The Whiteboard

Programmers

01:32

1

Q: How to reconcile guidelines, community opinion and moderation

First of all, I realize that this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam, so I apologize in advance if nothing fruitful comes of this. I strongly feel that there is a large disconnect between the community's understanding of the site's purposes and the collective understanding of the modera...

user2334

@mitchlindgren Ping

Mitch Lindgren

Hi there

I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with Stack Exchange chat

user2334

If you know IM or IRC, it works the same way.

Mitch Lindgren

Sounds good

user2334

There are a few blank spots in your analysis that should be noted, as the numbers you're providing don't have any context

Mitch Lindgren

01:43

I apologize if my question seems un-constructive. I asked it because I was reading some of the other ones you linked to and trying to figure out what I was missing about the guidelines and their enforcement, but I didn't see a lot of constructive discussion around the issues that were raised in those questions

What do you mean by context?

user2334

Well, what's the time frame of the data?

user2334

Is it from Day 1 to now?

Mitch Lindgren

To the best of my knowledge. I'm not an expert with the Stack Exchange query system either, but I basically did a "select score, count(score) from posts where closeddate is not null group by score order by score" for each site

user20683

I think the biggest issue is not the closing of stuff

user20683

I think it's insufficient guidelines for people on where they need to go ask the question.

user2334

01:46

@MitchLindgren The reason I ask is for two reasons: from September 1st to October 1st (the first month), Programmers.SE was operating under a different premise than it is now. This caused a huge number of questions to be closed, and we're still cleaning up to this day

Mitch Lindgren

@MarkTrapp I was not aware of that. That does somewhat invalidate my data

user20683

by which I mean people ask questions that shouldn't be asked here, those get closed (rightfully) but then they don't know where to go

Mitch Lindgren

@WorldEngineer I agree. I tried to frame my question in a neutral manner so as to promote discussion, but I think the mods are USUALLY not wrong in closing questions

user20683

So it's unclear to them whether they asked a bad question (typical), asked an off topic question (typical) or we're just hard asses(lies)

user2334

@MitchLindgren Those questions are broken windows: people see those, and think they're still on-topic. It's a real mess, and one of the main reasons why we have so many questions about the site's purpose

user20683

01:48

let me see if I have this straight

user20683

this site is for the discussion of coding practices and the theory of coding practices by veterans or at least someone with some level of practice experience/knowledge or at the very least a desire to learn that.

user2334

@MitchLindgren The other reason I ask about the time frame is the comparison to SO, which has data for 3 years, compared to our 11 months. It'd be interesting to compare the same timeframes, although I'm not sure how constructive that would be given 3 years of community building

user20683

it is not a code review site, a do homework site, a help solve problem x site or a gorilla vs shark site

Mitch Lindgren

@MarkTrapp Yeah, I had no idea about the paradigm shift, so to speak. That is probably a large part of the confusion

user20683

what was the paradigm shift?

Mitch Lindgren

01:51

And it's definitely difficult to compare data from an established site like SO against data from a relatively new site like Programmers...

Maybe it would be more accurate to compare the first year or so of Stack Overflow questions to the first year of Programmers questions

user2334

@MitchLindgren The one other thing to keep in mind is that you don't have access to deleted questions. Up until recently, we've been pretty conservative with not deleting questions to not rock the boat too much. Stack Overflow does not have that same reservation, and has hundreds of users who actively vote to delete trash.

user2334

@MitchLindgren The concern I have with that is that Stack Overflow has way more volume, and didn't have the community infrastructure we had in 2010 when it launched. There's likely tens of thousands of questions that should be closed or deleted, but no manpower to pull it off

user2334

24

Q: The Six Subjective Question Guidelines -- Enforcement Notice

Just a quick note here on meta to let everyone know we will be enforcing these six subjective question guidelines. Great subjective questions... inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”. tend to have long, not short, answers. have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone. invite sharing e...

discussion faq subjective moderation

Mitch Lindgren

Hm... so my data may paint a negative picture of the moderation on Programmers without necessarily being very accurate or useful. That was definitely not my intent

Any idea how I could improve it?

user2334

@MitchLindgren One way might be to look at the last month for Programmers.SE and another SE 2.0 site with similar volume. Gaming might be a good choice

user2334

01:55

There's still the qualitative problem, but at least you'd be comparing apples to other types of fruit

user20683

I'd look at somewhere like Math

user20683

Gaming has a fundamentally different character

user2334

Math is probably a good one, as I know it has similar issues with people not fully grasping the scope

Mitch Lindgren

@WorldEngineer I agree about Gaming, but I'm not sure Math works either... there's a fairly clear delineation of what is and isn't math

user20683

Everything is math

user20683

01:57

so yes, it's very clear

Mitch Lindgren

Haha... but generally math questions are completely un-subjective

user2334

Their moderation issues are about the level of expertise, but the volume might not be there: it's less than half Programmers

user20683

but there's no delineation

Mitch Lindgren

er, objective, I mean

user20683

math questions aren't completely objective

user20683

01:58

ask a mathematician about "Non-Standard Analysis" sometime

Mitch Lindgren

Not always, but they're certainly more objective on average than the types of questions asked on Programmers

I think the subjectivity is a big part of the issue

user20683

Or Cantor's original set theory

user20683

true

user20683

and I think a lot of people get hit over on SO

user20683

feel like they should have a say and go here as the next best thing

user20683

01:59

even though we aren't

user2334

@MitchLindgren Yeah, and unfortunately, Programmers.SE was the guinea pig in SE's attempt at subjectivity. Nearly every blog post about the subject is because of us :(

user2334

The not constructive close reason? Us. What not to ask in the FAQ on every site? Us.

user20683

Gorilla vs Shark

user2334

That one was SO, but definitely relates to us

user20683

I think part of the issue is question trees

Mitch Lindgren

02:01

Hm... maybe English? User base is at least on the same order of magnitude, and the level of subjectivity is more similar, I think

user20683

English has an astonishing answer rate

Mitch Lindgren

They have more than half as many questions with only a third of the users

user20683

100% far as I can tell

Charles Sprayberry

I like @MitchLindgren post about appropriate questions on programmers.se FAQ. Being a newbie, to SO and relative newbie to programming, I'm always confused as to whether or not a question belongs on: SO, programmers or sometimes even superuser

user2334

@MitchLindgren English has some issues with not closing enough

user2334

02:07

@MitchLindgren I think your answer, regarding highlighting good answers, is worth looking at, but I don't think we're ever going to put the issue of people not understanding P.SE's scope to bed. We generally get consensus when we talk about specific, actionable requests

user20683

I generally treat as thus, coding = SO, theory of coding = Pro, Usage of my computer = SU,

user2334

@WorldEngineer That's the intended distinction, in a nutshell. SO is for when you're at your compiler and need help, Programmers is when you're at the writeboard trying to work out a problem

Charles Sprayberry

@WorldEngineer The problem I personally encountered with SO and SU is a vim question. If you look at SO there are tons of vim questions, to a newcomer it would seem appropriate for vim questions to be asked there.

Mitch Lindgren

@MarkTrapp I agree, there's no way that it can be completely solved. It relies too much on users and there will always be people too lazy or unwilling to understand the requirements. But I DO think we can do better than 1 in 5 questions closed, and I'm not saying that as a shot at you guys

user20683

My usual prequestion is "Would my question be answerable by a talented amateur"

user20683

02:09

if yes, then SO, if no then PR

Mitch Lindgren

I think you're doing a great job, but further and more accessible clarification of the purpose of the site is needed

user20683

I do think ESL gets in the way a lot

Charles Sprayberry

ESL?

user20683

I mean it's great that people are asking questions but I've had to basically obliterate posts to get them readable before

user20683

English as a Second Language

Charles Sprayberry

02:10

ahh, english second lang-

Mitch Lindgren

Preliminary results from English: 47.47% of closed questions are <= 0 points, 6.27% are >= 5

user20683

note that I don't have tons of SO rep

user20683

largely due to not needing to ask coding questions in the summer

user20683

incidently because it's a sort of Gorilla Shark question

user20683

AI or Databases?

user20683

02:13

I've the opportunity to take either via Stanford's free offerings but only time for one

user20683

I kinda feel like Databases should be on my transcript "officially" where as AI is good to know but no need for hard currency

Charles Sprayberry

Is there anything lower-level community members can do to help the situation with P.SE? I understand it has issues but there is also invaluable information hidden within it. Particularly for people who have never been exposed to professional-level development.

user20683

I know I've learned a hell of a lot in the last two months here

user2334

@MitchLindgren Well let's discuss specific things we can do to improve the site: every site can use improvement. Pointing out there's 1 in 5 questions closed and that's a problem so let's solve it already is not really constructive

user2334

If it was something we could solve in one question, we would've already done it

user20683

02:15

That's a bad project manager practice

user20683

here are numbers: solve numbers

user20683

if you know integration you realize why this is hard in very explicit ways

Charles Sprayberry

I've always saw SO as the place to solve problems and P.SE as the place to learn to be a better programmer.

Mitch Lindgren

Gaming: 47.55% <= 0, 9.18% >= 5

@WorldEngineer That's why I'm not a Project Manager :D

user20683

Gaming has certain issues with game recs and people wanting strategy discussions

user2334

02:17

@MitchLindgren We can easily bring the number down by not closing questions for 6 months. Obviously the problem doesn't go away.

user20683

we have to take the imperative model to this, functional is too abstract :P

user20683

if this do this, not answer = x, go get to x

Mitch Lindgren

@MarkTrapp My intent with the numbers was simply to illustrate that there is room for improvement. Unfortunately I can't find the question now, nor do I remember if it was a mod who answered it, but I remember reading one where the topmost answer was basically "I don't think the guidelines/FAQ need to be improved."

user2334

@MitchLindgren Whoever said that is on crack :P

user2334

We have a tag on meta, faq-proposed specifically for improving the FAQ

user2334

02:23

If you look at the home page of meta, there are several questions about how we can improve our guidance about specific issues

user20683

is it possible to add options to migrate to IT Sec or other such sites?

user2334

I think a question about how we can feature good questions in our FAQ is a good one. I'm not sure what good is going to come up the question there now.

user20683

we do get quite a few of those

Mitch Lindgren

I'm going to edit my question to try to improve it a bit...

user2334

@WorldEngineer They're added as they're needed. In the last 90 days, we've only migrated 8 to IT Sec

user2334

02:27

@MitchLindgren Another thing to consider is that we're in the middle of a cleanup: deleting old, off-topic questions, closing questions that slipped through the cracks, etc. in the hope that we can get rid of the broken windows

user20683

@MarkTrapp I see

Mitch Lindgren

I have edited my question to add more data and try to remove some of the bits that might result in a less constructive discussion

Incidentally, I have a comment in my inbox which doesn't seem to exist on the question page. Did the comment just get deleted, or what?

user20683

That was me

user20683

I ran out of space and realized that it was kinda just me agreeing with you

user20683

so I popped in here instead

user2334

02:35

@MitchLindgren There doesn't seem to be any indication of context behind the numbers as we discussed here.

Mitch Lindgren

I'll fix that

user2334

@MitchLindgren Would you consider asking a question about the specific improvements you mentioned in the answer and focusing on that instead of these numbers? I think we can do more with your answer than we can with a closed ratio.

Mitch Lindgren

@MarkTrapp I can ask a question to that effect as well, but I am not comfortable closing or deleting my original post, if that's what you're asking me to do. That said, I will not take it personally if you or other users do vote to close the original question

user2334

@MitchLindgren I'd appreciate it if you did ask it as a separate question: I'm afraid it's going to get lost in a question that will likely devolve into challenging the premise of the question or commiseration about the state of Programmers today.

Mitch Lindgren

Okay, will do

user2334

02:42

I know there are a few people writing responses to your question, so I'm not planning on closing it right now

Mitch Lindgren

0

Q: FAQ should include examples of good questions

At the request of Mark Trapp, I'm turning one of my answers to another topic into a feature request. Currently the FAQ does not provide very much specific information on what exactly defines a good question. It does a decent job of explaining what not to ask, but it isn't specific enough about wh...

feature-request faq-proposed

I have to head out for a little while, but thank you very much for your feedback

I do hope that something worthwhile comes of my original question :)

Keep up the good work

user20683

indeed

user2334

@MitchLindgren Hey, thank you. Appreciate your willingness to chat.

Programmers

04:01

1

Q: What are "algorithm concepts"?

Our FAQ says that "algorithm and data structure concepts" questions are on-topic on Programmers. However, we receive "migrate to Stack Overflow" flags on a lot of algorithm-related question. This tells me there's a misunderstanding somewhere. Do we want algorithm questions? What kind of question...

discussion featured on-topic-definition questions

user20683

04:45

@AnnaLear would it be useful to you if I combed through high rep users best answers and attempted to analyze and point out why they are good?

OM The Eternity

05:49

0

Q: Is SCRUM Methodology a good technique to go with in crucial deadline project?

I am just join a firm and they are working in a (their called) SCRUM methodology, They have very sharp deadline and the project development doesnt seems to have any direction or neither it is looking like (This is what we want.) I am developing a module which doesnt have Database, neither I have ...

software-development software-engineering scrum sdlc

Anna Lear

12:16

@WorldEngineer What would you be trying to achieve with that? I don't think there is much point in doing it, to be honest, but it might depend on your end goal.

Karem

Hello

Programmers

13:40

0

Q: Fierce and irrational subjective questions hunting?

Before starting, take into account that my English is going to be awful XD. I think you are appliying a very restrictive policy when considering if a question is too subjective or not. You must also notice that some stackoverflow moderators redirect some users here when the question is not concr...

discussion subjective

Anna Lear

@Karem Hello.

Patrick

Question: is there anywhere on StackExchange for questions about overall application design?

for example: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/102636/…

and: ux.stackexchange.com/questions/10129/…

I'm not a software developer, but I'd like to know how to best design an Access application to make the workflow helpful for Excel users.

Any ideas?

(ux is quiet - 28 views in 10 hours)

Anna Lear

@Patrick UX would be it, I think. Are you talking about the visual kind of design? Like, the "where do I place the textbox" kind of stuff?

@Patrick I suggest coming up with a mock-up of your interface and asking for feedback or improvements. The more context you can provide, the better I think it's going to go.

Patrick

Not so much that. More, how do I create a gridview in Access that will make my Excel users comfortable

Okay!

That's a good idea

Are you familiar with Access?

Anna Lear

@Patrick Not terribly. I've used it a long time ago and don't really recall much.

Patrick

13:55

I'm wondering if it's possible to create custom form components for it using VBA, or if I'd have to use something outside of Access to do it.

Anna Lear

Ahh, I see. Hrm. I think that would be okay on Stack Overflow, since now it's an implementation question.

Just try to make it very clear what you're asking. "How do I design a gridview that my users will like" is a lot different from "I want to implement an Excel-like gridview. Is it possible in Access or do I need some other approach?". :)

Patrick

Okay, thanks!

C. Ross

14:39

My accursed four year old laptop is crashing roughly every thirty minutes, regardless of what I'm doing. It takes 15+ minutes to reboot and get logged in. This last crash corrupted my demo project in RAD. This is not a good day ... </rant>

HedgeMage

14:57

pats @CRoss

Stack Exchange

15:08

Stack Overflow Blog: The SE Podcast Setup

Posted by Alex Miller on August 17th, 2011

We’ve gotten quite a few questions from people about how we go about recording and producing the Stack Exchange podcast from people interested in everything from the hardware to the software and even the process. Given the recent revamp of the entire setup (which has been happening during our recent break from live shows), I figured this was the perfect time to do it.

Our setup is massively more complex than what is normally needed for a podcast (since its normally 2 people sitting in a room talking into mics). We generally have 2-3 people live in studio (Joel, Alex and maybe 1 guest), …

Programmers

22:44

0

Q: Why a Reputation Cap?

What is the purpose of the daily reputation limit? The only one reason I could think of would be someone quickly getting an incredulously high reputation and accessing moderation tools to damage the site/content in some way.

discussion reputation

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