Wolfram Mathematica

Verde

3:21 AM

@NasserM.Abbasi Nice! There seems to be a little bug with the display of the init parms

Is this a pentagon?

Nasser M. Abbasi

@Verd

Verde

yep

Nasser M. Abbasi

@Verde, thanks for trying it. But this is strange, as I do not see this on my end?

are you using a mac or a window? I am looking at it now on my web page and it looks fine

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi Oh well, it is a minor bug. I think it does not matter much

windows

Nasser M. Abbasi

can you please try reloading the web page to see it will changes?

Verde

3:34 AM

nice demo. btw

@NasserM.Abbasi Already did

Nasser M. Abbasi

thanks. It will still go through lots of review when I submit it to WRI any way. If this is an issue, it will be seen. But I do not get it on my end.

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi I think many software layers are there. Very difficult to test all possible environents

Nasser M. Abbasi

I just changed it to use SynchronousInitialization -> True, and uploaded new CDF, if you like to try this one. Before I had the above set to False. You might need to refresh the page, sometimes the old CDF stays in browser buffer. thanks

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi ok wait a minute

@NasserM.Abbasi I switched browsers because Firefox still shows the same. On IE everything looks ok. Perhaps it is a cache issue on FF. Have you disabled caching for that page?

Nasser M. Abbasi

3:53 AM

@Verde, I am not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by disabled caching for that page ? I upload the CDF to the web server on my ISP. That is all. Unless you mean something else I need to do in the CDF itself?

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi velocityreviews.com/forums/t364342-disable-caching.html

Nasser M. Abbasi

I see. did not know about this. The HTML file I use is generated from Latex directly using Latex2html. But I just added <META HTTP-EQUIV ="Expire" CONTENT ="0"> by hand to the HTML file now and uploaded it. May be this will help. I need to start adding this by hand from now on I guess.

Verde

let me check if any dif

@NasserM.Abbasi Now it works on FF too!

Nasser M. Abbasi

good! I think then it might have been the SynchronousInitialization. I just keep it to True. Sometimes WRI editor like this set to False if the demo is large and takes long time loading. But mine is very small, so no problem.

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi Good, nice demo BTW

Nasser M. Abbasi

4:07 AM

btw, I have your names inside the demo, credit for your using one of your functions I saw at stackoverflow that I borrowed. It was a function for making an arrow head at the end of a curved arrow. I need to do that in the demo and did not know how. so thanks for that function!

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi Nice, thanks for the credit.

@NasserM.Abbasi May I suggest something?

Nasser M. Abbasi

sure!

Verde

4:22 AM

@NasserM.Abbasi all those continuously changing figures at the top are impossible to follow, and do not add much info as they are. I suggest adding little up or down arrow besides the physical magnitudes to show the sign of the derivative ... and perhaps showing the figures only on demand (with a checkbox)

@CHM hi!

Nasser M. Abbasi

thanks Verde for the suggestion, will see what I can do.

Verde

@NasserM.Abbasi :D

CHM

*checks SE profile*
Ah, hi @belisarius

Verde

@CHM hi!

CHM

Is it me, or italics doesn't work?

Verde

4:25 AM

let me see

test

yep

_test_
**test**

works

test

CHM

shift+enter

Verde

4:26 AM

test

he!

CHM

Doesn't work for me when I \n

Verde

@CHM I believe your recent question is not clear enough

CHM

@Verde Sure, will re-re-read.

Verde

@CHM What do you want?

a solution for equal edges?

or being able to modify GraphEdit?

CHM

I could have written more than one question...

I realized that once I published it :/

Verde

4:29 AM

it seems so

Also

You are aware that you can set vertexcoordinates ...

so you can set distances

you only need to precalculate the graph

CHM

@Verde tell me if it's clearer.

@Verde Yes, but GraphEdit already preserves the distances between vertices. If I have predefined CycleGraphs with unit-length edges, I can use them in the applet without having to fiddle with VertexCoordinates.

(I think)

Ideally, I'd have some very primitive ChemDraw functionality inside of Mathematica.

Click on a 6 membered ring, put it on the canvas, join another 6 membered ring, save to a variable.

For example.

Verde

Sorry Chemistry is like Sanskrit for me

CHM

hehe

I'm not talking about chemistry, really.

Only graph drawing.

I use it for chemistry, but it fundamentally has nothing to do with it.

Verde

I mean I doesn't know ChemDraw

CHM

4:46 AM

@Verde I've just added a tiny screenshot.

ChemDraw is... a molecule drawing software. Very widely used.

Verde

@CHM From my perspective you can't draw molecules, the are just wave functions. Hope you understand :)

CHM

@Verde Hehe. You can draw representations of them ;)

Verde

@CHM Fairy tales

CHM

@Verde To some, wave functions are fairy tales too! A molecule is but a vector.

Nothing wavy about it.

Or, just a lot of qubits.

Verde

@CHM Ok. Let's stop this. A molecule is a snark by other name

@CHM BTW ...Why on earth do you want to use Mma as a drawing pad? There are much better apps to do that ...

CHM

4:53 AM

@Verde ChemDraw is just that, a drawing pad. I can draw molecules in it, copy SMILES data, then generate graphs in Mathematica.

Verde

so ...

CHM

If I draw the molecules in Mathematica, I don't need to convert between data representations.

And my molecules are the way I want them.

The algorithms used by MMA to generate an AdjacencyGraph are good, but I don't know how they work.

I need to have good control over vertex numbering, and edge lengths.

For example, if I want to add side-chains to benzene (CycleGraph[6])

Verde

Like this?

CHM

I have no problem, and can orient my side-chains in meta or para position without difficulty.

But when I get to larger molecules, it's a big problem.

Mathematica continually changes the vertex numbering.

And the edge lengths, and the molecule layout.

Hence why I want to have create perfect graphs, ab initio, in MMA.

@Verde Looks good, but there can't be vertices of one subgraph that stand on the middle of the edge of another.

Verde

Just showing flexibility. Wait

@CHM And look now ... surprise

CHM

5:03 AM

Don't tell me you've created this on the fly..?

Verde

CHM

Purty.

@Verde Is it JLink'd?

Verde

yep

just one way

from it to Mma

Not sure if it is useful for you

not graphs, just polygons

CHM

well, it would be if I can get a graph out of it, yes.

Verde

@CHM geometryexpressions.com

Need some sleep. See ya

CHM

5:17 AM

@Verde I second that.

Good night

Thanks.

xzczd

10:31 AM

Well, questions about mathematica are found both in mathematica.stackexchange.com and stackoverflow.com and some (but not all) of the questions are transfered from stackoverflow to mathematica.stackexchange…I wonder what's the relationship between them?

rcollyer

11:01 AM

@xzczd We were originally on stackoverflow, but through some hard work got our own site. Only some of us still look at SO, and we try to migrate the better questions.

xzczd

1:16 PM

@rcollyer Oh~I see.

CHM

4:45 PM

@MrWizard Well well well... seems to me like my question and the one you shared are more than related :/

I think it didn't show up in my search because I didn't specifically query for "Pattern-test" (because I didn't know that's what I was looking for).

Rojo

7:32 PM

@CHM, PatternTest is "?" and Condition is "/;". I didn't interpret your question as a request for a comparison between those 2, right? So it's only related to the one MrWizard linked to

CHM

7:52 PM

@Rojo Your answer is good, thanks.

It's just that both questions are very similar, but not identical

Verde

8:39 PM

I wanna be myself again

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@Verde eat sausage then

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries colored people are being discriminated here. I want to be a Roman hero again. Rich and famous

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@verde I seem to remember Be..., Be..., Ah Yes: Berlusconi

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries Nope, Silvio is the owner of the Coliseum, a mere mortal-in-the-middle between lions and religion fanatics

or were they hooligans?

can't remember

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Vandals?

Verde

8:52 PM

more Visigoths I'd say

whatever. I want my former stupid personality back

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Verde makes you look younger

Verde

But sounds too simplistic. Like Rojo

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Why not use your real name?

Verde

My mother would kill me

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Is it that bad?

Verde

8:55 PM

she is really good at maths

Sjoerd C. de Vries

University grad?

Verde

joking about her killing instincts, but she's truly good at maths

Sjoerd C. de Vries

How old is she?

Verde

86

Sjoerd C. de Vries

I mean, would she notice you playing around here?

Verde

8:59 PM

well, she surfs the internet with damn good skills

Sjoerd C. de Vries

My mum hasn't been on the internet in her whole live.

Verde

good for you

:D

Sjoerd C. de Vries

I just bought her an iPad, trying to entice her getting there

For now, she's playing solitaire and rummycub

Verde

A normal mum. That sounds good. Now tell me she cooks like a godess

Sjoerd C. de Vries

It's a small step for mankind, but a giant leap for her

Verde

9:02 PM

It is, surely

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Well, she killed brussels sprouts for me. It wasn't until I married that I learned to appreciate them, but her pea soup is pretty good.

Verde

Marriage is a useful thing. You learn to appreciate many things

most of them too late

Sjoerd C. de Vries

;-)

Verde

he!

Sjoerd C. de Vries

you fell for the wrong ones

Verde

9:04 PM

It's life

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Always look at the bright side of life

Verde

"The sunny side of the street" ... where most gangs meet to assault and rape

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Only in the 3rd world.

Oh, sorry, I forgot

;p

Verde

How funny. Half Europe are struggling to be here

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Seen the closing ceremony?

@Verde Crisis? What crisis?

Verde

9:09 PM

No, I don't use the TV too much

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Well, it was basically a lot of britpop, so a radio would have worked out fine

Verde

besides, I sort of regret all those money spilling

Sjoerd C. de Vries

So, you wear sackcloth and live in a pit, then?

barefooted

with your laptop

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries This is the third world. So, sort of yes

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Well, do I have a new name for you!

Diogenes of Sinope

Diogenes of Sinope (, Diogenēs ho Sinōpeus) was a Greek philosopher and one of the founders of Cynic philosophy. Also known as Diogenes the Cynic (, Diogenēs ho Kunikos), he was born in Sinope (modern-day Sinop, Turkey), an Ionian colony on the Black Sea, in 412 or 404 BCE and died at Corinth in 323 BCE. Diogenes of Sinope was a controversial figure. His father minted coins for a living and when Diogenes took to "defacement of the currency", he was banished from the city. but it is by no means certain that the two men ever met. Diogenes made a virtue of poverty. He begged for a living an...

Verde

9:14 PM

And my Laptop is cheaper than my sackcloth

@SjoerdC.deVries Diogenes

chistesclarin.com.ar/diogenes

Sjoerd C. de Vries

He shares your kind of humor

Verde

Diogenes is the dog

Sjoerd C. de Vries

My Spanish is a bit rusty

Verde

He is a cynic, while me ... I prefer asparagus

@SjoerdC.deVries That Spanish is full of regionalisms. Not easy

and cultural self references

not for export

Sjoerd C. de Vries

My knowledge of Spanish is restricted to "este es un casa" and the like

It makes for an interesting conversation

Camarero, dos cervezas por favor.

Verde

9:22 PM

my English isn't any better. Just needs some courage

Sjoerd C. de Vries

Liquid courage

Verde

:)

There was a funny anecdote about that. Let me search

Verde

9:49 PM

Can't find it grrrr

Verbeia

10:08 PM

Hi all, at least one person active on the site will be interested in this request for tender, but maybe some others will too.

At the very least it will explain why I've been asking some of the questions I've been asking.

Verde

@Verbeia Are they asking for a finished product or a new development?

Verbeia

@Verde new development - basically a set of packages that will build a GUI and draw the graphs to their very exacting and particular standards, by default. There is reference to prototype code in the tender documents, which the tenderer can use if they want.

Verde

@Verbeia Thanks. Do you have a rough estimate for the project's size?

Verbeia

@Verde If you request the tender documents, it will become clear. It is not a small project. I am sure the prototype code could be better, but the main package is already 125kb. Some training is expected as well. The idea is either to use the prototype chart-drawing code and build a GUI around it, or redo the chart-drawing code as well as creating the GUI.

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@Verbeia Did you write the prototype code?

Verde

10:18 PM

@Verbeia Ok. Thanks a lot!

Verbeia

@SjoerdC.deVries Yes, which is why the rest of the work is going to tender. I did it in my free time and it really isn't my job. (Consider what my real job is - there is no way I would have time to write documentation, provide training etc.)

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries As the CEO of "Graphing for the Aussies GmbH" I am looking for cheap programmers for a nice project. Interested?

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@Verde Depends on your definition of cheap

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries I thought you'd be more interested in my definition of "nice project".

Verbeia

Seriously though, I know that at least one site participant will put in a tender, but it would be good if the people assessing the bids (I am not one of them) have a few to choose from. They will then feel comfortable that they have not missed a good option (and that Mathematica was the right thing to choose.)

Sjoerd C. de Vries

10:26 PM

@verde Well, actually, I have other work to do, and a course to study, and a family

@verde Besides, I haven't done much Mathematica development for other needs than my own

@Verbeia You mean MH, I presume?

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries Yep. That's the problem with most Mma users. Little projects, no programming in the large

Verbeia

@SjoerdC.deVries Yes.

@Verde I agree, I never would have dreamed I would produce such a large package, and it's not even all the requested functionality (not the GUI, for instance). It built up piece by piece in spare non-work time over a year.

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@Verde Most projects I did were less than 10 pages of code. I once had a project with about 150 pages, but that grew organically from data processing, and theory testing

@verde Being the only user, I almost never build in error handling code

@verde Documentation and methods in that area aren't particular strong, though Leonid may disagree

Verde

@Verbeia My experience with big projects in Mma is nil. I worked many years in the Software industry, but Mma I used mainly for toy projects. So I guess participating in the tender is a risk for both of us :)

Sjoerd C. de Vries

@Verde Contract Leonid

Verbeia

10:34 PM

@Verde Request the documents from the email address and see what you think.

There might be some "code review" work separate from the main work, later (this is not mentioned in the tender documents).

Verde

@Verbeia OK!

@SjoerdC.deVries No, I won't work with Leonid. He plays in another league

Verbeia

Wolfram released a White Paper on building large systems a while ago that might be useful.

Verde

@Verbeia I already designed (and developed, and implemented ) large systems. And I learned that you learn that by doing it. Too many tricks in the trade. And Mma is the trickiest environment I could think of for this purpose.

acl

@Verde and dead

@Verde like divorce

(sorry going through the chat in chronological order now)

Verde

@acl Feel free to go on. At least you started after the Carta Magna

Verbeia

10:44 PM

@Verde I am not even a software developer so I was flying blind. I'd written something for my own use, and then when no other package could draw the graphs the way the powers-that-be wanted, suddenly Mathematica was the only package left standing and I had to add more demonstration functionality.

Hi @acl, @VitaliyKaurov

Vitaliy Kaurov

@Verbeia Hola ;-)

acl

@Verde exactly, in other environments I have been much more comfortable with large projects. with mma, it's fun all the way to the brick wall

@Verbeia hi

@Verde actually, if you were to recall my actual name, I am significantly "ancienter" than you

mythological, even

Verde

@acl :D

Sjoerd C. de Vries

10:59 PM

1 am here. Getting my 6 hrs of sleep. Bye all

Verde

@SjoerdC.deVries Bye!

Verbeia

@SjoerdC.deVries Bye

acl

@SjoerdC.deVries Night

Sjoerd C. de Vries

I promised my wife to go to bed earlier, but it's a very bad habit. Difficult to break with. Anyway, here it goes (sneak, sneak)

acl

Joking aside, the biggest project we (my group, three people) have used mma for was 20k of code, and I think any bigger would have been very hard for us. With python, I have done much bigger projects, but I was alone so maybe it's a skewed comparison. Still, I am a much worse python programmer than Mathematica programmer

Several people involved complicates things a lot

Rolf Mertig

11:10 PM

@Verbeia does one have to be located in Australia for the tender?

Verbeia

@RolfMertig Rolf - strictly speaking, no, but there is an expectation that some on-site training will be needed. If you are interested, please request the tender documents and see whether it is feasible for you.

It might be possible to do the work off-site and then come for a couple of weeks during deployment?

Rolf Mertig

@Verbeia: just did. Do you know Paul Abbott? He is also someone to ask (wolfram.com/training/instructors/abbott.html)

Verde

@Verbeia With some teleconference and desktop sharing tech I think it should be possible to reduce the stay just to the training phase

Verbeia

@RolfMertig very good point, thanks for the suggestion

@Verde good point - I don't see how training couldn't be done with videoconferencing. We have pretty good facilities for that.

Rolf Mertig

@Verbeia: At least for training he is definitely excellent. Don't know how much large packages he wrote.

Verde

11:16 PM

@Verbeia but you need the same on the other side ...

Verbeia

@Verde companies like Cisco offer facilities in most cities.

Verde

yep

Rolf Mertig

@Verbeia: did you also think of webMathematica? I am involved with two webMathematica projects right now. It is harder to program than Player, but offers some very nice unique features.

Verbeia

@RolfMertig There was already a "Request for Information" that suggested using Player Pro as the deployment environment. webMathematica wasn't mentioned but I think the way the RFI was written did lend itself to fat-client rather than web client.

There was no way I could prototype a webMathematica solution - it would be beyond me.

But if you think that it is an alternative approach, and you are interested in the project, by all means mention this as an option in the tender bid.

@acl my prototype code is 2k lines, 125kb, almost all in one package.

Rolf Mertig

@Verbeia: it depends. If you need locators then webMathematica is out. But with a bit of extra Java programming I once could get semi-rich-interfaces working ( did that once for a prototype using JSF (Java Server Faces) and webMathematica, see slide 15 of wolfram.com/events/technology-conference/2011/finance.html

need to sleep ... bye

Verbeia

11:31 PM

@RolfMertig I think Locators would be needed to interactively place things like series labels and legends, so yes, the Player Pro option is probably the way to go.

Vitaliy Kaurov

any of you guys (and ladies ;-) ) had a chance to look at Simon's answer to my HDR question?

bit.ly/Pf3ZFp

i wonder what his sgd variable is....

Verde

@VitaliyKaurov SoonGotDisease

@Verbeia The Venn diagram is nice

Vitaliy Kaurov

@Verde haha - should i google it ? ;-)

Verbeia

@Verde Yeah, that's one piece that found its way into the RFT late in the piece. My prototype code doesn't do it and there is no expectation that it will be accessible in the GUI - there are some things that the project sponsors accept will have to be done in full Mathematica.

Verde

@Verbeia That one in particular is really difficult. I tried once. Getting the labels in place (with enough space in that place) is very tricky

Verbeia

11:41 PM

@Verde The Venn diagram is really a nice-to-have. I don't think there has been more than one in our publications in many years. But they wanted every possibility to be covered.

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