The Whiteboard

7:00 PM

@GlenH7 a lot of our code is perl / mason, which is basically what you get if you combine the worst parts of perl with a language like jsp / asp / etc.

user41796

My crude categorizations are really just crude assessments of what scale of code I think the language can support

user41796

Powershell doesn't support large code bases. But it's exceptionally good when you've got some tight work to do in a Winders environment

Ampt

@durron597 I'm not saying claim to be a "full stack" dev

but don't be just a Ruby on Rails dev

there is a middle ground there

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 now that you've seemingly settled in, how are you feeling about everything? Pretty pleased with yourself on going out there?

user41796

@durron597 makes mental note

durron597

7:02 PM

i characterize myself as a programmer that has a lot of experience / preference with java

but i am not a "java developer"

user41796

@psr That's a good observation, I've heard positive things on react too

Ampt

@durron597 Exactly this

durron597

a lot of the time i've spent here has been doing things like debugging javascript and perl / mason

i don't know if this is true for the rest of you, but my programming experience has mostly prepared me for DEBUGGING languages i'm not familiar with.

Ampt

Selling yourself as a Java dev means "I shut down when confronted with Python/C#/whatever other language you use" which probably isn't true

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I think polyglot is the best anyone can hope for, and it's vastly more measurable than "full stack" - someone claims it and you can start asking them questions about varied languages and know pretty well if they're bullshit. Full stack however makes for a great buzz word precisely because it's not measurable..

durron597

7:03 PM

i wouldn't want to write perl / mason code, but i can often debug it faster than some of my colleagues

amon

@durron597 TBH I have yet to see a good Perl template system. Though mason is … well, my condolences. Of course, Perl can be nice, if used as Modern Perl

user41796

@durron597 i CAN HAZ DE BUGS?

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 debugging is I believe step one to genuinely learning a language... bug-land is always the best place to start in work with a new language I believe. It prepares you with the knowledge of how shit breaks in that particular tech.

durron597

@amon a lot of us newer folks on this team are trying to migrate as much of our code off of perl mason as possible. unfortunately in most cases it's hard to avoid if we want to plug into the larger infrastructure

psr

@JimmyHoffa That is real possibility. Or stealing stuff from react might help. I haven't really tried it out. If I were learning a big enterprisey framework now I'd do react. If I didn't want to use giant existing grid control libraries and stuff like that, I'd probably just use virtual-dom and vanilla js, or mercury.js.

user41796

7:05 PM

@JimmyHoffa I think this goes back to why I feel squirmy inside with async code. Since I don't have a model of how it wraps back to the transistors, I feel like I don't know how to debug it properly except to iterate and pray.

durron597

the goal is "thin perl/mason wrapper, then write everything else in something else"

@JimmyHoffa i agree

amon

@durron597 at the scale of your company, even that is insane.

durron597

however, often times when you start from the debugging side you often find yourself saying, months or years later "omg i didn't know X language had Y feature"

@amon it works! i don't like the language, but i can't deny that it works.

psr

@JimmyHoffa Start by writing bugs. Got it.

5

durron597

@JimmyHoffa it's less different than anything else than i expected; there's lots of things that are really smart and great here, and lots of things that are really stupid and awful here

just like the rest of the world

Jimmy Hoffa

7:09 PM

@GlenH7 I think a really simplistic cooperative-multithreading model around coroutines is the best entry point to really understanding async stuff. Async can easily be done in one thread with a hosting-executor that gives you the ability to bounce back and forth between different stacks, that's how Node.JS is modeled and how yield works in C#. Once you have that concept down pat, bridging to the idea that cross-thread-communication signals that switch becomes fairly straight forward

user41796

@psr And then bring Haskell into your heart

durron597

the fact that when the New York Times article came out, the response was super mixed with lots of love AND lots of hate doesn't surprise me in the least.

now that i've been here for 2 months

Ampt

Could you guys quiet down? I'm busy spending my imaginary lottery winnings.

user41796

@Ampt Is the draw tonight?

enderland

I decided I wouldn't want to win, even if I had the choice

durron597

7:10 PM

@Ampt what does a sock puppet need 800m for, anyways? diamond eyes?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Duh! Different stacks is a good way of thinking about it. Thanks!

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 yeah, makes sense. But for your particular placement and situation, feel like you've made an improvement? Sounds like you're definitely getting new experiences which is for sure valuable.

user41796

@enderland It brings a world of different problems, that's for sure

durron597

@JimmyHoffa i feel like i'm growing in my career again, that's for sure

if nothing else, this has been worth it for that reason alone

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 so what I'm hearing unsaid is "The grass doesn't glow fluorescent green"

user41796

7:11 PM

Feeling stagnant in your career is a horrible feeling

durron597

realize that i have never worked at a company with more than 10 software developers in the entire company before

now there are 10 devs ON MY TEAM

user41796

@durron597 Quite a bit of a step up now that there's 12 in the company

enderland

@GlenH7 you basically have to give up most of your life as you know it and be ok with it. I'm not ok with that

user41796

@enderland I don't know that I agree with that statement

durron597

@JimmyHoffa the grass is much greener. there are things i don't like, but imo that's life

user41796

7:13 PM

Although I do live in a state where you can win the lottery and remain anonymous

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 this really can't be undercut, there are so many places that will offer zero growth and encourage absolute stagnation, so as long as you're not dealing with crazy pains anything like the NYT article, you're probably going to get a ton out of it after a couple years

durron597

you will never end up in any company or any situation where everything is perfect

user41796

@durron597 it's the 60 / 40 rule. Something will always suck. Just make sure it doesn't measure out to more than 40% of what's going on

enderland

@GlenH7 yeah, that's helpful

durron597

@JimmyHoffa well, let me clarify; i am not yet sure what the timeline might be like for like, salary and seniority growth

Jimmy Hoffa

7:14 PM

besides, it stacks your resume for sure. You'll be able to write your ticket.

durron597

i've only been here two months, pretty premature

user41796

@enderland and tbh, I already have a plan for giving away large chunks of it after I win tonight.

durron597

but as far as like, new technologies, doing web work, at all, doing front end work, at all, learning how to work as part of a large company and liaising with other teams, all that jazz

@JimmyHoffa exactly. resume stuffer for sure if i don't get the seniority / salary growth i want.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 bah, I just meant personal / experiential growth. 2 years in a place like that - vastly different from anything you've done before - piles of techs you've never seen and executing at undoubtedly fast pace, you'll pick up tons of new skills and perspectives that you'll get to carry with you

enderland

@GlenH7 ;-) I think the clincher for me was realizing that even if I decided to give it all away that's still going to affect my lifestyle enough that other people notice and then... all hell breaks loose

durron597

7:15 PM

@JimmyHoffa yeah. i'm totally getting that

enderland

I hope I will have a similar experience in a few months :-)

Jimmy Hoffa

In this industry, I never expect salary/career growth in one place, experience growth is what counts because growing your salary / career is to be done by hopping in this industry. It's just the way it is until business people get their heads out of their asses and stop thinking it's cheaper to keep people where they are

durron597

i'm also really glad i picked this team and not the other team; even though i don't really know what team that was, from the description combined with what i now know about working here, the growth would have been a fraction of what it's been so far.

Ampt

@GlenH7 Yes.

@enderland s\wouldn't want to win\wouldn't want anyone to know I won\g

@durron597 closer to 40 - I'm in a pool with my co-workers

enderland

@Ampt yeah that was my original thought too but then I realize it's pretty much impossible for me to pull that off

durron597

7:17 PM

@JimmyHoffa my boss said it would be possible for me to get promoted after 1 year. i know of one person who was hired at a junior developer level and 3.5 years later has been promoted twice and is running the entire video ads team

well, the video ad player team

Ampt

@durron597 Also it's 930M Before taxes

durron597

@Ampt and you said i'm the perfectionist

Ampt

@enderland Why? Just don't do anything super drastic. You manage to find a great deal on a new car here, get a great mortgage rate tehre

user41796

@Ampt That's a nice bump up from the earlier prediction of $0.8B

enderland

@Ampt would you keep working your same job if you had 40M?

Ampt

7:19 PM

@GlenH7 no one won the last one - so it rolls over to this one. The Annuity option is 1.5Billion

lump sum is 930M

@enderland For a month. Then I would get laid off and or find something that pays a lot less but is more of what I want to do

durron597

i've gotta wonder

Ampt

@durron597 How much wood a wood chuck could chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?

durron597

wouldn't it be possible for large banks to beat the lottery's lump sum conversion rate

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 no you don't! Stop it! Sit down and do what you're told! Wondering is not acceptable behaviour; conform damnit!

Thomas Owens

@Ampt How much Woodchuck could a woodchuck chug if a woodchuck could chug Woodchuck?

enderland

7:21 PM

@durron597 no, since you can have multiple winners which makes the expected value of a lottery ticket hard to predict

durron597

if it's 1.5 -> $930, i wonder if a large bank could offer like 1.5 -> 1.1 or something

Ampt

@ThomasOwens CANNIBAL!

durron597

what i mean is, you win and take the annuity option, whatever it is

enderland

oh, gotcha

durron597

then you go to a bank and say "hey. the lottery would have given me 66% for lump sum. could you give me 80%"?

Ampt

7:22 PM

Good question - it's probably too close for them to touch

enderland

problem is most people who win are financially irresponsible and reckless

Ampt

So all they have is the lump sum right now - they stick it in an account and invest it for you if you want the annuity

durron597

@Ampt invest it in what?

Ampt

if it does better, they keep it

they guarantee return though, so if it does worse, they eat some of it

@durron597 That's proprietary

but it's a 30 year investment

not hard to make 930M turn into 1.5B over 30 years

durron597

invest it in US t bills

user41796

7:24 PM

My understanding was that the cash-value payout amount takes current investment rates into consideration

Ampt

wow, no it does not

1.5% compounded yearly gets you to 1.5B in 30 years

enderland

keep in mind taxes, though I guess that'll hit most of either 1.5B or 930M the same rate -- in 2016

user41796

So my hunch is that most banks wouldn't want to take the risk as proposed

enderland

I'd assume taxes will be higher on most of that in the future, so taxes are a huge liability for the annuity

Ampt

you need fancier math than I did to figure out how to split it up into 30 payments but still - 3% maybe

@enderland yeah, we did the tax calculations too - 40M per person is after taxes

enderland

7:26 PM

well I mean that the top tax rate now is about 40%

if in the future goes up to 50% that's a huge absolute dollar value

psr

@Ampt 20 year t-bill currently at 2.51. 30 has been discontinued.

Ampt

@psr yeah but then you lock it up for 30 years. Maybe do half in T-Bills

user41796

And I'm not saying it's a perfect equation they're using, but they do take current rates into account

Thomas Owens

@psr What is a t-bill?

user41796

Treasury bill

Jimmy Hoffa

7:28 PM

@ThomasOwens ThunderBill, sequel to ThunderCat

psr

I'm just saying the annuity is pretty crummy. You would probably want lump sum even if you are very risk averse.

enderland

@psr realistically I think the annuity only is a good idea if you expect yourself to be a complete moron with the money and want to delay your stupidity

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Oh. I've seen those.

user41796

@enderland That pretty well nails it

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr yeah, I would think the lump sum would provide a significantly better investment option

psr

7:28 PM

I haven't bought a ticket because I don't think it really lowers my chance of winning not to.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I haven't bought a ticket because THE WORLD IS OUT TO GET ME AND I KNOW THEY'LL DECLARE AS LOTTERY LOSER I HAVE TO GIVE ALL MY MONEY TO THE WINNER! I HATE YOU WORLD! WHY MUST YOU TORMENT ME SO!?!

Ampt

@psr I went in on the pool cuz it was something fun to do on a friday afternoon

psr

@enderland You could take the lump sum and lock it up immediately and do better. But we've already assumed we're talking about a moron, so...

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa All of this is interesting to me. If I were to win, what would be the best options? Go debt free then invest, pay off some debts and invest, etc etc.

user41796

For me, it's a cheap price to pay for a fair amount of entertainment and self-reflection.

Ampt

7:30 PM

@GlenH7 Exactly, now would you all shut it so I can spend my imaginary money in peace!?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I found a cut-rate deal for self-reflection way cheaper than lotto tickets

user41796

@ThomasOwens with $930M, if you can't pay off all of your debts, then you ought to incorporate as your own private country.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa cheaper than 2 bucks?

psr

@GlenH7 I'm working out how to spend the imaginary money. I just haven't bought a ticket. I could still find the winning ticket on the sidewalk.

Ampt

@GlenH7 I would pay them all off just because then I don't have to think about them.

user41796

7:31 PM

@JimmyHoffa I like scotch too, but lottery tickets don't have any calories

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt yeah, I got a line on $1 self-reflection, the $0.25 self-reflection I bought off a hobo was far too low quality though

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I can. But, for example, should I pay off my 0% car loan faster or just invest that $9k that's left?

enderland

@ThomasOwens I feel like you may be misestimating the scale of money involved here

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa hate that. He probably made you reflect right there on the street, didn't he.

enderland

with 400,000,000 after taxes you have made the decision about your car completely and utterly irrelevant

Ampt

7:32 PM

@ThomasOwens again, you're talking like .000001% of your net wealth right there

user41796

@ThomasOwens Opportunity cost at that point. Why bother worrying about something that you'll have quickly recouped via interest.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt and then he asked me to buy more self-reflection on top of it! It was horrible.

user41796

Pay it off, forget about it, roll around in the interest money

Thomas Owens

@enderland It's enough for like 3 generations to live on, I think I saw somewhere. Like - everything. Cars, mad expensive eduation, houses, and so on.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa well worth it to go for the dollar self-reflection then. No doubt.

psr

7:32 PM

@ThomasOwens Buy a little less blow and have one of the hookers run some cash over to the car dealership.

enderland

@ThomasOwens 3 generations? you could do far far far more than 3 generations with 400M

Ampt

Interest alone could sustain a family indefinitely

12M a year @ 3% interest

pretty sure I could live off of that.

Thomas Owens

Where do you get 3% interest?

Ampt

that's without touching the principal (Apparently us rich folk don't do that)

user41796

@ThomasOwens quite a few stock dividends will bring that in

Thomas Owens

7:34 PM

@GlenH7 Not whatever my 401k is in. :(

Ampt

@ThomasOwens conservative estimates of market investment?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens who gives a shit, make it 0.5% and you're still making a life times money per year.

Ampt

you ain't gonna get it off a savings account

enderland

@ThomasOwens well the overall market has dropped a fair bit this year so far and was pretty flat last year, it's long term trends that matter

Thomas Owens

@Ampt A savings account is less than 0.5% these days, aren't they? Anyone doing better?

Ampt

7:34 PM

seriously. .3% then - now you only get 1.2M a year

psr

@ThomasOwens Financial planners usually consider a 4% average return over a long term to be a pretty safe assumption.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens .5% lol yeah right. Mine is like .05% maybe

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Yeah. I think mine is 0.01%.

Ampt

but seriously, 400M is easily enough to live forever. If I had that kind of money I would be like bill gates and solve some sort of problem

user41796

multpl.com/s-p-500-dividend-yield Has a pretty chart showing S&P 500 dividend yield

Ampt

7:35 PM

Like building my own nuclear reactor. Or harvesting space rocks.

enderland

I'm getting 0.15% interest in my largest checking account... wooooo

Jimmy Hoffa

There's a trick (not purposefully) in the whole banking industry regarding consumer instruments; everytime things have been difficult they've tightened and given less to consumers. Everytime things get better, they don't go back to competing (because why compete with others when you don't have to?). And then things get tight again and they reduce it all again.

user41796

@Ampt I think that's the type of path I'd follow as well

Jimmy Hoffa

That's why savings accounts give practically no interest these days, and banks have fees on every thing everywhere

Ampt

@GlenH7 cuz fuck living on that forever. The world doesn't need another hoighty toighty asshole

enderland

7:36 PM

nah it's because inflation is low and so are federal reserve interest rates, so banks can't make much as the middleman

Jimmy Hoffa

Part of it is consumers make up the tiniest bit of banks revenue it's not really worth their time. The amount of money they make off corporate investors makes us just an arbitrary extra boondoggle to their business.

user41796

@Ampt ding!

psr

@Ampt I thought you were pro lottery.

Ampt

@psr I'm pro spending

Now hold still so I can trickle down on you...

user41796

There's also the option to create your own 501c3 at the same time you receive the winnings. You can roll 40% of your winnings into the 501c3 and deduct that from your 1040.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:38 PM

@enderland it's not about their margins for consumers, it's about their margins for consumers compared to their margins for the wealthy and corporations

Ampt

@GlenH7 501c3 = trust fund?

enderland

@GlenH7 oh, that's not bad

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Non-profit organization.

Jimmy Hoffa

Ampt

@ThomasOwens oh of course.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:39 PM

since 1984 we have had many booms, but banks have never increased rates in any meaningful way

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa again, at .3% you're getting 1.2M a year for 400M invested

user41796

It's a neat little way to shield a lot of the winnings if you plan on giving away a lot of it anyway

Ampt

or you could withdraw a mil a year for 400 years at 0%

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt for sure, I'm just trying to dispel the point people make about savings rates being low for any reason other than banks don't need to compete for consumers, so they choose to provide less to us.

enderland

> would it be the worse idea to talk to the scrum master myself and explain in a nice way how stupid his decision is

ugh

Ampt

7:41 PM

@JimmyHoffa Oh yes, banks are awful. That's why I'm switching to a CU

user41796

I've had a CU account for decades now

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt +1 I've been working with a local credit union for almost 10 years now, they're so awesome. Their rates are competitive but perhaps not always the best, but their service is miles ahead of a bank, and the money difference is insignificant.

enderland

I bank at an online bank and have similar experiences, since they don't get any "convienence" customers they actually have to try

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa do you guys have an app or anything?

user41796

For a short period of time when I was a teen, I had a bank account with a local bank. But switched to a CU shortly after and have been quite happy that way

Jimmy Hoffa

7:43 PM

They'll actually negotiate with me in good faith 'nat

Ampt

That's my big fear - I do everything online and chase is awesome with that, so I'm afraid about going to a CU and having shitty online/mobile app options.

user41796

@Ampt My CU does

Ampt

They might make me use actual paper checks gasp

enderland

@GlenH7 heh I had an account that converted when I turned 16 or something and started dinging me $2/month in fees at my local bank, the guy who talked to me about that basically had this grin on his face talking about how that works like that and I was super pissed off and will NEVER bank with that place ever, ever again

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt depends on the CU. Lots of them these days do.

user41796

7:44 PM

@Ampt I only use paper checks when its convenient for me

Ampt

@GlenH7 I buy them 3 at a time from chase for those once a year times I need them

user41796

@Ampt My CU gives them to me for free

Ampt

@GlenH7 well la-te-fucking-da

Jimmy Hoffa

Credit unions really are great because both they're competing for the general public's business, and they're frequently local and make a point of keeping their money that way - investing locally and such.

Ampt

any good recommendations for midwest credit unions?

enderland

7:46 PM

@Ampt not TCF bank

Jimmy Hoffa

Find a local one in your town that has only a few branches there.

user41796

@Ampt Just saying ... not all CUs are itty bitty things

Ampt

@GlenH7 yes father

@enderland noted.

user41796

@Ampt Trying to find some in your neck of the woods that are affiliated with mine

user41796

As the CUs pool together to have apps and backend services provided

Jimmy Hoffa

7:48 PM

I love that the CU I use being small and local - I can ring up the title clerk any time, or anybody there and they'll take the call and work with me rather than just sending me to some teller or trying to route me around and not caring what the result is

enderland

@Ampt they are regional, I think, not sure if they are technically a credit union but... they had some serious assholes in them and I will do everything I can to make them lose business. ;)

Ampt

@GlenH7 Wisconsin or Illinois based works

Have cash will travel

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt where do you even live? I thought you lived in Madison..

or...something.. No, I have no idea. Don't you live in a largeish urban metro though?

user41796

@enderland There is a step between credit union and bank. I think it's called a mutual bank

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Currently In Chicago

Jimmy Hoffa

7:49 PM

living ? I know you work there but thought you lived well out of town

Ampt

Want to move back to Wisco sometime this year though.

enderland

@MichaelT can help you with (2)

Ampt

Oh really?

And work for the FILTHY GUBBERMENT?!

Jimmy Hoffa

gotcha. Well look in whichever city you want to live; madison or wherever for their local places. Lots of times CU's are offshoots that used to be extensions of unions - those will have again a large focus culturally on service for every day hard working folk that they were built to provide for.

enderland

gubbermint *

user41796

7:53 PM

@Ampt - this is probably relevant then: ncua.gov/analysis/Pages/locate.aspx

Ampt

oooh

shiiiinyyy

user41796

@ThomasOwens - Thanks for handling the flag

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 No prob.

enderland

@GlenH7 so secritive

user41796

@enderland If you only knew...

user41796

7:55 PM

But I wanted to give another question a chance

Ampt

Flag?Flagweight?

@GlenH7 What does this tell me? I'm not seeing anything their website doesn't say?

or is this just to prove they are a real credit union

user41796

That's the national CU organization. So it allows you to find a CU in the place you want to move to

user41796

And then they have another page where you can do a bit more research on the CU and compare them

Ampt

ahhh ok

user41796

So let's pretend I wanted to move to Milwaukee and have a CU there...

Ampt

7:59 PM

well, they can compare basic stuff like size and assets, but that's not really what I'm looking for

I want Good Mortgage rates, quality customer service, decent app/web presence, in that order of importance.

user41796

I think the medium to larger CUs will provide you with what you're looking for. You can identify a few that seem interesting and then check out their sites

enderland

Internet gets wonky after an 8 hour day when working from home? time to call it quits...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt mortgage rates are an odd bird where CUs are involved. They typically don't own mortgages unless you're dealing with one that would be a very valuable investment for them. Most CUs will do the brokering and shop around on their own as brokers to get the best rates / services for their customers post-origination

Because CUs size they often won't take much risks where mortgage-amounts of money are involved, so you have to have a ridiculous loan to value ratio for them to put it directly on their own sheets

user55340

The problem I had with CU was the locality. One of my smaller great road trips I needed to do some transfer. It was a pain trying to find a CU in the network when I was in another state.

user55340

Thus, when I moved I switched to a national bank.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:11 PM

@MichaelT always worth having a plain jane checking account with a national bank for this reason, but even that won't save you - Pittsburgh didn't have any USBank services so I had to open a PNC account there.. meanwhile I never even heard of PNC until moving there because they provide zero services this side of the mississippi so I closed it out when I left there

user55340

Was odd opening the account. They were "do you have direct deposit?" I was "no, no job." They were "oh." I was "I want to deposit $$$,$$$." They were "oh"

Jimmy Hoffa

hahaha

user55340

That lead to a very different conversation.

Jimmy Hoffa

I can only imagine. Considering the files some national agencies must have on you due to that interaction it's almost surprising you passed the background check for your current employer..

user41796

@MichaelT The CU's I've used tier their customers too. Usually it's a combination of assets + loans at the bank. Response levels at the top tier can be quite pleasant. :-)

user55340

8:19 PM

I've had that experience. There is an advertisement about it somewhere.

user55340

But yea... Big difference between sitting down with a banker and talking to a teller.

user55340

8:34 PM

Militarizing Your Backyard with Python: Computer Vision and the Squirrel Hordes

►

user55340

For all those image recognition in Python questions we've gotten.

Jimmy Hoffa

I think a sound understanding of the financial business is altogether valuable and something kids should be taught. What the people in banks do - what their roles are etc. An overall understanding of the banking and financing system is far more complex and touches on much more advanced economic mechanics that can be much less attainable to everyone. But understanding a teller vs. banker vs. loan officer vs. title clerk to the point of what services banks provide and how to utilize them

and who to talk to for different services I think would provide a great value to people at large

user41796

@MichaelT I may now be willing to learn python

Jimmy Hoffa

Lots of X/Y problems occur where someone wants X, but tries to ask a bank for Y because they don't really know what banks offer and what is required for their services etc

user55340

The dmv (that epitome of efficiency) often has an xy problem identifier. Tells you which line to stand in.

user55340

8:38 PM

I broke one once. Had three interrelated tasks with title transfer.

Jimmy Hoffa

exactly; banks have some of that to an extent but really a lot about the actual services and roles in banks are pretty opaque to most

user55340

Need to transfer title of A from 1 to 2. Needed to register B in state. Need to transfer title of B from 2 to 1.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:08 PM

woot. I am very pleased with my JavaScript modules system, so much easier and less complex than all those require blarghy blargh junkets. Or angular. as @psr noted, all the available module/DI systems for JavaScript out there are mega-stinkers

psr

9:27 PM

@JimmyHoffa Write a unit test for an angular controller that uses a lot of angular services sometime so you can really appreciate the module system.

Thomas Owens

Have any of you guys read Disciplined Agile Delivery yet?

user41796

Not yet. On my wish list currently

psr

9:43 PM

@ThomasOwens I looked at the Amazon preview thing and it mentioned "delighted stakeholders" so I dismissed it on the grounds of marketing buzzwords.

Thomas Owens

@psr False. It's more than marketing buzzwords.

psr

@ThomasOwens But it contains marketing buzzwords.

Thomas Owens

@psr Not really.

I'm not sure that phrase appears anywhere in the book.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa So I'm not going to get a better rate going to a CU?

psr

@ThomasOwens page 21

Thomas Owens

9:47 PM

@psr Oh. OK. It's in reference to how people feel at the end of a project.

That's...totally not a marketing buzzword.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt depends but unlikely. Remember a massive bank takes advantage of efficiencys of scale unavailable to a CU. Plus banks have other pieces to their business a CU isn't classed for regarding risk classes as well as instruments and markets they can participate in.

Thomas Owens

Anyway, I'm out. Time to go home. Good night, all.

Ampt

We also need to look at first time homebuyers programs

pretty sure there are some good deals ther

Jimmy Hoffa

CU's aren't going to bundle it's investments into strategized risk instruments for instance

CU's are hardly players in liquidity markets if at all

psr

hbr.org/2010/07/stop-trying-to-delight-your-customers

Aaron Hall

9:54 PM

duh, everyone knows you can't delight your customers. :)

Hey, I submitted a bug to the Python bug tracker, any suggestions for getting a warm welcome?

Ampt

@AaronHall "YOUR CODE R T3H SUXXORZ NOOBS"

alternatively: "This is why ruby is so much better than Python. It doesn't have silly bugs like this"

Aaron Hall

oh, you read my bug report then?

Ampt

alternatively: Ask for braces

amon

10:11 PM

@Ampt from __future__ import braces

Ampt

@amon as if every java dev in python hasn't already tried this

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt well color me stupid; perhaps I'm mistaken. I haven't looked at all of this in ages, but apparently CU's provide typically better rates according to this

Ampt

4% for a fixed still seems a little high though, no?

or am I totally off base?

I just wrote down all the stuff we want to do this year. (Marriage, house, move jobs). Holy shit it's day 13 and I'm already behind.

user20683

Breathe

Ampt

NOTIMEFORBREATHINGORSPACESAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

user20683

10:24 PM

Uh huh

user15026

@Ampt Oh man, don't even get me started.

Ampt

How was Canadia btw?

user20683

Snuggly

Ampt

@AshleyNunn so this is why World Engineer is already primed for my freakout?

user20683

Also less cold than I expected

user15026

10:25 PM

@WorldEngineer I swear winter waited nicely for you to leave.

user15026

It's cold now.

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer good timing. My wife just touched down in Chicago today to a balmy 12 degrees.

user15026

@Ampt He's been with me long enough, he's good at handling OMG THINGS THINGS NEED TO BE DONE YESTERDAY OH MAN HELP WHAT EVEN IS THIS.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt you in the office today? You should make your way to snarfs. Because yum.

It's frankly a travesty that you haven't invested the effort to go get some of that yet; don't know what you're missing out on. (best sammich ever)

user20683

@Ampt I tend to be irritatingly level headed

Jimmy Hoffa

10:27 PM

@WorldEngineer that just means you bury the bodies where nobody can see them

psr

@JimmyHoffa said Jimmy Hoffa

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I should know

user20683

@JimmyHoffa My neuroses approach ninja like levels of subtlety

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer that's called dissociating; subtlety is a different thing.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa we are the conglomerate, all your whiskey are belong to use, you are on your way to sobriety

Jimmy Hoffa

10:31 PM

@WorldEngineer I knew it! You've been broken by those non-american heirophants! You'll never take my whiskey, heathen!

user41796

@WorldEngineer I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment

amon

For my last answer, I'd like to thank @MichaelT for listing in his profile the book “Quality Code”, which reads like the author's first attempt at writing a book (it is), but actually contains solid advice.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I think I'm having a panic attack right now. I'm going to just grab my bottle and hide in my crawl space until the bad thoughts go away. Evil SE mods!

psr

@JimmyHoffa good point

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Nah, I think most of the SE mods are in favor of more whiskeys, not less.

user20683

10:35 PM

Or gin

user20683

Or grapefruit vodka

user41796

Or ... yes.

user15026

@WorldEngineer That's a thing? I think I would like that thing.

durron597

soooooooo does anyone have experience with a bug that makes a webpage work in the corp network only but not in prod?

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 tons? There are so many ways for that to happen..

First check for that above all others, CORS

durron597

10:39 PM

@JimmyHoffa how do you test for that? gamma environments are typically in corp

oh, we've already fixed the issue, the problem is writing defensive tests around this category of issue

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 by having properly setup test environments that appropriately mirror all aspects of production :/

(which is rare, but really it's the solution)

@durron597 if you can't get a correct mirroring of the prod server for the test server - you can attempt to create a test client that mimics the relationship of a production client to the prod server, if the problem lies in the relation between client and server. Create a VM for testing from that is in a separate domain

durron597

@JimmyHoffa you just gave me an idea, hmm

user15026

The door to the outside that is close to my office is not sealed well, I am extra cold today :(

Jimmy Hoffa

@AshleyNunn floor-gap? Get a bath towel and roll it up and stuff it against the gap.

durron597

what if we have a url parameter that tells the code to act as if the code were external

Jimmy Hoffa

10:43 PM

We do that for our garage door because I'm too lazy to buy proper weather stripping or whatever it'll take to fix the .5" gap there.

@durron597 do not release test-case style code to production. Don't even put it in the same libraries. Do exactly what you described only in the event that it's in a separate library that perhaps inherits from the main one extending it with said parameter. I've seen debug stuff like that released to production and causing weird hard-to-trade cases too often

20

A: #if DEBUG vs. Conditional("DEBUG")

I'm sure plenty will disagree with me, but having spent time as a build guy constantly hearing "But it works on my machine!", I take the standpoint that you should pretty much never use either. If you really need something for testing and debugging, figure out a way to make that testability seper...

user55340

@DVK - VTC reason = "This post contains references to the Star Wars: Holiday Special". — Richard 7 hours ago

user15026

@JimmyHoffa I think it's all the seals on the door, but I might try that to see if it just at least helps somewhat.

durron597

@JimmyHoffa we have the ability in many cases to turn various widgets on and off with url parameters (which, ironically, only work on the internal corporate network)

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 if that's expected use for production great, if it's dev-kludgery that ends up in production, it's a ticking bug bomb..

user55340

@amon yes, you are correct. That is the author's first book.

user55340

10:50 PM

He does have a few white papers floating around. But those tend to lack a cover or be more than a few pages long if printed.

user55340

vance.com/publications

amon

@MichaelT haha, 404 because JavaScript and history API abuse…

someone didn't test their website!

Jimmy Hoffa

@amon was it me? I swear I tested it... :( some day I'll get this testing thing right..

user15026

11:28 PM

@Ampt So I am reading the first Parasitology book by Mira Grant and so far I am not loving it as much as the Newsflesh books. Going to give it the first book to hook me, but I am wary.

MetaFight

Drive by jazzing

Wynton Marsalis Jam w. Mark O'Connor, Jonathan Batiste, Frank Vignola

►

gotta go ttyl.

Aaron Hall

11:59 PM

Hey what's up?

No comments so far on my bug report. :)

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