as well.

This is another example from Macmillan, which I think whether after a preposition sounds right:

> There was a debate over whether or not to send troops.

Hmm...

> While using 'if' or 'whether' take care if you are including 'or not' as another option.

An uncommon use of if (in take care if) in an answer to question If vs. Whether.

Damkerng T.

13:54

1

Q: The concise way to say "I don't know Python"

I want to say that I don't know Python (a programming language), whose precise meaning is that I have zero knowledge on Python. If I want to say it in a concise way, i.e., using it as a construction part in a longer sentence, can I say, I am Python-agnostic or I am Python-blind or something like ...

word-request phrase-request expressions

Reminds me of "total noob" and "absolute noob".

But "noob" usually implies "knowing a bit" or at least "wanna learn" or "wannabe".

Anonymous

Yeah, the concise way would be "I don't know Python"

Damkerng T.

Indeed! The OP already answered their own question.

Morning!

Anonymous

Morning!

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