The Whiteboard

Duga

01:10

Software licensing is outside the scope of the Stack Overflow site. However, you should feel free to ask in the Programmers Stack Exchange site at programmers.stackexchange.com — csixty4 57 secs ago

gnat

06:10

looking for 10Kers help in burninating portfolio tag. 8 quite poor questions (looks like decent ones that had it were retagged)

Ixrec

06:41

@gnat voted on all of them

Duga

07:23

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because licensing advice is off-topic on Stack Overflow. You may be able to get help on Programmers Stack Exchange, but read their faq carefully before proceeding. — Kyll 53 secs ago

Ixrec

08:21

What's the question? — Ixrec 11 mins ago

idea. I want get your opinion — GLeBaTi 59 secs ago

okay...good thing I already VTC'd as unclear

Duga

08:43

The Programmers stackexchange is probably a better place for this question, see: programmers.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic — nibarius 53 secs ago

EcstaticSnow

12:22

Good Morning Whiteboard!!! Don't forget your morning espresso.

Ixrec

hm, I think most of the coffee lovers have left

Simon Forsberg

14:28

in Duga's Neighboorhood, 3 mins ago, by Duga

@errr Just because it's subjective doesn't mean that it automatically belongs on Programmers. Also note that cross-posting is frowned upon. — Simon Forsberg 1 min ago

@Duga didn't classify my comment as being worth to post here, which is quite interesting. It seems like she somehow has learned to separate between a suggestion to post here, and a comment saying not to post here.

ratchet freak

@SimonForsberg does it take into account who posted it?

Aaron Hall

What's the semantic difference between a "Local" and a "Global" access group in Linux?

Simon Forsberg

14:47

@ratchetfreak Nope, only what the text is.

Ixrec

@SimonForsberg is that the "raw" markup text or the post-processed text?

Simon Forsberg

@Ixrec post processed. In this case the processed text was the following:

in Duga's Neighboorhood, 22 mins ago, by Duga

@SimonForsberg Result: @errr just because it is subjective doesn't mean that it automatically belongs on (link-to-programmers)programmers also note that cross-posting is frowned upon —

Ixrec

but it does check for links apparently

Simon Forsberg

in this case I discovered that the following words has quite negative weight: just, that, not, use

Ixrec

those are interesting and imo quite plausible

Simon Forsberg

14:50

@Ixrec You can see all the preprocessing steps here: github.com/Zomis/Duga/blob/develop/src/main/groovy/net/zomis/…

@Ixrec yeah, in this case I guess it is correct because I just referred to programmers, not suggested that it should be posted here.

Ixrec

I can't recall ever seeing anyone suggest posting on programmers while using any of those four words

I feel like part of it is those suggestions are often much shorter than our counter-comments, and terse comments won't use as many of those connectives

Thomas Owens

STOP!

Collaborate and Listen. Ice is back on tour.

Aaron Hall

That's kindof a pushy way to get people to do what you want, Mr. Ice.

Thomas Owens

I am not Ice.

But I'll check out his hook while the DJ revolves it.

Aaron Hall

Speaking of pushy, anyone know what I'm talking about regarding "Local" and "Global" access groups?

Thomas Owens

14:54

In what context?

Ixrec

nope, we're programmers, not sysadmins

14 mins ago, by Aaron Hall

What's the semantic difference between a "Local" and a "Global" access group in Linux?

unless it's talking about chroots, or "global" as the one special group with its own permission bits, I don't think I've ever heard of this

Duga

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on programmers.stackexchange.com — ʰᵈˑ 24 secs ago

Ixrec

@SimonForsberg could you check if "belongs" is extremely strongly correlated with suggestions to post here?

Simon Forsberg

@Ixrec You can do too, reply to @Duga's message in @Duga's Neighborhood and write "do programmers.features"

Robert Harvey

Is a console read considered a side-effect free operation?

Ixrec

15:03

in what context?

I'm not sure if it has "side effects" per se but it's definitely the sort of thing that breaks purity/referential transparency

kinda like getting a random number

Aaron Hall

I had to request groups being created, and they created 4 by default, local/global x read/change

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey No. And Wikipedia confirms.

Robert Harvey

Thanks.

Aaron Hall

but I figured out they added us to global, so that's what I'm going to go with for now...

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec The Scala guy was arguing with me about side effects. He thinks a delay in execution is a side-effect.

Aaron Hall

15:04

global sounds more powerful, but who knows what semantics they're applying.

Robert Harvey

If you're going to go down that route, the temperature of the processor die increasing as I execute my function is also a side-effect, but that's not normally the way we use the term.

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey interesting, I definitely wouldn't consider a delay a side effect (though it is often a symptom of impure environment interactions)

@RobertHarvey I would call that an "implementation detail" =)

Robert Harvey

I know what it says. But it also provides two examples that are quite illustrative. I wouldn't use the non-parentheses variant for a console read either; even though it has no side-effects, you have to wait for it. Also, it's not referentially-transparent. The parentheses-free form is intended for simple, read-only, referentially transparent properties. — Robert Harvey ♦ 6 mins ago

The scala guys weren't exactly clear in their guidelines here, under Arity 0.

Ixrec

I definitely see the ambiguity there

Robert Harvey

15:19

I think it all boils down to their mentioning of a purely functional method, which aside from not having any side-effects, it is idempotent. Since accessing a database like that isn't idempotent, the parenthesis should stay (not referentially-transparent => not idempotent). — errr 2 mins ago

Ah, crap.

Ixrec

was "referentially transparent" too ambiguous?

Robert Harvey

I think it is. I wouldn't de-parenthesize any method that goes off to a database, no matter how referentially-transparent it is.

What amuses me is these folks who use terms without knowing what they mean. Including myself; every time someone gets into one of these semantic arguments, I have to revisit my own understanding of the term.

Ixrec

wait, db accesses are referentially transparent?

I thought anything that had to read from persistent state is the exact opposite of that

Robert Harvey

That sounds fair.

But idempotency has nothing to do with that.

Other than a referentially-transparent function is always idempotent.

Ixrec

yeah, that implication si there

db reads might count as idempotent, but definitely not RT

Robert Harvey

15:28

DB writes are idempotent.

Ixrec

depends on the write, but "normal" writes are yeah

Robert Harvey

All that you have to do to be idempotent is to produce the same result on multiple calls.

Ixrec

I'm referring to the possibility of constructing an SQL UPDATE query with nested SELECT clauses that ends up being non-idempotent

Robert Harvey

Sure.

EcstaticSnow

google.com/…

Robert Harvey

15:32

Mmmm..... Paint. Box. Paint box.

gnat

wonder why Scala guide didn't mention Uniform access principle, this syntactic trick with omitting parentheses seems to be closely related

Uniform access principle

The Uniform Access Principle was put forth by Bertrand Meyer (originally in Object-Oriented Software Construction). It states "All services offered by a module should be available through a uniform notation, which does not betray whether they are implemented through storage or through computation". This principle applies generally to the syntax of object-oriented programming languages. In simpler form, it states that there should be no difference between working with an attribute, precomputed property, or method/query. While most examples focus on the "read" aspect of the principle, Meyer shows...

Ixrec

is that a fancy way of saying "it should be safe to memoize read operations"?

Robert Harvey

The de-parenthesized form that Scala advocates should be fairy uncommon. I would use it in the same place I would use a property in C# that I'm pretty sure would never be changed to a method.

@gnat One more programming principle for hapless new programmers to abuse.

Duga

Consider posting this on Programmers Stack Exchange, but keep in mind they allow for specific design questions but not design discussion so you may want to edit your question in light of this. programmers.stackexchange.com — Nex Terren 43 secs ago

Aaron Hall

hm...

Robert Harvey

15:38

@Duga Seems suitable for Programmers.

EcstaticSnow

Agile Programming... Might have to try it closes eyes and starts typing

Aaron Hall

osmotically absorbs ideas

Just call me spongebob.

EcstaticSnow

dilbert.com/strip/2007-11-28

Ixrec

so that's at least two of us reading Dilbert right now

Robert Harvey

Is queue.size referentially transparent? It isn't, is it?

Ixrec

15:42

I would be very worried if a size() method was not RT

Robert Harvey

Yes, but isn't it subject to change?

EcstaticSnow

dilbert is pretty entertaining

Ixrec

obj.func() is essentially the same thing as func(obj)

if someone pops the queue later and calls size again, that's equivalent to passing a different queue object

Robert Harvey

Well... only if you have an immutable queue.

Ixrec

I guess technically you would have to do "C-style OOP" to actually have your read methods be RT

immutable queue is how you get write methods to be RT, pretty sure it's not necessary if we're interested in the read methods

Robert Harvey

15:47

Sure, if you don't plan on ever queueing or dequeueing

ratchet freak

@RobertHarvey or always create new queues on each modifying operation

Ixrec

I'm still not getting why size(poppedQueue) != size(originalQueue) implies that size() is not RT

Robert Harvey

16:00

Referentially-transparent means that you can replace the function with its result, and the program will still work.

You can memoize, in other words.

Or your can use immutability everywhere.

EcstaticSnow

Can everyone else see the SS

Robert Harvey

What's an SS?

MetaFight

now that C# has get-only properties creating immutable objects is a butt-tonne easier... but making a CopyAndMutate function is just as annoying :\.

EcstaticSnow

screen shot

MetaFight

sorry. Random observations.

EcstaticSnow

16:03

Pops up every 30 minutes on my phone, but no security apps detect it

Thomas Owens

It could be coming from an open web browser instance. Or an app.

Robert Harvey

I like referential transparency better. Functions with side-effects are not referentially transparent. But don't miss what I said about the two examples. queue.size is a property, one that is very unlikely to require changing to a method. And technically it's not referentially transparent, since someone can change queue.size by adding something to the queue (unless perhaps you're passing around immutable queue objects). It is side-effect-free, though. — Robert Harvey ♦ 22 mins ago

EcstaticSnow

It's an app(I beleive) It pops up randomly and I click Task Manager to see what it is, but it's just an application with no name, so I can't just search it and install it

McAfee will help

MetaFight

@EcstaticSnow what is the app running in the background? I find it suspicious that the popup uses the same font...

EcstaticSnow

Aha I found the application without the name in downloaded applications

Simple fix I guess probably from downloading random stuff offline

Watch it come back later though

If I was rooted I'd be able to check out all the requests and auto starts

Robert Harvey

16:14

It might not come back, unless the programmer was especially clever.

EcstaticSnow

I really want to get the source code of it, but I already deleted it

Thomas Owens

16:27

Crap. I forgot. In Linux, are you supposed to install things to /opt or /usr/[bin | sbin | lib]?

EcstaticSnow

Never touched linux

Ixrec

Once I tried to find out which of those linux directories was the correct one. I do not remember what happened next, only that many hours were wasted and no knowledge was gained.

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec OK. I found it.

/bin is for essential commands and /sbin is for essential binaries. You shouldn't install to these.

/opt for for applications

Ixrec

for the root bin, sure

is that the rule for "sub-bins" too?

Thomas Owens

/usr/bin and /usr/sbin are for non-required commands and binaries, respectively.

So you put your IDE in /opt, your compiler in /usr/bin, and libraries for things in /usr/bin in /usr/lib.

So /opt/ and /usr/xxx are where your customer installs go. It depends on if it's a stand-alone application or a command.

Ixrec

16:32

that's so straightforward I'm not sure if I believe you

EcstaticSnow

/cd C:/ is easier

Thomas Owens

Filesystem Hierarchy Standard

The Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS) defines the directory structure and directory contents in Unix and Unix-like operating systems. It is maintained by the Linux Foundation. The latest version is 3.0, released on 3 June 2015. Currently it is only used by Linux distributions. == Directory structure == In the FHS, all files and directories appear under the root directory /, even if they are stored on different physical or virtual devices. Some of these directories only exist on a particular system if certain subsystems, such as the X Window System, are installed. Most of these directories exist...

@EcstaticSnow Good luck developing in C or C++ on Windows. Have fun with that.

Ixrec

heh, I knew you'd just look at the standard

I'm fairly sure part of my wasted time was trying to figure out if anyone actually followed the standard and getting a resounding "what standard?"

Thomas Owens

However...

EcstaticSnow

Lol, how do I even get linux.

Thomas Owens

16:33

> Some Linux distributions no longer differentiate between /bin versus /usr/bin and /sbin versus /usr/sbin. They symlink /bin to /usr/bin and /sbin to /usr/sbin. And /usr/sbin may get symlinked to /usr/bin.

Apparently, Arch Linux does that. It also symlinks /lib to /usr/lib

So in Arch, all command binaries go into /usr/bin, non-essential binaries (daemons and such) in /usr/sbin, and libraries in /usr/lib. Applications still go to /opt.

There are also rules about a local directory actually being on the local host. But I don't see that as an issue. I think I'm good now.

user114359

@ThomasOwens on Kubuntu 14.04 I have separate /bin, /usr/bin, /sbin, and /usr/sbin

Thomas Owens

@Snowman Yeah, that's standard. A few distros don't follow the standard, though.

user114359

I actually have zero directory symlinks in / and /usr

Thomas Owens

You shouldn't touch /bin or /sbin.

You should install to /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/lib, and /opt depending on what you're installing, is what I'm understanding.

gnat

10 hours ago, by gnat

looking for 10Kers help in burninating portfolio tag. 8 quite poor questions (looks like decent ones that had it were retagged)

Thomas Owens

16:38

@gnat Looks done to me.

Oh. Nope. Wrong tag tab.

user114359

user@host:/$ touch bin
touch: setting times of âbinâ: Permission denied
Yikes!

user114359

@gnat I did my part

Thomas Owens

Now it's done.

Kit Z. Fox

I thought I-Frame was generally considered to be horrible.

Maybe I'm thinking of something else?

user114359

IFrames are a security hole waiting to happen

user114359

16:43

I know there used to be a ton of exploits involving them. I think they are mostly fixed in modern browsers, but people still tend to avoid and distrust them.

Kit Z. Fox

This is the fragment from the "scope document" I was given: I-Frame video presentation, Providing a layer of security not allowing sharing URL

And my reaction was "wtf do you want to do that?"

I think it's also really hard on compatibility, isn't it? I know my former advisor couldn't access stuff that was in i-frames. I think.

Eh. I guess my information is probably outdated.

It looks like if I think of iframes as "widget" then my attitude improves.

Aaron Hall

17:11

iframes: bad for public use, maybe good for internal?

Kit Z. Fox

The point is to control video access externally, I think.

We're setting up some kind of pay-per-view content, streamed video for course or something.

I'm trying to get a handle on what the actual work is.

Aaron Hall

we had a web gui that I made easy to add and remove components to (what's that called? modular?) and we were able to develop components separately, but together they were sometimes too much for a single process to serve, so we hosted other processes in iframes.

Kit Z. Fox

Hey. What happened to your cat?

She seems to have gone ginger and human.

Aaron Hall

She grew up into a human. :D

My wife is not really ginger, she's artificially flavored.

Kit Z. Fox

You married a cat? I didn't know a body could do that.

Aaron Hall

17:18

I want to take a nap now.

I'm a cat too.

Kit Z. Fox

That sounds awesome. snoozes

Duga

As for details of how to approach the problem, your question is just too broad. If you have no idea how to proceed, then the question would be better suited to Programmers. Since you should not cross post, if you ask there then you should delete this question. — John Bollinger 17 secs ago

Aaron Hall

17:58

Remember, "More is less."

Robert Harvey

19:01

What are you trying to do with EF? There are a lot of good books, but they all seem pretty dated. Our shop uses it for CRUD, but we're a bit odd; we are moving towards a "headless" model (No edmx) similar to the one used in Dapper. There's "Code First," "Database First," "How I Met Your Mother First..." — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

ucha

Can i get an advice about programming languages? I began a project. The project is a smartpen that determines the position of the pencil and sends the information to computer. I am not sure which programming language should i learn. Can any programming language handle this? Can i directly make an application in google play so that i will not deal with other programming languages? Thanks

Robert Harvey

Which programming language do you already know?

ucha

C

Steven Burnap

Does the smartpen maker provide libraries?

Ixrec

^ is the really big question

in principle any programming language can do anything

what's practical is largely determined by what code other people have already written for you

ucha

19:11

By saying library what did you mean, sorry , im beginner

Robert Harvey

Are you just using a stylus with an Android device?

We're not clear on what you mean by "smart pen."

And since you mentioned "Google Play" it sound like you're talking about an Android device like a smart phone.

[plays jeopardy song]

Robert Harvey

19:28

@Ixrec Guess we lost another one.

Ixrec

seems like it

Robert Harvey

Programmers: bodies littered everywhere.

Ixrec

dunno how much we could've really done though, that was clearly headed in a "you need to read books X, Y, Z before you can even understand what you're proposing" direction

Robert Harvey

Google Play almost certainly means Java.

But it's hard to tell.

Ixrec

it's not even clear if he was actually talking about smart pens or just touch events on a phone

Robert Harvey

19:33

In other news, we moved to .NET 4.6 on some of our software, promptly crashed some of the programs, and hastily moved back to 4.5.2

Seems Roslyn needs a bit more work.

Ixrec

what does Roslyn actually do again?

Robert Harvey

Roslyn is the new C# compiler written in C#.

More or less.

Compiler as a Service, and all that.

We do a lot of runtime scripting using CSScript. Which pretty much ties us to C#5, since the author of CSScript says "Don't bother with Roslyn."

Although I'm a bit fuzzy on the details.

github.com/dotnet/roslyn

Ixrec

hm, the csscript faq doesn't appear to mention this

@RobertHarvey what exactly is CSScript? I'm reading the pages about why you should use it but somehow I'm failing to grok what the point of it all is; just a lot of "it's C#, but scripting!" which doesn't mean anything to me.

oh wow I'm thick

"normal" C# is compiled, not interpreted

Robert Harvey

It's still compiled; it just uses a CodeDOM to do the compilation on the fly. It can be done within other C# programs.

We use it in a Workflow system that has Stages and Activities. Each Activity has a Code-Behind class that executes.

That's where CSScript comes in.

StackExchange

An Optimization Exercise

Kevin Montrose on April 26, 2016

My colleague set off a little bit of a benchmarking contest...

Robert Harvey

19:47

You can hot-patch a Workflow system by publishing the edited code-behind to the server.

Ixrec

ok, hot patching I can get behind

Robert Harvey

In addition, the whole thing is very scalable, because each Activity can be executed on one of any number of Workflow servers.

There's a tool that my boss wrote in WPF that makes the workflow visual.

You can just click on one of the Activities to get at the CodeBehind.

There's very little architecture, other than the actual workflows. We use a multi-tiered approach, but it's insulated from the developers by the Workflow server. All they do is interact with the database through a repository.

Duga

21:14

This is a better question for Programmer's Stack Exchange, but note that they deal with specific questions about best practices and not discussion, so be forewarned. programmers.stackexchange.com — Nex Terren 2 mins ago

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