12:38 AM
About LaTeX: it seems that a good way to copy MathJax math from these posts to Mathematica is copying them as MathML (not LaTeX).

12:55 AM
What, so there isn't a daily rep cap in betas? I got 230 in the first SE day - only one answer-accept in that.

To everyone: Good job on getting the Mathematica Proposal through!

Man, you guys are quick. There's a number of stuff that I was about to answer when I see that somebody posted "20 sec ago"... :D

@JM When I asked about Unique I didn't think I was going to get more or less the same answer four times in 2 minutes.

@MikeBantegui Yeah, FGIW can be a problem sometimes...

@JM What's FGIW?

1:04 AM
@Verbeia UTC, not 'roo time :)

@JM heh, it's the effect of first day of private beta. Upvotes are easy to find like sand in the Sahara. Fastworward 3 months and it'll be like finding water there

@MikeBantegui "fastest gun in the West". See this.
@yoda Heh, you're right. Everybody's euphoric at getting this site to push through... :D

@JM I strangely recall reading something very similar to this. Thanks. I hope we start getting more users.
Reminds me, I need to go send out invitations to my professors who use Mathematica.

Private beta questions can sustain you during lull days... I still live off my private beta rep on Signal Processing... I had 1.5k when private beta ended and now have 2.3k... I think I've maybe added 5-8 answers since then. Still get the trickle upvote
must.increase.participation.

1:08 AM
It's unfair this was launched at US-noon :-P It's 3 AM here now ... :(

This is my first beta for me :) I like it so far.

@JM of course - I was misreading the little dropdown.

I really want to get a Beta badge so that my Area 51 commitments clear and I can help with other sites...
@Szabolcs Well, I was asleep at the time this site got started... good thing I checked Area 51 after waking up. :D

@JM Mind you, this problem with somebody answering 20s ago was also present on SO (with Mr.Wizard often being the somebody!)

@acl Well, he certainly lives up to his namesake..

1:14 AM
and of course the beta starts and I am knee-deep in programming "for real" so can't pause to answer anything serious... oh well
@Mike Actually I have no idea who his namesake is (he provided a link but I am afraid I am missing some cultural background)

@acl I mean the "Wizard" part of his name. He's a wizard, which can mean "expert" in some contexts. It also works with the fact that many of his posts seem to work magically.
@acl: You have access to machines with 512 GB of RAM? I wish..

oh right. I think he is actually referring to this kind of thing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Mr._Wizard
@MikeB yes :)
(I don't want to think how much they cost)

@acl Well that's a bit out of reach for me, simply because I'm too young.
@acl You'd be surprised. 64GB of RAM is pretty cheap now, only ~$600. @MikeBantegui Depends on where you are, though. :) I thought it was more expensive. not so excessive then (of course there's many of these here, with lots of processors--but they're used by many people for a long time, so overall it probably isn't that much). and I don't think that many run mathematica on them :) 1:23 AM @acl Well, the RAM can be cheap. I'd imagine the sort of machines you're working on probably have a much higher markup on top of that. IIRC you have a bunch of mini super computers on site where you work. I recently narrowed down on some specs for my work desktop (which I'm trying to get approved). So if I build it myself, I can get a 24GB RAM w/ 256 SSD and 2TB 7200rpm drive, core i7 (and other small stuff) for about 600-700ish That is simply shocking! That's way too much computing power for one desktop at such low a price I wish they were as cheap here as they are in the US ... drool I don't even have an SSD on this machine, or even 24 GB of RAM. I really don't know how computer manufacturers make profit with how cheap parts are now. @MikeB actually I am working on a 11" macbook air, and just run stuff on the big machines :) (mind you the i7 in the laptop is faster per core than the cluster machine cores) Any of you guys have suggestions on this question? There are at least two senses of that can be used on this site... @Szabolcs Don't worry, you're not the only one who isn't in America... :D 1:27 AM @JM I noticed that and thought the same. I don't have a lot of experience with that so I can't really comment beyond that. @acl This is my workflow for all my school / research work. RDP into my desktop and have it do the number crunching. OK, bedtime at half past three in the morning!!! Good night all The computer I have version 8 on is a tad underpowered, but I manage to do Mathematica art on it anyway... :) @JM I guess we could define tags like "functional-optimization" and "program-optimization" or something like that... @DavidZaslavsky That sounds good to me, but we maybe should ask other people... we tried to discuss tags for optimization-as-in-make-faster vs optimization-as-in-find-extremum a bit, but no consensus was reached 1:29 AM @DavidZaslavsky Agreed. I'd also add "Math-Optimization" to that. also things like mathematical programming I asked a few things on SO w.r.t both functional and program optimization, but they were tagged just simply "optimization" @acl Oh yes, "programming" too. But I'd say is a tad more accurate, if not exactly traditional... @MikeBantegui what would that one be for? I don't think I'll be sleeping tonight with how many people are actually on the Mathematica site.. @DavidZaslavsky I think J.M.'s term of constrained-optimization would be better. I didn't really know the terminology that well. How do you get those tags to come up? 1:32 AM @MikeBantegui [tag:constrained-optimization] For meta: [meta-tag:discussion] @MikeBantegui I agree. But then again, Wikipedia also has a page on mathematical optimization which sounds very similar... In mathematics, computational science, or management science, mathematical optimization (alternatively, optimization or mathematical programming) refers to the selection of a best element from some set of available alternatives. In the simplest case, an optimization problem consists of maximizing or minimizing a real function by systematically choosing input values from within an allowed set and computing the value of the function. The generalization of optimization theory and techniques to other formulations comprises a large area of applied mathematics. More generally, optimization inc... We should definitely make sure to fill in the tag wiki summaries so people know which one to use Also, if anyone has access to edit privileges can they please review my edit for this question? I removed the superscripts from the question because Mathematica doesn't play nice with them. @MikeBantegui isn't that wide an umbrella. Again, if you're dealing with the use of FindMinimum[]/FindMaximum[], that'd be unconstrained optimization. 1:36 AM @JM Fair enough. I still think there should be a separate category for these types of problems. might work on SO since most people would equate it with program optimization, but on here there's a very wide range of things that could reference. @MikeBantegui We need diamond users here I think. None of us has those privileges yet. Maybe you guys who are mods at other sites can ping an SE employee at your private lounge? @JM sure, if there is something specific we need them for In any event, I guess is a sufficiently broad tag. We can split into constrained and unconstrained flavors later if need be. Well having someone who can at least review edits would be nice. Otherwise we can't really improve the quality of posts until someone gets a high enough rep. (so yes, linear programming questions would fall under that rubric as well.) @MikeBantegui Given caps, it can take a few days... 1:38 AM I can't tell you how many times I messed around in mathematica until I realized the "cubes" and "squares" were superscripts. <sub> and <sup> work, but I really wish they'd just extend Markdown to handle these instead of mucking around with HTML... @JM Being in this private beta could mean the first time I ever hit one of those :) @MikeBantegui I've only hit it twice, and once was for this proposal. Nice. Congrats to @Szabolcs and @Verbeia. 1:49 AM @acl: I emailed you about those papers you mentioned last year w.r.t free fermion <-> hardcore boson transformation. Just wanted to give you a heads up. @J.M.: I just saw your profile. How did you create the avatar in Mathematica? @Mike: It took a bit of reckoning on how to modify the parametric equations of the torus. :) This is actually one of my simpler avatars. (I like to think of it as "sculpting with equations".) I need to leave for work. See you guys later! @MikeB sent one, will send some more and some explanation of what is what when I am less tired (tomorrow, it's 3 in the morning here) @acl Thanks! Also, you should really sleep :) I'm a bit of a night owl... I just finished working for the day so I'll try to wind down before going to bed unfortunately I am too tired to try to answer any question here (there's some good ones) 2:05 AM @JM: I retagged the notation question to use the notation tag. I think this might be better than the formatting and layout tags. What is a reputation league? @TobiLehman These apparently show you the running reputation gained for all users over a given time period. Think of it as a way of competing with other users in terms of how much rep you've earned over say, the past day, week, month, or year. @MikeBantegui okay, thank you In the question by @DavidZaslavsky here, he used . I think we want to use , instead. Thoughts? @rcollyer I'm in favor of using program-optimization for this sort of thing. 2:09 AM @MikeBantegui With maybe performance-tuning (if it will fit) as a synonym? and for the mathematical variant. Works for me. @rcollyer That would be useful as well. I think there's one other question with . @MikeBantegui Should be to avoid confusion with the use of the built-in notations like \[Alpha]? Hm.. They overlap very heavily, when I posted that I thought Notation was the best term. You do bring up a good point since it is a package and not the built in behavior. 2:13 AM @MikeBantegui And, no there isn't a question, yet. But, there probably will be soon. @rcollyer I guess I was imagining things then. sleep deprivation. that's my excuse. On a related note, do you think should be instead? And have be a synonym instead? Mathematica tends to refer to "lists" rather than matrices. I have this question in mind Interesting question, as matrices are lists with a specific structure. I don't know. @rcollyer thanks it's my first ever. Never managed it on SO. 2:15 AM Am about to retag but curious on what others think. In the case of the question currently there, I'd consider to be a good fit. Post the question on meta and see what you get. Alright. I ask because the vast majority of Mathematica literature refers to lists moreso than matrices. @Verbeia Managed it once, but I wasn't anywhere near mma at the time. @Verbeia quick question, do you mind if I poach one of your Area 51 questions? On a side note, I love the Mathematica community. People here are so much nicer in general than on SO. I remember having a few bad experiences with high rep users who dismissed because they thought I was asking for something because I was a "bad programmer." @rcollyer which one? One of the proposal ones? or in discuss.area51, which is what you've linked to 2:21 AM I've had similar experiences; one of which, I managed to solve without having any concept of what I did. (A build stopped working, and then started up again.) @Verbeia that wasn't supposed to be the discussion side of things. Grrr ... One of the proposal ones. This one. @rcollyer seems more descriptive than just but given that "optimization" has a specific mathematical meaning, it would make sense to leave that out of the tag @DavidZaslavsky Would you be in favor of rolling into that then? It would help disambiguate that from . @MikeBantegui Yeah, that would be perfectly fine. I was just about to say we should have as a synonym because some people are going to type "optimization" into the tag box, and something relevant should come up for them. @MikeBantegui I'm almost tempted to get rid of in favor of , as I think it addresses the question more specifically. @rcollyer "How do I extend X to implement Y?" Of course - there will be plenty of particular cases, so everyone can have a go. I've already asked two questions so far, so I can pace myself. 2:26 AM @rcollyer That would be best. The two are completely unrelated so it would be way better to tag as . @Verbeia Thanks. I didn't want to steal your thunder. (Is that even an expression down under?) How do you guys feel about placing questions about packages under ? They're usually distinct enough from the core libraries that it could be useful. @MikeBantegui True, and later add the synonym. @Verbeia It's funny, I thought about what I wanted to ask (extending graph-theory) and decided I didn't care quite enough to write a question about it after I asked you. Need to think it through a bit. @rcollyer yes, there is even the "Thunder Downunder" (usually applied to football matches etc). It still sounds like a good question. I wish this proposal launched something like 7 months ago. I had a million questions I wanted to ask but SO wasn't appropriate for them. 2:32 AM @MikeBantegui I understand. @Verbeia Knew about that one. Anyone have any tag suggestions for a question about the definition and distinction between DownValues, UpValues, SubValues, and OwnValues? @rcollyer How's about assignment? That's what it's under in mma reference. @MikeBantegui and it's used in at least one other question, thus far. So, it was a good suggestion. I think my question is a little bit light weight, but it's a start. nine more to go. Hm. I can't seem to view my own question that I just posted. Did anyone see the most recent question I asked on dynamic + manipulate? There is a lag. The beta sites aren't put on the speediest hardware. @rcollyer Good question. *Values is all black magic to me. 2:44 AM @MikeBantegui As long as it's voted on. I want my own mortarboard. :P I would love to get that badge, if only once. Incidentally, my reputation on meta and the main site was the same a few minutes ago. @MikeBantegui That's correct. On every site, but SO itself, the meta Q&A does not count towards rep in anyway shape or form. @MikeBantegui the differences are just caching problems. But you do get different badges on meta. @rcollyer Oh I know, I just thought it was cool the two were the same :) Then someone upvoted an answer of mine. @MikeBantegui in other words the cache is not updating as fast as you want it to. My bank account has the same problem. (Pun intended.) 3 2:53 AM What's the rep cap, 200? yep. but, it doesn't include bounties or the accepted awards. As at right now: 0 days in beta, 29 qus/day, 86% answers, 2.4 answer ratio, 14 users with 200+ rep, 122 visits Poker: 7 days in beta, 6.6 qus/day, 94% answered, 2.5 answer ratio, 92 visits/day Not too shabby. Sex: 6 days in beta, 7.3 qus/day, 92% answered, 14 users with 200+ rep, 115 visits/day oh, and Poker only has 7 users with 200+ rep I'm just sayin'. We are the friendliest :) The description for this chatroom should read "Mathematica is now more popular than Sex and Poker" 2 3:01 AM Still hotter than sex and gambling. @MikeBantegui We consistently were the hottest proposal for our 27 days. @rcollyer Just shows you how dedicated users are to Mathematica. Yeah, well most people can do Mathematica for longer without a break For those who don't know, we went from proposal to completing commitment in 27 days. We shattered the record by 9 days. Mathematica doesn't make me want to gouge out my eyes as often as C# or even C++ does. @Verbeia which is very wrong in my world view. but, this is supposed to be a PG forum ... @MikeBantegui Ah, but for me, I've used what I've learned in c++ in mma, and vice verse. 3:05 AM @rcollyer Likewise, but out of the three I think Mathematica is the most fun to work in. It can also be horrifying, but usually C++ does "better" in this respect. I was comparing with Poker, of course. Mathematica doesn't make you run out of money. @MikeBantegui I have some older mma code, and it is painful to try to figure out what the hell I did. @Verbeia unless its license renewal time ... @Verbeia My bank statement says otherwise. I spent some of my last money on premier license. @MikeBantegui oh my. Was the funeral for your account a good one? @rcollyer Best$100 I ever spent :) Can say that about very few things.

3:07 AM
@MikeBantegui point.

Anyone know how you can get Mathematica to stop updating what's going on in a Manipulate?
I tried writing up a sample for a question I just asked but I accidentally crashed the front end.
Stupid me wrote it in something I was working on (and haven't saved in ~2 hours) and it's currently frozen.

Don't know how to deal with that other than walk away for several minutes and see if the UI eventually responds enough for you to kill Dynamic Updating.

Unfortunately it's spent the past 15 minutes "Formatting Notebook Contents" without trying asking me to kill it.

By any chance, is there a backlog of aborts for it to sort through?

Nope. Completely whited out with Windows saying "Not responding" I'm just gonna kill the process.

3:18 AM
I think that's all you can do at this point. Sorry to hear about the lost work.

Ah not a huge deal. Most of it was me doodling around experimenting stuff. Didn't lose any actual research material.

That's good news. I've lost stuff before, but it was fresh enough in my mind that I could rewrite most of it.

3:30 AM
I almost downvoted earlier on.

Let's see how far we go without it and shame the crap out of the first badge awardee... j/k

I tend to avoid downvoting in the early stages, except on meta.

@rcollyer That's precisely the reason why. I thought because it's so early (barely two days old) that it might be discouraging. Especially because I didn't recognize the poster.

@MikeBantegui my usual reasoning. I tend to reserve them for answers that are just plain wrong.

Ah crap.

3:34 AM

@rcollyer I missed an assignment due for my online class because I spent too much time on this site.

@MikeBantegui I can see how that would be a problem.
@yoda squish away. I can take it!

@rcollyer <terrible reasoning>It's only 5 points and I have perfect grades on all the assignment so far</terrible reasoning>

@yoda I'll also have your little diamond taken away. Ha ha!

@rcollyer heh, you're getting the boot soon, mister

3:36 AM
@MikeBantegui terrible reasoning, but what is 5 points worth out of the entire grade?

Kick you out to go work on your thesis

@rcollyer 5% only.

speaking of which, I need to go wrestle with beamer

bastard!
@yoda ewww!

@yoda I had to do that earlier. Have fun.

3:37 AM
o_O

@MikeBantegui so the assignment is 5% of the total grade?

that's more than my milk

@rcollyer Yeah. If I don't do it (I still have an hour and 22 minutes technically) my grade will (theoretically) drop to a 95%. Which is still an A.

@MikeBantegui half-ass it, and see if you can get half. Or, keep chatting.

@rcollyer "Dear professor, I have not handed in my assignment because of Mathematica..." I can just imagine the response.

3:39 AM
@yoda bring duct tape. possibly super glue to hold it down.
@MikeBantegui me either.

Lol, he was busy earning upvotes on meta where it doesn't count :P

@yoda that was stupid of him.

35ish to go for more.
needs to be more useful to the mma community
@yoda I think if I did that my kids would look at me and say something along the lines of "Seriously? That's lame."
@rcollyer Remember how I said Mathematica crapped out on me?
I forgot to close the instance and it just asked me if I wanted to disable dynamic evaluation. Work not lost after all :)

@MikeBantegui awesome!

wait... CrapOutOnMe[] is not a built in function?

3:47 AM
That sort of thing was what motivated me to ask that question some weeks ago on SO about creating a sandboxed way of evaluating stuff.
@yoda Oh it is. It's called Manipulate.

lol

I think I'm going to re-ask that question here and see if I can flesh out a more powerful and general function for doing this.
I kind of forgot about it last time.

Sounds like a plan.

@rcollyer You didn't know about subvalues before David's answer? I ask because you mentioned it in the question and made me look (only to not find it there). ??SubValues works though

Is there something like Sleep for Mathematica?

3:52 AM
Pause[] I think?

Perfect.

@yoda Yes, by about a day.
So does ?SubValues

I didn't know it either, and missed that in my first reading of your question. Good to know

rcollyer, I figured we should move our comment session to the chat.

So I have something of a predicament. I can have either asynchronous evaluation on random kernels, or blocking evaluation on a specified parallel kernel.

3:55 AM
@David not a bad place for it.
Incidentally, does this room ever get an owner, like Mathematics?

What's an owner?

Owners can be set by other owners or mods. Do you want to be an owner?

@yoda: You're a mod/owner?

Sure.

Ah, sounds like an IRC OP of some kind then ..?

3:57 AM
on gardening!

@rcollyer and dsp. Although I like gardening more...

@David an owner is capable of controlling the room itself.

ssh... don't tell them I have a fave ;)

While we're at it giving newbies OP rights, how would I have approved the edit somebody else did do my post?

3:59 AM
@yoda yeah, but dsp doesn't allow for the same level of ribbing as gardening.

@rcollyer au contraire. I'd actually be happy to be known as mod on gardening =) My chat account is also set to be gardening :)

@David I think you'd see that there was an Edit pending (edit link becomes Edit(0)), and there may have been a method near the top once you enter the edit page.
@yoda I don't mind gardening. I just couldn't resist.

Sounds reasonable.

@rcollyer Actually, I realized after being SO room owner that it's pretty useless. You can change settings, add feeds and change to gallery, etc., but you can't kick anyone, freeze the room or invite low rep users like we tried to with SMiranda

@yoda true, very true.
But, you can revoke write capability, correct?

4:02 AM
your name isn't even in italic like on SO. What a shame.

slackers.

@rcollyer Right. You can set it to "gallery" mode, which means only approved users can write

Great success! Safe and asynchronous evaluation is possible.

@yoda Ha ha ha! Think of the power to be able to strip everyone of the ability to post here!
Well, I'm pretty much over that now. Next.

well, then time to be a mod and enjoy the power lust

4:05 AM
So, it's mostly lust, not actually using any real power?

Would it be too much of a meta question asking for impressive and short Mathematica programs? I've met quite a lot of people asking me "you and your Mathematica, what's so great about it, I can just use Origin for plotting and the Windows calculator for the math".

@rcollyer no, actually it does come with powers, but the question is whether you'll be able to use it as much. I mean, we won't get the same amount of traffic as SO, hence fewer problems.
I've only had to destroy 1 user on gardening, message 2 and merge 1 on dsp in all this time. SO mods do twice that every hour

Hoever, most of the nice examples I've got in my Mathematica folder are either many lines long, or aren't very impressive on first looks.

:3034512 So for any real action, you need to go to SO.
@David Interesting question. I'd suggest posting it on the meta site to get a general consensus.

well, you need to be a mod on SO. The best combination is 10k on both SO and MSO. Then you get to see crap on SO get downvoted and shut down and then the same chap goes to MSO to whine about it where it is met with further scorn.

4:09 AM
@yoda that must be fun

@acl indeed, it's very fun. Past, deleted stuff on SO/MSO is very very fun. MSO used to be a wild, fun place. Now it's just wild without any fun.

oh Leonid is up either very early or very late. shame, I was preparing a couple of answers. I'll be off for a few hours then.
more work to do tomorrow....

Night.

I know an answer is by Leonid when I have to scroll to see who wrote it

@yoda Usually, I don't have to scroll. The code tells me.
Yes, the code speaks to me. Yours doesn't?

4:14 AM
no. The force talks to me.

while gardening, no less. (sorry)

:)

see you guys

Night, @acl.
I should go, so I can get some work done tomorrow, too.

@rcollyer your comment's still there, maybe delete it as obsolete

4:15 AM
My goal is to hit 10k on gardening while raking in the upvotes from spring questions

That said, good night monsieur.

@yoda Pun intended?

@David done.

@MikeBantegui Most certainly :)

@David Night.
Night all. Don't answer all the questions without me.