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user114359
5:01 PM
Given they were doing mainframe COBOL work it sucked, but the employer gave them plenty of perks, too, to make up for it. Like extra vacation time.
 
user114359
Didn't mean to delete that: I used to work with guys making USD$200k per year in one of the cheapest places to live in the USA. So in a place like NYC or SF they would be making twice that.
 
user114359
@GlenH7 there is something to be said for a person who gets the job done, no matter how dirty the job is.
 
It certainly offsets the other times when I pull a prima donna fit. :-D
 
user114359
Maybe it's just the military man in me talking, but I've done my fair share of crawling around in the mud -- literally and figuratively.
 
How would working in mainframe support effect/further your career, though? If there's such little room for innovation and it "sucks the soul out of you" (as the community wiki page said), it seems like money is really the only thing you'd get out of it
(which, I guess, isn't so bad if money is all you want)
 
5:05 PM
The literal bit, I can't tolerate as much anymore. The figurative bit, I can still deal with
@daOnlyBG z/OS is one of the most elegant, sophisticated, and secure operating systems I've ever seen
Those whinging about it "sucking the soul out of you" ought to consider opening their eyes up and looking at the opportunity around them
 
[shrug] okie
 
user114359
@daOnlyBG don't get into mainframes unless you can finagle a job where you only do it part-time, so you get the perks but also keep your "modern" skills sharp.
 
**ok
 
Only OS I know of with non-pre-emptive threading. Which makes hunting down race conditions a hell of a lot easier.
 
user114359
The point is, the world is not full of smart phone apps and web apps, there is a lot of other software out there.
 
5:07 PM
Right, I get that
 
user114359
There is a lot of money to be made outside of the app store
 
@Snowman Most shops are running multiple environments within their mainframe and you'll see quite a bit of the "more modern" stuff in those environments
 
yet the industry is still relatively uncompetitive, right?
**that specific industry
 
@daOnlyBG Depends upon your locale and business sector
Finance and insurance use a lot of in-house mainframe apps because of security and transactional speed
 
THat figures
***That
 
5:09 PM
There is an argument to be made about those industries not being competitive, but I don't think that's the level of nuance you were going after
 
@GlenH7 Yeah, I'm just asking in general terms
 
back end supply chains used to use a lot of mainframe, but have downsized in some cases due to overhead costs with mainframes and getting "good enough" transactional speed on other platforms
 
user114359
@GlenH7 right, the place I worked with those mainframe guys we had a mainframe in the back-end but a web app up front where I worked
 
I work in the pharmaceutical industry; I'm not entirely certain if my company still uses them
 
user114359
@GlenH7 I have done work in inventory management and logistics: Oracle is huge there now.
 
user114359
5:11 PM
Everyone things of Oracle as the database, but they do so much more than that.
 
@daOnlyBG Some, yes, but mostly on the claims side. R&D side, not so much. Supply chain, quite possibly
@Snowman Oracle has a really good sales team. :-)
 
Haha, the guy 2 cubes down from me works in the supply chain division
I should ask
 
user114359
@GlenH7 That too. And if people think Microsoft are bad with their vendor lock-in, Oracle are ten times worse
 
So most mainframe systems are written in COBOL and C?
 
user114359
COBOL, JCL
 
5:13 PM
@daOnlyBG Not necessarily
Depends upon the age of the program
 
user114359
Modern mainframes can do pretty much anything a microcomputer can do, such as Java and .NET
 
and probably the program's make
 
user114359
But realistically, the majority of mainframe programs are COBOL and JCL
 
@Snowman and sometimes they do it better. :-)
 
user114359
@GlenH7 Most people's minds would be blown... hot swap a CPU? What?
 
5:14 PM
I kinda miss working on an as/400 (iSeries).
 
so with sufficient C#/.NET and COBOL skills, one should be able to find a position somewhere in the country for mainframe maintenance/development, right?
 
@Snowman Sure! Why not when the quest is for 4 9's or more
@daOnlyBG potentially
 
user114359
I read an article a few years ago about all the "revolutionary" tech coming to desktop and server microcomputers, and how it mostly originated on mainframes
 
Jean Anstett on October 6, 2015
This summer, Stack Overflow together with a host of NYC-based tech companies, created Beyond Coding, a 10 week program for emerging developers and designers. We sought to guide students through the finer points of professional 'soft' skills in order to help lose lacking experience gain a foothold in the technical job market.
 
5:30 PM
Alright everyone, my lunch break is over; thanks again for helping me out
see ya!
 
yw
 
user114359
adios
 
ooh, i'm in page one of HNQ
yay questions that get 6 answers that are all mostly the same. i knew it was too broad
 
Congrats?
 
@GlenH7 Thank you?
 
@GlenH7 that would get declined on SO.
NAA would get helpful.
But, I'll trust your judgement
 
Thank the gods we're not SO
 
user114359
I can't flag anymore
 
... looking at the page, it is entirely marketing material and sys nothing about how AOT actually works. — MichaelT 1 hour ago
 
user114359
Despite my recent ones all being helpful, there are a few VLQ that moderators declined
 
user114359
5:41 PM
I blame gnat for this. I don't know where I read it, but he advocated VLQ flags for garbage answers
 
It's spam since it's there to promote a service without statement of affiliation and doesn't even answer the question
@Snowman I got hit with a few NAAs being declined during the big Late Answer review change
 
@Snowman I never flag anything VLQ anymore
 
So I have a nastygram on my flag dialog to the effect of "go review your old flags"
> Dear System, 3 declined flags against thousands of helpful flags should tell you something...
 
user114359
If I were a mod I'd take out the trash, whether it is technically appropriate or not. And I'd be up front about it during elections, so there would be no surprises.
 
77
Q: The Very Low Quality flag is broken

bjb568NAA is for answers that don't make any attempt to answer the question: asdfjhaklsefuh I like cows Thanks! Did you find the solution? Sometimes link-only answers, but not all moderators agree VLQ is for posts that are: Very low quality (no, that's downvote). Have severe formatting or content...

@GlenH7 It only looks at the most recent week.
I have the warning on SO right now because I had 14 flags pending, all of which were custom flags
during and after those 14 flags, I had literally thousands of helpful flags
Then, I stopped flagging because I got busy and tired of it
 
5:46 PM
@Snowman The problem there is it requires you to be able to make a determination about the technical accuracy of the answer. Given the breadth of a site's scope, that's too much to expect from mods
 
Then, some of those old 14 flags were declined.
 
@durron597 I hear the last guy that raised thousands of flags like that was given a diamond so they wouldn't have to deal with his flagging anymore. :-)
 
user114359
@GlenH7 I am not talking about honest answers that are inaccurate, but literal garbage that I flagged that my children could identify as crap and the flags got declined.
 
I got close to 3000 helpful flags from Aug 1 to Sept 22 o.O
 
Yeah, those ought to be nuked
 
5:48 PM
@Snowman link?
 
But the way SO mods handle things is different than how most other sites are handled
The sheer volume of SO forces that difference
 
Current SO flag queue:
745 × Other
326 × AnswerNotAnAnswer
252 × PostLowQuality
204 × ReviewLowQualityDisputedAuto (LooksGoodButManyDeleteVotes)
73 × AnswerDuplicateAnswerAuto
41 × ReviewLowQualityDisputedAuto (HighScorePostWithDeleteVotes)
41 × PostTooManyEditsByOwnerAuto
38 × PostExcessivelyLongAuto
17 × PostTooManyCommentsAuto
10 × PostVandalismDeletionsAuto
5 × QuestionTooManyAnswersPostedForAllTimeAuto
4 × ReviewLowQualityDisputedAuto (PostUndeletedByAuthor)
2 × PostRollbackWarAuto
1 × QuestionTooManyAnswersPostedRecentlyAuto
 
@Shog9 Hi!
 
Lo!
 
Only one spam post?!
 
5:50 PM
priorities, man
 
@Shog9 This room has already settled that question -- Scotch! is the answer
 
bourbon, infidel
 
@Shog9 They're cousins, you know
 
@Shog9 I still have 9 pending flags on SO that are probably all two weeks old or longer. I can't find them in my flag history without wanting to jump out a window
 
For the record, I do happen to enjoy quite a few bourbons.
 
5:51 PM
I hoped that by stopping my relentless onslaught of 600 NAA flags per week might get them handled, but it didn't work
 
@GlenH7 yeah, but also siblings and perhaps something of a parent-child thing too... that family tree has too many cycles.
 
It really is interesting to see how the various whiskey branches have been created and intertwined
At some point, I'd like to see what the Japanese have been doing with their line of whiskeys
 
that reminds me, @jmac should totally bring some Japanese whisky with him when he visits
 
(I'm ignoring the various arguments about whiskey and bourbon. Grant that bourbon is a sub-class of the broader whiskey categorization)
ding! Might as well put those business trips to work
 
@Shog9 s/whiskey/good-booze/ ugh when did we take that out of the room topics?
 
5:53 PM
I need user feedback. There are no users available now.
 
I guess we replaced it with
 
I'm fortunate to have a few local distilleries that have been experimenting with various whiskey recipes
@durron597 You're a room owner, switch it back to
 
room topic changed to The Whiteboard: General Discussion for programmers.stackexchange.com Pants optional when telecommuting. [coffee-day] [facedesk] [good-booze] [horror-stories] [monads] [my-code-is-compiling] [parsing-errors] [scotch] [the-other-monitor]
both are current room topics.
 
Priorities must be properly established
 
> NAA: Other answers like this one contain the small amount of actual information this answer contains beyond the link. - durron597
 
5:56 PM
Well, usually the discussion is about scotch, but sometimes it's about bitters or in this case bourbon
 
bitters !== bourbon
 
@Shog9 Someone told me to custom flag if there's any doubt whatsoever. I can't remember who but it was probably a Stack Exchange CM.
 
was laughing at the prefix
 
I think this question might be a better fit at Programmers.SE, though it's certainly not a bad fit here. — R_Kapp 49 secs ago
 
> This question has many terrible answers that could benefit from moderator attention, there's the NAA I flagged a different answer with that was posted 3 minutes ago but then I looked at the question and saw just how many link only / otherwise bad answers there are.
28 answers, newest > 6 months old... That's the sorta flag that'll tend to languish
 
5:59 PM
@Shog9 We need a "hit this with a low-grade tactical nuclear warhead, please" flag reason
 
For the peanut gallery, the first one is this answer:
> Here is a tutorial for setting up Python with IIS by using Django.

Recall that Django is a web application framework and IIS is the web server.
And THAT one was flagged 10 minutes after the answer was posted.
@Shog9 gimme a diamond and I'll do it myself :D
 
6 months on a flag? Wow.
 
@GlenH7 meh; I just reviewed all 0-score answers and declined.
 
I was speaking about the general case (in jest), not the specific example.
 
@GlenH7 no, what happened on that one was that someone posted an late answer NAA and then, after flagging, i realized how crappy the other answers were
 
6:01 PM
It's almost like crap answers attract other crap answers... :-)
 
0
A: Force CloudFront distribution/file update

webjayThere's also clearcf, which I made for pages hosted at GitHub.

@Shog9 The -3 answers didn't do it for you, huh?
> You can just use this online tool here: swook.net/p/cloudfront-invalidator.html
 
@durron597 I'm trying to calculate just how short of a half-life that question would have here on Progs...
 
@durron597 what -3 answer?
 
-3
A: Force CloudFront distribution/file update

MartinI think i found the answer here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1086240/updateing-files-on-amazons-cdn With other words: It's impossible. That makes me wonder how are you guys using cloudfront? When I deploy my apps i want't to upload all static files to s3. With s3 that works fine but bea...

-3
A: Force CloudFront distribution/file update

BenThe various caches can take up to 24 hours to clear, and cloudfront does not honor query strings, so there isn't really anyway to force the cache to expire prematurely inside a single distribution. A couple helpful notes: Consider publishing a new cloudfront distribution every time you update ...

 
wrong user
oh, you bastard
you flagged an answer and wrote about the question
I assumed you were flagging because the author was writing crap
 
6:04 PM
@Shog9 You're not used to this behavior in here?
 
> This question has many terrible answers
 
yeah, yeah
 
@durron597 woah, woah, woah now. You don't actually expect mods to read custom flags completely do you?
 
hola
 
delete all the things
 
6:05 PM
Next time flag the answers.
 
Write your custom flag message as if it's some poor mod who hasn't had enough coffee yet and is checking flags while waiting for the coffee to be ready
 
I deleted one, and it wasn't even the answer you flagged
 
All of the answers? I was explicitly told to stop flagging old answers so much
 
If I've learned anything from my diamond, it's that.
 
@durron597 yeah, but flagging the wrong answer isn't an improvement!
 
6:06 PM
The answer I flagged is link only!
 
no, it's not
 
> There's also clearcf, which I made for pages hosted at GitHub.
How is that an answer??
 
I should write some sort of a guide for identifying link-only answers
 
Some dude linking to a tool with no explanation of anything at all
 
the tl;dr would be, "contains no information beyond a link"
 
6:07 PM
enderland doesn't want to get on the UX soapbox again :P
 
user114359
Declined flag. Looks like spam, impossible to read, utter crap: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/106527/…
 
@Shog9 You'd think you would have done that by now....
 
@GlenH7 I think I'll just keep ranting for a few years
maybe eat some apples
 
@Snowman Gone. But don't be screaming mod abuse
 
@Shog9 I prefer to eat signs pointing to where apples are located while rescuing Princess Peach
 
user114359
6:08 PM
Another declined flag, does not answer the question, spam: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/144361/…
 
@Shog9 Gives you something to do, amirite?
 
job security
 
user114359
Another declined flag. Link-only, possible spam, does not answer the question: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/120308/…
 
@Snowman That answer is crap but it is not flaggable.
 
@Snowman on the plus side, I have a delete vote to throw at that question
 
6:09 PM
In this case I agree the one answer is not a link only answer, but it still is pretty questionable quality - handling those types of questions with flags is the contentious thing here
 
maybe we should add a new flag to the dialog, call it "this answer is mostly, but not entirely, a link"
Then immediately decline it
 
At least that 1) discloses author's affiliation and 2) explains anything at all about the link
 
@Snowman The right answer is to delete the whole question
 
user114359
Thing of it is I would vote to delete the answers but I can't
 
@Snowman and there goes my last one
 
6:09 PM
this one is link only - http://stackoverflow.com/a/9774590/1048539
this one is not imo - http://stackoverflow.com/a/14341112/1048539
 
@Shog9 The fact that the dude says that you can use his tool on github pages is not explanation
 
user114359
@GlenH7 Some of those questions should be deleted
 
@durron597 he also gives the name and a brief description of its purpose
 
you can also use the information in the answer if the link breaks
 
user114359
My point is regardless of whether by the letter of the law those flags are valid, the answers are utter crap and should be deleted. Time and time again the issue comes up and we are left with insufficient recourse to curate the content ourselves.
 
6:11 PM
@enderland Exactly. The answer is useless if the link breaks, except that maybe someone could google the name of the library that he doesn't explain how to use or what it does
Whatever, I have 20k now, I've voted to delete them all
 
and this is why SO mods tend to take a hard line with this
 
user55340
@Snowman one more on that second question.
 
Once you start down that slippery slope, you find yourself having to make thousands of hard decisions about topics you know nothing about.
And mistakes multiply
 
user55340
@GlenH7 blam.
 
6:12 PM
Outside of blatantly bad, it's better to leave it to folks who actually know something about the answers.
 
@Shog9 Some of my chats with the SO mods in the TL have been eye opening in that regards. Such a world of difference between moderating a high volume site like SO and any of the other sites
 
user114359
@MichaelT I am out of both types of votes until 24:00 UTC
 
user55340
@Snowman need 40k rep.
 
user114359
Programmers is lower volume, but we have fewer active members who can VTC/VTD too.
 
user55340
Now, if I could get some close votes refunded from deleted questions today...
 
6:14 PM
@Snowman Our VTC audience continues to grow. VTD audience could still use more help
 
user114359
@MichaelT Good luck with that. You requested that feature a year ago and clearly it is not a priority.
 
@MichaelT Or just get more close votes for the site... :-P
 
user55340
@GlenH7 at current rates, I would be getting 1.25x close votes if they got refunded.
 
So you're trying to say I'm greedy for wanting 2x close votes?
 
user55340
Yesterday was nine same day deletes on my close votes.
 
6:17 PM
you just need a gold badge in "career-develoopment" and then create a one-career-dev-to-rule-them-all post that you can just all share in auto dup closing :)
 
user55340
Anyways... This room needs more blue names.
 
user55340
Gah... 200 answers in that.
 
user55340
I still want to see how close I am to a random tag badge.
 
@Shog9 Thank you for handling those :)
 
np
hope you're not flag-banned now...
 
user55340
6:19 PM
3
Q: I can't track the random badge

MichaelTI am the all time top answerer in random (89 points on 11 answers). I keep looking forward to getting a tag badge in it. I can track C, version-control, database, math, git, history, open-source, and a whole host of other badges. Yet, when I filter to 'ran', I don't see it. Typing in 'r...

 
becoming flag banned could be SE's way of telling people, "go outside" ?
 
"could be"...
I like the idea of putting "it's a beautiful day, go climb a tree!" somewhere in the copy...
2
 
Nope, I'm flagged warned but I was flagged warned previously as well, so no change there
 
user55340
I'll chalk it up to a random bug.
 
I'll go flag a few NAAs to make sure I don't get banned
 
6:20 PM
@durron597 If you really want to get banned, I bet there's someone in this room who could make sure that happens....
 
user55340
@Shog9 and on outdoors.se add "really, we mean it."
 
and gardening and especially Fitness
maybe not Bicycles
had two dogs trying to climb a ladder yesterday; I'd expect roughly the same results
 
user55340
The day star! It burns us. Must go and work for Amazon. Or Microsoft.
 
0
A: Ahead of Time (AOT) Compilation of Clojure Libraries in Maven

S. MayolAOT Compilation for Java 8 is here, visit the link bellow: AOT Compilation Has Come to Java 8

 
@durron597 We'll see if my spam flag gets declined or not
It was an unregistered account that had posted that link on Progs
 
6:27 PM
@GlenH7 I NAA flagged. We'll see.
 
@Shog9 that should be a random activity after someone posts 10 answers/day for a week straight or does a review queue max for a week straight
 
user55340
Put it on SO that the review queue occasionally tosses in a page flicker subliminal message "go outside" and see how long it takes for a big to get filed on mso.
 
@durron597 I don't think that'll get validated, since I am not really sure if the post answers the question itself
though reading the link, it looks like a spam link, not an answer
 
@Shog9 Have you thought about a possibility of a state beyond closure that is not deletion or historical locking? Perhaps 10k+ can vote to "freeze" a closed question that 1) Prevents new answers from being added, 2) Denies all users with 10k rep or below from editing or suggesting an edit, 3) puts a big banner on the question saying that it is not an example of a good, well written question, 4) Prevents users from casting delete votes on it
This would allow high view, high score off topic questions to be curated but would prevent all the badness that comes from not deleting these questions
 
user114359
@durron597 I approve of your suggestion
 
user114359
6:32 PM
(my approval is worthless, however)
 
@durron597 why not just use a lock for this? a moderator can just go through and curate/delete bad answers on a decent question that fits this criteria
 
@durron597 I have been kicking around similar thoughts. There are some presumptions behind Jeff's old post on the matter, where I think the assumptions are just invalid
 
@enderland Ugh, please don't make me have this argument again
 
@GlenH7 I was part of it :P
 
@durron597 read this entire discussion, then present your argument:
-3
Q: Why were some historical non-constructive questions undeleted?

GillesI notice that What is the single most influential book every programmer should read? and Strangest language feature have been undeleted by a Stack Exchange developer. After long months of framing these pieces of garbage, the Stack Overflow community, with the help of moderators, had finally mana...

 
6:33 PM
My main objection to that is that I don't want to add work to moderators, work that can be done by the community
 
@durron597 you wouldn't care if those questions just end up deleted right?
 
waffles
 
Contentious voting on that one...
 
user114359
@enderland curation is not a one-time action, nor should it be done only by moderators. See previous comments about how moderators are not necessarily subject matter experts on any particular topic.
 
@Shog9 What's the appropriate means for the discussion? Meta Progs? MSE? Chat?
 
6:34 PM
@GlenH7 which discussion?
 
About the equivalence of VTC === VTD, and whether all closed questions ought to be deleted
Michael's Meta Progs discussion about Roberts re-opening triggered some conversations about closing and deleting. And it's clear that how things are defined with respect to closing (and subsequent deleting) is not necessarily how a lot of users view that
 
@GlenH7 depends on how far out you want to zoom, I guess.
Are we looking at a question, a site, a network, or a philosophy?
 
@Shog9 I hadn't yet read that entire discussion, but I already made my argument here, and you answered it. I'm bringing it up again because of the recent MPSE trainwreck
 
Okay. Once I can get my thoughts into coherent form, I'll put something MetaProgs
I don't equate a VTC as a VTD, but I understand that perspective a bit better
 
@durron597 hey, don't be so hard on @MichaelT; the question's title was a bit baity, but I wouldn't say it was a "trainwreck"
 
user55340
6:38 PM
I was making sure it got clicked.
 
user114359
@MichaelT ah, clickbait!
 
user55340
Too much per site meta gets forgotten.
 
@Shog9 I measure trainwrecks by number of comments generated, of which that one is north of 40.
 
user55340
8
Q: What questions recently closed can be salvaged?

MichaelTWhen people ask about Programmers.SE being too negative, closing too many things, or needing to be more inclusive - the best way to approach this is probably to look at the questions that have been asked and put on hold in the past two days or so (the 100 most recent questions). possible lossy ...

 
user55340
Boring.
 
user114359
6:39 PM
@durron597 You want a real trainwreck? I remember a MSF post from earlier this year... not going to post a link and rip off that band-aid though ;-)
 
user55340
412
Q: Open letter to students with homework problems

MichaelTIt is September once again (today is the 7316th day of September), and once again students are asking their homework problems on Stack Overflow and Programmers.SE. We start seeing questions like: A car dealer has 10 salespersons. Each salesperson keeps track of the number of cars sold each m...

 
9
A: We could use better management of popular, but "bad" questions

Shog9Lemme see if I understand this... You have questions that don't fit the most strict interpretations of the current definition of a good question. These questions have answers that are valuable enough to others that you don't want to lose them. The questions aren't "dead": the answers are still ...

 
user55340
All time best.
 
I'm not sure I have much more to contribute than that ^
...oh look, that was also about Progse
BTW, I hate your slidy feed
 
user55340
@Shog9 use mobile. No feed.
 
6:40 PM
@Shog9 For the room's traffic, it tends to work best
 
@MichaelT I did that yesterday when we were all talking... A bit hard to keep up.
 
but how will you see the deluge of terribad questions???
@Shog9 you had that convo, on mobile? you are crazier than I thought
 
All good feeds appear inline, posted by an amusing avatar
 
user55340
All my activity 8-6 is mobile.
 
user55340
Seeing the content of newest questions makes us cry when we are out of close votes.
 
6:42 PM
@enderland hey, I was trying to keep dogs off of a ladder. They kept climbing, trying to turn around, and falling.
But enough about y'all
 
@Shog9 Too late. Apparently we've fallen and can't get up.
 
user114359
@Shog9 try cats, they climb better.
 
@Snowman Cats aren't much better at getting down than dogs are.
 
user55340
@Shog9 ask @JimmyHoffa about his desktop video.
 
I love watching a good desktop. Hope it's maple
 
6:45 PM
@Shog9 I don't think that mod of ours has made any desktop videos, but I could be wrong.
 
user55340
@Shog9 cats jumping in and out of boxes.
 
@GlenH7 to be clear, they're not equivalent. Being tried for murder isn't the same as being executed - but as a juror, if you're uncomfortable with the latter you might alter your verdict.
 
user55340
-1
Q: How to give values in HashMap?

user306128in below values how to declare in HashMap, anyone give solution for this. (1,2)=17; (1,4)= 31; (1,4)=29; (1,4)=13; (1,6)=7; (2,8)=3; like that in (9,1) = 4;

 
user55340
crying
 
user55340
See? Bad idea.
 
6:47 PM
@Shog9 Ideally a person uncomfortable with making that verdict if it's the correct one for the law in that venue should never have been selected to be a juror.
 
@MichaelT aaand, blocked. Ironically, not blocked on SO (last rate-limited in July, apparently gave up on the site and went looking for greener pastures)
 
@Shog9 You mean you expect me to present a rationale and balanced argument backing my perspective instead of relying completely upon hyperbole? WUT?!
 
@durron597 ideally... for who? The prosecution, sure.
 
@Shog9 :( Too fast. He didn't get enough down votes.
 
FWIW, it's usually acceptable to alter your verdict if the death penalty is on the table.
 
6:48 PM
You need to wait long enough for the down votes and comments before you delete.
 
the problem with the jury example is that, at least in the USA, the media has as much of an influence over people as the actual evidence does
 
And to give the user a glimmer of hope. Before crushing their dreams at your feet. That's how we roll here.
 
unlike the hidden, secret life of questions on Stack Exchange sites
 
user114359
Then there are moral paradoxes: I joined the military, knowing it might have required taking another human life. Yet I am morally opposed to capital punishment.
 
@Shog9 there's a sentencing phase as well, you can vote "yes guilty, no death penalty"
 
6:49 PM
/posts/42
 
user55340
30k power suggestion: rub it in. Cast additional down votes on deleted questions.
2
 
jurors are supposed to hear the evidence and then give the correct verdict based on the law and their view of the facts. they are not supposed to have political arguments about whether the death penalty is just
 
user114359
@durron597 normally a judge sentences, not the jury. Although the jury knows what sentences may be incurred by a guilty verdict on a given charge.
 
26
Q: Please let me kick a bad post when it's down

Monica CellioOn sites where I either have 10k rep or am a moderator, I'll sometimes see a clearly-bad post -- incoherent, not even remotely an answer, etc -- that's already been deleted. So yay for the immediate problem being fixed, but not all deleted posts get downvoted first, and sometimes deleted posts g...

 
that's why the judge tends to go through a training phase (jury instructions) with most (all?) juries.
 
6:51 PM
@durron597 you're asking the impossible. Regardless of your politics, "beyond a reasonable doubt" starts to become weak sauce for a lot of folks when death is on the table.
 
@Snowman That's probably state by state
 
In CO at least, you're informed up-front (during jury selection) if death penalty is an option
 
user114359
@durron597 capital punishment is only at the state level, except for crimes of treason and sedition which are mentioned by name in the U.S. Constitution.
 
@Shog9 Status-Complete the hell out of this.
 
aaaanyway, I probably should've picked a better analogy
 
6:53 PM
@Shog9 In many (most?) states with the death penalty, there are several other steps after the guilty verdict comes down. Source
 
user114359
@Shog9 preferably an analogy comparing puppies and kittens
 
@durron597 this doesn't weaken my analogy at all, but I still should've picked a different one
@Snowman you shouldn't buy a puppy unless you'll be comfortable owning a dog?
 
"Not ALL puppies become dogs" -> "Not ALL closed questions get deleted"
 
user114359
There you go, that's better
 
6:55 PM
I'm going with pure hyperbole then....
 
user114359
anyone who argues with puppies and kittens is evil, pure evil.
 
yeah. Now we're talking about drowning puppies as an equivalent to not delete-voting. Thanks, @Snowman.
 
user55340
Chihuahuas never become dogs.
 
I dispute the notion that Chihuahuas are ever really puppies
 
user114359
@Shog9 I didn't say anything about drowning puppies...
 
6:57 PM
Clearly you were thinking it
Shame on you
 
user114359
@MichaelT Chihuahuas cannot become dogs, because they are rodents.
 
you heard it here, folks: every time you fail to delete a closed question, Snowman kills a puppy.
5
poor puppies
 
user55340
 
user114359
Haven't you guys seen Monsters, Inc.? I prefer "The Adorable Snowman"
 

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