The Whiteboard

maple_shaft

00:25

Chat Appropriate Question: I escaped the hell I was working for in a developer group that really didn't write software. They basically did high level support for legacy systems with the occasional 1 LOC bug fix, and then babysat WebSphere MQ queues. My dad works for a bank and he told me about a really high profile project that his old boss was put in charge of...

... he was looking to assemble the dream team and the interview had me intrigued. The technical challenges tossed at me were extremely difficult but fascinating. I thought that I did average but then was told that the architect who challenged me claimed I was the most qualified candidate he has interviewed in a very long time...

.. they threw an obscene offer, 20% more than I am making now. We can afford now for my wife to stay at home and still have money for savings. I was on cloud 9. 2 weeks in though I am horrified at what I got myself into. I found that there is literally nothing for me to do. No active projects, no software to write that I can see. I am lead developer on a project that is literally just installing and configuring a vendor product, but I wasn't allowed to actually do any ...

... installing or anything like that, they had strict political teams for doing stuff like that. As far as I can tell I reviewed requirements and made recommendations on test cases. I thought that surely I would be responsible for exposing web services for this product to other areas of the bank or other interoperability, only to find that there is an ESB team that vigorously claims all responsibility for ALL of that work

... I find myself wondering, WHY THE HELL AM I HERE?!!

The other day I exported a list of codes from the database into a searchable excel file because I was bored, and people are treating me like a genius hero, but I didn't actually do anything special. I see this other team doing interesting SOA architecture, design and implementation and I am insanely jealous or something, I cant describe the feeling.

It is like a wounded pride, knowing that I am a star player but being forced to sit on the bench while the replacement squad is on the field having all the fun. I have my uniform on, I am ready to go...

I talked to my boss about my concerns but he gave very short and very vague answers saying, Don't worry, there is work coming, just you wait. It is kind of hard to trust him because I get the impression that he doesn't have the vaguest idea in the world what a software engineer really does!

So I am unhappy, and it is not as if I can just leave because I will never make this kind of money anywhere else, not in this city and family ties prevent me from leaving. My dad says he thinks I am on the management track and am being groomed for the good ol' boys club. I don't know if I want to be bored and rich, just a political appointment.

So what should I do? Is this normal in the bank? What are your thoughts on my situation?

I welcome any and all opinions.

user41796

00:51

@maple_shaft before I answer, I have to self-promote my little rant:

user41796

0

A: call complex mathy Fotran from Java

You've got an XY problem here. The only time I have heard of a company doing what you're suggesting is when they have an existing legacy application that is too expensive too port. What you're suggesting is the opposite - you're going to create an expensive, difficult to maintain, legacy appl...

user41796

Okay, now that I've got self-promotion out of the way...

user41796

That's pretty much on-par for a banking or insurance type of institution

user41796

Sorry to rain on the hopes and the parade.

user41796

But finance & insurance generally do a crap job of balancing out work levels. Once the project kicks into full gear, then you'll definitely be busy. But learning how to hurry-up-and-wait is a career skill for those fields.

user41796

00:53

Utilities are the same way, but they don't pay anywhere near as well.

user41796

So, @maple_shaft, what I'd really recommend doing is flipping the situation around.

user41796

What would you want to do knowing that your job is secure, the pay is great, and you've got significant downtime before the next big project is approved?

user41796

That becomes a very intriguing question to play with if you think about it. And there are huge bonus points if some of the things you want to do in this quiet cycle end up being really good for the company.

user55340

01:14

Quiet cycles at big companies are excellent opportunities to improve one's knowledge.

user55340

Ask about small things that can be done... they like excel? Great. Find a report that they're doing by hand and automate it using a language (that is approved for in-house development) that you're not 100% familiar with and see what you can do.

user55340

Find a process that could use some automation in it. Are they using excel for bug tracking (true story, Employer^^ did until very recently) - offer to do a technology demo for a few different bug trackers and how they can improve the quality of life for both devs and managers.

user55340

@maple_shaft Durring exhibition games, they often let the second string play first... just to see how they preform. If you have your stars always playing, then when you do need to call in the second string you don't know if you've got a dud (or someone who should be a star too... or someone in the wrong position...)

user55340

01:46

btw, @GlenH7 and @ThomasOwens did you read the most recent Codeless Code (A Bridge to Nowhere)?

maple_shaft

@MichaelT Wow... thank you

I feel like you and @GlenH7 talked me off a ledge there

user55340

Heh... btw, get a copy of Slack.

user55340

amazon.com/Slack-Getting-Burnout-Busywork-Efficiency/dp/…

user55340

Key point from the summary:

user55340

> Slack allows for change, fosters creativity, promotes quality, and, above all, produces growth

maple_shaft

01:48

@MichaelT Wow

thats very appropriate

user55340

When you have the time, the slack in the schedule - look at those things for what to do.

maple_shaft

My boss was given free reign to try Agile for the first time in the banks history

but it is failing because we are completely restricted

in every conceivable way by company policy

user55340

Tom DeMarco is one of those Great Names in books.

user55340

Get a copy of the book for your boss to?

maple_shaft

I always felt weird about buying books for my boss

it is like an underhanded way of telling him/her they are doing something wrong, or they are being stupid :)

user55340

01:50

At Employer^^, I got copies of Peopleware, Slack, and Deathmarch for my boss, and my director...

user55340

Unfortunately, they didn't take the hint with that last book and everyone who was on the team at the time has left.

maple_shaft

My one friend bought Mythical Man Month for his boss, she actually learned a lot.

user55340

Slack, however, is a book that is meant to be accessible.

user55340

Its stories, anecdotes... the evils of Microsoft Office.

maple_shaft

Are you kidding? I actually MISS Outlook

Lotus Notes is an abomination from hell

user55340

01:52

The evils of MS Office: 20 years ago, you'd have a secretary for a manager who's job it was to schedule meetings, answer routine emails, write up notes, make spreadsheets and such.

user55340

And by doing so, the manager had time to do things like manage and some slack in the schedule for when things went wrong and more time was needed.

maple_shaft

Heh.

user55340

However, with MS Office, managers can now write up reports almost as good as the secretary did, and spreadsheets... and schedule meetings themselves. If there is still a secretary in the office he or she is now an 'administrative assistant' and likely only for directors or the CIO.

maple_shaft

Well I think IT is going to be downfall of mankind

user55340

And so, the managers have no more slack in their schedule. They're in meetings all the time, and when they aren't in meetings are trying to figure out what emails to send out. And when something blows up, they're the next to last to know about it.

maple_shaft

01:54

lol yeah because their inbox always has 600 unread messages in it!

thats like every manager ever

user55340

Thus, as good as MS Office is for software - and it does quite a bit - its awful for managers because it stole all their time away from them by making their secretaries redundant.

maple_shaft

that and meeting culture

user55340

So sure you saved some money by cutting back on secretaries and administrative assistants... but you've lost a great deal of flexibility in the manager... they're not around their people to find out whats going on. They may see their people 15m/day in a standup and then 1h/week in another meeting.

user55340

So... one of the stories of Slack.

maple_shaft

But seriously @MichaelT thanks for pointing out that thing about starting the second string on the field early in the game

I never thought about it that way before

user55340

01:57

The second string some day will be the first string. But you've got to let them play (and make mistakes, and fix them).

user55340

(Slack is on iBooks? Well... there's another purchase...)

maple_shaft

yeah! Why am I so worried! I know I can run with them, my skills are sharp, I am smart

He wanted me badly enough to offer me the highest possible salary for my title

user55340

Ok... got a copy of it for there... (I gave away all my other copies)... I can't lose my ebook accidentally.

maple_shaft

he did that for a reason. I will keep up with what they are working on, be open to help them, be seen getting involved and keep doing helpful little things for people. People seem to like me

Well good night... I can rest easy now. Thanks for recommending that book. I will take a look.

user55340

(heh... just remembered.. chapter 9 is all about overtime)

Yannis Rizos

09:04

> Did I mention I also write poetry?

Oded

Claims he is 10. Gonna have to nuke the account.

enderland

12:48

@MichaelT I think I'm going to request this from my internal library

user55340

13:57

21

Q: C# is irritating? English too? NO!

I was browsing on Stack Overflow, when I came across this advertisement of Portuguese beta Stack Overflow: Translation: C# is irritating. English too. stackoverflow beta in Portuguese Open to the public Is this advertisement? C# isn't a bit irritating, and English too (although I think ...

user55340

Yeah, someone should change it from C# to PHP — PeterJ May 30 at 12:10

Oded

lol

user55340

Someone's gotta patrol MSO for the wrong info about P.SE.

user55340

I think Programmers needs a different name to avoid confusion. — Keith 20 hours ago

user55340

@Keith There is quite a bit of history and the question of what Programmers.SE should be named. Short version - its not changing. Long version: Change the name of Programmers to something that more accurately reflects the site scope? and then go read all the linked questions to that one. — MichaelT 5 mins ago

user55340

13:59

There are lots of people who were 'active' on P.SE (for example) 3 years ago, but haven't been back since. They occasionally suggest reposting on P.SE in comments and are most always wrong. I would dread seeing the results of if they could vote to migrate instead of just leaving incorrect comments. — MichaelT 20 hours ago

user55340

Programmers.SE is not for the 'not constructive' or 'thread' like questions. This is why there is no migration path from SO to P.SE. Please read Please stop using Programmers.SE as your toilet bowl. I would also suggest giving How can I encourage Stack Overflow to rein in the 'subjective' vigilantes? a read for a bit of the history. But, please, no - P.SE is not for not constructive. — MichaelT 10 hours ago

Ampt

14:11

wait. Meta.Stackoverflow != meta.Stackexchange?

enderland

@Ampt That's a lie, almost all meta.StackExchange posts are still on Meta.SO

user55340

Historical MSO posts often still remain on MSE, unless they are specifically applicable to the current MSO (things like the question checklist meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/260648/… ) got migrated.

user55340

But now, MSO is just about SO and avoids overwhelming the smaller sites trying to raise issues on MSE.

user55340

Also, by making MSO specifically MSO, they get the 'Hot Meta Posts' on the side, which... well... there's a lot of whining there.

Ampt

interesting

enderland

14:23

No where anywhere near as many people frequent meta.SE as do meta.SO though

Ampt

14:47

May be coming off the bench on friday

woo woooo

user55340

@enderland Correct... and that means that the issues of "how can migrations be done better" or "expire expired closed votes" that are network wide things are not lost in the noise of "should we get rid of the 'dark' tag?"

user55340

It also means things like "why are you all so mean?" remains a SO rant rather than an SE rant.

user55340

Tell you what, I'll be there in October - will take some photos for you then ;) @sha — Oded ♦ 3 hours ago

user55340

Siri, remind me to remind @Oded to take photographs in October

Oded

:P

user55340

15:01

Ampt

siri can read your whiteboard messages?

are you dictating to us via siri?

user55340

Siri, remind me to smack @Ampt when arriving in Chicago.

enderland

@MichaelT Conversely, no where near as many people read them

Ampt

@MichaelT remind her to bring change when you come

user55340

@Ampt You need every nickel you can get when saving up to buy your own copy...

Ampt

15:05

@MichaelT you better believe it. 200 bucks! 200!!

August 8th is coming faster than I want QQ

user55340

At least it won't be as visible as getting a new laptop.

Ampt

@MichaelT Hahahaha you read my mind

user55340

Or adding 20 games to your Steam library... (cursed summer sale)

Ampt

@MichaelT I shielded my eyes from our Lord Gaben's glory for fear of retribution from she-who-must-not-be-named

(But I did get a few things for really really cheap)

enderland

@ShadowWizard copy/paste doesn't work as well IRL... — enderland 2 mins ago

@enderland easy enough with 3D printers. ;-) — Shadow Wizard 38 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

15:21

@RobertHarvey higher order function = function that takes or returns a function. First-class function is just a function as a variable.

add = function(a, b) { return function() { a + b } }

^--That's a higher order function because it returns a function

user55340

In the perl world, anything that takes a {} as a parameter.

user55340

@sorted = map  { $_->[0] }
          sort { $a->[1] <=> $b->[1] } # use numeric comparison
          map  { [$_, length($_)] }    # calculate the length of the string
               @unsorted;

Jimmy Hoffa

apply = function(f, x) { return f(x); }

^--that's a higher order function because it takes a function as a parameter

user55340

The {} are anonymous functions there.

user55340

Related: How A Function Becomes Higher Order at PerlMonks.

user55340

15:25

Related higher-order-functions on SO.

enderland

15:50

I was actually reading questions on programmers.stackexchange for two hours instead of doing office work. — TheIndependentAquarius 18 mins ago

You monsters!

n00b

I needed someplace to rant; does deploying through an SEP process sometimes piss you off? I mean if you manage your own servers, and you have to deploy a simply peice of code, which you know works exactly like it should , and will only take a couple minutes to deploy and test, and you can backup the change in a matter of minutes, and nobody is using the system (or they have been warned) then why the hell do i need 3 sign offs and an hour meeting to discuss it

just let me deploy the damn code. I know WTF im doing

there should be some kind of confidence deploy allowed. f-up and you are not allowed to do another confidence deploy for a year. otherwise, you get a bonus for saving everybodies time

Ampt

Why are you deploying such a small piece? Is it an emergency situation?

can you just save up a week(/month/3months) worth of work and deploy it all at once?

If these servers are customer facing at all, there is a high cost of failure beyond a bruised ego. It could cost time/money/goodwill, none of which is easily replaced

if you're dicking with your build server then by all means, you're probably over doing it

enderland

this is why my project is deployed on a development server right now rather than production. I lose all ability to do anything directly otherwise

Ampt

not saying that it's always necessary, but if you're not careful you could really mess things up

n00b

not dicking just deploying a small fix that somebody overlooked

Ampt

16:03

if it's not high-priority, why not put it in with a larger release?

n00b

it is high priority

which is why i should be able to just put it in

Ampt

shouldn't a high-priority fix be reviewed and tested before it's deployed?

enderland

@n00b My guess is at some point in the past, you had someone similar to yourself push a "fix" out that broke things and caused a lot of trouble, so now there is a formalized process to avoid that at all costs

n00b

i tested and reviewed it

I guess that makes sense

Ampt

So the idea is that one person can develop, test, review, and deploy a fix on their own?

n00b

16:05

noobs. all of them.

hell yea

if they know what they are doing

Ampt

no offense but that sounds like a recipe for disaster.

n00b

when you work with accountants turned coders sure

Ampt

if you think you're incapable of mistakes, I've got some bad news ;)

n00b

if it were a big change i wouldnt object. its just a small change thats concentrated

i guess thats subjective and hard to measure. so yea i get ya

Ampt

but you yourself said it's high priority, so it's obviously changing something major, or it wouldn't be high priority right?

n00b

16:07

its actually just a db function that somebody failed to deploy

in this particular instance

enderland

@n00b Keep in mind many, many, many "small fixes" or "small changes" have completely and utterly broken the systems they get deployed into

Ampt

Again, I'm not defending the process you go through, it may, infact, be complete overkill

hard to say without your situation

but I know that giving one dev the ability to make changes in the codebase, test them himself, review it himself, and deploy it himself, with no oversight, is a recipe for disaster

I don't care if it's Jon skeet making the changes

n00b

Yea, your probably right. thanks for the perspective gents. I guess I'm just impatient

with a small ego ;)

Ampt

Again though, it depends on the scale and size of what you're doing. You take out the local food pantry website for an hour, it's not a big deal, you take down Chevy for 10 minutes and you're looking at a press release, investigation, analysis of sales loss, etc. etc.

@n00b no problem :) that's what we're here for (I think)

user55340

@n00b thinkgeek.com/product/f141

user55340

16:18

user41796

@n00b Depending upon the environment you're in, there may be regulatory requirements that necessitate having a deployment process as you described. And to be honest, it's fairly common in "big environments" that the folk who built or tested the code are never allowed to deploy.

user41796

As much as I despise unnecessary process, my question to you would be "what failed in the existing process that allowed that stored proc to not be deployed in the first place?"

user41796

And if you don't follow the process for this fix that was missed, people won't know to ask that question.

user55340

@Ampt Remind me to tell you about the ~$16k packages of tiles, the savings on each one of them of ~$15,963... "You saved $23,456,789" on the receipt and all the fun from the fallout of that.

user55340

That was a 'little change'

user41796

16:23

one line changes can shut down entire websites. Heck, even one character changes can do that

user15026

@MichaelT o.O

user41796

@MichaelT Those must have been some pretty fancy tiles....

user55340

@GlenH7 At Employer^^, had to get sign offs from dev director, qa director, and ops director to do an outside of release window release of any code.

user41796

With as much $$$ as was at stake? Heck yeah, I'd require that too

user55340

@GlenH7 Had to do with package/each recombination of things (you could buy them in a package or as individual... but and if the package was 10, and you bought 15 individual, the receipt would mark it as a package and 5... and then you could have sales on "up to 7" so a package of 10 would get changed to 7 each on sale and 3 each normal..." and all of that broke spetacuarlly.

user55340

16:26

The odd bit was that the receipt was actually right... it had the final total correct and billed the correct amount.

user41796

I can't even follow the logic as you just explained it... :-)

user55340

@GlenH7 ... neither could we most of the time.

user41796

The "you saved" bit is just fluff but can leave a lot of egg on your face

user55340

Lets say you are buying a 6 bottles of Pepsi. And the price for a package of 6 is exactly 6x the price of one bottle.

user55340

There's a sale... "Buy 8 bottles of Pepsi, get 1 free". You've got 2x 6x packages. So we break it down into 12 bottles, apply the '8 get 1 free' and then have on the receipt "1 package of 6 bottles of pepsi (normal price), 5 bottles of pepsi (normal price), 1 bottle of pepsi (free)"

user55340

16:30

The bug was in in splitting the package of 6 out into eaches, applying some other sale logic on it, and then recombining it back into a package.

user41796

I'd take the simple route and just not allow that. :-)

user55340

@GlenH7 Go read the bridge to nowhere.

user55340

You 'Engineers' have funny ideas at times.

user41796

40 secs ago, by GlenH7

I'd take the simple route and just not allow that. :-)

user41796

Who do you think I empathized with in that story?

user55340

16:31

heh

user41796

Was chatting with one of our heads of construction yesterday

user55340

So... anyways... the amount we billed was correct and we went "hmm - thats odd... we'll look into it"

user55340

Then we started getting reports from other departments of strange things happening.

user41796

And I realized that a typical software project has all of the "worst case war stories" that regular construction folk take years to accumulate.

user55340

One store said the general manager got an automated message to send everyone home because they just lost $23M and can't make payroll.

user55340

16:32

... oops.

user41796

That's hilarious!

user55340

Turned out the "you saved $23M" bit was actually going through the system... and it thought someone gave a discount of $23M on various products.

user55340

There were other problems out there too... some systems wouldn't accept prices going through the system that were over some value on a single sku and silently rejected them.

user55340

Got it sorted out... but that was a "WTF?!" and "we need to do a rollback" (which was actually a roll forward to the old code - reversing version numbers was a bit of a headache).

user41796

Oh the voodoo that's done in order to keep systems alive....

enderland

16:37

@GlenH7 I remember reading an article, I think from here, talking about software vs construction

user55340

Fortunately, Employer^^ has a tiered release structure. This release only hit 6 stores... and had a very precise trigger for its bug to manifest. It sat quiet for a week (the time between the 2 store release and the 6 store release) because it needed a specific sale / combination to be there.

user41796

@enderland It's in a question MainMa asked a while back

user55340

This happened on Friday when the sale started... the all store release was scheduled to go out the next night.

user41796

Hit the big red abort button on that one!

user55340

Yep. It was a "find the code, back it out, push the 6 store release tonight and get QA to do more testing"

user55340

16:40

There was a odd ripple a year later when the 'estimated sales' for the department based on historical data said "This department should be able to sell $1B based on last year's numbers for the day" which caused some department managers to yell quite loudly "you want us to sell how many stores worth of inventory today?"

user55340

horror-stories

enderland

@GlenH7 stevestreeting.com/2011/06/16/…

user41796

@MichaelT With the right sale and careful inventory planning... :-)

user41796

> but I’m also very glad to be free of it now.

user41796

I kind of miss it, TBH. Or more accurately, I miss aspects of working on a "big app."

enderland

16:54

> Changes in a software project tend to be perceived as ‘just a little tweak’ by those requesting it, which tends to mean tolerance for schedule impact is lower, and indeed the potential for interaction between changes in unexpected ways is often overlooked.

user41796

There were days where I'd start the conversations with our team over in Germany and end the day with a team in Australia.

enderland

That's relevant to a the conversation with @n00b earlier, too

In unrelated news, I quoted this nearly verbatim to a RL friend of mine yesterday asking about job stuff

24 hours ago, by enderland

Dwelling on "I don't want to be fired" is going to cause you a lot of unnecessary stress too

user41796

It really does

user41796

Can be a hard fact to accept, but it's a bad thing to dwell on. Just get on with it and do your best.

user55340

Slack TOC:
Madmen in the Halls
Busyness
The Myth of the Fungible Resource
When "Hurry Up" really means "Slow Down"
Managing Eve
Business instead of busyness
The cost of pressure
Agressive Schedules
Overtime
...

user55340

17:03

There's mention of a study in there about how knowledge workers "time to completion" is uncorrolated to "number of hours worked" but correlated to "number of days worked"

enderland

@MichaelT Heh, the real trick is convincing old school managers of this

user55340

@enderland Its coming to terms that "Taylorism" isn't appropriate for knowledge workers.

enderland

but if they just work longer they will be more productive

user55340

>
“In manufacturing, there are certainly local how-to standards. So a company that extrudes aluminum moldings, for example, would certainly want to adopt a standard way to run all its extrusion stations, regardless of which of the many different molding patterns is being extruded at each one. This standardization of manufacturing process was the particular interest of an early-twentieth-century mechanical engineer named Frederick Winslow Taylor. His 1911 book, The Principles of Scientific Management, set out to do for the human aspect of factory work what the principle of interchangeable pa…

enderland

@MichaelT this can be possible if you have a system which does things well (such as a POS system) and use good HCI

user55340

17:10

@enderland Cashiers aren't exactly "knowledge workers"

enderland

I guess there is a fair point that if your job even can become interchangeable you aren't a knowledge worker

user41796

@enderland I'm not sure I'd make that connection in that way

user41796

The custom or semi-custom software consulting model approaches the ability to treat developers as interchangeable widgets. But that doesn't mean those developers aren't knowledge workers.

enderland

@GlenH7 It's also not a very good way to treat them from a management perspective, at least in my perspective

user41796

That's a related but somewhat tangential aspect

user41796

17:15

I'll acknowledge that for many consultants their most valuable skill (to their employer) is the fact that they are billable

user55340

heh..

user55340

1

A: Stackoverflow how many questions in the site till now!

user41796

So I'm not exonerating anyone or any firm on that point

user41796

But it's really amazing to be able to fly out to a project and be semi-productive on day 1 because the project fairly well follows standards that are in place for setting up and running projects. Aka "the company way."

user55340

Consulting companies have spent quite a bit on training and the frameworks and processes and standards in use to make their developers interchangeable to a degree.

user55340

17:17

Much of the overseas outsourcing is based on that premise too.

user41796

> -1 for not addressing how many deleted questions there are.

user55340

@GlenH7 That would take dev access since we can't distinguish answers from questions in posts.

user41796

@MichaelT That's one of the big reasons why older, less trendy frameworks are used. The retooling cost can be enormous.

user55340

@GlenH7 (and that wooden bridge...)

enderland

@GlenH7 Or why a lot of companies are either stop on XP or just upgraded....

user41796

17:19

@MichaelT Actually, I think an SO mod can search through SO on "is:question isdeleted:yes" and find out how many deleted questions there are.

user41796

@enderland I'd argue that's a different issue.

user55340

As an aside, the real answer part of my question isn't the numbers... but rather the tabs that are highlighted.

user41796

M$ screwed up the standard upgrade cycle by releasing the unpolished turd known as Vista

user41796

When they fixed the problems with Vista and rebranded it as Win7, they had broken the cycle of "must upgrade to latest!"

user41796

and there isn't much within Win7 vs XP to compel C-level folks to shell out money and pay for upgrades

user41796

17:21

Then you add in the additional costs from having to upgrade all your corporate apps written to crap versions of IE and the cost appears insurmountable.

Ampt

ugh. Post lunch food coma is killing me

maybe no one would notice if I curled up under my desk for a pinch

2

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I find crashing tends to pass, just have to go slow for a bit while you wait it out, though it varies. Some days it takes 30 minutes to pass, some days 3 hours at which point I prefer a rockstar to the zombie code stare

user55340

17:37

@JimmyHoffa zombie rockstar? You mean like Keith Richards and Mick Jagger?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT rockstar is zombie repellant, something closer to Finntroll - awakens you from your staring contest with the for loop before you start resorting to eating other peoples brains as a means to sustenance, which is always a possible outcome from a food coma at work.

user55340

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT see, just the picture has made me more alert, say it with me everybody: "I will not eat brains today."

user55340

Employer^^, one of the infrastructure guys bought 5h energy in bulk and was able to resell them (cube store) for a profit at $2/bottle.

user41796

@MichaelT I don't want to cast stones, but I'm pretty sure those two didn't hit their zombie state through food comas.

user55340

17:42

btw, the Mtn Dew Kickstarters aren't at all bad.. they have a flavor that isn't offensive at 8am either.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 that cast sounds like an unsafe coerce to me, at least if you throw the stone something further up the stack might catch it...

Ampt

@GlenH7 but it does start with a Co

enderland

home roasted coffee >> energy drinks

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland home roasted?

user55340

@Ampt You need some BAWLS man!

Jimmy Hoffa

17:43

You roast your own beans?

user41796

@Ampt and I'm sure quite a few others....

enderland

@JimmyHoffa yeah

user55340

thinkgeek.com/product/2818

enderland

it's a hell of a lot better

user41796

@JimmyHoffa it's the 3rd wave of coffee

Jimmy Hoffa

17:43

@enderland holy shit that's awesome

enderland

it's a lot easier than you think, too

Jimmy Hoffa

Where do you get unroasted coffee beans?

user41796

@enderland - how often do you roast? once a week?

Ampt

@MichaelT the only thing that drink has going for it is it's marketing gimmick that makes grown men giggle like they're 14

Jimmy Hoffa

Nah I know, it's supposed to be super easy

enderland

17:44

@GlenH7 depends, it takes 5-10 minutes for close to a mason jar worth, they are more awesome fresh obviously so I like to only roast once a week at most

Pretty cheap too - the last batch of green coffee beans was about $6.50/lb shipped

user41796

@enderland I have been toying with returning to my coffee snobbery

Ampt

speaking of DIY foods: Anyone know what cut of meat is best for making jerky?

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland where do you get them?

user41796

As I've declined into drinking just drip at home

enderland

@JimmyHoffa sweet marias - sweetmarias.com/store

user41796

17:44

@Ampt higher fat content is going to be better

user41796

otherwise it gets really freaking tough and chewy

Ampt

@GlenH7 tough and chewy is the goal man. It's jerky!

enderland

the roaster we (my roommate and I) use is a popcorn airpopper we got at good will for about $2

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt for you, I would only suggest cow butt, it's likely your favorite if I had to guess

enderland

there are better ones, ours burns it hardcore if you don't stir while roasting

user55340

17:45

Back in college, the student union would sell rice crispy bricks (not quite that tough, but about that size) for a cheap price... one guy in the lab would get one and gnaw on it throughout the day.

user41796

I'm also trying to decide what type of brewing I want to switch to

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa yeah we did the round roast first

user41796

part of the problem is I love the convenience of "push button & go away" with the drip coffee maker

Ampt

it turned out pretty good

wasn't sure if there was anything better

enderland

@GlenH7 I always do pour over with an electric water heater

Jimmy Hoffa

17:47

sweetmarias.com/store/coffee-list/indonesia-and-asia/…

user41796

I've been really impressed with the cups I've had that way

Jimmy Hoffa

cool they have sumatran. Have you tried that by chance @enderland?

enderland

fairly smilar to your drip coffee but it just... tastes better, not sure if it's entirely psycholoigical or not

Jimmy Hoffa

Sumatran tends to be my favorite - strong earthy flavor with little to no bitterness, but very rich

enderland

@JimmyHoffa probably, we just get all sorts of coffee since all of it is good

they have a sampler pack which is nice, you get 4 or 8 pounds but 8 varieties

I don't think we got that specific one

user41796

17:48

The problem with most drip systems is poor control over water temperature

Jimmy Hoffa

French press FTW

enderland

@GlenH7 a friend of mine got an electric water heater with thermostat control, but he takes this to a different level than I do ha

user41796

Yeah, that's kind of the level I'm thinking of.... :-)

user41796

OTOH, I don't need another crazy hobby by any means

Jimmy Hoffa

but...what if you do need another crazy hobby...

user41796

17:51

I've got plenty sitting in wait at the moment.

enderland

It's not really that crazy either, if you drink coffee regularly (especially if you brew it at home)

I've given some thought to bringing a grinder/water heater to work

user41796

But if you were looking for one, getting into coffee is an epic hobby

enderland

and doing it AT work

it's a nice, fairly cost neutral hobby too

user41796

I've picked up a lot of free drinks because of my ability to tell the barista how the pull tasted and to give hints as to what they may have done wrong.

user55340

17:52

^^ for making coffee.

user55340

funraniumlabs.com/the-black-blood-of-the-earth/…

enderland

@GlenH7 I think the majority of the reason is "you overroasted the coffee and burned away the flavor"

Coffee should not taste burned

user41796

@MichaelT I think those are vacuum brews

user55340

>
The Black Blood of the Earth (or BBotE for short) is a cold vacuum extraction coffee concentrate. It was created by a diabetic with a sweet tooth out of his need for caffeine but without adding sugar and cream to cover the bitterness. While the goal was to make a rich, flavorful coffee full of delicious oils, caffeine was also concentrated as a pleasant surprise. According to back of the envelope rough estimates, the caffeine was concentrated about 40 times higher than normal drip coffee...so, drink responsibly. I recommend consuming no more than 100ml per DAY (3.5oz approx.)

user41796

@enderland Or they'll pull for too long

user41796

17:53

and then it gets bitter

user41796

@MichaelT cold vacuum extraction is a new one to me

user55340

Note: not cheap. shop.funraniumlabs.com

user55340

One review:

user55340

> I expected a big, brutal hit of coffee essence, the kind of bitter, concentrated punch that I imagined a super distilled, super caffeinated brew would pack. But I was wrong, and pleasantly surprised. The brew contained a ton of rich flavor — it tasted like a coffee roasting room smells — but there was no bitterness whatsoever. It was light on the palette, almost refreshing, with no acidity, seemingly the kind of thing I could drink all day…though this would be ill advised.

Ampt

Guy also sells some sick thermos-cups

dewers I believe they're called in the scientific circles

keep your drink cold (or warm) for literally hours

enderland

17:57

Another perk of roasting your own coffee is the decaf brews are considerably better than normal decaf coffee - I don't know what most people do to make coffee decaf but it sure as heck isn't universal

user55340

@Ampt brugomug.com

Ampt

Here's one of his magical steins

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Coffee's alkaloid content is known to give out while cold, the best decaffeinating process is a cold-water rinse for instance, the chemical decaffeination processes leave unwanted chemicals and is less thorough than the cold-water rinse

Ampt

@MichaelT his are made out of literal science equipment with little more than handles bolted on

Oded

Ooooo made with science!

Ampt

17:59

@Oded The more science the better!

user15026

@MichaelT I keep hearing about this and every time I shudder because I am so sensitive to caffeine that I feel like that coffee would kill me

Ampt

@AshleyNunn friend bought some once. that guy wasn't messing around when he made that warning

user55340

History of the stuff: funraniumlabs.com/the-black-blood-of-the-earth

Jimmy Hoffa

Decaffeination

Decaffeination is the act of removing caffeine from coffee beans, cocoa, tea leaves and other caffeine-containing materials. (While caffeine-free soft drinks are occasionally referred to as "decaffeinated", some are better termed "uncaffeinated": prepared without adding caffeine during production.) Despite removal of most caffeine, many decaffeinated drinks still have around 1–2% of the original caffeine remaining in them, and research has found that certain decaffeinated coffee drinks can contain around 20% of the original caffeine. In the case of coffee, various methods can be used. The process...

user15026

@Ampt Yeah, okay, then I better stay away

user55340

18:00

>
I also did an experiment with a batch of French Vanilla flavored coffee. As one might expect, an extraction process extracts things, such as flavoring oils. All the vanilla oil that had been added to the coffee was quite thoroughly extracted and completely saturated the initial filters. Of course, as I decanted the BBotE some of those oils volatilzed and left my kitchen/lab reeking as if it were a cathouse where all the ladies of negotiable affection rubbed themselves vigorously with International Cafe. I let the first filter dry out for a couple days and then, in the interest of science,…

user15026

@MichaelT O.o

user55340

> When Subject 1′s cup of unadulterated was half empty, he grabbed his water bottle and poured the remainder into his clear glass coffee cup. He looks at it and then puts his hand up because He Needs An Adult. He said with concern, “I added water but it didn’t change color.” We all wandered over to peek into the dark heart of his mug. Even diluted to 50% of the original strength, it is still as black, oily, and potentially lethal as a tar pit.

user41796

I do believe I have a new quest....

user55340

@GlenH7 "what is the highest concentration of caffeine I can get out of coffee?"

user55340

Wait, I did that wrong...

user41796

18:05

I'm in the middle of reading that bit, yes

user41796

:-)

user41796

And the idea of having a dewar or three laying around the house for drinks is very appealing

user41796

Science!!

Ampt

> I’ve made this stein using a bench top liquid nitrogen dewar flask. I’ve found dewars still holding good vacuum after 30 years. This is, for all intents and purposes, the very best thermos you’re ever going to find. It is quite common to fill these with liquid nitrogen, let it sit on the lab bench, and when you come back three days later there will still be liquid nitrogen in it.

user55340

> Q: What is your name?
A: Sir Glen of Programmers.
Q: What is your quest?
A: To find the highest concentration of caffeine available.
Q: What is your favorite color?
A: Black... as black as the grinds of the coffee allows. Vantablack if possible.

3

Jimmy Hoffa

18:06

@GlenH7 I think having a black grouse around the house would be more appealing than a dewar... just my two cents...

user41796

@JimmyHoffa True. Dewars falls apart too easily

user41796

(nice hijack, BTW)

Ampt

user55340

4

user55340

Good job google....

user41796

18:07

@Ampt Not sure I'll be able to test it that way as I lack ready access to liquid nitrogen

user41796

See, we start chatting about science and scotch, and the crowds start rolling in. The Whiteboard has the coolest conversation on SE.

Ampt

> By 2am, with compatriots dropping off due to the cocktails I’d prepared during all this, I stared into the heart of the stein and had to confront the despondent reality that fatigue might claim me before I finished this beer. A quick temp check told me that despite my drinking and no use of lid, there’d only been a .9 degree Celsius temperature gain from when I started 7 hours earlier.

- From his tale of attempting to finish off 4.3 liters of beer in one stein

(Pictured above for effect)

user41796

That's a lot of beer

Ampt

Picture of said 4.3 liter stein with humans for scale

user55340

@Ampt to meld all things together... you recall your question about jerky? They've got caffeinated beef jerky.

Ampt

18:15

@MichaelT why wouldn't they. This is 'Murica!

user55340

@GlenH7 fun bit with all this.... we can make done of @Ampt because if he buys any his GF will be "you spent how much for coffee?!"

Ampt

Link to the magical 4.3 liter, $515 stein of science

maybe I'll set up a kickstarter to buy it :P

user41796

I'm looking at dewars on fisher-scientific. He's not charging all that much more to throw a logo and a handle on those.

user41796

Seems that the liquid NO2 dewars are the best - they have a wide mouth design

Ampt

@GlenH7 guy seems like a straight shooter.

anyone who can drink 4.3 liters of beer in a night is alright in my book

user55340

18:22

Stein of Science on morning news

user55340

enderland

18:56

trello.com/jobs/developer

This has the best application process ever

user41796

@enderland color me sniped

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