ELL's Cabin

2:57 AM

T

6:16 AM

The overweight/healthcare system sentence is ungrammatucal.

I think that website owner is an ESL person and she made it up, or--more likely--copied it incorrectly from another source.

It's not necessarily from an actual IELTS item.

8:59 AM

@JimReynolds I'd be surprised if a real IELTS test has that sentence (though I think it may be possible, too!).

My favorite robot!

See my expanded answer to the question.

The person either tried to write her own question using her not-good-enough-to-be-a-bitch-to-other-learners English, OR copied it incorrectly from somewhere, OR copied some bad writing.

By the person, I mean IELTS Liz, or whatever her name is.

I try my best to avoid saying anything bad about her, at least not objectively. I'd suggest we all doing the same.

I was surprised to learn that the sentence was ungrammatical.

Until last night, and then TRomano's explanation clicked. ;-)

("their efforts" is better than "an effort")

Everything except "it doesn't make sense as written" is speculation.

It is even "grammatical", but doesn't make sense.

nods

We can guess at the idea in a very basic way.

But who knows what the source was and how it was either poorly-written or mangled.

9:10 AM

Ah, you posted an answer in there, too!

My best answer.

Hehe!

"To what extend"!

I would rephase my comment above. It's too mean.

Hmm.

I mean above in this room.

9:11 AM

I would argue that it does make sense, is grammatical.

Hi @jims

What does it mean to you, jim?

Okay, so

> The growing number of overweight people is putting strain on the health care system in an effort to deal with health issues involved.

> The growing number of overweight people is putting strain on [the health care system (which is (currently)) in an effort to deal with health issues involved (with ((the growing) number of) overweight people).

It's a bit extreme, and it's a little... odd. But it works, and the meaning is never really in doubt, to a native speaker, yes?

TRomano and I had a similar exchange in comments under his(?) answer.

Maybe you've already seen it, but here goes:

I was surprised to read that you agreed with Brian Hitchcock's analysis. I read "the health care system in an effort to deal with health issues involved" in that sentence as a single noun phrase, so I believe that stylistic issues aside, the sentence should be fine. By the way, I found its source here: ieltsliz.com/ielts-agree-disagree-essay-sample-answer. — Damkerng T. 21 hours ago

Yeah.

We can only guess.

If we assume that it is the health care system that is "in an effort", it's grammatical, but does not make sense.

9:19 AM

@JimReynolds Well, that's not true - in all of our exchanges with other people, we necessarily need to assume that they want to make sense, right? So we wouldn't parse the prepositional phrase as modifying The growing number of overweight people

Growing obesity is straining a system that's in an effort to deal with growing obesity.

@JimReynolds If I can offer a similar sentence: The loud noises disturbed the student in an effort to write his essay

They may want to make sense, but may not know how.

Hmm.

That sounds weirder, doesn't it?

Interesting.

I'm saying that we can't know the history behind the appearance of this sentence in the context of that website.

We can guess.

Some guesses make more sense than others.

But even the best guess results in strained English.

9:22 AM

@jimsug It's a bit like a garden path sentence to me!

The best guess, and I sort of mean "kindest" guess . . .

@DamkerngT. But those are fun, and make me feel good. These make me feel weird.

Results in what I wrote above: Growing obesity is straining a system that's in an effort to deal with growing obesity.

Yes. If we grant the benefit of the doubt, we end up with a strange idea.

One that is not really logical.

Yeah. That's right. I guess the context - non-native speakers showcasing their command of the language - isn't the best for violating the usual rules.

Well, I'm all for people who use English as a second or other language helping others.

9:24 AM

@JimReynolds I think it makes sense to me? The system wouldn't be strained if it weren't dealing with the issues, right?

And in making errors while doing so. It's human.

So I don't know, maybe agree to disagree.

You certainly wouldn't put strain on something that isn't dealing with you.

Well, then cultural ideas of what's logical also come into play!

And I think, as a "Westerner", who has a lot of experience with, uh, academic and formal writing, I can say that an idea like "Increasing X is straining a system dealing with increasing X" is not worth writing.

Circular logic.

It does not "smell" at all like an excerpt from an article that could make it onto an IELTS exam.

I'm glad you are sharing your perspective, jimsug !

And I'm listening.

Sure, but there's a difference between "makes sense", "logical", and "worth writing"

It's only my view. It's not over until it's been @snailboated

9:28 AM

And I'd argue that the latter is far more variable than the former.

Hmm... I'm listening. :D

@JimReynolds Hehe!

Would you like to tell us anything about your background?

I remember jimsug is from Australia, and seems to be working on linguistic stuff. (But I usually don't trust my memory much. :-)

Semantics, functional grammar, formal syntax, a bit of logic...

9:30 AM

Wow.

Are you a student or academic?

And I'm not studying linguistics anymore, moved onto other things.

Ahh

Honours' thesis last year.

Yay!

What does honours thesis signify in Australia?

It's a paper written in fulfillment of a four-year degree, and you won some recognition for its quality?

9:32 AM

Yeah, that's right.

Awesome. Congrats!

So the usual Bachelor degree is three years, honours is an optional additional year and requires a paper of some kind.

Oh!

So different from the US.

That is more like my master's degree.

Or is it masters degree? O.O

HMm

aqf.edu.au/aqf/in-detail/aqf-levels

I'll just share a thought that went through my mind. I don't know what it was doing there, and I refuse to be held responsible for it:

9:34 AM

It's just below a Masters, on our qualifications framework.

Yeah. What are you up to now? Or do you prefer to keep the somewhat mysterious "other things?" :-)

It's a good image. A bit of mystery.

The growing number of overweight people is putting strain on the health care system. In an effort to deal with health issues involved, some people have suggested . . . .

That is what went through my mind. I'd expect to see something like that in an IELTS essay.

Ahh

And it's just possible that someone mis-typed it from something, or decided to re-write it.

But I'm speculating.

@JimReynolds quite possible, I'm not familiar enough with IELTS questions. That parses a lot more naturally for me.

Makes sense.

9:37 AM

@JimReynolds I'm in law school part-time now, doing a JD

Wow!

looking up JD...

That was always one of my "I wonder if I had done that . . . " things.

Wow!

(If I'm now allowed to write sentences that don't really make sense. O.O )

So, if we are in Australia someday, and get charged with conspiricy to commit mayhem on the English language", can Damkerng T. and I ask for your help?

9:39 AM

Haha, I don't think that's a crime.

LOL

Oh. You haven't seen enough of our writing, I think.

Although I think I read something recently where emoticons were used to defend someone in a criminal case.

O.O

Like, where :) was said to imply that they weren't serious about something they had said.

9:40 AM

That's fascinating!

So, expert witnesses. Psychologists. Linguists.

And a pre-teen?

o_O

I'll see if I can find the news story about it. I can't recall whether some expert was consulted...

It's not a new thing (just found a few stories from a few years ago)

but this was the one I was reading about, I think:

nytimes.com/2015/01/29/nyregion/…

Ah, emoji and emoticon are the same thing now?!?

I don't agree with that.

How is your life going to law school part-time?

Do you also work? It sounds like it might be pretty tough.

Dam, Can you delete my message containing the word "bitch" above?

9:51 AM

Yeah, not a lot of time for other things.

I didn't like that woman's reply to the OP, but I can't judge her. :-)

I think I can only flag it.

I guess that's one of the reason that I closevote readily, where it's merited.

Yeah. I would think stacks and stacks of reading!

Ha. Elaborate!

Because you don't have enough time, so you want to close vote things that would otherwise take some of your scarce attention?

Haha. It's kind of funny. Well, we are funny. Us humans.

Or it is also your lawyerly sense of enjoying applying judgments against policies?

Well, more like - it's a bit selfish to waste peoples' time, surely?

9:53 AM

@Dam OMO, jim's going to close-vote my chatting in here. O.O

:P

:D

Ha. Yes.

poorly-researched questions, or, occasionally, answers are a bit rude, in my opinion.

Ah. I try to see it all as wonderfully emblematic of human diversity.

O.O

9:55 AM

I tend to read these questions as "I want others to put effort into helping me with this question that I haven't put effort into"

Some questions are really like that.

Strangers, no less. Also, it's not generally the case that these people will be able to return the favour, so it's now strangers who can only really keep giving

Yes. But I also try to guess at various reasons that someone might ask a "basic research" question that I can forgive if I understand different people's perspetives.

My goodness! It sounds like a, a sort of comment on the breakdown of many traditional societies today!

Yeah. If it's a definition I can't plug into Google or Onelook and get fairly quickly, for instance, then I won't vote.

nods -- Sometimes we can only guess, and it's not easy to guess based on our judgement.

9:58 AM

That's why it takes five to vote, right?

I try to remember that I might very well come onto a site like this and ask a question without first reading through policies!

Indeed. We also have "reopen", just in case.

It's for the joy we get from arguing!

The joy in finding others in violation of our expectations sometimes?

Haha. I think that's very human.

Most of us don't. I remember I hadn't visited the Help pages before my first post!

If others have more time to devote, and they disagree with closure, then they don't have to vote with me.

10:00 AM

Yes. I think all of us exercising our judgments is essentially a good thing.

But the actual ramifications of a question being closed or not?

Haha.

Will it change our lives? Others' lives? To what degree? Compared to what other areas to which we might apply our energies?

Well, let's say that you've volunteering, and helping clean up a beach

And people keep littering.

Surely if you had the opportunity, you would ask them to stop littering, right?

And you wouldn't leave litter on the ground because "you could be doing something else"

So if I choose to spend my time on ELL.SE, because I think it's worthwhile...

:-)

I think it is.

then I wouldn't leave a bad question for someone else to deal with because I could do something else instead.

Neither would I pass up an opportunity to let someone know how to better spend their time, instead of "littering" on the stack.

Yes. I agree. Most of us feel good trying to contribute something.

ell.stackexchange.com/review/close/21129

I replaced the link that apparently doesn't work with another one that I checked first.

David says that it contains "shady" ads.

Soundcloud would host it indefinitely, surely?

10:09 AM

I suppose I don't see them because I have Java disabled.

Same

I guess that is the one that the last person is talking about.

Someone has also been using one called clyp.

@jimsug I'm not so sure, but I think it's safe to assume that Soundcloud will exist for a long time.

Ah, right.yeah.

I wonder if SE has a policy about what kinds of sites are considered bad to link to.

10:10 AM

I mean, I've never assumed that things like Facebook, Twitter, Linked In, and even Google, will exist forever.

I mean, how about google. com O.O

Google Drive, you mean?

I meant: Can we say that google.com is not "shady"?

o.O

:D

They know how often @Dam picks his nose!

10:11 AM

They probably know!

Haha. I might purchase that info.

Does SE have any policy or guidelines on what kinds of links should or shouldn't be posted?

Hehe! I wonder how much it'll cost you. :-)

O.O

I'm sure they have discussed stuff like that on metas.

I might use it in my legal defense some day.

I DIDN'T DO IT!! IT WAS THE NOSE-PICKER!!!

10:14 AM

SE is US based, so I think it's rather safe to claim "fair use". On the other hand, promoting someone's own website could be frowned upon, but I think it's possible when it's reasonable.

@JimReynolds looking right, then left, then continues his own things...

hAHA

Oh, he gave a specific reason: WARNING This link goes to a site that uses pop-under scam advertising that tries to convince you that your web browser and/or Flash plug-in need to be updated.

That does sound shady.

I guess it could, though I believe that most people know they don't have to click those links or install Flash to get the clip.

Iirc, Soundcloud needs Flash, too.

Yeah

Hmm... actually, this room could be useful for the OP.

He wanted to master American connected speech.

I'd go for something faster

10:22 AM

(Though I think all English dialects are connected speech. Not sure about non-native dialects, though.)

listening...

Most speech is connected.

I think he might mean slurred

or rushed.

But anyway.

Either skype

or something that lets you send voice clips, would be better imo

Skype could be a great option.

Yeah! Invite him to come here, @Dam.

What's the common belief in the linguistic circle about the age that people can't change their own accent (based on their L1) by just interacting with native speakers?

I don't mind recording and uploading sound files of my beautiful voice.

10:26 AM

Ah, that would be great!

Good question for snailboat.

Some will automatically say 12.

Maybe it'd be even better if you sent the invitation instead of me.

But what's evidence-based, I dunno.

I did a bit of language acquisition...

I think it's about puberty?

I think a lot of understanding about how we process spoken language is quite new.

10:27 AM

I mean, so he can be more confident that he will get native-speakers' help.

Ok.

Post link to here?

@jimsug My intuition says it's around 12-13.

@JimReynolds Yes, the room's URL.

I suspect there might be more variety than previously thought.

12, puberty, and 12-13 are quite similar!

It might depend a lot on techniques for "accent reduction".

10:29 AM

nods

And something about individual variation in natural abilities.

Have you checked out my reading example? (I know it's not my best reading, and it's not the most pleasant thing to hear in the world. :-)

Well, that's a common age, I think. And yes, individual can, and do, vary a lot.

Mathematicians, spatial reasoning geniuses, and musicians could have a big advantage.

nods

10:30 AM

No Where izzit, Dam?

Somewhere here yesterday.

looking...

ok.

24 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

My example reading: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6dj6isecgw0ajar/20150418%20Ch.%206.6%20Everyone%20is%2‌0Important.wav?dl=0

So, do we suppose soundcloud is unlikely to deliver malware/scam people?

Yeah.

10:31 AM

I could suggest that and dropbox.

BTW, you can say no to any ad or the invitation to join Dropbox.

Right. And I don't know if there will be some objection to the whole concept of people submitting pronunciation clips for evaluation or comment.

I think Soundcloud and Dropbox are safer than the other sites the OP used.

I'm inclined to be open-minded about it.

Hmm

I think it was discussed some time last year.

One of the concerns was the persistence of the clips.

10:33 AM

nods

3

Q: Temporarily attached files

In the question Would anyone please tell me what the attached file say?, there's a link to an externally-hosted file: I heard a google message when I used google voice, but I could not get the keyword. Would anyone please help me? Download the voice file from tempsend.com This file was ap...

discussion

Another relevant thing:

20

Q: Embed an audio player

Questions about the pronunciation of a word as heard are probably common for a site for people learning a language. I can imagine questions similar to the following ones: I listened to this [link to an audio file, or a video] but I don't understand what word is being said at the beginning, and ...

feature-request

BTW, I'm listening to my own reading, and I can hear that it's much slower than my usual. Maybe it's because I was reading unfamiliar stuff.

@jimsug I remember I've seen snailboat in a similar meta post.

Hmmm

I guess it comes up every once in a while--a request for audio embedding.

Yes. I saw this same sort of thing happen on a game wiki site that I used to be active on. The one I mentioned to you before, Dam.

10:40 AM

On the whole I don't think it's common enough to warrant it?

nods

The issue of sharing video came up and people were disinclined to accept it, in general.

I think it's likely to be a mistake. Like, "Let's not get into this Internet fad, our print newspaper is doing very well and always will!!"

O.O

o_O

I think in Stack Exchange case, it's more about technicalities. I mean, it's a technical problem.

I dunno. Maybe because it's a way I can feel useful as a native speaker. And because I think listening and getting feedback is necessary for pronunciation improvement, I'm in support of it.

Yeah. I see.

I'm checking to see if I already have a dropbox account!

Yay!

10:47 AM

Any referral deals or etc, that you know of, Dam?

Any user can get slightly more capacity by referring

Ah, I haven't looked into that!

Race!

I once ran a $30 adwords campaign and maxed out my additional capacity, though :P

Best $30 I ever spent.

I remember there is something like that, but 2 GB is more than enough for me.

Hehe!

10:48 AM

Although I will ask that your first-born son wake me up every morning by foot massage from 2020-2030.

:D

A $30 adwords campaign to . . . ?

You referred people to dropbox that way and got lots of free space?

Yup.

Feel free to invite me if you'd like.

I can't see the referral campaign on my Dropbox page now!

I guess it was when Dropbox still wasn't as widely known as now.

10:54 AM

OK.

Or jimsug took up all their space!

The data center under one mountain range is named after him, perhaps.

:D

I think they may have discontinued that? idk

Try that @dam

That?

dropbox.com/referrals

Whoops.

O.O

I just did it, using a referral link that a friend sent me.

In 2011 !!

Not always an early adopter.

Tapping out a message on my telegraph.

11:05 AM

@JimReynolds Ah, I was too late. But that's okay.

Ha. It's nice to hear your voice, robot!

lol

Someone was using "clyp" recently.

It seemed fast.

nods -- Last month, I think.

I should've compressed my clip to MP3. It's a WAV file, so it's much larger.

I used to practice my reading on news. Now I pick random stuff. :-)

I'll be off for half an hour or so. BBL

Oh. I'm seeing your conversation around 24h ago.

I think Marco sounds Italian.

I'd guess he was raised there, or listening to Italian voices wherever he was raised. :-)

See you!

@Dam. Do you have the text (visual) of what you're reading? Send me a bit of it. If you have it printed on paper, scan a page or two, or take a photo?

It would be cool to explore a few ways of sending you feedback and/or myself reading the same thing.

11:46 AM

@JimReynolds I have an account on Safari Books. I chose a book, select a page, and read it straight from the screen (recently they started to convert almost every book, particularly new ones, into HTML format, so it's a bit easier to read on screen).

Would you like to have the text? (I think only a small section could still be a fair use. Or so I hope!)

> 6.6. Everyone is Important
So, if we are to treat everyone the same, what are we qualifying them for? Once we find out what they can give us, then that is what we ask them for. Meeting anyone in life is never a waste of time. Qualifying allows you to understand what they know and how they can take you forward on your journey. Elsewhere in this book, we contemplate a journey to Alaska and in a rural village we meet a local resident. Through careful questioning it may be revealed that our rustic friend from Nether Wapping has no knowledge of North America at all, but he does know the way to…

I can try another version (a casual reading). Let's see...

I suppose you would not need to think too much. Reading should probably sound like reading, to some extent. And reading writing will sound different than speaking spontaneously.

The interesting thing would mainly be to see which features of pronunciation we can notice together.

And snailboat's antennae scanning our discussion would be most enlightening, I'm sure.

I walk dogs.

You dogs are happy now!

I'm doing a casual reading. Will upload it in a few minutes.

Yes, word stress on PEE.

LOL

dropbox.com/s/8cni18r8ygsbrdh/…

It's the same mic (which is attached to the display), same settings (the reader just came back from outside, so you can hear that he needs more oxygen than usual :P), but I didn't try to make everything sound as clear as the previous one.

12:12 PM

I just realized that the text itself might look a bit odd out of its own context. So I'd better talk a bit about what the book talks about in previous sections and chapters. The book is about persuasion. I think it's a book for business owners, especially for those who have their own salespeople. One thing these sales people should know is to identify the key person when they approach their prospects. This section objects to a common belief that only the key person is useful; hence, the title.

12:35 PM

@Jim Reynolds: I do understand that speech is a continuous succession of sounds and silences. Marco, IMO, is not paying close enough attention to the syntactic pauses, to phrase-intonations, and to vowel quality, and too much attention (at this point) to how adjacent phones can blend together. No disrespect to Marco intended, but his choice of exemplars for American-accent emulation, coupled with complex sentences like the one he is speaking here, with its parenthetic clause, is like The Fonz occupying the anchor desk at ABC news. I am trying to give him a wider range of accent exemplars. — TRomano 2 hours ago

I'm sure TRomano will have quite a hard time learning Chinese or Thai. :P

"speech is a continuous succession of sounds and silences" -- true, and yet not true true

Oh, good evening @MARamezani!

Well, continuos stream?

Probably. But let's try this, is /t/ a sound or a silence?

I mean, that definition is of course correct, when we look at it that way. My problem is, how much will it help an L2 learner?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Hullo!

I'm leaving in five minutes though.

@JimReynolds Hullo!

I know about the concept of "connected speech" of English, but if someone (let's say a Thai) asked me if he or she should care about connected speech, I'd probably answer, forget it.

@MARamezani Oh, no!

Anyway, Hullo!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Me too.

12:46 PM

For one thing, imo, "letter" isn't really pronounced and shouldn't be thought of as being pronounced as "ledder".

I remember I've heard a learner (a host on my local TV, actually) say, "an--um--napple". I guess that was an effect of the way she had been taught connected speech.

MARamezani

Okay. Leaving. Bye!

Later!

@MAR! Bub-bye yah!

I think the basic point is that speech is very different than reading, in terms of units of processing.

And, as we know, the ways our brains operate on written text is much more complex than processing word / word / word.

Agree about internal processing, but from the speech production point of view, speech and reading aloud are pretty much the same, I think.

nods