The Whiteboard

Ampt

00:05

@JimmyHoffa lets shoot some baddies. you know you want to!

Robert Harvey

My linked-in profile, in case anyone is interested in connecting.

linkedin.com/profile/view?id=34210520

Jimmy Hoffa

00:21

@psr yeah, I can see plainly how left recursion could be trickier, but I'm wondering if you can do backtracking with right recursion at all

It seems to maintain left associativity you have to define the grammer in an upside down graph with a start for each specific terminal rather than letting it recurse into the terminals because it'll never recurse left to maintain your associativity (this is my understanding of reading the literature on wikipedia on rewriting left-recursive grammers to right-recursive grammers while maintaining left-associativity)

With left recursion how you risk infinite loops is plain to see

user55340

00:57

For chem engineer types: things I won't work with tag on a blog. How about HOOH. Yep. Hydrogen peroxide. What if you made that HOOOH or HOOOOOH instead? Sounds like fun.

psr

@JimmyHoffa You can set it up to match a list of expressions, which is passed to your handler function as an array. You can then put the array together left-associatively (that's how I did it, may not be optimal).

user15026

@MichaelT hahaha I have read most of those, they were delightfully horrifying

user55340

Oh no. Free house has peach apple cider. This does not bode well for my wallet.

user55340

Jimmy Hoffa

01:31

@psr yeah so this is what I was thinking - you had to create a left-associative list of entries for the terminals at the entry point rather than with a left-recursive grammar you would only need a single entry point and let it fall/select to the left towards the terminals on the bottom of the graph. It's like making the graph upside down with separate roots for each terminal rather than one root

that's what it more or less describes in the wikipedia literature

(or how I parsed it)

user55340

03:22

where snow clearing and computer science intersect. The snow blower problem (spoiler - it's NP complete)

user15026

03:36

I don't know who of you lot might find this interesting, but if I were a kidlet, I would likely love this stuff. Programming! Lego! Books! Yay!

Robert Harvey

04:06

Does <input type="datetime"/> work in Firefox 35? No, but it doesn't work in the latest version of Chrome either. Sure, avoid features that are not in the latest browsers. But seriously, is browser obsolescence really a problem anymore? If I want to, I can set Firefox up so that it updates to the latest version automatically, and I think this is the way it comes out of the box. Same with Chrome. — Robert Harvey 3 mins ago

Mike Nakis

09:35

Hello, guys! I have a quick question which is probably answered in some FAQ, but it is not easy to find. Would anyone be so kind as to help?

I have an answer on "programmers" which was upvoted and accepted at some point yesterday, and today it is not accepted anymore, another answer is accepted. It is not that I mind, but I just want to know how the site works. So, is it possible to accept one answer and then change your mind and accept another?

question answered elsewhere, please ignore.

MetaFight

Indeed it is possible to do that.

Thomas Owens

14:10

Is there a generic term for the idea of writing message formats in a way that is understandable by some kind of tool that can then generate the interface libraries you need to parse said messages into some kind of reasonable interface? Instead of a table in a document that defines the format of a message, it's a file that is both human readable/understandable, but also machine understandable to handle that message exchange?

I'm thinking along the lines of Google Protocol Buffers. A generic name for tools such as that.

Wikipedia calls ProtoBuf a "serialization" method, but that's not it. Serialization doesn't have the requirement of the ability to provide both a human-readable documentation and machine consumable method of producing a library.

amon

14:24

@ThomasOwens So you're asking about Domain Specific Languages for specifying message schemata?

durron597

@amon I agree with "Domain Specific Language"

Thomas Owens

Domain specific language doesn't seem specific enough. Plus, it doesn't really imply the relationship between a data file and a tool to consume it to produce libraries. Maybe there isn't a specific term for this type of thing?

amon

14:41

Perhaps “A schema language from which a tool can generate glue code”. The term “schema language” exists (e.g. XML schema languages such as RELAX NG or DTDs) and is apliccable here, but doesn't necessarily imply that code will be generated.

durron597

On a whim, I created an SO careers profile. The first box is "liked technologies and disliked technologies". I put c# and ruby in the disliked box. The first two jobs that appeared in the StackOverflow sidebar after doing this are a C# job and a ruby on rails job. hmmmmmm

enderland

14:55

SE is calling to you

durron597

@enderland <ghost>Learn new languagessss..... ooooooooooooooooooooooo</ghost>

Simon André Forsberg

15:13

in Duga's Playground, 3 mins ago, by Duga

This site is more to do with programming questions, not really about how to teach compiler use. Perhaps here — ryyker 22 secs ago

Robert Harvey

15:31

@durron597 The true nature of technology careers shows itself. You'll do it, and you'll like it, muahaha.

durron597

@RobertHarvey It'd be good to have more black walnut experience.

enderland

@durron597 cherry is a much prettier wood though than walnut

Robert Harvey

16:15

My wife was asking what I was thinking about during breakfast, so I tried to explain this using a "pegs and holes" metaphor.

"If I have a container with a round peg and a square peg, I can derive a new container by adding a star peg to it. But I need to put the star peg into the machine that makes the container, and I have to do that with another machine that looks at the containers and machines to find the hole with the right shape."

Ugh, the language specification is almost easier.

Jimmy Hoffa

16:29

I don't understand exactly what he's looking for, but sounds similar to what I've used static generic classes for...

Robert Harvey

He's trying to figure out how to get a derived static method in a generic to fire, but T.SomeMethod won't compile and there's nothing to cast because it's a static method from a static class.

Normally, you would have derived object instances to call against.

So basically, you need typeof and a switch statement. Or you can call the static method with Reflection.

Jimmy Hoffa

0

A: How to design similiar purpose static methods

You could create a static member for a generic static class that has the function for each subclass type. Just make each sub class have a static constructor that sets the appropriate action for how it does processing. public static class ProcessDt<T> { public Action<T> ProcessAllFromDt { get...

durron597

@RobertHarvey Why would you even try to do it that way, rather than just making an instance?

Jimmy Hoffa

Does that work for what he wants you think?

Robert Harvey

On reflection (no pun intended), it seems to me that passing around object instances probably makes more sense than passing around types.

Jimmy Hoffa

16:43

@RobertHarvey the thing is, for his specific behaviour the type is a predicate - he's talking about doing an if against the type for everything. Which is why I encourage using a generic because that causes the type system at compile type to encode the predicate for you

whenever you're using a type for a predicate, start thinking about how you can use the type systems features to dispatch the behaviour for you, it'll be more performant and easier to maintain than explicit conditionals

Robert Harvey

Yes, but you can't dispatch without an object.

You can't call T.SomeMethod()

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey can to, so long as a constraint guarantees it's there

Robert Harvey

It won't compile.

Jimmy Hoffa

will to

Robert Harvey

Aw, c'mon. It's a generic type parameter. How is the compiler supposed to know about that at compile time?

Jimmy Hoffa

16:46

public static void DoStuff<T>(this T target) where T : ClassThatHasTheMethod { target.TheMethod(); }

That's what generic constraints are for...

Robert Harvey

Yes, but he wants to call the method on a derived class.

Jimmy Hoffa

they tell the compiler that the T will have these features, and that the compiler must blow up anytime something is handed to the method that does not have them

Robert Harvey

He already has the constraint, but it's on a base class.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey ?? Yes and? the T : ClassThatHasTheMethod is a constraint that means inherits from, not is

so make the constraint on an interface with the method, or an abstract class with the method, all subclasses will have the method with sub class specific behaviour which will be called...

Robert Harvey

I think all those things imply object instances, but I could be wrong.

Jimmy Hoffa

16:48

no

none of them do

if all he wants is to use generic constraints then my answer is terribly overcomplicated

hell I'm deleting that answer, I suspect he wants a simple abstract method and doesn't even know how to do that...

Robert Harvey

Don't delete it.

Look here first:

54

Q: Calling a static method on a generic type parameter

I was hoping to do something like this, but it appears to be illegal in C#: public Collection MethodThatFetchesSomething<T>() where T : SomeBaseClass { return T.StaticMethodOnSomeBaseClassThatReturnsCollection(); } I get a compile-time error: "'T' is a 'type parameter', which is not v...

c# generics

Jimmy Hoffa

why does he want to derive a static method ??? It makes no sense.

He doesn't understand static

You never ever have reason to do that - it logically doesn't make any sense.

Robert Harvey

Because he doesn't want to have to instantiate an object to call the method. He understands it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey no no, the point of derivation is to have an object that could be any of multiple types, if you know the type ahead of time, then there's no reason for this nonsense. In his case - he won't have an instance, so why the hell would he use derivation?

Why does he want those methods on those classes when those classes will never be there when he uses those methods?

He just wants static methods, tell him to put them all in a static class.

Robert Harvey

Really, I think he just wants to avoid the switch statement that would be required.

Jimmy Hoffa

16:54

Either he will have an instance so he needs abstract methods, or he won't have an instance so he'll know the type. (truth be told he will have an instance, all his code examples have shown this to be true)

@RobertHarvey there will be no necessary switch statement...

Robert Harvey

He wants a factory that calls the same method regardless of the type. In other words, the behavior doesn't change between cases.

Well, not outside the called method, anyway.

He can still write different behavior in the derived methods, but the signatures are all the same.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey there will be no derived methods without instances

Robert Harvey

public static myFactoryMethod(T object)
{
    switch(typeof(T))
   {
        case one : TypeOne.SameMethod(object);
        case two : TypeTwo.SameMethod(object);
        // Where TypeOne and TypeTwo both derive from the same abstract type having virtual SameMethod();

Jimmy Hoffa

and the word factory means nothing

factory is used for constructing objects

he's clearly not doing any sort of construction

maybe my answer is right... fuck I have no idea what he's doing, he's totally vague and doesn't seem to understand some basic facts of the type system

never switch on a type, that's what generics are for

which is why I wrote my answer because he mentioned switching on a type

sounds like an X/Y problem, but if he just wants to avoid switching on a type my solution is correct

Robert Harvey

See my code above.

Jimmy Hoffa

16:59

@RobertHarvey stop saying stuff about virtual static methods - it simply makes no sense

Robert Harvey

Well, it doesn't, really.

Note that in a functional language, this sort of thing would probably never come up.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey no because we don't embed our functions in our types

Robert Harvey

Exactly.

It's an X Y problem anyway.

Jimmy Hoffa

yeah

Perhaps my answer will make him realize he doesn't know what he wants himself

enderland

My coworkers are discussing whether or not functional programming makes sense for large scale implementations

it's like The Whiteboard -- IRL!

Robert Harvey

17:03

@enderland Did you read The Parable of the Two Programmers starred earlier?

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland and tell me, does a single one of them actually know a functional language thoroughly?

enderland

@RobertHarvey I don't recall

@JimmyHoffa Probably not? I'm not sure

enderland goes to read while IT "fixes" his computer"

Jimmy Hoffa

Highly unlikely. Most decisions people make about FP ("It's simply not viable for large scale") are wholey uninformed

which is sad. It's mostly because people assume it's quite similar to what they already know so they figure their understanding is sufficient for a proper analysis (I figured as much before I really picked up Haskell)

enderland

@RobertHarvey That's rather interesting

Duga

@ryyker - this would be off-topic on Programmers as well. — GlenH7 41 secs ago

user114359

17:16

Does anyone know why sometimes when I type @ and someone's name I 1. don't get the suggestion window to pop up and 2. the whole @ thing does not end up in my comment?

user114359

So far today this happened to me with comments attached to two separate questions.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman you can only notice one person in a comment, trying to do it a second time or a second person in the same comment will just bail

user114359

@JimmyHoffa I know I am am talking about just one person

user114359

Like right there sometimes the @ JimmyHoffa would vanish

Jimmy Hoffa

Try harder

user41796

17:19

@JimmyHoffa vodka and dinosaurs this early?

Robert Harvey

Raptor tequila

user41796

@RobertHarvey Oh, I'd pay good money for that...

user114359

I keep forgetting to ask (and I keep forgetting to sit in Whiteboard when I should be working too) but @JimmyHoffa can you tell us where you are buried?

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey Crustacean Vintage?

user55340

@RobertHarvey carlsonvineyards.com/orderwine.cfm?ID=5

Robert Harvey

17:21

@Snowman Wherever it is, continuation-passing style was involved.

user41796

@Snowman you mean here in chat? Or in comments on main?

enderland

You also only need a few characters @sno

user55340

Wine and Dino. Pearadactyl anyone?

user114359

@GlenH7 it normally works fine here but normally in comments it fails

user41796

Two different systems

Jimmy Hoffa

17:22

@MichaelT Dino and Dash - when you throw a chicken into a restaurant and run away?

user41796

If someone has edited a post, that will sometimes show up in the prompt. The author of a post will also show up, but the system removes it before submitting

user41796

And then you can get prompts on anyone else who has participated in that particular comment thread

user55340

@JimmyHoffa preferable over Bore and Boar.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT trephaning a wild hog?

user55340

This meeting is boring. Hey look! A wild pig!

user114359

17:26

oh well I can't do much about it anyway, I just wonder if other people think I don't know how to ping people with @.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman Is it ok if we think you don't anyway?

really, it's probably just you're bumping into the 2 pings in one comment, or your browser is choking on the javascript or a security plugin in your browser is kicking it out

user55340

@GlenH7 there is also the "only two " one where there can only be one person you are pinging that then lacks the @

Jimmy Hoffa

something mundane like that

user41796

Apropos of nothing: Props to @AshleyNunn for dropping this week's humble bundle link in chat recently.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I guess I did get it right. Peanuts for me!

enderland

17:39

Man, our SCCM client is AWFUL

EVEN FOR @#%@#ing FREE SOFTWARE

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland I'm thinking CMMI...no, I have no clue what SCCM is...

enderland

system configuration center manager

Jimmy Hoffa

ohh, you mean MOM

enderland

how software is deployed

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh no n/m, MOM is the old version of a new acronym that's not that one...

to be fair, I've only heard bad things about that windows DC deployment stuff

people tend to prefer non-MS solutions for that I understand

enderland

17:42

sudo apt-get

user55340

Mom doesn't work here. Pick up your own messes. In a day or so.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT MOM was good, I don't know why people didn't like it or it's replacement...

(no, the replacement wasn't called WIFE)

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Kudos on the answer to that guy's question. I really need to get better at this whole "higher-order functions" thing.

Jimmy Hoffa

17:57

@RobertHarvey aye, that one was more about thinking in terms of types though, encoding rules into your type system

user114359

18:17

We need a vote close reason for Offtopic: please do not post while drunk and please use punctuation. programmers.stackexchange.com/q/272772/22815

Jimmy Hoffa

parasol.tamu.edu/~rwerger/Courses/434/lec11.pdf

whatsisname

that's what the other field is for

Jimmy Hoffa

Cool, very elementary-school-terms lecture on left and right associativity and recursion in parsers

Duga

18:46

^^This is the key. Create a "Standard" and stick to it, don't chop and change every five minutes. Also, this question is better suited to programmers.stackexchange — GPPK 1 min ago

@GPPK Primarily opinion based questions are going to be closed on Programmers, on StackOverflow, and everywhere else on Stack Exchange. Please see Programmers What is On Topic — durron597 1 min ago

Robert Harvey

19:21

INTERVIEWER: We need someone with mahogany experience.
APPLICANT: I've built dressers and beds with mahogany.
INTERVIEWER: Yes, but we need someone who knows how to build end-tables. We have no interest in dressers or beds.

user41796

@enderland They've got their claws sunk in deep, I take it?

Simon André Forsberg

in Duga's Playground, 4 mins ago, by Duga

It's a very broad question (but certainly not off-topic!), however I think it's safe to say that you may find more suitable reactions to it on either programmers.stackexchange.com or dba.stackexchange.com — Michal 39 secs ago

Robert Harvey

I was just thinking about building a game in HTML5 so that I could demonstrate that I know HTML5 and CSS3. Then I remembered that most employers with business application needs will be totally unable to relate. "We don't need games, we need business applications."

Simon André Forsberg

I think I need to refine @Duga's filter a bit

user41796

@SimonAndréForsberg We'll find the happy medium between false-positives and missed alerts. Thanks again for working on this.

user114359

19:26

@RobertHarvey I thought building a game was the de facto way to learn anything

amon

@SimonAndréForsberg can you detect links? Links are likely to be positives unless they link to a specific non-meta answers or questions.

Robert Harvey

@Snowman Not enough jQuery or Angular or [insert favorite data binding technology of the week here].

user41796

@enderland That's a classic end-run maneuver.

enderland

@GlenH7 yeah i just forgot to talk with him since I talked to my other two managers...

Simon André Forsberg

@amon yup, I can. I think a pure link-detection for Programmers is one of the features in the next version of the filter.

enderland

19:29

:20000799 I don't think he knew that, just got lucky - though I'm really glad I got to have the convo I had with my team lead regarding other convos I'd had

user41796

@enderland I'm in a mood, so I'm going to assume malice. :-D

durron597

> Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now.
Bob Slydell: I beg your pardon?
Peter Gibbons: Eight bosses.
Bob Slydell: Eight?
Peter Gibbons: Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work…

user41796

@enderland "be patient"

enderland

I know. It's just all so funny to me the timing

durron597

@enderland It's absurd to have more than 1 boss.

user41796

19:32

Sometimes that's how it works. Props that the current supervisory types are aware that options exist.

enderland

The more the merrier!

user41796

@durron597 8's a good number though

enderland

@GlenH7 well of course - that's a common enough thing in software dev...

user41796

@enderland I've met a lot that are in complete denial of that option, surprisingly.

durron597

@GlenH7 Well, right. You can have 1 boss or 8 bosses but no other numbers work. 8's just one of those magic numbers

user41796

19:34

@durron597 exactly and it just takes a little more jui-jitsu to work them off of each other to your benefit. Smaller numbers of bosses just don't play that way

psr

@durron597 "So can I get that raise now?" "Magic 8-boss says 'Reply hazy, ask again later'".

user41796

When someone posts the compiler output in response to a request for debugger output, you know there's something fundamentally wrong.

user114359

When someone posts a "my code doesn't work" question and shows zero understanding of how code should work, you know there is something fundamentally wrong.

whatsisname

i am always a fan of "my code doesn't work", when they post their source code

and thats it

user41796

I hadn't read Lippert's how to debug small programs yet. There's some hilarious gems in there

durron597

19:49

> If your program still has a bug, obtain a rubber duck. Or if a rubber duck is unavailable, get another computer science undergraduate, it’s much the same.

user41796

I nearly literally laughed out loud at that one.

user114359

Rubber duck debugging

Rubber duck debugging is an informal term used in software engineering for a method of debugging code. The name is a reference to a story in the book The Pragmatic Programmer in which a programmer would carry around a rubber duck and debug his code by forcing himself to explain it, line-by-line, to the duck. Many other terms exist for this technique, often involving different inanimate objects. Many programmers have had the experience of explaining a programming problem to someone else, possibly even to someone who knows nothing about programming, and then hitting upon the solution in the process...

enderland

Man this week is nutszo

user41796

@enderland more has unfolded?

user41796

There, now everyone has to click through all of those histories...

enderland

19:56

Yeah... it'd be more of an intergration ETL type position

but less programming and more ETL

user41796

Random link of the day: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP_SE

enderland

most large companies run on something like SAP/Oracle/ibm stuff - huge database types of things that an entire company can run with

durron597

@GlenH7 That sounds like something that would sap my will to live

enderland

Right, hence my hesitation

durron597

Pun <you figure it out> intended

user41796

19:59

@durron597 it's notorious for the quirks of the language it uses

user41796

but that said, enterprises simply can't hire enough developers who know SAP.

enderland

It's kinda the equivalent of selling your soul for job security and boring work

user41796

although I'm sure some of that is due to needing folks who know how to program in maple sap as opposed to mahogany sap as opposed to cherry sap as opp....

user41796

@enderland The boring part depends upon what the enterprise has put in the framework

durron597

@GlenH7 maple sap is good for doing advanced math

user41796

20:01

large, multinationals with huge supply chains can have some interesting work

user41796

@durron597 fermented maple sap is actually pretty good for a whiskey too

durron597

@GlenH7 I've also heard vermont maple sap is good on pancakes

enderland

I don't know. FML too many decisions

durron597

@enderland Close your eyes, scrub your brain, take a deep breath. Once you have successfully blanked out your thoughts, ask yourself "what do I want to do?" Do the first thing that pops into your mind

(That exercise works better when someone else is present to ask the question, but hey.)

enderland

I'm from the Workplace. it's "quit"

3

Which... :|

Jimmy Hoffa

20:08

@enderland this industry is so utterly jacked... hard to find a decent job, hard to find employees, how do you have both of those problems in one industry?? All the reams of people between the want-job folk and want-employees folk are just fucking everything up for everyone.

2

user114359

everyone has unattainable standards

user41796

@Snowman And here I was thinking mine were too low... :-)

user114359

@GlenH7 my employer is very selective about who they hire. But they also have a lot to offer. Job market in my area is actually very healthy so it works out.

durron597

@JimmyHoffa The cost of living is so high that only enormous companies can afford to hire people and pay them a decent amount. However, enormous companies also tend to have enormous bureaucracy

user41796

go vote this up, please:

user41796

20:21

0

A: Community Promotion Ads - 2015

user114359

vote on what?

gnat

@SimonAndréForsberg while you're tuning it, couple crap-throwers from SO slipped through. :( Good that we've got Duga's playground for unfiltered stuff...

enderland

What we need is a six-steps-of-separation experiment where people list all the "these people are intelligent and good" and then invite them to list people, with some sort of double blind filtering process

then everyone can just make a list of all the non-terribad people to work with and hiring gets easier

user41796

@Snowman The community promotion ad promoting the new engineering beta site

enderland

"you need a reference to join this list! find someone intelligent and convince them you aren't a moron"

Simon André Forsberg

20:26

@gnat yup, I am aware of those. I am marking false-negatives in @Duga's Playground by starring them. I have some ideas for how to catch them better

gnat

@SimonAndréForsberg to avoid misunderstanding, I don't complain. Your efforts are much appreciated

Simon André Forsberg

@gnat No misunderstandings occurred :)

enderland

I love seeing double messages, "p.SE!" "no, not P.SE!"

Simon André Forsberg

I understand that 1 chat message is better than 0.

@enderland In the 2nd Monitor, that tends to give us something to star (as if we needed that)

enderland

Two is good, 1 is bad, 0 is undefined

1 means that no one wanted to correct the chatbot :)

Simon André Forsberg

20:31

or that the second wasn't caught by the bot

enderland

Yeah I guess

user41796

@enderland Depends. I've taken to referring to the site as Progs when I'm correcting an errant recommendation

enderland

@GlenH7 so its your fault! :P

user41796

@Michal - this would get closed on Progs as "Too Broad." — GlenH7 1 hour ago

durron597

Someone should make a genetic algorithm to continually refine the filter. If there's a reply comment, the template gets to breed again

enderland

20:34

only from a list of users though

Simon André Forsberg

@durron597 that someone is not me. But while that someone is at it, that someone should also make a pull request

durron597

@SimonAndréForsberg This is a good time to remind everyone about this

Simon André Forsberg

@durron597 I don't cheat on my dear Code Review with PCG!

durron597

@SimonAndréForsberg I was changing the subject to that awesome thread

Simon André Forsberg

PCG does have some very interesting challenges every now and then, but at other times it looks more or less like the Kid's Playground of Stack Exchange.

enderland

20:43

I should have wrote an example for that GA problem

Robert Harvey

Every time I encounter a new GOF pattern, I keep thinking "This is a lot of complexity without a correspondingly awesome benefit."

gnat

@RobertHarvey new GOF pattern is an oxymoron

Robert Harvey

Well, new to me.

user41796

@RobertHarvey keep in mind that those were created during the darker days of C++ prior to even the STL being commonplace.

Robert Harvey

That's good to know. There's a good chance that e.g. the Decorator Pattern has a better solution today.

user41796

20:48

There was a lot of repetitive boilerplate where it made sense to sweep stuff under the ~~pattern~~ rugs.

Robert Harvey

Reams of boiler plate. No wonder people just parrot this stuff without thinking about it too much.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 which makes it doubly sad that all these years later and most people still haven't improved upon them by, I don't know, creating better solutions to their problems than some canned solutions for problems that are hardly related to theirs 20 years ago

gnat

@RobertHarvey oh that. Then probably half of them listed in GOF are new to me either. Long time ago I tried very hard to remember these and couldn't. Dropped this and now load my brain only with those I use in practice, these tend to stick easily

durron597

@GlenH7 I haven't written C++ in a really, really long time. Is STL a C++ equivalent of like java.util?

user41796

Put another way, GoF is a set of very intelligent architects who talked with lots of folk. And they kept seeing people complain about the same crap all over the place. So they captured that crud in the concept of patterns

user41796

20:49

@durron597 yes

user41796

As in you don't want to try to write C++ without using it

durron597

I wouldn't want to write Java without java.util ;)

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 Templates? The only thing similar to those in Java/C# are generics.

user41796

ironically, I didn't get a C++ gig because I didn't have enough experience with mahogany. (aka STL)

user114359

There are some good GOF patterns but some of them are overengineered.

user41796

20:50

@RobertHarvey The STL offers up a lot more than just templates

Robert Harvey

Oh, didn't know that.

Jimmy Hoffa

STL is more like a common library - Java has a standard one, C++ for many years hardly did at all, so they put "standard" into the name of their library to try and convince people to standardize on it. It worked more or less, but there's still plenty of non-stl stuff. C++ is like writing Java if some libraries had all their things rooted at ObjectX and others had their shit rooted at ObjectY and then there were a bunch of functions throughout their libraries to convert between the librarys types

user41796

yeah, it was quite ground breaking / revolutionary. One of the key things that shifted folk from writing C code in C++.

user41796

Standard Template Library

The Standard Template Library (STL) is a software library for the C++ programming language that influenced many parts of the C++ Standard Library. It provides four components called algorithms, containers, functional, and iterators. The STL provides a ready-made set of common classes for C++, such as containers and associative arrays, that can be used with any built-in type and with any user-defined type that supports some elementary operations (such as copying and assignment). STL algorithms are independent of containers, which significantly reduces the complexity of the library. The STL achieves...

Jimmy Hoffa

how sad that the idea of a standardly used library for their language was "ground breaking" just speaks to how much utterly broken crap C++ people are willing to put up with instead of fixing

user41796

20:53

@JimmyHoffa it was part of the growth of the language

user41796

remember that C++ wasn't backed by some mega corp

user41796

It was basically one guy who said "we can do better than C and the like"

user114359

STL is templates. The "standard library" is everything else.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 neither was perl or python but they had a common core library

user41796

Truthfully, I think he was trying to cram smalltalk upon the rest of us, but he used C's syntax

rolfl

20:54

Also, while I don't particularly like C++ (I am a Java person), what's really neat is that you can still do C++ on really small systems, with little or no overhead. The STL is not an essential component, just a nice to have, and you can throw it out if you don't need it.

Jimmy Hoffa

HAH. C++ is so far from smalltalk that's just silly

rolfl

C++ on a 8-bit microcontroller, no problem

user41796

@JimmyHoffa some of the conceptual ideas came out of there, IIRC. I may have misplaced it's actual inspiration

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl yeah but then you may as well write C and have a language that better fits the paradigm you'll be coding in anyway if you're working that embedded

user114359

@rolfl part of that is because of the linker model, not so much the C++ language itself. Static linking will generally omit dead code, shrinking the size of your executable which is useful for low-footprint programs.

user114359

20:55

Same is true for C too

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 people often attribute "inheritance" and "objects" to small talk and then say C++ must have gotten those ideas from it. Truth be told the type systems aren't very similar between the two languages

rolfl

That is all true, but the distinction between the language and the libraries is much clearer than in languages like Java, where the language definition depends on the libraries...

Consider the Java structure: for (String s : args) { ....

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl yes, but some would argue you shouldn't try make decisions for such a specialist niche that causes so many problems for your broader purpose - if C++ truly intends to be "general purpose".

Java doesn't intend to be that embedded so there's no incongruence in them deciding to tie their language to their library when that's the rational decision for a high level general purpose language

(not that Java doesn't aim for embedded, just not at the microcontroller level quite the same as C/C++)

user114359

I thought Java was intended for embedded originally, but ended up dominating web servers instead

user114359

I thought the original marketese for it involved running everywhere, like a 90s version of IoT

Jimmy Hoffa

21:01

@Snowman it was intended for cross platform but even at that I don't know how much it was intended to be used for tiny level. That said I understand it does still have some libraries and runtime specialized to run at the embedded level. Though all of the decisions throughout the language make it a very hard sell to claim it wasn't intending to be a general purpose language first and foremost. I think the cross-platform thing was a side effect of their intention to have something

that was general purpose and high level

user41796

Simula, not smalltalk. My bad. stroustrup.com/hopl2.pdf

Robert Harvey

Simula; wow, that goes back a ways.

durron597

Excel gurus: is there a keystroke for copy cell contents (as opposed to copy entire cell)

user41796

@RobertHarvey 1979 started the trip fantastic for what is now known as C++

user41796

And I don't think AT&T backed Bjarne in the way that MS or Sun did with C# and Java.

enderland

21:09

@durron597 you can double click into the cell and copy it? is that not what you want?

user41796

it was more of having the freedom to give it a go

durron597

without putting my hands on the mouse

enderland

you might be able to set the default paste mode to be special

durron597

the equivalent of F2 -> Shift + Home -> Ctrl + C

user41796

@durron597 I have always used the mouse to click into the formula bar and copy from there

durron597

21:12

I should ask my boss at Employer^. Excel and being a jerk were the only things he was good at

rolfl

7

A: How to copy the contents only of an Excel cell minus the formatting?

You can use Paste Special (in the edit menu) to specify exactly what should and should not be pasted. If you have Excel 2007 or later, pasting normally (Ctrl+V) also works; a dropdown box then appears with options to paste without formatting, etc. You can then click the menu or press Ctrl to op...

durron597

@rolfl This is a copy issue not a paste issue

rolfl

key point being, after pasting, you can press the ctrl key again to get through the paste-special options.

durron597

I'm trying to copy a cell from one sheet into the Filter search box of another sheet

which doesn't accept the "cell" data flavor

rolfl

Well, don't do that, then.... didn't you know, microsoft only makes possible the things you need to do. If it is not possible, then you did not need to do it anyway.

enderland

21:16

write a short keyboard macro, record it, and assign it to a shortcut

and by write I mean ht the record button and let it do it for you

durron597

@rolfl s/microsoft only makes/Microsoft and Apple only make/ (gotta make sure to fix the grammar AND the capitalization)

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl people joke about these things all the time, and then speak despisingly of all kinds of language features that are "foot guns" -> If <corp/tech I dislike> doesn't allow it, you didn't need to do it, amiright? sarcasm sarcasm ? and then they follow it up with "dynamic typing is just wrong, nobody should do that!" or "multiple inheritance just causes problems, no one should do that!"

durron597

'twould be nice if Excel boxes in formula editors also had right click menus (especially for cut/copy/paste)

Jimmy Hoffa

The reality is that the companies are likely purposefully curtailing the abilities of their technology in a tradeoff trying to avoid people accidentally causing lots of problems at the risk of removing their ability to do something that may be useful

durron597

especially since arrow keys edit the text instead of moving the cursor.

Jimmy Hoffa

21:22

the goal being to help those who use their tech do good work, tradeoffs always make someone unhappy.

rolfl

Ooops... catching up... Yeah, companies compromize between features supported, and user confusion.

I have done that before too. (or been asked to do it).

user41796

@rolfl Always gotta prioritize user confusion.

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl we all do, it's good practice- an important part of API design.

If we weren't worried about making people capable of doing dangerous things we'd just do away with public and private accessors etc

Robert Harvey

@rolfl I interviewed with Employer^^ a couple of months ago, though we couldn't come to an agreement... One of the reasons I interviewed a second time was I wanted to know how he managed to keep five software developers busy. The answer was that he says "yes" to every feature request a customer makes. His code base is now two million lines of code and 92 separate C# and VB projects.

rolfl

I mean, that's why vi does not support playing doom, whereas emacs probably does ;-)

Jimmy Hoffa

21:31

so that line of argument against a company or tech really holds no water. It's just a populist line of garbage.

rolfl

@JimmyHoffa Of course it is, but it's also fun (sometimes)

I work for the king of companies that does that - IBM.

You may have the features of your choice, so long as they are blue.

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl ah, I'm sorry. I've yet to run into a single soul who enjoyed working for IBM in the last 20 years...

rolfl

I got it lucky. I have a lot of fun, actually.

Jimmy Hoffa

I've heard great things about the 70s and 80s IBM, but you're the first to claim to have a decent space in any modern incarnation of it. Though not surprising, huge companies are huge. The worst huge company still has a good team somewhere just by sheer odds.

rolfl

In a company of 400,000+ people, if you can't find something interesting to do, it's not their fault...

Robert Harvey

21:35

@rolfl That's because you need 390,000 drones.

rolfl

In fairness, IBM has this thing called an IBM fellow, a person who is paid lots, and given money to make good ideas happen.

Robert Harvey

Yeah; they're in the 10,000.

I've always found the work in smaller companies far more interesting.

rolfl

I happen to be working in one of the 'innovation teams' that's been put together in by a fellow.

Jimmy Hoffa

@rolfl yes, this I've heard of. Different story than the majority of their employees. Like Microsofts "Partners" if I recall the term correctly

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Fellows usually have to work their way up through the ranks. Booch is an oddball since he was picked up when IBM bought Rationale

user41796

21:37

Ditto with Gamma (at least I think it was Gamma they picked up with Rational as well)

rolfl

Many fellows are acquired.... (sort of becomes a privilidge of being acquired).

enderland

"hey we want to keep you but dont have a place, here, take some money and a team"

rolfl

I worked for Algorithmics when they were acquired, then Neil Bartlett became a fellow.

user41796

@rolfl one of the guys I worked with received his in 2009. I just looked him up.

rolfl

Jeff Jonas, from G2 when they were acquired.

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