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user55340
2:23 AM
This one needs to get archived in here before it becomes 10k MSO only...
 
user55340
Stack Exchange is best to listen to a demand from someone of my intelligence. — Andy Harglesis yesterday
 
gnat
gnat
6:27 AM
@MichaelT there is a "better" one, already archived here at Whiteboard :)
@lunboks this won't win, there was a better one this week. As a 10Ker, you can see whole carnival here. "I have 2 choices unless you fix this. 1. Stop answering bounty questions. 2. Leave StackOverflow/StackExchange entirely. I don't wait around. I will know by the end of the week which choice I will make." — gnat yesterday
 
 
5 hours later…
gnat
gnat
11:21 AM
half of the answers (8 of 16) in this question are at -2. There are 2 delete votes on it. Looks like we've got a problem here. Pondering about what course of action to take on it... programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/1662/…
15
Q: What's the regular working hour in programmers world?

logoinI know people work from 8 to 10 and also people work from 9 to 5. I wonder what is the regular working hour for most programmers. Would you take it into consideration when you look for a job?

work-environment time
 
 
2 hours later…
user41796
1:06 PM
@gnat Now it's got 3 delete votes. :-) And I'm heartbroken that the MSO bounty question has been deleted. So not fair. I was going to ref it when I howled about not receiving my bounty at my open bounty question on P.SE.
 
user41796
And I just "stole" 15 rep from Robert Harvey. 10k only link
 
user41796
 
user41796
"stole" isn't quite right. But "redirected to /dev/null" doesn't have quite the same effect.
 
user20683
1:21 PM
@GlenH7 I've stolen rep from myself.
 
user20683
Any good mod would do the same.
 
user55340
2:09 PM
@gnat I saw that one too. I wonder if we have more difficulty with 13 year olds or CIOs. In this case, I'd go for the 13 year old though.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 I doubt he is too surprised given he had cast the first closevote.
 
user41796
@MichaelT there's a chance we can steer 13 year olds in the right direction. CIOs? Not so much.
 
user41796
And I stole 70 from Anna today too
 
gnat
gnat
deletionists! :)
97
Q: Community-led deletionism: a protocol for sanity

Shog9A couple of events in the past few days have caused me to reflect - yet again - on the direction we're headed with regard to deletion on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange. First, a moderator on one of our larger Stack Exchange sites resigned. This parting was not acrimonious - he just decided he...

discussion deleted-questions
 
user55340
@GlenH7 With a 13yo in the 'wrong' direction, I doubt there is much that can be done until the brain develops a bit more. Give it a few years to hit college and the realization on how much they don't know becomes clear.
 
user55340
2:20 PM
Part of the realization I turn 40 this year... I went to get a new prescription for glasses yesterday... bifocals.
 
user41796
At least there's a hope in his case....
 
user41796
@MichaelT I suspect those are a long time off in my case, but that's more due to my myopia than anything.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 I really wish he had chosen to go for something simpler than x86. Like 6502.
 
user55340
A copy of the Apple ][ Redbook, a soldering iron and say "go for it." Very doable.
 
user55340
(or even a wirewrap - easier to recover from mistakes)
 
user41796
2:23 PM
@MichaelT x86 is not where I would pick to understand ML or AL. Just too much going on to wrap your head around for a starter project.
 
user55340
Especially modern x86. Maybe if you hunted up a 286...
 
user55340
The other choice system would be MIPS (use SPIM) though the "want to talk to the hardware) would frustrate with a simulator.
 
user41796
I might argue for 8088 or 8086 if it really had to be the x86 family. Still... Oh, and good luck finding those although my dad has an 8088 down in the basement that still works just fine, afaik.
 
user41796
as hip as arduino is right now, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go down that route. I think those are ARM procs underneath, but very easy to get to the core with those.
 
user41796
start with arduino so you understand embedded design. Then bridge directly to AL or ML from there
 
user55340
2:27 PM
I am sure that "someone with his intelligence" has already considered and discounted those.
 
user41796
Yes, I had forgotten about his clear intellectual superiority. Shocking how I could have so easily forgotten such a noteworthy characteristic. I must be getting old and senile.
 
user55340
FWIW, this (10k link) was also from a CIO.
 
user41796
2:43 PM
@AnnaLear how did you know you were mentioned in chat this AM? :-) chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/10443121#10443121
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer Why not?
@GlenH7 She works for SE, they hear everything
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Hello
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Morning
 
jozefg
jozefg
Hows this monday shaping up?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
So did Rapier end up wandering off to read the SICP? hope so, I'm still on the fence as to whether understanding the computer itself (just understanding a turing machine) is a good precursor to working with any of the math-level abstractions (though I absolutely wouldn't want to see the work needed to make the connection between the two, that takes years) or if that get's in the way more than it helps...
Is fine, about to grab a coffee and start tweaking configs for an upcoming production deployment... Got hardly any sleep last night though, dragging, what're ya gonna do.
 
jozefg
jozefg
2:57 PM
:/ ick that sucks. And yeah he seemed to in the end
After a lot of persuasion..
I think I may learn clojure this fall
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg I was disappointed in the claims of it's distaste for assignment to find out that memory assigned/updated variables are supported at the language level in quite a variety of ways, typically of which the dirtiest and the documentation undersold the STM pretty strongly
also turned out for all the power of macros, the main thing I ended up wanting to do with macros turned out to be an unsupported macro type for clojure; you have to go to a more full featured LISP to get a variety of different types of macros clojure lacked
Fun though, LightBoard is an awesome IDE
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa What did you want to do with macros? I've done CL and Scheme for a while now and been very happy with their macro capabilities
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Board? or Table?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg I don't precisely remember now...
@MichaelT whatever it was called, light table
 
user55340
 
jozefg
jozefg
3:10 PM
I'd probably jsut use emacs + slime for clojure
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Just making sure there wasn't another one floating around that I needed to check out.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
2
Q: Clojure macro that doesn't need space next to it

Jimmy HoffaTrying to create a macro form of Haskell's lambda syntax, I'm pretty close except one last tweak, the / (which should be a \, but can't grumble..) needs a space next to it, is there any way to make it so my macro doesn't need space between it and it's first argument? for instance: (reduce (/x y ->

macros clojure lisp
@jozefg get LightTable, it's a REPL-like IDE built in clojure for clojure, it's just handy
it's really cool
 
jozefg
jozefg
tbh I prefer #(fun %1) to haskell's lambdas..
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Watch one of the quick videos
 
jozefg
jozefg
Ok
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
3:12 PM
@jozefg Yeah I have nothing against it, but there was a couple other things I wanted to do that the lack of being able to change things with macros caused annoyance; that was just a quick example
Point being it's not as full features at your CL or Racket probably
 
jozefg
jozefg
Yeah.. though it sounds like it's more nicely polymorphic..
@JimmyHoffa Have you used the Cont monad much?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
No, I've read and read and still never been able to get my head quite around it
I know it's supposed to be such an important one
 
jozefg
jozefg
I just had this wonderful moment last night when I rewrote some stuff using it and suddenly everything was lovely, like 500 loc to 100 loc lovely
It's not too bad, just implement it yourslef and it tends to click
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Yeah that's what I've been doing to get the other monads to make sense
 
jozefg
jozefg
Indeed, plus you get callCC which is also pretty magical
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
3:17 PM
The control flow monads and IO monads come a ton easier (either, maybe, parsec/attoparsec, IO, STM, ST) than the stateful ones, those ones still confuse me a bit, I just need to start using them though
 
user55340
-2
Q: Strange output with str[::step] in Python3

user97384http://s22.postimg.org/4sco16fcx/Pyth.jpg Strange!! Where is the Fault??

python python-3.x
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I feel like the Cont monad is something akin to overusing kleisli
 
user55340
le sigh
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
which I love
 
jozefg
jozefg
I use arrows less than I should.. Mostly because I rarely need more structured functions
I find that people reach for monads + arrows too much. Usually applicative functors, endo-functors and good old monoids are more than enough
i like monoids :)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
3:23 PM
I haven't even broached arrows yet, but yeah applicative functors and monoids will get you 90% of the way, monads just get you the brim of your program
 
jozefg
jozefg
Agreed, plus comonads deserve more love
They're useful little things
 
user55340
> those operations people... so violent... always talking about punching things down.
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
3:40 PM
@GlenH7 err, what? I didn't until you linked me to it, and I've no idea what you think you stole from me. :)
 
user55340
I would contend that the rep has been on 'loan' since the before times, and P.SE just collected on a 'bad' loan? If one wants to use that awful analogy.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg have you signed up for the FP Haskell Center beta at FPComplete?
@jozefg If not, you should; I got in the other week, it's a pretty nice online haskell IDE with project/build/deploy functionality built in that runs everything on their servers. fpcomplete.com/blog/2013/07/ide-stackage not sure if beta registration is still available though..
 
user41796
@AnnaLear - from a question that got deleted this AM, you lost 7 up votes. Sorry for the slightly obscure reference earlier in the chat. programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/74545/…
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
@GlenH7 Ah. The question was old, so it didn't actually cost me anything.
 
user41796
3:56 PM
And now I've learned something new for the day. And apparently I didn't steal anything away from Robert either then. His accepted answer was on a question from 2011 as well.
 
user55340
@AnnaLear out of curiosity, would you rather deal with a 13 year old? or CIO? (and of course, you may plead the 5th ;-)
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
@MichaelT Children are terrifying, so CIO.
 
user41796
@MichaelT That may need some additional context to be fair...
 
user41796
@MichaelT For a moment, I thought you were going to go with a Plato / Platonic analogy of recollection regarding the reputation being given and taken back.
 
user55340
@AnnaLear The context (as @GlenH7 ) is the various... lets call them tantrums... that have been seen by each on MSO.
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
4:01 PM
Still CIO. Much more entertaining.
 
user41796
the tantrums tend to be more epic, no doubt
 
user55340
4:13 PM
I really like it when I see a user constructively take criticism of the question, self delete it with a promise to rewrite it. I hope to see a good question come out of that one (the 5 or 6 pictures requirements question)
 
user55340
4:53 PM
hmm.. e vs o very similar.
 
gnat
gnat
sort of prediction, this question is going to be damaged by collider...
3
Q: Why is Inversion of Control named that way?

Korey HintonThe words invert or control are not used at all to define Inversion of Control in the definitions that I've seen. Definitions Wikipedia inversion of control (IoC) is a programming technique, expressed here in terms of object-oriented programming, in which object coupling is bound at run...

definition inversion-of-control ioc-containers ioc
as usual

hotness formula damage case study - "+25, +14, -1, -1, -1"

May 28 at 15:47, 5 hours 40 minutes total – 54 messages, 5 users, 4 stars

Bookmarked May 29 at 7:26 by gnat

when you know how collider bug works, it's like watching the train wreck in the slow motion
 
user55340
@gnat I'm amused at the answers and who is attracted there so far. Three answers and the lowest rep is 30.3k.
 
user55340
(30.3k, 33.6k and 50.4k)
 
gnat
gnat
5:14 PM
@MichaelT well you have to wait until it gets to collider to see answerers popping up with rep around 101
> You know, everyone would want to answer a question, but for community regulars, this natural desire is balanced by established norms. Regulars understand what kind answers are good and likely to bring upvotes and they avoid posting garbage that usually gets downvoted: this sort of sets the quality norm.
> But wait, the question is now on top, it attracts a lot of visitors whose desire to answer is not balanced by local community norms. At this point "intended life-cycle of a hot question" breaks...
> ...There are just too many new visitors to keep things under local community control, and there are just too many new voters and commenters to get things going as designed.
24
A: Don't let questions stick to the top of the hot questions list forever

gnatOne problem with hot questions seems to be that there is no way for "hotness algorithm" to differentiate genuine popularity from fake one, that is from popularity introduced by the algorithm itself. The issue probably wasn't even noticeable when current algorithm was introduced in 2008, since S...

 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@gnat I couldn't help it. I had to add to the coming burnination. I thought I had something worth saying nobody else was saying...
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
I'm looking for some advice on database design: I'm wanting to make an "NFL Survivor" web app. Basically the mechanics are each week, a player chooses an NFL team to win that week. If that team wins, the player stays in and the next week chooses another team; a team can't be selected more than once by the same player. If the team loses, that player is out. I'm wrestling with how I want to model this in a database.
Both for keeping track of player' picks and running a comparison to tell who won and is "still in".
For the player entries, I keep going back and forth between a single row for each entry, with a field correpsonding to each week's pick (i.e., week1 - week17), or structuring it so that each week's pick is a unique record...i.e., .playerid, .week, .teampicked
 
user55340
I'd go with the second. 0, 1, many comes into play there.
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
Somehow I need to be able to tie that back to a record of which teams actually did win, to do the test on if the player is still in
 
gnat
gnat
@JimmyHoffa I for one will take a pop corn and watch. So far Fowler wins. Other answers aren't bad, either (including yours)
 
user55340
5:29 PM
Think of the query with the 'week1, week2' format for the "hasn't picked this team on any previous weeks"
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
@MichaelT sure, yeah, that would get clumsy wouldn't it
 
user55340
kind of clumsy kind of fast.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@gnat I chose Robert's answer before I wrote my own. Fowler as usual just doesn't really explain things in a way I like. Robert's answer was easy to follow, concise, and correct
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
Ok, so then I was thinking I could have acorresponding 'winners' table, with week number and winning team....I think that would let me join or contains or something to see which players are still alive
 
user55340
  +------------+
  | somethingid|
  |------------|
  | playerid   |
  | teamid     |
  | weeknum    |
  +------------+
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
5:32 PM
exactly
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT A star just for drawing nice ascii diagrams.
 
user55340
Ahh, but I learned from other questions... and its asciiflow.com
 
Peter Tirrell
Peter Tirrell
+1 either way! I like it!
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Minus one star.
 
user55340
This is where I found it...
 
user55340
5:34 PM
5
Q: Object Oriented Design

Michael IreySuppose you have the following: +--------+ +------+ | Animal | | Food | +-+------+ +----+-+ ^ ^ | | | | +------+ +-------+ | Deer | | Grass | +------+ +---...

object-oriented object-oriented-design
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Aha, I'm reinstating your star because you just gave me the idea of using it to diagram the IoC vs. the normal order
I can't get a route to asciiflow.com ?? or it won't resolve or something..wth
Resolves, no route
weird
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa just checked; came through fine for me.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Must be something wrong with your internet.
(See what I've learned from users? Logic, that's what that is!)
 
user41796
There's lots wrong in my world, so that wouldn't surprise me
 
user20683
6:21 PM
@JimmyHoffa Most of the Haskell tutorials aren't that good for someone with 0 programming experience.
 
user20683
I'd argue that Haskell makes a great 2nd or 3rd language.
 
user20683
maybe 4th
 
user20683
depends on your school of thought
 
user20683
I'd also argue that transitioning from Haskell to "normal" languages would be a bit tricky.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer That's a good point; even LYAH which really goes through the basics of Haskell says up front, it expects you to be an imperative programmer already
 
user20683
6:23 PM
That being said, there is a version of "Think like a Computer Scientist" for Ocaml.
 
user55340
There is the "old school MIT" school of thought that one should work in a language that you have no experience in and likely quite different from anything you may have picked up earlier to separate yourself from any preconceived notions or bad habits.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer MUCH less tricky than the other way around, and the transition would cause you to bring along cruft from Haskell that makes you better in the other languages anyway
 
user55340
I remember as a first year CS student working in pascal I was "Oh, I know how to do that with global variables!" from previous pascal experience.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Never heard that, but that's another point for learning with Haskell; you'll never work in it
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa Yeah. I find myself groking Haskell much better now that I've had formal CS training.
 
user20683
6:24 PM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
 
user55340
Intro to CS at MIT was traditionally done in lisp. Something that no one coming in would have too much experience with (if any).
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
alright, that's a good larf.
 
user20683
@MichaelT SICP is the intro to CS book for MIT until recently anyway.
 
user55340
People going into CS classes typicaly have some php, or python, or C or java experience now days. And lots of bad habits from self taught things.
 
user55340
6:28 PM
The first thing that many CS classes have to do is unteach those bad habits "no, global vars are bad."
 
user20683
I know I had to unteach myself that
 
user20683
mostly because Q-Basic
 
user55340
It is much 'faster' to teach a new language that you don't have any bad habits in and is so unlike anything you knew before that you can't bring in the bad habits than it is to unteach half the class some bad habits.
 
user55340
(and you know they'll just ignore you because their way is so much faster and they've been doing it since they were a 13yo genius)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT It also helps when the language has fewer bad habits available
 
user20683
6:29 PM
@MichaelT Genius my ass
 
user55340
@PeterTirrell btw, give database normalization a read. "Every non-key attribute must provide a fact about the key, the whole key, and nothing but the key. So help me Codd"
 
user55340
[A-Z]DD -- how many of these have been allocated?
 
user55340
0
Q: How can I apply Readme Driven Development to an ongoing project?

MetalcoderI'm assigned to a project where the goal is to update an existing software. This software was developed in a totally ad hoc manner, which means that any documentation generated is outdated, confused and just plain useless. I do not want to retroactivelly produce all the missing artifacts, since t...

documentation methodology engineering changes
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT I think someone needs to come up with a new meme because this "*** Driven Development" stuff is getting way out of hand...
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa Troll Driven Development
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:36 PM
@WorldEngineer You post your idea on reddit, slashdot, and cross-post on every SE site, then take all the code that comes back and figure out how to make it compile?
 
user55340
@WorldEngineer Sorry, TDD is already taken.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT No, this is the more aptly abbreviated TrDD. Pronounce as you please.
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa A friend of mine is working on a triple PhD and trying to figure out a system that will take any legacy code and autoadapt a wrapper for it.
 
user20683
at least that's as much as I could understand of it anyway
 
psr
psr
@JimmyHoffa How about "Drivel Development"?
 
user55340
6:44 PM
@psr Drivel Driven Development - after trying to get firm requirements from the business user, you start collecting anything that spills from their mouth after which you throw it against a wall and see what sticks.
2
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Sounds like why anyone would end up using MUMPS
 
psr
psr
My next question "What are the differences between DDD (Drivel Driven Development) and Scrum?"
@JimmyHoffa Actually, using MUMPS was one of the clearest requirements.
 
user55340
@psr DDD comes from the business owner, scrum comes from the process owner.
 
psr
psr
A.K.A. pwner
 
Metalcoder
Metalcoder
@MichaelT this means that I asked at the wrong place? Or that my question is dumb?
 
psr
psr
6:57 PM
@Metalcoder - Neither I think, just that {noun} driven development has gotten to be so widely used that it has become a bit annoying. No reflection on you - you didn't name the technique.
 
user20683
It's like Hipsters and the use of "Ironic".
 
Metalcoder
Metalcoder
@psr I've got it ;)
 
user55340
7:08 PM
@Metalcoder @psr is correct in his comment. Its that I keep seeing ?DD places and wondering what the new fad for things is each time. You do have a real question that is a reasonable one. It just makes me sigh each time I need to go look up a new DD to see what model is being talked about this time.
 
user20683
@MichaelT Probably a pornographic one if it is a DD model.
 
user20683
:p
 
Metalcoder
Metalcoder
@MichaelT for sure, there is DD everywhere. People should stop using it. It have a "yet another..." flavor!
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@psr You did not.
 
user55340
@ThomasOwens He didd, but you need to glance at my typo first.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:44 PM
There's a good question in there, but you just need to add some detail and info to get to it... give some examples and explain your perspective and what you expect to hear to prove or disprove it — Jimmy Hoffa 6 secs ago
@ThomasOwens @WorldEngineer SQA for unit test type questions, or does SE line up with the brain damaged industry such that SQA = manual test/test case creation and analysis? (granted the Q is on-topic here so no need to migrate, just curious..)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
The SQA site includes "automation engineers". Honestly, though, I'd prefer to see no more SQA. Just looking at the questions, the good ones are either good SO implementation (of tests) or tool questions or good Programmers process or methodology questions.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens There's a real space for SQA, if you remove all the real engineering and turn it back to "This is how you design test cases from requirements", "This is how you document manually run test cases" "This is what black box testing is and this is what white box testing is and this is but industry box testing is" (industry box testing: Writing a test case, having a meeting, asking the dev if the software works, writing passed on the test case if the dev says yes)
Then there's manual tester's version of TDD, they hear every test should be written to fail first right? So they write up test cases, fail them all and open bugs, then when the developer closes each one of the bugs as resolved/no repro/by design, they assume the dev tested his resolutions, so testing is done. (They don't have time for the actual testing, they're busy having a meeting)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa I meant SQA the site, not SQA the job.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:00 PM
@ThomasOwens I did to, and then I started ranting
the site makes sense for manual testers, it doesn't make sense for automation testers for exactly the reasons you mention
there is still a skill to good manual testing (it just appears to have been lost at some point in the 90s)
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa I blame the introduction of Java.
 
user20683
Because why the hell not?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I blame the huge boom of MBAs in the 90s
@RobertHarvey pre-90s would you say management of software devs was more engineering-centric than business-centric vs post-90s? I'm just guessing here, I didn't work pre-90s but surely you did plenty
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa Since when was actual work experience required in order to vent about a period in time?
 
user55340
8:26 PM
Previous employment, needed director approval (never given - it was for "special occasions") for consumption of alcohol while at work. Current employment, we just got a care package from California - 8 bottles of various local Cali beers. We are debating when to drink them.
 
user41796
@MichaelT after they're chilled.
 
user55340
Right now they are sitting on the tea cart. There is some discussion about if the given beer is meant to be room temp or chilled.
 
user41796
chilled to at least 50 or 60 deg F is the only civilized approach. Others really ought to be taken down to sub 40
 
user41796
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
8:43 PM
What beer?
 
user55340
Sierra Nevada, Anchorsteam, Prohobition... those are the three I recognize from where I am.
 
user41796
Those will all do well around normal fridge temperatures. By the time you pour them into a glass they'll have warmed to proper drinking temp.
 
user55340
Personally I'm not a beer drinker... I was drawn away by cider.
 
user41796
I'm not a big fan of Sierra Nevada, but I think that's because I was negatively biased by someone else. No I think I've had Anchorsteam and it was good. No memories of Prohibition which is either good or bad.
 
user55340
A nice Wyders Pear cider... sigh
 
user20683
8:49 PM
There's a restaurant with a Belgian bar about 2 miles from me.
 
user20683
perhaps I should go sometime
 
user20683
never had Belgians
 
user20683
outside of Blue Moon and that doesn't count I don't think
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer belgians are lovely. pricey, but lovely. lots of big flavors banging about
 
user20683
@GlenH7 There is a store 2 blocks from me if I want them from the bottle
 
user20683
8:52 PM
The ones with cherries sound lovely.
 
user55340
A nice lambic also works for me.
 
user41796
@MichaelT Love, love, love lindeman's lambics
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer you might be getting the impression that @MichaelT or I could give a suggestion or two
 
user20683
@GlenH7 I might be
 
user41796
what sorts of beers do you like now? belgians can get quite varied, so it helps to know what you like and point out the ones that are amplifications of current preferences.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:00 PM
@WorldEngineer After your 3rd duvel something magical happens and they stop tasting horrible, granted if you finish 3 you aren't just "tipsy" anymore.
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I like Boulevard's Smokestack series for that reason. Start in on their 6th glass and you'll be feeling it in no time.
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa After 3 I'd not be able to taste anything
 
user20683
I tend to favor stouts historically
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer With your tolerance you probably wouldn't manage to finish the second one
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa I have a tolerance?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:02 PM
@GlenH7 Yeah, I learned to love Boulevard when I lived in KC, there was a good liquor store right at the end of the driveway for my apt
@WorldEngineer Not from what you've said
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I've heard they've started selling Blvd Wheat and Pale out your way, but I could be wrong. For a long time, Boulevard said they weren't even going to try and compete in your town. Too much competition.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Everything by Unibrou is awesome (they make my second favorite summer beer, la ephemere or something; it's a light blond with some apple flavor but not apply juice like a lambic, much lighter apple notes)
@GlenH7 Boulevard's all over out here, I grab their farmhouse 7 whenever I'm looking for a wheat
Though you probably can't get it, it's a seasonal beer by left hand brewing out here my favorite summer beer is "JuJu Ginger", it's a slightly hopped wheat beer brewed with ginger, perfectly balanced
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa & @WorldEngineer, unibroue.com/en is a great company to start with for bigger beers. La Fin du Monde is technically an Ale, but it's a big bodied ale. I believe Gulden Draak was mentioned yesterday too. Quite tasty
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Boulevard's good enough to compete out here, they bring a lot of strong belgian influences they've worked on for years that the micro's out here surprisingly have only recently started working out. IPA and ambers have been the name of the game for micro's out here for a long time, personally I hate IPAs
 
user20683
I tend to prefer sipping alcohols
 
user20683
9:07 PM
port wine and the like
 
user20683
I like herbal stuff like gin and ouzo
 
user41796
Sam Adam's brewers collection is generally really good too. They are good at pushing the boundaries of beer
 
user20683
Cream Liquors and variants, Amarula tends to be my favorite out of that group. Has a sour edge
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer If you like sour, try Leffe Blonde; Belgian Blonde's are distinctly sour. Or if that's still to beerish, there are flemish sour ales like Duchesse Du Borgogne which is really good and very sour
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa more of a hint of sour than flatly sour.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:11 PM
Then try leffe, it's a very good beer, blonde's are what got me into Belgian beer because I prefer the sour over the bitter flavors
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa I've half a mind to try homebrewing a maple something at some point, just to see.
 
user20683
I can tell you what I don't like: Abita Strawberry Lager, Mike's anything, those horrible Bacardi alcopop things, Spiced Rum, Scotch (though the jury is still out as I've only had it once)
 
user20683
I won't drink Vodka straight
 
user41796
Ommegang makes great Belgians; Goose Island does as well, although they are kinda picky about when they release a belgian. Their bourbon county stout is legendary.
 
user41796
not drinking scotch or vodka just means you haven't found the right ones. :-)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:15 PM
@GlenH7 Yeah, the cool thing about belgian beer is it's so complex and people who drink it are so picky; there's very little bad belgian beer because it wouldn't get any market. But you have to like that unfiltered flavor to like any of them
 
user41796
Agreed. Brewers know they're putting their necks on the line with a belgian.
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa @GlenH7
 
user20683
 
user20683
That bar/restaurant I mentioned
 
user41796
Chimay and Golden Carolus are generally great
 
user41796
9:17 PM
but if I can afford it, I'm always up for trying a new beer. Worst that happens is I know to never order it again. :-)
 
user20683
Revah is a good wine
 
user20683
it's not a great wine but it's solid
 
user41796
The St. Bernadus looks interesting. Quad's are almost always good.
 
user20683
it's also pomegranate
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 I actually like Matilda over all of chimay's stuff, but chimay never fails to please too if you want the traditional trappiste over the golden ale
 
user20683
9:19 PM
 
user20683
The bottled menu
 
user41796
They've got quite a few Ommegangs in that lineup, worth considering
 
user41796
Ommegang 3 Philosophers is yum!
 
user20683
Abbaye de Rocs Tripel Imperiale
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@WorldEngineer I never knew duckrabbit had an amber... they make an amazing milk stout
 
user20683
9:20 PM
That one looks tasty
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa McLaughlin's Imperial Stout is ridiculous
 
user20683
I couldn't talk about it without straying into erotic territory.
 
user41796
@WorldEngineer That's what makes it fun. protip: be on good terms with the bartender / waitstaff and they'll be much more likely to let you have samples of what's on tap without charging for them. When you're looking at a tenner for the beer, they're good about giving a sample first.
 
user20683
@GlenH7 yeah, I generally tip in the 30%+ range for booze
 
user20683
it's why I so rarely go out to restaurants for it.
 
user41796
9:25 PM
@WorldEngineer That and the almost double price as compared to the liquor store
 
user20683
@GlenH7 truth
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
9:41 PM
@WorldEngineer if you like stouts, you owe it to yourself to have sam smiths if you never have. Any of the sam smith stouts are fantastic.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 At the pub I used to go to in Mountain View, I got my cocktail experiments free. Some were good, some were... not good. Do not mix orange juice and Baileys (I think triple sec does work though).
 
user20683
@MichaelT Van Gogh's orange vodka
 
gnat
gnat
what's up with Data Explorer? Data it uses appear more than week old, and footer doesn't look updated despite yesterday promises...
4
A: SEDE's still got the old-school footer

Tim StoneI've submitted a pull request for this the other day, although it's to just remove the list of sites altogether (and synchronize the CSS a little): Linking to the full list of Stack Exchange sites seemed more practical than attempting to keep the footer up to date with all of those categories....

there are still bunch of sites instead of new looks
is it me, or maybe caching?
caching, a proven way to optimize user complaints. - It doesn't work!!! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work!! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work! - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't work. - Probably caching, wait for 5 minutes. - It doesn't matter. — gnat Jul 17 at 10:37
 
user55340
Whee! Finally got all the parts of my code together and its working.
 
user41796
@MichaelT OJ and triple sec definitely go together. triple sec is watered down orange curacao.
 
user55340
9:49 PM
@GlenH7 They are different... though I do know what you mean.
 
user55340
Personally, for orange liqours, I am a grand mariner fan.
 
user41796
there are quite a few new liquors on the market to compete with grand marnier.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Nonsense. You just got it all tied together; this is the part where it only appears to work. You know better.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:07 PM
This looks really cool. webnoir.org I'm still baffled by the performance of a WARP rest service but this looks like a more polished and rational version of what Nitrogen and Seaside were trying to do. Perfect example though of where S-Expressions gleams brightly making what Nitrogen and Seaside did klunkily both smooth and much more cohesive
I know I'm supposed to like yesod, but I just can't get over the strange magic involved in hamlet
Maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon not liking the whole scaffolded approach to websites where you press go and it creates a whole framework for you to work inside of with all kinds of auto-gen magic and expects you to use separate DSLs for every tiny part
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
10:41 PM
...why do you taunt me so, Y combinator... everytime I have to do anything that steps near fixed point recursion I start getting headaches, you'd think that stupid thing would have made its way into my head by now, grumble... Granted it's a problem I give myself with my approach, before haskell ruined me I never would have thought about solutions that got anywhere near fixed point recursion
 
psr
psr
@JimmyHoffa What little I know sounded like "how can I create a debugging nightmare that forces you to learn every detail of the implementation that in theory works magically?"
@JimmyHoffa It's going to take me a while to be able to even read fixed point.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@psr Yeah, I really tried to grok Yesod for a while, at some points I thought it was pretty great how hamlet let you do stuff and how it all worked with cassius and julius well, but I just couldn't shake that feeling of "But I just want some standard HTML here or better yet; why don't I just use WARP and make it work as a restful server and build the UI from, iduno, UI technologies like HTML and javascript.."
@psr Do you mean point free?
fixed point combinator is used to take one function that's not recursive, and make it recursive
Huzzah, I defeated it! It wasn't fixed point, it was just a really loopy continuation that got close enough to be confusing.
 
psr
psr
11:03 PM
@JimmyHoffa Yes. I either don't know or don't recall what fixed point is.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I've been procrastinating that bug for a while because I knew it had an infinite-type aspect to it if I did it wrong, great way to end a monday..
@psr fixed point combinator aka Y combinator is defined as: Y(f) = f(Y(f))
give a function to Y, it will return a form of that function which will execute recursively until it hits it's exit condition. It sounds well and good until you try to implement it, the semantics required to make it work are totally mind bending, even if you're comfortable with recursion
it's called fixed point recursion because the function is a fixed point; it's not bound to itself or bound to anything else, it's a free standing function that is bent by an external function to cause it to be recursive without actually holding a dependency on itself
or something like that; I can't explain it very well, it still confuses the crap out of me.
@psr Point free becomes natural with a bit of practice, but if you have to make too many where's or odd tweaks to functions to make them composable it becomes klunky and not worth it. The trick to point free (and haskell in general) is reading backwards; right to left rather than left to right, it gets much clearer then
Yeah, as soon as an instruction for a programming language involves reading it backwards, it may as well just say for higher performance flap your left arm the entire time you're coding and to reduce concurrency bugs you have to use a dvorak keyboard
 
psr
psr
Y(f)=f(Y(f)). Huh? So, if Y is square and f is 5, it gives you 5 applied to (5*5)? I think I may not entirely understand what the notation is intended to convey here.
 
user20683
11:29 PM
@psr it's notation for a recursive function
 
David Wallace
David Wallace
What if recursion leads you away from the fixed points, not towards them?
 
psr
psr
@DavidWallace I think you can easily get an infinite loop, thus @JimmyHoffa was worried about it. Based on my extensive expertise.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
11:44 PM
@psr yeah, it's hard to define the type signature is the tricky thing because you need to take a function that takes a function that takes a function ad infinitum, aka an "infinite type" which can't be constructed. You need some really weird indirection to make it work which is mind bending to derive
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
11:56 PM
it's the star at the end of the little schemer, the whole book supposedly gradually gets you to derive more and more recursive solutions until it tricks you into deriving the y combinator
such as I've heard anyway
 

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