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vzn
12:00 AM
actually suggested it to shog9 on a meta thread recently, he kinda brushed it off =(
you guys might understand this... its similar to looking at overall defect resolution statistics in a large defect tracking db....
anyway thx for listening
& the ideas.
some of it may be possible right now with Stack Exchange Data Explorer
 
@vzn TCS and MO are weird examples
 
vzn
TCS/MO are some of the most elite uses of se.
both attract many phds/phd students.
its true they are outliers in various ways in the se network.
 
@vzn That's the point. CS and Math exist to service people with less research oriented questions.
 
vzn
re "hard questions", TCS/MO actually occasionally push scientific boundaries.
the hardest questions are "open questions" in science & tcs/MO brush on them regularly.
 
@vzn the problem with "open" questions is that they aren't really what Stack Exchange as a whole is about. The idea with the network as a whole is to provide concise, correct, easily googleable answers to questions.
Discussion is well and good but it's just not what the network operates as.
hence our chat or reddit or whatever else exists out there.
 
vzn
12:08 AM
right. and therefore tcs.se/MO dont fit & can be awkward at times as mentioned.
 
@vzn See the whole Theoretical Physics debacle.
 
vzn
se is quite advanced in many ways and yes it can be successfully used to shed some insight on & even attack open questions.
yeah have heard some about theoretical physics.
it got closed by se mgt due to inactivity?
 
@vzn merged with Physics
 
vzn
that is another issue with se, they really dislike small niche audiences & may even close down sites for that reason.
 
there was a severe culture clash
 
vzn
12:09 AM
saw shog9 complain about tcs.se being too small once.
 
psr
If your topic is hard enough it's a whole different situation. TheoreticalStringTheory.SE can allow questions like "What is the weirdest kind of alcohol you've ever drunk while investigating string theory" and if the few hundred people on earth who can actually follow the real questions use the site that's still where they will look for answers.
 
vzn
it has to do with achieving critical mass of eyeballs.
think se should allow smaller sites & experiment there.
if a site brings regular activity, it doesnt matter too much if its niche, seems...
 
@vzn Joel Spolsky once enumerated the ideal size of a site being something like the size of academic department in terms of scope
 
vzn
that is fine & like that (might have seen that blog post once), but they dont follow that as far as users
they want large crowds.
area51 proposal system ensures that.
many area51 proposals die.
 
@vzn Area 51...let's not get started on that.
 
vzn
12:11 AM
some with significant number of users attached.
would like to see statistics on that too =)
 
on how many die?
 
vzn
sure.
 
All of the dead proposals are stored as data dumps on that site
 
vzn
theoretical physics is indeed a very interesting case study.
 
you can go looking for them
 
vzn
12:12 AM
it would be fun to datamine.
when am independently wealthy with lots of time to kill :p
 
@vzn or when you write a good grant to a wealthy benefactor
 
vzn
hah yeah.
 
AI for instance will be shut down Monday
 
vzn
either is about as likely
 
due to lack of questions
 
vzn
12:14 AM
AI proposal?
 
vzn
ouch man.
 
there's already Stats which covers most of the topics in applied terms
 
vzn
didnt a machine learning proposal die recently
 
psr
@vzn I think World Engineer is hinting. He must be wealthy if he engineered the world.
 
12:14 AM
same reason
@psr ROFL
 
vzn
it really is true that some existing groups just dont like certain topics that youd think would be totally dead on in their charter
 
I really should have picked a different user name
@vzn some sites make it
 
vzn
re world engr, depends what the pay is :p
 
An example of a very broad site that's slow traffic wise is History
 
vzn
area51 probably should also have a "merge" function. not sure how that works currently.
 
12:15 AM
because there's so much history already on Wikipedia
 
user55340
 
vzn
if a group is about to die, the whole group has nothing to lose (and a lot to gain) by merging.
just found cogsci. holy cow almost no questions.
292 questions.
yeeks.
 
user55340
 
vzn
seems to have been "active" since summer 2011 (giving that term the benefit of the doubt). ouch.
@MichaelT what does this have to do with programming?
re wikipedia was just addressing a meta question on that.
 
@vzn 1643 questions total
 
vzn
12:19 AM
se should maybe have some official policy talking about how it interrelates with wikipedia, surprised that doesnt seem to have been written anywhere
 
user55340
@vzn Very little, but we discuss cats sitting on laptops at times... or beer... or monads (whoever they are) at times.
 
psr
@vzn MichaelT did 3-5 for cat programming.
 
@MichaelT Hahah that one kitten that comes running is my favourite
 
vzn
cat programming?
 
@vzn LOLCODE
:P
 
vzn
12:20 AM
training?
 
psr
@vzn Worse than cat juggling.
 
user55340
or programming cat
 
vzn
oh you mean like CAT HERDING
 
user55340
Here's a cat written in Rail (not rails)
 
user55340
$ 'main' (--):
 \
 | /---------\
 | |         |
 | \    /-io-/
 \---e-<
        \-#
 
vzn
12:21 AM
 
vzn
thx hadnt heard of that. not quite following :p
reminds me of code golf. hell thats an entire new group isnt it?
not sure how got that 292 figure. clicked on the wrong link somewhere.
but anyway its low.
 
user55340
@vzn and programming challenges.
 
user55340
 
vzn
yeah exactly
its good you guys are so on top of the important stuff wink
 
user55340
12:25 AM
1652 questions currently... they had to get a setting changed to not auto-cw things at 30 answers because of how the site runs.
 
user55340
We look at it to see "wow, you can do that?" at times.
 
vzn
yeah. cw is a weird mechanism. throws ppl all over the place
saw a user get hung up on tcs.se also.
we ref'd someone over to codegolf recently, dont recall exactly the details
 
psr
@MichaelT The pressure he must be under to write Rail on Rails.
 
vzn
lol
they can call it Rails^2
 
user55340
Rail to C compiler... in Haskell github.com/mtolly/rail
 
vzn
12:29 AM
also reminds me of obfuscated c contest.
probably code golf tended to originate out of that.
 
user55340
I think it started with perl back in the old days.
 
user55340
Though APL may have been a contender too
 
vzn
c predates perl but yeah perl was like that too
unless maybe it started with perl & then migrated to c? not sure
 
vzn
12:30 AM
The International Obfuscated C Code Contest (abbreviated IOCCC) is a computer programming contest for the most creatively obfuscated C code. Held annually between 1984 and 1996, and thereafter in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011, 2012, and 2013 it is described as "celebrating [C's] syntactical opaqueness". The winning code for the 22nd contest, held in 2013, was released in January 2014. Prior to 2004, entries were submitted by email. In 2004, for the 17th IOCCC, the competition switched to using a web-based submission process. Entries are evaluated anonymously by a panel of jud...
 
user55340
IOCCC is old.
 
vzn
started 1984 wow didnt realize
 
user55340
I remember reading them back in college.
 
vzn
dont recall 1st time saw it but yeah maybe same here =|
 
user55340
12:31 AM
> The term “Perl Golf” was coined by Greg Bacon2 in 1999/06/21.
 
user55340
However, there are older golfs.
 
user55340
> History of golf is stretching deep into the past. Rick Klement has played golf in Fortran in the 60’s. Donald Knuth has played golf in machine codes1 in the 50’s.
 
user55340
I'd be tempted to say that perl golf popularized it in recent history.
 
user55340
Though it could have been independently discovered again and again.
 
vzn
fortran golf? really? huh!
yeah perl did create a resurgence.
alas that may be one of the better uses of perl :p
 
user55340
12:33 AM
Larry Wall was also an active IOCCC back in the '80s.
 
vzn
holy @#%& that explains a lot wow hadnt heard that.
 
vzn
my favorite LW trivia is that he was a linguistics major
←old perl dev during dotcom days thought at time it would live forever =(
"please god just one more bubble" :p
silicon valley bumper sticker
 
user55340
I'm a perler, though my skills are a bit rusty from years of Java.
 
vzn
sorry to say threw away perl over 1decade ago for ruby. now theres a language =)
 
user55340
12:35 AM
Heh... no. I've touched ruby and no.
 
user55340
Have you seen the video about first class environments and the implications in Ruby?
 
psr
@MichaelT In the 1950s wasn't all code pretty much code golf?
 
vzn
larry wall "there should be many ways to do the same thing" @#%&
maybe in linguistics lol
 
user55340
 
vzn
MATZ RULEZ :p
 
user55340
12:37 AM
You really need to watch that video and consider the implications of whats said.
 
user55340
Or.. here's some ruby for 'ya.
 
user55340
def mal(&block)
    block.call
    block.binding.eval('a = 43')
end

a = 42
puts a
mal do
  puts 1
end
puts a
 
vzn
dont use the class structure much in it. just use it for hacking :p
 
user55340
Or this one which is even worse...
 
user55340
def mal(&block)
    puts ">:)"
    block.call
    t = block.binding.eval('(self.methods - Object.methods).sample')
    block.binding.eval <<-END
        def #{t.to_s}
          raise 'MWHWAHAW!'
        end
    END
end

class Foo
    def bar
        puts "bar"
    end

    def qux
        mal do
            puts "qux"
        end
    end
end

f = Foo.new
f.bar
f.qux

f.bar
f.qux
 
vzn
12:38 AM
never used it for prod stuff. only java for that.
whered you get those? maybe put em on a blog & explain wtf....
 
user55340
The thought of using Ruby for production work (my former job was working on point of sales) absolutely terrifies me.
 
user55340
105
A: Why does the US government disallow dynamic languages for secure projects?

MichaelTThere are a number of 'neat' things that can be done in dynamic languages that can be tucked away in parts of the code that aren't immediately obvious to another programmer or auditor as to the functionality of a given piece of code. Consider this sequence in irb (interactive ruby shell): irb(m...

 
vzn
ruby is very good for prototyping, its a beautiful thing
 
@vzn if you'd watch the above video, it'll all get explained
 
vzn
maybe am a huge fan because like prototyping so much =D
never used it on a job ... iirc
ok may take a look
 
user55340
12:40 AM
Here's what it boils down to - if you use a closure in ruby, that code that you pass the closure to can do anything to the environment the closure was from. Modify the methods, change the bindings on any variable...
 
vzn
man could kill all day on this chat room, shoulda looked for it a long time ago, so many chat rooms around my neighborhood are pretty dead...
its like a party in here
closures are being added to java soon right?
closures are very tricky no matter how you slice it
 
user55340
Java 8.
 
user55340
The thing is its more than the closure, its the environment and what is passed with the closure.
 
user55340
Objective C does it right.
 
@vzn This exceptionally busy for a Friday.
 
user55340
12:41 AM
Ruby does it very wrong.
 
vzn
scope and closures is very tricky... heck there are phds still sorting it out...
 
@vzn Java already has closures, lambdas will be coming
 
vzn
some of the langugae type systems are now known to have undecidable problems associated with them....
that was a bit of a surprise when it popped up on tcs.se....
 
user55340
If you want to get into type systems... @amon an jozef (I think I spelled that right, though he hasn't been in here for awhile) are the two to talk to.
 
vzn
ruby is a gem =)
 
user55340
12:43 AM
open classes + first class environments = nightmares for writing anything moderately secure.
 
vzn
a. seems to understand that :)
 
@MichaelT Jon Purdy if you can find him
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer But he's rarely in the room.
 
yep but he's only Programmers regular I know of who writes Haskell for a living.
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer Today has been a very odd Friday for people showing up in chat.
 
vzn
12:45 AM
Haskell, an academic wet dream
monads, gonads, whatever
← not ashamed to admit still havent figured out what a monad is
 
user55340
Get @JimmyHoffa to describe it to you... (note the room tags)
 
vzn
lol
maybe add that as a tag
 
@vzn too long
 
vzn
but my-code-is-compiling is not? :p
its good you guys have some quality control around here wink
 
user55340
12:47 AM
I'd go with...
 
user55340
25
A: How to create better OO code in a relational database driven application where the database is poorly designed

Jimmy HoffaObject orientation is valuable specifically because these types of scenarios arise, and it gives you tools to reasonably design abstractions that allow you to encapsulate complexity. The real question here is, where do you encapsulate that complexity? So let me step back a moment and speak to w...

 
user55340
And then follow him down the rabbit hole part.
 
@vzn I am by and large the quality control
at least in the chat
 
vzn
ah well that explains everything right :p
yeeks
inmates running the asylum and all that
 
@vzn too crazy for an inmate, try again.
 
vzn
12:48 AM
you guys are making me dizzy
lol
 
@vzn Good, you're learning something then.
 
vzn
rabbit hole? you have to take the red pill for that =D
 
psr
@MichaelT It's breathtaking. Like high level "have at it" assembly. Being a maintenance programmer on a bad Ruby project would be similar - the metaprogramming is kind of like a Goto in that anything anywhere can touch anything anywhere. "Is this refactoring safe" is always answered "nope".
 
vzn
+1 jimmyhoffa
 
user55340
@psr I admit to having to open class the Nil object in one ruby project to fix a bug.
 
vzn
12:50 AM
refactoring? who has schedule/budget for that anyway hah
just saw a presentation by booch a few mos ago partly on that
 
user55340
I defined a method for is_false to return true in the Nil object... it felt dirty.
 
vzn
it was... idealistic to say the least...
 
Hi, are there any moderators available ? I need some serious help it's urgent.
 
user55340
@user Which site? (there are a few here, at least one active now and one who could be pinged)
 
vzn
guess know where to hang out now when it gets too dull elsewhere...
coulda been halfway commuting home by now sheesh
really am the crazy one chatting here on a fri eve
 
12:52 AM
stackoverflow
 
user55340
I don't see any SO mods, though one of the local mods could try pinging them...
 
user55340
(the two SO mods who are active on P.SE don't seem to be about in here at the moment... one of them would be late late night... the other, well, its friday night and I haven't seen him today here).
 
Any other mods that could be on somewhere else?
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer are you pingable to the SO mods by chance?
 
user55340
@user you might also be able to find a community manager (SE employe who has all site mod powers) in the Meta Tavern.
 
user55340
12:56 AM
(if world can't ping fast enough)
 
aight thank you so much
I just need a question deleted or edited because the person who answered my question posted my whole script in his answer and this makes my script detectable in plagiarism sites. My prof said to upload our script to SafeAssign which is a plagiarism checker and I don't want it to show a false positive because of my script being here. I want my script on his answer either be edited and posted on pastebin or removed completely.
 
@MichaelT I can ping them as a whole yes but as far as doing that we try not to
@user flag it
 
I already did. But it didn't change yet. I need it gone ASAP
 
user55340
Heh, question #1 in the mod election survey.
 
user55340
12:57 AM
Flag it.
 
-1
Q: (PowerShell) How to calculate total number of purchases in a document?

userI am working on a script that will ask the user to enter the information of a book and then stores that information in a text document. The user has to put in the name, description, ID of the book, and its price, which is held in the variable $PurchasePriceRounded. At the end of the script, the u...

here is the question, can one of you help me out?
 
user55340
295
A: 2014 SO Moderator Election Q&A - Question Collection

Brad LarsonAn asker repeatedly flags their own question and says that they need to delete it or they'll be fired, because they mistakenly posted proprietary code. There are several good answers on that question. What do you do?

 
user55340
@user No more so than you can - all we here can do is flag it... and you can flag it too.
 
user55340
@user Try deleting it again.
 
Can you approve my edit at least? Because I tried to change his answer so that the script doesn't show
 
user55340
12:59 AM
There is something that I can do - and thats down vote an answer. If there are any positive rep answers, you can't delete.
 
user55340
But now... its a 0 rep answer.
 
Oh sure
 
Notification achieved
 
Can you PLEASE do that? It would save me a lot of trouble
 
I can't, not high rep enough
 
user55340
1:00 AM
I can't delete your question... but you may be able to now.
 
I barely use SO, mostly due to code licensing issues
 
"Sorry, this question has answers and cannot be deleted; flag it for moderator attention instead"
 
user55340
 
user55340
Well then flag it.
 
Already did
Can you guys edit his answer out?
 
vzn
1:01 AM
l8r dudez thx for entertainment will return sometime
 
user55340
Nope. Can't edit his answer out.
 
user55340
We have very little power on SO... you've got about the same set of privs as we do.
 
Oh I see
Any other chat rooms I can go to where people have power on SO?
 
user55340
MichaelT, Eau Claire, WI
820 1 10 24
 
user55340
See, only 820 rep. I can't even see the up/down vote on it currently.
 
1:03 AM
Any way I can contact the person directly?
 
@user I've pinged people, so they will deal with it as they see fit
@user Nope.
 
Thanks Ashley.
 
user55340
World has even fewer privs there than I do.
 
Keep in mind they might choose to do nothing.
(I am not an SO mod, or even barely a user, so I have no idea what they've got for rules about this stuff.)
 
user55340
1:04 AM
And Ashely...
 
user55340
Ashley Nunn, Waterloo, Canada
102 2
 
user55340
So yea... we're not SO people.
 
Hahaha one more than the assoc bonus!
 
user55340
You had a +2, -1.
 
(also I can't believe you spelled my name wrong)
@MichaelT Yeah, on my single terrible question
 
user55340
1:05 AM
@AshleyNunn I spell many things wrong.
 
can you guys refer me to a room with SO people?
 
@user Check that site's chats?
 
user55340
 
But I mean don't expect them to jump to help, you've really done all you can
 
The site's chat glitches on me and says I need 20 reputation to chat but I have 21
 
user55340
1:06 AM
Though I'd still say tavern, chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/89/tavern-on-the-meta but thats also its own fun.
 
user55340
@user I blame caching.
 
Right, I should clear my cache first
Alright guys, I'm gonna go to the other rooms. Thanks for the help
 
user55340
Poking the tavern at the moment, I see animus on active, and tim, and nick.
 
user55340
Of those, animuson is a mod and the other two are SE employees.
 
user55340
(note: people with blue in chat are mods)
 
1:07 AM
Oh okay
 
vzn
MichaelT agree with your pts about ruby but maybe "coding conventions" can solve some of the issues you cite.
not that anyone follows those :p
 
user55340
@vzn conventions work... but aren't enforced by the language. You have to be disciplined not to work around them.
 
user55340
(FWIW, just saw the user join the tavern)
 
user55340
Sounds like the cat searched for 'n'. Try doing :let @/ = "" to clear the search. — Steven Burnap 24 secs ago
 
user55340
@AshleyNunn note where that comment came from.
 
1:14 AM
@MichaelT Which?
 
user55340
Sounds like the cat searched for 'n'. Try doing :let @/ = "" to clear the search. — Steven Burnap 1 min ago
 
user55340
Back to cats and programming!
 
user55340
And the close reason was:
 
user55340
This question would be better on Unix & Linux. Or maybe Pets. :-) — Blrfl 2 hours ago
 
@MichaelT Still nope :P
 
1:37 AM
Is this a better fit for Programmers.SE?
0
Q: Would this be a correct way to use the Repository pattern in ASP .NET MVC application implementing Entity Framework?

DenizThis ASP .NET MVC application implements Entity Framework. I've declared the repositories in the DbContext like this: public class CompanyDbContext : DbContext { // constructor goes here public DbSet<Customer> Customers { get; set; } public DbSet<Order> Orders { get; se...

 
user55340
1:54 AM
@Brant Dunno... might need to get an ASP.net'er to comment on that - I can't read if there's enough info in it or not.
 
user55340
Random bit: Reason to know K&R C - vim is still written in that so old systems can compile it. Look at github.com/b4winckler/macvim/blob/master/src/eval.c and be scared.
 
user55340
/*
 * Return the name of the executed function.
 */
    char_u *
func_name(cookie)
    void *cookie;
{
    return ((funccall_T *)cookie)->func->uf_name;
}
 
user55340
@Brant For what its worth... it was reposted.
 
user55340
0
Q: Would this be a correct way to use the Repository pattern in ASP .NET MVC application implementing Entity Framework?

DenizThis ASP .NET MVC application implements Entity Framework. I've declared the repositories in the DbContext like this: public class CompanyDbContext : DbContext { // constructor goes here public DbSet<Customer> Customers { get; set; } public DbSet<Order> Orders { get; se...

 
user55340
3:41 AM
@Christoph you might be able to work something off of the most dangerous tags query data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/134977/… - that one works for tags akin to data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/78395/…
 
4:32 AM
hrm, I may have picked the wrong time of day to ask my question. I think I may have missed both the US and UK work crowds.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:48 AM
-6
Q: this question going to be posted 100000000000 time blocking people from asking are not good practice

isslam akkilahi think i don't need to write much information i think but blocking people form asking are not good practice there is down voting and i got -2 then -4 then -3 then -11 and i will not change the question more then 11 time and not get any thing and about deleting post it should be alert to warning ...

I am scared :)
 
 
4 hours later…
10:19 AM
good food for thought there in comments...
This has almost nothing to do with you deleting questions. You probably shouldn't have deleted this one - the system penalizes you heavily for quickly deleting a question after someone took the time to answer - but for the most part your block is due to down-votes triggered by hard-to-read questions, lousy titles, etc. — Shog9 3 hours ago
"system penalizes you heavily for quickly deleting a question after someone took the time to answer"
 
Dew
lets scribble this whiteboard!
 
that is, fastest gun answerers quickly dropping their lousy stuff into troublesome questions, essentially increase risk of the asker to hit question ban instead of helping them
 
 
3 hours later…
1:09 PM
0
A: Question closed, how to fix it?

AthariThere's no way to fix the question. Programmers site is FUBAR. It's about closing useful questions, not about answering them. If half questions get closed, the site is doomed. Just look at the front page. No one understands what this site is about. Those few who managed to farm enough reputation...

 
 
2 hours later…
2:41 PM
@MichaelT same in SE chat too.
 
 
4 hours later…
7:02 PM
@MichaelT psh, haters gonna hate.
@Undo... you're... soo... BLUE!
 
user55340
7:44 PM
@Ampt He's gotten a modship over at Software Recommendations (poor soul).
 
8:49 PM
posted on February 22, 2014 by Stack Exchange

Some programmers think it's clutter, but others want the information.

 
god no
NOOOOOooooo
2
"Some programmers are sane, but others don't like the convenience of modern tools and tried and tested development practices. Who is right?"
 
@StackExchange ars' coverage on SE is a sure way to find questions that should have been closed ;-)
 
@amon Entirely SamTheBrand's fault
 
9:51 PM
@WorldEngineer his fault was to blindly follow the top answer score, without even making a basic check for whether question popularity is genuine. Question is somewhat slippery, but not really bright, quick look at answer scores reveals typical fake enthusiasm coming from hot list: 97 0 -1 0 1 0 11 7 2 2 5 7 39 9 14 2...
> When votes of 20... 30... 100 users clearly indicate that only one or two answers are popular, it does not make sense to pretend that other answers are popular too.
 

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