The Whiteboard

Robert Harvey

18:09

Wow.

@durron597 irony.codeplex.com

> Unlike most existing yacc/lex-style solutions Irony does not employ any scanner or parser code generation from grammar specifications written in a specialized meta-language. In Irony the target language grammar is coded directly in c# using operator overloading to express grammar constructs.

whatsisname

@RobertHarvey: I say that bolded part and said "wut"

Robert Harvey

It's quite ingenious, actually.

Operator overloading is something that every developer says is evil, but secretly sees it as a magic wand, and wishes they could use it everywhere.

Their Scheme grammar sample is about 200 lines of code.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey everyone focuses on the operator part, it's actually the overloading part that makes it dangerous. There's nothing wrong with using operators as infix functions for particular purposes a fairly bit, but when using them means one thing once, and something else another time is when it becomes a wat?

Robert Harvey

Granted, most of the time, one should simply use a function.

Irony is different, because you're basically writing your language in C# with a bunch of overloaded operators.

It looks dangerous as hell, but you're actually leveraging a lot of capability that's already present in C#.

And the coolness factor is off the scale.

1

Q: Where is the evidence for the performance of Node.js?

A lot of developers, especially ones who haven't used Node.js in production, seem to believe that Node.js is faster than other interpreted languages such as PHP, Python, and Ruby. These claims include: Node.js/V8 is x times faster than y language. The JavaScript reactor pattern will always h...

Jimmy Hoffa

one thing about operators is it makes things read much more declarative as your brain automatically parses it as an equation, function calls always just look like a call to execute something

Robert Harvey

18:21

^^ -----I edited this question to remove the requests for benchmarks. Can we get it reopened?

user41796

@RobertHarvey Seems like the author on that one is going to edit and shift the focus of the question, right?

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa The key to successful operator overloading is that the operators you are overloading must preserve the correct semantic meaning for the operator. You can get away with + for strings because everyone intuitively understands how that is supposed to work with strings. Similarly, overloading operators to implement a language should make sense because the tokens in the language are clearly defined in the language specification.

@GlenH7 Maybe. But he's not here right now, and the question was dead in its original form.

He's made his intent fairly clear in the comments.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey again that's overloading. I'm a fan of your own operators with semantic definitions that make sense in their own way. Like fparsec has <. where the . means meet the predicate on the left, return the results of the parser on the right, then .< means meet the predicate on the left and return the results of it, and .<. means meet the predicate on the left, but return a tuple of the results from the left and right sides of the operator.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Needs 2 more

Jimmy Hoffa

pstring "ab" <. pstring "cd" would return "cd" for "abcd"
pstring "ab" .< pstring "cd" would return "ab" for "abcd"
pstring "ab" .<. pstring "cd" would return ("ab","cd") for "abcd"

consistent semantics, but without requiring people to overload their understanding of known operators like + or * or = etc

durron597

18:31

@JimmyHoffa I'm fine with that example

Jimmy Hoffa

just making a point, it's the overloading in operator overloading that is really the harry part, people often conflate any symbolic infix functions with being evil because that rule about operator overloading but really there's great purposes for symbolic infix functions, like I said before they read more declaratively than function calls which always tend to read like an execution

Robert Harvey

@rolfl ffs.

rolfl

ffs => Freezing Fog Sucks?

Robert Harvey

Exactly.

rolfl

"Freezing" precipitation is something really hard to explain to people who have not experienced it

Jimmy Hoffa

18:35

dawood.in/if-carpenters-were-hired-like-programmers

3

rolfl

I must admit that the physics required to get freezing fog at -39 befuddles me.

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Classic.

Totally true, too.

Some companies are hiring people primarily for their talent, and secondarily for their language-slinging capabilities, but they're also the same companies that do those goddamn puzzle tests.

I'm making my way through Hackerrank, getting better at the puzzles.

rolfl

Post your solutions to Code Review ... we'll politely inform you where you could do better ;-)

Robert Harvey

That's not a bad idea, once I get into some of the puzzles that are more substantial.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Don't forget to polish up on the black walnut while you're at it.

rolfl

18:40

And, if you just polish it as a nut, you can add mechanic to your resume ;-)

Robert Harvey

It's funny how some of these companies look at your Stack Overflow profile and get so excited. Then they give you a puzzle test, and you never hear from them again.

Oops. Freudian slip.

user41796

Please close quickly:

user41796

-1

Q: Crypto++ Wiki License

Ive been asking too much license questions, But I think its the best place for such a thing about libs like crypto++ crypto++ is an awesome library with an awesome wiki but theres no license in the wiki so is it considered under Boost License as well, or what ? technically something without a co...

licensing copyright cryptography

user41796

@RobertHarvey Because you clearly don't have a public body of work demonstrating your ability to solve real programming problems

Robert Harvey

I don't. Well, nothing that I can show, anyway.

It's all company-proprietary stuff.

Unless you mean my Stack Overflow rep.

rolfl

18:43

I got my first job based purely on an aptitude test.

Not sure if that's the right way to do it either, but it worked for me ... ;-)

Robert Harvey

It was an entry-level position, I assume?

rolfl

yeah, straight from university

My resume said: "rock climbing, guitar, hiking as hobbies", and "I think I have a B.Com but I don't have any results yet".

majors in business finance and human resource management.... application for a programming job.

Robert Harvey

That's pretty cool, and a perfectly sensible way to do it.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey they don't seem to understand that you are a professional with non-disclosure agreements or something?

rolfl

(I hated my university, and was a stupid student... I thought I was going to be an accountant, I was wrong, and failed 2nd year university in the process).

After that, it was a case of trying to find out what I had to do to get a degree as fast as possible, in a way that did not kill my soul.

Robert Harvey

18:47

@Ampt Companies don't like taking risks. Hiring is hard, I understand that. But some companies are more aware than others (read: less clueless).

rolfl

I should have taken a step back, and done math/comp-sci and an extra year.

Robert Harvey

@rolfl If I had it to do over again, I would have gotten a CS degree and not an IT degree. But I didn't understand that at the time.

I thought I just needed the sheepskin. Which is partially true.

Ampt

that is the downside of the job market: you gotta have a job to get a job...

rolfl

In retrospect, all I needed was the job.... the degree became less important then....

This was .... in the early 90's, things were different back then

Robert Harvey

@Ampt Which makes no sense at all. Hiring people who need a job gives a company leverage. Don't they understand that?

Duga

18:52

Probably because concerns are separated? Do all methods on the root make sense for all nodes? This question is too broad for Stack Overflow, where we prefer more concrete coding problems. If you worked out this question with some more detail and your own research, it could be on topic for Programmers. But not in the state it is in as it stands. — Martijn Pieters 1 min ago

Robert Harvey

It's the great paradox of people. You can only attract a mate if you act like you don't need one. Otherwise, you look desperate.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I think it's just down to perception: "Why doesn't person X have a job", as well as "Person Y is already employed and has been so, so he must be valuable"

even if we don't realize it, I think that subconciously we have those thoughts

and in a world with little to no oversight or explanation, a gut feeling is often enough to cross a candidate off the list

which is pretty shitty all around

Robert Harvey

Oh, I claim that gut feeling is the only way people make decisions, especially hiring ones.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey company's don't need leverage, they make money hand over fist and have been actively racing eachother to the bottom of salaries for years so they needn't any leverage to reduce employee costs. There whole focus since the cost-reduction is already a solved equation they just execute as a background process, is now on ensuring the quality side. Unfortunately they have absolutely no idea how to do that so they make shit up: Has a job? Q+1, Has a degree? Q+2, Has 5 years our tech exp? Q+3

enderland

@RobertHarvey this worked for me

Jimmy Hoffa

18:56

@RobertHarvey especially hiring ones. Which is such a pisser...

Robert Harvey

They decide with their gut, and then rationalize their decision by reverse-engineering some logic to justify their gut feeling.

Because "Well, I just didn't like him. He rubbed me the wrong way" is insufficient justification otherwise.

It's more like "He's not a good cultural fit." Whatever that means.

Ampt

it means they don't have a good reason what-so-ever and are tired of making real ones up

rolfl

Here's a Duga miss....:

in Duga's Playground, 1 min ago, by Duga

Maybe better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com ? — h7r 1 min ago

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 thinks cultural fit is a great metric! He also likes behavioural analysis in interviews. (I'm totally calling you to the mat on these everytime someone mentions them in here to pick fights for you - sorry ;P)

maybe other people will argue these terrible ideas out of you eventually, but I suspect not. Can still try :D

rolfl

@Simon - Duga got-a second?

Ampt

19:02

@rolfl that was terrible. Please continue.

rolfl

I'm guessing Duga is suffering out-of-memory..... perhaps. Regardless, my wit has always been suspect.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa there's something to be said for having a team that works well together. I think people naturally work better with people who have similar interests or at least compatible work styles. That said, it's overused in my opinion, and can be harmful when you start getting an echo chamber going

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I don't disagree but I feel the vast majority of claims of not having a "cultural fit" are just people reverse engineering their subjective dismay into something they can claim to HR

Ampt

yes, but that doesn't mean that you can outright dismiss cultural fit as a qualifier for hiring a candidate

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt not outright, I do however recall you not too long ago telling me the idea of cultural fit was nonsense, oh the twisted webs we weave ;P

Robert Harvey

19:06

Cultural fit isn't entirely inconsequential. Once a candidate has demonstrated that they can do the job, the employer's next question is "Will he get along with the other team members? Does he work and play well with others?"

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa A man can change his mind: and I recall that I was upset at how easily abused it is, as well as how it can be damaging to a company as a whole

Robert Harvey

But "Do I like him or not" is not really a valid question, all by itself.

Jimmy Hoffa

I'll freely admit one of my largest objections to it is not one born of business interests and that really doesn't fit in pragmatism or reality: I find it very morally objectionable. Even with all the correct and relevant uses, it's horribly unfair to the plausibly highly skilled hard working engineer who may be far more capable than the person hired in his place just because he doesn't have the same mannerisms or social culture (perhaps he's foreign?)

Robert Harvey

No argument there.

Nevertheless, a person's people skills are vitally important to success in any workplace.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa again, it's ripe for abuse, not going to argue that point

Jimmy Hoffa

19:10

I'm not saying it serves no purpose to businesses, just that I can't get over the sense of immorality being used in a corporate-sociopathy fashion as it get's bandied about like that's totally acceptable (which it is in corporations, understandably this is how corporations must behave to compete)

@Ampt no I'm saying even when used correctly it's wholey immoral. Not when abused, just it's general use is to disqualify candidates who should have every right to the job in favor of others who may or may not have as much because of what amounts to social fit rather than technical skill

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa the long and the short of it is that a person who has better skills but works worse with the team is going to lose out to a team player with lower skills. or, in most cases, equal skills

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt yes, that's what I'm saying. And I find that morally objectionable. It is better for the business. I get that, it still just crawls under my skin... Immorality is something that I have a weak stomach for

Ampt

I mean in most cases the interview is looking to see if you meet a certain threshold

so if you've got 2 candidates who both meet that threshold (they can do the job), how would you pick?

rolfl

Take the healthier one

Ampt

are you saying that there's some magical way to assess two peoples skills at a finer level to pick one over the other in a reasonable fashion?

Jimmy Hoffa

19:14

@Ampt if they could both do the job equally well, does it matter how I pick then?

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa according to you, yes

Jimmy Hoffa

no

Ampt

picking based on who would work better with the team would be immoral

@rolfl hey what about sick people without jobs?

what about people who lost their job because they were sick!

Jimmy Hoffa

No, that's only when one is better than the other. Once they're the same skill level - neither is more deserving - then it no longer matters what your criteria are.

Ampt

ok, but how often in the hiring process is it clear that one is better than the other in a technical level

and how often would their pay grade be the same?

Jimmy Hoffa

19:16

@Ampt quite

rolfl

Agreed, it's seldom the case that you have two 'equal' candidates (after interviews).

Ampt

I mean out of the candidates left after you remove the ones who obviously can't do the job

rolfl

Not necessarily just technical though

Ampt

I think we've all agreed that interviews are broken, no

rolfl

I can remember a few occasions where we have encountered more than one candidate suitable for a position. On those occasions, we have resolved it by:
1. hiring them both
2. hiring the one we had a 'gut feel' for, and forwarding the other's resume, with a phone call, to an interested friend.
3. taking the one who wanted less, when pushed.

turnover in a large enough department is enough to carry an extra employee for a few months.... the hiring them both was a good win.

Jimmy Hoffa

19:21

yeah usually if you find someone who's good, it will just about always be a good win to get them

rolfl

exactly.

enderland

culture fit can affect how well you can do a job, though

user55340

@GlenH7 update the meta question on blog post to include shog dec 20 2010 comment. The sideways head version responding to shoban ("then stay on so...")

user41796

@MichaelT MSO or MSE comment?

user55340

@GlenH7 blog post comment

user55340

19:31

Blog - Stack Exchange: Introducing programmers.stackexchange.com

Jeff Atwood on December 16, 2010

One of the more popular Stack Exchange beta sites just came out of beta with a final public design:

Now watch closely as I read your mind.

I’m so glad you asked!

In a nutshell, Stack Overflow is for when you’re front of your compiler or editor working through code issues. Programmers is for when you’re in front of a whiteboard working through higher level conceptual programming issues. Hence the (awesome) whiteboard inspired design!

Stated another way, Stack Overflow questions almost all have actual source code in the questions or answers. It’s much rarer (though certainly OK) for a Programmers question to contain source code. …

Simon André Forsberg

@rolfl hey

user55340

blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/12/…

user55340

Not sure if right link there. But note the "don't follow that advice"

user41796

> The last thing either site needs is people asking perfectly good programming questions on a site explicitly created for non-programming questions.

Simon André Forsberg

@rolfl what do you mean by "3. taking the one who wanted less, when pushed."

enderland

19:36

Probably salary

A: "I want 100k!"
B: "I want 80k!"
"ok, we'll hire B"

user55340

@GlenH7 and the next sentence too

user41796

done

rolfl

Yeah, it was pretty much like @enderland said.... take the one who asked for 20K less.

I've been stewing over this hiring people thing..... and I think one dimension missing from the discussion is timing.....

It's like looking for your car keys. You stop looking, when you found them....

You need someone to do a job, so you start looking.

You stop looking when you find someone who can do it.

You seldom find two equally capable people at the same time.

You find someone, you have pressure to fill the job, they are capable, and affordable, so you make an offer. At that point, you're done, you can't really offer anyone else the position too....

Simon André Forsberg

19:55

makes sense

psr

@JimmyHoffa What would you say about a dev who hates using source control, say? Knows perfectly well how to do it, but habitually says "here, I've completed my work, you guys take care of this check-in stuff."? And admits it on the interview. "Lack of cultural fit with any development team, ever"? (FWIW, by and large I cringe when I hear "cultural fit"). But surely at some point you care about things other than the ability to do good technical work if they feel like it.

Matt S.

20:13

@psr Wouldn't source control technically be a part of the job expectations and not cultural expectations?

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr is that cultural fit? That sounds more like lack of ability to follow instructions - "We use source control. We require you to check in your work." -> "Somebody else do it" = Insubordinance.

rolfl

There's a difference between hating it, and not doing it properly.....

Jimmy Hoffa

I don't even frankly understand what "cultural fit" is supposed to mean. I believe in the flying spaghetti monster and they believe in Ramna the cow god?

enderland

Fitting in socially. Some people just... don't and others do

Matt S.

Cultural fit to me is something like the person can do the technical work, but they have a bad personality.

Micromanagers can manage, but they might not fit certain teams.

psr

20:26

@JimmyHoffa Probably not. But you seemed to be saying nothing matters but technical ability, and sometimes people with really good technical ability can be hard to get anything useful from.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattS. that's just so vague... and I've worked with plenty of people I would say "have a bad personality" that worked great because everyone else on the team did, so if you say no bad personality you can't apply that to a team full of those folk (granted I surely don't prefer working with them, but many of them don't work well with normal folk...) and then it's back to "fit" which again, so if they're all die hard steelers fans and I prefer curling, am I out?

enderland

I think culture fit is much more like, "are you in your 20s and willing to slave away for 60 hour weeks?" type of stuff

or "do you have a family and highly value stability?"

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr that's fair. There's a ton of things like that I house under the name of "professionalism" but that's utterly vague and everyone has different ideas of it's meaning so it's not a useful term for communicating

enderland

"do you prefer structured environements? really flexible and ad hoc?"

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland so is the kid who's going to work for 60 hours going to somehow be damaging or unsuccessful at adding value to the team full of stable family folk?

psr

20:29

@JimmyHoffa Actually, despite the vagueness, technical ability+professionalism isn't terrible as a guideline.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa maybe, people may feel threatened/etc

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland would you rather have a fellow on the team who's going to work hard and do good work, or someone who's going to feel threatened by such a person concerned they haven't been doing their best? If it comes down to one or the other... My experience tells me the majority of folk aren't threatened by young hard workers unless the environment and policies encourage them to be. Anyone who does feel threatened by such may be the kind of dead-sea folk you don't want to keep around

but you're not wrong. You don't want your entire team to go down in productivity because you hired one person, even if the fact that such could happen is a clear sign your team is not optimal already...

enderland

@JimmyHoffa there get to be a lot of factors in this sort of thing. Maybe all the people who value their time more get insecure about their job and leave (who knows, people are finicky and weird)

maybe they feel obligated to work more

maybe the other guy feels obligated to work less and becomes depressed, and wants to leave for a "more serious" company

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland I blame management squarely for anything like this. It's very easy for management to ensure their people aren't working unnecessarily - simply tell people to go home.

@enderland this is another thing I don't like - rejecting candidates because on their behalf, I think it should be up to candidates to decide if they want the position or not...

enderland

@JimmyHoffa but what if they want to work more? There are plenty of gung ho youngin's who want to work overtime/extra hours

Jimmy Hoffa

20:35

@enderland you should set expectations before you hire them...

enderland

I guess the point I'm making is, there are a lot of weird non-obvious-yet-meaningful things which affect company fit/culture other than "favorite sports team?"

open office environment vs cubes vs offices, etc

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland if you're going to tell me the correct answer is ever open office environment, I'm ending this conversation now :P

Never.

enderland

I know. Some people want and like that though...

Jimmy Hoffa

...I don't know why I'm having this conversation to begin with....not enough to do at work today I suppose, and arguing with you guys is challenging and good practice compared to most debates I participate in...

user55340

20s kid who does 60h week in 40h env (or vice versa) can create lots of tension of expectations

Jimmy Hoffa

20:38

@enderland Some people want to eat nothing but cheesecake for the rest of their lives, it's still the wrong thing to do.

@MichaelT yes, but again I would put it up to management to ensure he doesn't work 60h weeks

enderland

@MichaelT yup

user55340

A startup isn't the place for someone who wants to schedule summer vacation with kids schedule or has mortgage payments.

Jimmy Hoffa

and he should be aware that's not to be the job before he gets an offer (granted most managers wouldn't give a shit, they'd just salivate and say "Oh yeah do that, lots of that! Got any friends?")

enderland

@JimmyHoffa most people applying for their first job don't have the whiteboard to bounce ideas off of to get/set expectations though, either

user55340

Gvt coder isn't the place for kid who wants to change the world with the product.

user55340

20:40

@JimmyHoffa it can be rather difficult at times.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT our industry isn't the place for anyone who wants to change the world :P EE perhaps, ME sure, CE even. All sorts of engineering fields do big world-changing shit, SE just completes the loop for any/all of them.

@MichaelT true.

Matt S.

@JimmyHoffa Maybe. It depends on who's doing the hiring. Yay subjectivity!

user55340

Mgmt can say go home... And then they come in with a framework that they spent 40h coding that weekend...

Jimmy Hoffa

the sad fact is we're all debating about the merits of these concepts given an ideal manager, which makes up approximately 0.2% of folk. One of the best managers I've worked for refused to hire fat people. What a shit, and that was better than the majority I've worked for...

user55340

Can't say "no". But tension with other workers for productivity and velocity

user55340

20:43

And it goes the other way too. I like knowing I can take s vacation when I want with proper notifications

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT of course. I wouldn't take a sweatshop job anymore. There was that time in my life, and that chapter is now closed. I definitely understand both sides of that coin.

user55340

Startup? You get a 2 month sabbatical after going public.

user55340

Thus... A cultural fit issue.

psr

21:30

@JimmyHoffa I say nachos should have cheese.

@JimmyHoffa Yet again those lean software methodologies are tragically misunderstood.

user55340

Btw, anyone following the RMS tantrum about emacs and lldb?

user55340

lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00274.html

user55340

Eric Raymond to RMS: lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00465.html

enderland

One of my coworkers was talking about that today, heh

user55340

RMS philos is getting on the way of gcc causing it to fall behind clang.

user55340

21:39

Rms wants it to be monolithic so that you can't use it easily as parts (creating static analyzers and the like)

user55340

Clang goes the other way - can easily get intermediate stages so other tools can hook in. Much better for ides

user55340

But ide might not be gpl. Oh no! Can't let that happen with gcc

user114359

I make a point of not following anything RMS says. He did a good job starting the FSF, now he needs to shut his mouth and let people with better hygiene and less paranoia do their jobs.

user55340

So... Monolith gcc. Falling behind with tech. Cut off nose of compatibility to spite the non-gpl mole on the cheek. Making gpl tools less useful

user55340

@Snowman lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00360.html

user55340

21:45

And read (not rms) lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00516.html

psr

@MichaelT So, users should have the freedom to modify gcc anyway they like - and it should be technically infeasible to do so?

user55340

On philos conflict: lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00577.html

user55340

@psr yep. You need to link to gcc to be useful. That makes your app gpl. Can't do arms length work with gcc. Or plugins.

user55340

With clang and llvm, you can link with bsd. You can write plugins. You can write Xcode that is closed that works meaningfully with it. Runs against rms philos

user114359

FSF are arguing about how to arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

psr

21:54

On a not exactly related note, I've been waiting a license something like "MIT, but you may not distribute it to any company partially or completely owned by Oracle, including Oracle". Or whoever the author has a gripe with.

user114359

I am pretty sure Oracle is owned and operated by the devil.

user55340

@Snowman they are making tech architecture decisions based on politics rather than what will create the best product

user114359

They make tech architecture decisions based on how best to lock in customers then extort them for huge support contracts and expensive training.

user114359

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Oracle&defid=6408554

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman they should all be arranged in concentric circles around which part of the ocean will hit the deck first, so they can all dive head first into their frozen demise.

user55340

22:03

@psr json license has "don't be evil". Big company (Ibm?) asked for specific exception.

psr

@MichaelT I remember that. It specifically exempts their "minions" as well.

@Snowman I had not realized it was an acronym.

user114359

@psr not officially, that is urban dictionary after all, but it is a good one.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr you know...this gives me an interesting thought... it would be great to start releasing software with licenses that are MIT or BSD or whatever, + demanding totally arbitrary things... BSD with an extra clause "and before any usage of said software is in compliance with this license, the user must chase a bird through a field."

Simon André Forsberg

Are you sure that the filter on @Duga was a good idea?

in Duga's Playground, 52 mins ago, by Duga

Only if you're a terrible programmer who wants to help other programmers become even worse. — Puppy 1 min ago

user55340

@GlenH7 tangent. Look at bottom of p.se or so. Other se sites. Technology. Programmers is top of col 2... Right next to SO.

Jimmy Hoffa

22:09

@AgiHammerthief you asked for a surefire/proven way to simplify code. There are no sure things, no perfect guaranteed way to simplify code. If there was you'd just apply it ad nauseum and all code would be reduced to it's most concise form.... Clearly there can be no such thing. — Jimmy Hoffa 9 mins ago

I hate when people make absolutist claims and then complain about my absolutist responses...

I know absolutist questions are always X/Y problems, but don't give me crap when I give you X because it's what you asked for. Edit your question and tell me you misspoke... alternatively, just buy me a scotch and chase a bird through a field.

user114359

I would prefer a license that says you can modify my software but only if you buy me dinner first.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman that's actually a thing though, the buy me a beer/dinner what have you is not altogether uncommon. I can buy my own dinner, but I can't provide myself entertainment the likes of which imagining people actually following my weird clauses would provide. "To comply with this license, you must call the nearest petstore and try to buy a dinosaur in a russian accent."

user114359

I do accept payment through the Taco Bell app, Feel free to place an order at my local TB in my name.

user114359

@JimmyHoffa that's hilarious. I have an urge to drink a few beers and wander into a pet store to buy a Velociraptor now.

user114359

I wonder if they can hook me up with someone to train my new predator not to eat me or my cats?

user55340

22:17

Cuy

Cuy may refer to: the animal and the meat of a guinea pig in the Andean regions of South America, a traditional food of Peruvian, Colombian, and Ecuadorian Andean people. The IATA airport code for Cue Airport in Western Australia Cuy is the name or part of the name of several communes in France: Cuy, Oise, in the Oise département Cuy, Yonne, in the Yonne département Cuy-Saint-Fiacre, in the Seine-Maritime département == See also == Cuyahoga (disambiguation)...

user55340

Often deep fried

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT the guinea pig? I never saw it deep-fried, it was always cooked on a grill served on a stick like a shish kabob or those little hens you can get

user55340

@Snowman s/beer/vodka/ - need Russian accent

user114359

Reminds me of this: xkcd.com/135

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT to emphasize the likeness it'd be best to bring a potato and use it for pointing at things/people while making your exaggerated gestures

user55340

22:19

@JimmyHoffa sometimes fried. Sometimes grilled.

user55340

Would post images... But... Little guys crispy may be less than work ideal.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT they always had teeth and claws still on when I saw them, yeah not something everyone appreciates seeing

I would have grabbed one to try were it not for the claws

user55340

When searching for xml standards I'm working with, Pokemon is #4 result in Google.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa try some "fresh octopus" in Japan.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT "fresh" ? I like the fried stuff alright, but...iduno...

user55340

22:26

Chopped up recently, but reflexes (suction) still active.

user55340

Prying off inside of mouth is fun for some.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT O_o this is not quite making it on my to-do list...

psr

@Snowman In the sense that it's a bird chasing you through a field?

user114359

@psr no, the dinosaurs

psr

@JimmyHoffa Well, it would be fun to take, say, IBM to court and watch them produce video of legal interns chasing bird through a field. Fun for a while, until they sued you into bankruptcy over something or other.

user55340

22:37

Birds are dinosaurs.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I have a healthy imagination, I don't need video evidence.

psr

@Snowman NO, THE DINASOURS!

user55340

Extinction of all dinos! One visit to kfc at a time!

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT dinosaurs are a renewable resource, all this nonsense about petrol shortages would go away if KFC factories just drilled quarter-mile deep holes beneath them to put all the bones from their boneless wings.

user55340

... Or put the used fry oil in thief car to go home.

user55340

22:41

Thief - their

user55340

Can't correct on mobile

durron597

@MichaelT Or used the power from the chickens running before slaughter to power the generators

user55340

Before or after head removal?

durron597

@MichaelT both, obviously

user55340

Got a share point default warning of suspicious file (it may contain macros) when opening requirements doc. Yup. I'm always wary of changing requirements.

user114359

22:54

I'm always wary of SharePoint.

enderland

23:05

I try to flee from SharePoint like it's the grim reaper

Jimmy Hoffa

23:33

@psr Does left recursion require backtracking? Is that why it's preferable to only allow right recursion?

like how foldl vs. foldr have different runtime requirements?

Ampt

you should only use recursion inside of a lazy-loaded-parser-combinator-even-odded-recursion monad

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt pfft drive the train faster

enderland

CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

just don't hit any SUVs

durron597

psr

@JimmyHoffa Not exactly - some parsers, such as PEG.js, aren't smart enough to deal with left recursion at all and would infinite loop if it didn't detect such conditions on parsing the language definition, prior to parsing the actual input.

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