The Whiteboard

7:00 PM

I operate on trees?

that's going on the CV.

I have less disdain than I used to for people capable of pooping out a mobile app after reading some tutorials. I've worked with/interviewed too many that were not even capable of that.

user41796

@Telastyn That's true. I just happen to be cleaning up some atrocious code "written" by someone who didn't know what they were doing

user41796

When I only want futures and you return a current value, you've failed the requirements. Just saying.

Telastyn

my condolences.

MetaFight

lol @ pooping out a mobile app.

user41796

7:06 PM

It's ... frustrating. Fortunately, the person isn't on our team anymore. And this is the last major section of code they wrote. It sucks that I had to clean up the other major section of code they wrote too.

durron597

@GlenH7 Ballpark value on average lines of code per method?

Telastyn

that is frustrating. at least they're no longer employed by you.

user41796

@durron597 negative value

Telastyn

I have someone I have to clean up after, but they're still employed and have a higher position than I do.

user41796

The entire time that person was on the team, they were a net load on us and drug down productivity

Telastyn

7:10 PM

at least this guy is only sometimes in need of cleanup, last job was far worse in that regard.

people suck.

user41796

That includes a longer-than-normal ramp up time, and just a load of pure schlock that the person wrote.

MetaFight

@Telastyn I was once "given" a developer to help me reach a project deadline. I told the project manager this person's contributions would be a net negative. For the next 9 months I spent hours each day helping the dev write code and hours in the evening redoing their work. Good times.

durron597

@GlenH7 Ballpark AMOUNT of lines per code per method?

user41796

@durron597 Sorry, I got stuck on value

Robert Harvey

0

Q: Pathfinding in a 3d world with obstacles?

What are some methods for pathfinding in a 3d world? Object X needs to move from Point A to Point B but it might have to avoid things like asteroids, planets or gas pockets that makes the object slower. The program uses an octtree and is not "tile" or "grid" based.

durron597

7:12 PM

@MetaFight I would have documented the time spent every day for a month, then made pretty excel graphs and showed it to the project manager.

Robert Harvey

^^ -- This question is the equivalent of icanhazcodez on Stack Overflow. Do we just summarily close these, or would the site benefit from a decent, comprehensive answer?

durron597

@RobertHarvey Well, I just spent my last close vote on it, that tells you what I think of it.

user41796

@durron597 It varied. Generally in mid double digits. Biggest issue was that class constructs didn't even come close to respecting the domain and failed to respect the basics of SOLID principles.

Telastyn

@MetaFight - I had a developer like that once. I assigned them some non-critical bullshit work until I could get them fired.

user41796

@RobertHarvey burn with prejudice

MetaFight

7:14 PM

@durron597 Oh, everyone knew it was happening. I didn't need proof. They just didn't have the heart to fire the guy... so they dumped the problem on me and the project.

durron597

@MetaFight So show the proof to someone who had profit sharing incentives.

user41796

@durron597 Remember that there are significantly different cultural norms for his locale

MetaFight

@Telastyn That's what I did the second and third time it happened to me. I assigned the two developers do some research. As a starting point I gave then an MSDN article. Two weeks later both developers, working in isolation, sent me word documents with the very same MSDN article pasted in it.

Telastyn

facepalm

durron597

@MetaFight That's hilarious.

MetaFight

7:16 PM

yeah, I couldn't help but laugh.

Telastyn

see, that's why I insist on interviewing people

at least then I have nobody to blame but myself.

Robert Harvey

These were folks that were hired without being interviewed?

MetaFight

They were interviewed, but by somebody who didn't know what they were doing.

Telastyn

mine was hired before I got there.

MetaFight

And, again, instead of firing them when it became obvious they were worthless, the manager just moved them from project to project.

Telastyn

7:18 PM

but I find that others have faaaaaaar lower standard for what a competent developer looks like.

enderland

lol

Robert Harvey

That reminds me of a question I wanted to ask. How do you guys prepare for interviews? Let's say the coding screen is out of the way, and you did well. What do you do to bone up for the next one?

Telastyn

nothing.

MetaFight

This is in Formula 1, where we're supposed to be "efficient machines."

Telastyn

I might look at glassdoor to get targeted questions about their workplace culture.

enderland

7:19 PM

Firing employees is very difficult in most companies

user41796

@RobertHarvey Definitely study up on the company some more, so you can ask more detailed questions during the interview.

Robert Harvey

@enderland Some more so than others. It's difficult to fire someone in direct proportion to how worried the company is about the legal ramifications.

user41796

Later rounds tend to be more of the softer stuff, which is where behavioral based interviewing tends to come out. Start thinking through safe war stories that can be shared to highlight your abilities

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey What Glen said imo. There's not much else you could do.

Robert Harvey

OK.

Telastyn

7:23 PM

I might get a haircut if warranted

user41796

haircut; have clothes pressed; try to remember to shower that day...

Telastyn

shave

Robert Harvey

Sheesh. I didn't just emerge from a cave, y'know. :P

user41796

It's also a good time to reach out to 2nd and 3rd connections through LinkedIn to see what sort of recon you can do

Telastyn

well, some of us did.

:D

but I also don't get a lot of offers, so my advice might be poor.

I might be back up to 1:10 now.

Robert Harvey

7:27 PM

Is that your ratio of offers to applications? That seems respectable.

user41796

IMO, cultural fit becomes a big factor for later rounds of interviewing. They've determined you can likely do the job. Now they need to figure out if you can play nicely.

Telastyn

offers to interviews.

that's also probably interviews to applications now too.

cultural fit...

/me spits.

Robert Harvey

"Cultural fit" is just code for "Can you play well in our sandbox with others?"

Telastyn

"Cultural fit" is code for discriminatory practices.

Robert Harvey

Well, there's that too.

Ixrec

7:30 PM

I've yet to hear a convincing example of "not being a cultural fit" that wasn't just a euphemism for someone being mean or immoral or some other obviously unacceptable to everyone kind of thing

user41796

"Unfair discrimination" is a problem

user41796

But everyone makes discriminatory decisions. Please also note that discrimination really just means "to decide". But there's a whole lot of social context wrapped around that term

Telastyn

true

MetaFight

@GlenH7 I was about to point that out.

Telastyn

I just find that too many interviewers care about things that have no impact on ability to get shit done.

user41796

7:31 PM

If I discriminate against someone because of their color of hair, for example, that's completely unfair

Ixrec

people seem to use "discrimination" to mean "deciding whether to hire based on who someone is, not on what they can do or how they behave"

MetaFight

but that's the sort of comment that usually results in me being told to shutup.

user41796

I may not like blue haired people but it really shouldn't have an effect on ability to get along or do the job

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec Yes, and how many people are going to willfully admit that in an interview? Apparently, a significant percentage. I asked the college career counselor about their "diversity" interview question, and she said that there are people who will readily admit that they are racist.

Asking the question eliminates those people.

Telastyn

I read an article about that a month or two ago... let me see if I can find it

Ixrec

7:32 PM

@RobertHarvey I've read the DailyWTF, so I've heard of many such examples

user41796

But if I decide not to extend an offer because of some obnoxious affectation (which ultimately demonstrates low emotional intelligence) then I'm not as convinced that's unfair discrimination

Ixrec

this one in particular stunned me

user41796

"Cultural fit" is another way of ~~figuring out~~ guessing at if you're going to end up hating someone's guts after working with them for a few months.

user41796

For example - this persons code I'm cleaning up. If the team had gone out to lunch with that person, I think we would have seen a number of red flags that would have forewarned us of the cultural fit issues we ran into.

user41796

Their approach to coding (and life in general....) didn't align with how the team views the code.

Ixrec

7:37 PM

could you be more specific?

Telastyn

meh, if the person writes WTF code, you don't have a cultural fit problem. You have a WTF problem.

user41796

And to be fair to the recently departed (pun only) - that person had a difficult and frustrating time working with us. They chose to voluntarily leave. We weren't trying to chase them out, but they were very much unhappy in what they were doing. So there's a balancing act to that perspective

user41796

@Ixrec Nope. I'm staying intentionally vague in order to protect the recently departed's identity.

Robert Harvey

Did that person go through a code screening?

user41796

All I can present is my side of the story. It's unfair to them since they can't provide theirs.

user41796

7:39 PM

@RobertHarvey Yes, but we glom everything together in a batch of interviews. Probably something we need to revisit from a process perspective

user41796

And yes, some flags popped up during the screening. I have since modified my screening tests accordingly.

Robert Harvey

The first time I was asked to help hire someone, I didn't know about code screenings. This fellow said he'd written a hundred VB programs. What he didn't say was that they were all the same program with the same set of global variables, slightly modified for each task.

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