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Charlie Brumbaugh
Charlie Brumbaugh
01:33
@imsodin Thanks, I am not so much gone for a long time, but I might have to take some breaks as the comments were getting to the point where it was distracting me at work.
@RoryAlsop @imsodin @Liam @ab2 I hate to have ask this because it wasn't designed this way, but are we going to have to lock down the list of on-topic things? Today a user went in and declared probably over 20 questions off-topic without consulting anyone, just went in and did it.
 
2 hours later…
Charlie Brumbaugh
Charlie Brumbaugh
03:32
@imsodin I don't dislike the downvote something like 9% are mine data.stackexchange.com/outdoors/query/798725 or the close votes so much as I really, really dislike the attitude that users sometimes have when doing it. I have flagged an awful lot of VTC comments as not constructive and I really dislike it when people close things instead of making the small edits necessary to keep them on-topic.
 
1 hour later…
ab2
ab2
04:49
@Charlie Brumbaugh Declaring > 20 Qs as off topic is much the same as serial downvoting, and whoever did it should be disciplined.
 
2 hours later…
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
07:04
@CharlieBrumbaugh can you pop up a couple of links so I can see which ones/which user
 
2 hours later…
Liam
Liam
09:31
@CharlieBrumbaugh In what way?
Yes what @RoryAlsop said.
Liam
Liam
09:56
I kinda feel we need to all just move on from the "what is the outdoors" question
0
A: Should we revisit or enforce that pistols are off topic?

LiamWhat is "the outdoors"? I don't think anyone can give a definite answer to this that everyone would agree on. So we need to accept that what you think is an outdoor pursuit, others may not. But more than this we need to accept that this is fine. Having the same arguments about one persons defini...

Ultimately we're all fighting a straw man
 
1 hour later…
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
11:27
I like that answer Liam. It covers useful ground, but most importantly asks the question, "why shouldn't it be on topic" ... that question on the difference between single and double action revolvers. It doesn't strike me as very relevant or on topic - but as much gun usage is Outdoors e.g. For hunting, we may well be the best/only site for it. And if it's not a perfect match, well, what's the worst that it will do?
 
3 hours later…
Charlie Brumbaugh
Charlie Brumbaugh
14:31
outdoors.meta.stackexchange.com/posts/1026/revisions @Liam @RoryAlsop
Liam
Liam
15:06
@CharlieBrumbaugh I don't agree with that...
@CharlieBrumbaugh Vry much is the problem with a list that anyone can edit is that what's to stop anyone editing it?!
Charlie Brumbaugh
Charlie Brumbaugh
@Liam See thats why I wonder if it doesn't need a mod to lock it down. Which defeats the point of a communty wiki, which is to let anyone edit.
Liam
Liam
@RoryAlsop People seem to get caught up on the idea that this is on topic and this is off and most of the time it's just their opinion. If SE had never invented these controls then no one would be having this conversation at all. But the system is not designed for this kind of "fuzzy" topic. Outdoors is fuzzy lets all just have a pint and forget about it?!
Or a litre depending on geographical location...Do american's drink pints...?
 
2 hours later…
Charlie Brumbaugh
Charlie Brumbaugh
17:21
@Liam That sounds like a great way to start a fight between the people who want to argue imperial vs metric and the alcohol vs the alcohol is poison vs the Jesus turned water into grape juice etc
 
1 hour later…
StrongBad
StrongBad
18:30
https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/18226/are-there-particular-grades-that-indoor-climbers-often-struggle-with

I really do not see how this is opinion based. Either there are grades that more people struggle with and others they find easy or there are not. The fact that no one has done the study to find out, doesn't make the question opinion based. In fact, I wanted to avoid people just giving their personal opinions and wanted an evidence based answer.
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
18:48
@StrongBad Just had a quick look at it - the wording is the problem "what grades do people typically struggle with" makes it very much opinion based
the higher the number, the more they will struggle
in my club, what is the average grade people manage? Are most folks at a 5b? Or a 6? And is your club different? That's why it's a difficult question
I get stuck at any that are above my current level, and how long I find them difficult depends on how often I go
StrongBad
StrongBad
19:22
@RoryAlsop I guess what I am looking for is if I surveyed everyone at your club as to the hardest grade they regularly climb would there be a local peak at any particular grades. If your club had 120 6c climbers, 100 7a climbers, 150 7b climbers, 60 7c, and 40 8a climbers, I would conclude that 7b is a local plateau.
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
@StrongBad yeah - I don't think it can work like that in any general way. As my local club may only be representative of my local club.
and from experience it varies wildly with the season
StrongBad
StrongBad
@RoryAlsop yes, a multi site study would be better. I could imagine a number of ways that the data could be collected and none of those answers would be opinion based.
@RoryAlsop most gyms I know have a target number of climbs at each grade. I am not sure those numbers change with the seasons, but they might.
Rory Alsop
Rory Alsop
@StrongBad during the summer months our club empties out dramatically as everyone goes up to the mountains to climb "properly" so the climbers remaining are those with full time jobs and learners
In the winter every route is full from start to end of day
StrongBad
StrongBad
@RoryAlsop that only makes getting the data harder. You can limit it to people who have had at least a 3 month membership or something like that. The lack of data does not make the question opinion based, just hard to answer. That said, my guess is there is an undergraduate thesis (or 20) that has done the stats analysis.
 
2 hours later…
imsodin
imsodin
21:09
@StrongBad True, it can have not opinion-based answers, it is just extremely unlikely. This is illustrated by two answers (one for our standards highly upvoted) which are just opinions. A question that can have an objective answer, but it is just really unlikely anyone has the information for it, unfortunately becomes opinion based. In a perfect world the answer would remain open and opinion based answers downvoted...
2
StrongBad
StrongBad
21:45
@imsodin Your comment and the one by @Liam made me think you were missing the point. The comments above by Rory make me think the way I worded the question makes it hard to understand. But it also seems like you get it but think it will attract opinion-based answers.
imsodin
imsodin
@StrongBad "But it also seems like you get it but think it will attract opinion-based answers." That's it (I hope at least, concerning the "you get it" part :D )
StrongBad
StrongBad
@Liam not a proper pint: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint_glass
@imsodin that seems like a silly reason to close a question. It also means I shouldn't try rewording the question.
imsodin
imsodin
@StrongBad I guess that's got a point. I just see that both answers (in good faith) are opinion based and upvoted, and acted on that.
So the question will end up with two or more opinion based answers highly upvoted, thus looking as if they were actual answers, while they're not. My personal opinion is there are no common plateaus (except for maybe at numbers, e.g. 6c-7a and 11d-12a, so not difficulty related), but that's just my opinion, I don't have data to back it up, so I didn't write an answer.
StrongBad
StrongBad
22:07
@imsodin I am not sure which is a worse look for our site. Closing valid questions or providing opinions that do not actually answer the questions. My preference would be for us to leave it open and down vote the answers and then I could offer a bounty to try and encourage someone to scour the web for an answer (or contact some climbing gyms).
imsodin
imsodin
Don't know either. In retrospect a way to solve the dilemma would have been to have an explicit in your face note on the question, saying that only answers based on data, not personal experience are acceptable. That's kind of needed because most questions on TGO are experience based.

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