The Whiteboard

6:00 PM

Unless I've unknowingly gotten stars..

What's the right action for questions that should be closed, but really should be closed on SO? Flag to migrate then close?

Rapier

is there all the guy here who made my topic as On Hold ?

i need to hear answer from all of them. beggnining is always hard, better not make a misstake

mistake* lol

jozefg

I think you've gotten quite a few suggestions here haven't you?

Rapier

i have thole internet of suggestions. i need sameness in opinons of those all experienced users. because now, i would have my topic full of reactions, but now i have to wait for guys to appear

not fair imo

whole*

jozefg

The problem is that your question doesn't have a definitive answer. The majority of the people here have said SICP + Scheme + DrRacket

You're not going to get a more clear cut response than that I'm afraid

Rapier

is this drracket ? http://racket-lang.org/
where is scheme

jozefg

6:16 PM

Racket is a language descended from Scheme, DrRacket offers a special mode especially for working through SICP that supports all of Scheme that you need

neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp see here

gnat

@jozefg Without CV privileges, Flag>it doesn't belong here, or it is a duplicate…>off-topic because... >This question belongs on another site -> pick a target

SO is one of the targets

for a site not in target lists, your only option is Other" type flag with custome exlanation

jozefg

Ok that's what I'm doing now, just wanted to make sure it was the "good SE citizen" response

gnat

@Rapier "sameness in opinons of those all experienced users" I see. Just in case if you count me among them, keep in mind - I disagree with everything said by jozefg and Jimmy Hoffa here :)

and with averything I said myself, but that should go without saying

jozefg

@gnat Ouch :P

Rapier

that's why i need to make my topic unlocked to make access to it by as much ppl as possible. because so far now in chat i met just like 5 ppl. which i cant make objective decision

jozefg

6:23 PM

But it's ok because one of those people was me :)

Rapier

i'm feeling ppl here are just having fun, while meanwhile talking casual about this very important topic to me. i need to make that topic unlocked, seriously

user20683

@Rapier Survey questions don't tend to work very well on Stack Exchange in general.

user20683

The idea with the Stack Exchange is that questions should result in answers that converge toward one single answer or cluster of answers

user20683

if all answers are personal opinion then all answers are valid.

user20683

"What language should I learn" questions have long been off-topic and yes, they've long been contentious as well.

Rapier

6:34 PM

you are what of them. so what would be your advice to me ? same like: book SICP + racket. is that all i need?

user20683

depends

user20683

what do you want to do?

user20683

What is your goal?

Rapier

no idea.

user20683

Learning a language is a goal of sorts but what do you want to do with that ability once you've acquired it?

user20683

6:35 PM

If you are learning a language just out of curiosity, then just pick one, if you don't like it, pick something else.

jozefg

Are you in this for a possible career or long term hobby? @Rapier

user20683

Also what platform are you using?

Rapier

i want be well prepared well educated programmer with universal skills. i dont be tied to web apps or web making something web fastmade, which is trend now

win but i need to be able make progrs for linux too

user20683

Universal skills aren't tied to language

user20683

if you've got universal skills, then you can learn whatever language you need to.

user20683

6:38 PM

something like Scala or Clojure (Lisp for the JVM) is useful toward that end because it has interoperation. On the other hand, learning Scheme is useful because the typical SICP route teaches you in-depth about computation.

Rapier

there was a opinion that for beginner is not good some kind of machine code lang like C, but better is something high, oop like.. dont know because they advised scheme. which is not like high and oop i think

user20683

Python is a good compromise.

user20683

but that's my own bias

user20683

C is good for understanding the low level machine workings of computers.

jozefg

@Rapier Jimmy Hoffa suggested C and then switched to Racket

Rapier

6:40 PM

y

jozefg

It's in the chat logs and you were in the room, go read them :)

user20683

@Rapier you'll understand the base of how memory works and other similar concepts.

user20683

You'll then learn abstraction of those concepts into higher forms.

user20683

but you lose a certain amount of control.

user20683

C gives you near total control at the cost of abstraction.

Rapier

6:43 PM

i read on web somewhere that how much better is syntax or something better readable and short writable and makable in compare scheme vs haskell. haskell was winner. scheme has many (((())))))) there. racket is same ?

user20683

you have to worry about things like how large a memory space do I have? Is it continuous? How big are my integers?

user20683

Did I allocate space for x?

user20683

Scheme and other higher level languages abstract that away.

user20683

Scheme makes it easy to do things like write a compiler.

Rapier

y ok. but now i need to know:
1, scheme is racket http://racket-lang.org/, or racket is better /worse scheme ?
2, haskell has even better writing enviroment than racket ?

user20683

6:45 PM

Haskell is...kind of a monster

user20683

It has a very steep initial learning curve.

Rapier

dont know difference between IDE and compiler

user20683

okay

user20683

IDE is a set of tools with a user interface.

user20683

things like a compiler and a debugger

user20683

6:46 PM

a compiler is a program that takes the code of one programming language and converts it to another

Rapier

nice and clear now

user20683

ideally you should be able to work without an IDE

user20683

just the command line

Rapier

in true beginnings i wont need compiler, correct ?

user20683

you'll need one for some languages

jozefg

6:48 PM

You could do this without a computer to be fair, it'd just be very boring

user20683

and compilers are fairly easy to use

jozefg

Dijkstra suggested not letting students use a computer for the first 2 years of education

user20683

Scheme is a dynamic language that can executed line by line.

Rapier

simply compiler is part of each IDE so maybe i wouldnt a notice i'm using compiler, correct ?

user20683

right

user20683

6:49 PM

you'd push the "build" button

Rapier

1, scheme is racket racket-lang.org, or racket is better /worse scheme ?
2, haskell has even better writing enviroment than racket ?

user20683

and that'd activate the compiler

user20683

racket is a scheme

user20683

scheme is just a standard.

user20683

there are many implementations.

user20683

6:49 PM

What do you mean by "better writing environment"?

user20683

Haskell doesn't really come with an IDE.

user20683

there are IDEs for it but it's not a built in thing.

Rapier

i read on web somewhere that how much better is syntax or something better readable and short writable and makable in compare scheme vs haskell. haskell was winner. scheme has many (((())))))) there. racket is same ?
check syntax on the page begginming here: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/10/24/haskell-and-scheme-which-one-a/

user20683

Haskell's syntax has its own issues.

Rapier

like in that concrete case it is better but in other cases it is not ?

user20683

6:53 PM

What languages do you know now?

Rapier

none

user20683

okay

user20683

do not learn Haskell as a first language

Rapier

k

so only things i do need atm is to read book SICP and instal racket. done ?

user20683

more or less

user20683

6:54 PM

If you've got problems with installation ask on Stack Overflow or in this chat.

Rapier

i'm picking the correct lang for weeks. im tired, but i dont want make a mistake, in the begging, because it is always a hardcore

user20683

issues with programming environments and their installation and management are technically off-topic on Programmers.

user20683

"An error only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it"

jozefg

@Rapier Well good luck!

user20683

you're going to make mistakes, learning to fail well and keep going anyway is the most important part of learning to program.

user20683

6:56 PM

I once spent 40+ hours getting one thing to scroll properly

user20683

and it still wasn't totally working

Rapier

i wont correct an error by learning not good lang for me for few months/years unntil i figure out that better learn something else. i need to avoid this situation

i mean if i would figure, that i was for months learning bad lang, i will stop programming forever

user20683

Scheme isn't a bad language

user20683

it's power is directly proportional to the amount of knowledge about computation that you have/

user20683

SICP is a difficult book but push through it, by the end you'll be well equipped to learn other stuff and it will seem trivial compared to what you've just done.

user20683

6:59 PM

norvig.com/21-days.html

user20683

read that

user20683

Norvig is a legend in the field.

Rapier

is a book or one page article?

user20683

it's an article

user20683

not long

user20683

7:00 PM

worth the read.

user20683

Programming like anything worth doing well takes time and practice.

Rapier

ok i go eat now. so things seems clear. read that book + install and make somethinng in rocket or just try exercises from book there

user20683

read carefully and good hunting

Rapier

ty men. i will try. i hope it is not high IQ required there ^^

user20683

@Rapier There is no IQ like determined effort.

Rapier

7:03 PM

just faster and slower results i guess

user20683

exactly

user20683

@Rapier if you've more questions I'll be around but I've got a compass to finish so responses may be delayed.

Rui Vieira

-___- /off-topic moan
Order take-way just because of discount voucher. Forgets to add discount code.

user20683

@RuiVieira is the discount voucher still good later?

Rui Vieira

@WorldEngineer, yeah. at least that.

user20683

7:11 PM

@RuiVieira Think of this as "avoiding premature optimization" :P

Rui Vieira

@WorldEngineer ehehe. I "failed fast".

user20683

precisely

jozefg

@WorldEngineer Hey you go to georgia tech, I'm applying there this fall

user20683

@jozefg I currently work for their bookstore

user20683

I graduated with CS and Religious Studies from State in the spring

jozefg

7:17 PM

Ah, congrats!

So hows the Real World

user20683

@jozefg Georgia Tech will try to kill you. Be ready.

user20683

not so real yet, still job hunting

Jim G.

7

Q: Book with some actual software project designed

Do you know a book where an actual software piece is designed as an example and all steps are mentioned? I assume that I have a project alone so communication of ideas is not an issue. I'd like to see how it's done properly. I've seen trivial UML diagrams for examples, but nothing a bit more c...

user20683

I've worked 25 hours+ a week for the last 6 years.

jozefg

Haha I'm at MIT for a summer internship, it's like that here too

Jim G.

7:18 PM

^^^ Did somebody just delete my answer to this question???

jozefg

I see your answer @JimG.

jozefg

7:54 PM

Can someone give me an opinion on dannygratzer.com/2013/07/on-starting.html

user20683

@JimG. It's still there

jozefg

@WorldEngineer I was inspired by @Rapier to write a blog post lol

user20683

@jozefg I'll read through it, if it's solid, I'll kidnap it for the Programmers blog if you want.

jozefg

That'd be great @WorldEngineer

user20683

I was looking at doing a massive "This is how" for programming in general but this might be a good precursor/short form

user20683

7:58 PM

@jozefg What are your interests anyway?

jozefg

PLT + Formal verification

I can write something along the lines of "Here's what to do" if that's better for you

user20683

@jozefg Tech's got a good set for that

jozefg

Ok sounds good

user20683

The department head wrote a book on P=NP called "The Golden Ticket"

jozefg

Ah really? Cool :)

user20683

8:06 PM

@jozefg The CS program at Tech has these things called "Threads"

user20683

there are 8

user20683

you pick two

jozefg

Ok, so PLT is a thread and hci is another one sort of thing?

user20683

sorta

user20683

cc.gatech.edu/future/undergraduates/bscs/threads

user20683

8:08 PM

@jozefg You'll probably want Systems and Theory

jozefg

Ah I see, so I've heard that it's easy to get it, but then lots end up dropping/failing out, is that the case?

user20683

yeah

user20683

attrition is very real

user20683

Tech will try to kill you in the first two years particularly.

user20683

How's your math?

jozefg

8:12 PM

Solid, I'm just finished calc 4 at the uni of minnesota (I ran out of high school stuff to take)

user20683

@jozefg Linear Algebra?

user20683

That shows up in Calc II at Tech

jozefg

multivar, linear algebra was the semester before that

user20683

Calc I: math.gatech.edu/course/math/1501

user20683

Calc II: math.gatech.edu/course/math/1502

user20683

8:14 PM

Calc III for CS: math.gatech.edu/course/math/2605

jozefg

Yeah looks like i'm through calc III

user20683

@jozefg Your life will so, so much easier

jozefg

Ah excellent :)

user20683

best piece of advice I can give you is take some philosophy/history and writing classes if you can. Get some breadth

user20683

technical writing is hugely valuable

jozefg

8:17 PM

Sounds good, yeah as you've probably noticed my writing is ehh

user20683

it's not bad

jozefg

Thanks, actually philosophy sounds pretty interesting

user20683

@jozefg State has a solid program

user20683

it's hard but worth it.

user20683

Logic is a good thing to take if you're interested in formal stuff for CS

jozefg

8:20 PM

Sweet, yeah I have to read a lot of formal logic stuff for formal verification

user20683

some ancient philosophy is also good, get an idea of where we've been

jozefg

Plus it's occasionally nice to do something not related to computers haha

user20683

yeah

jozefg

So what threads did you do?

user20683

none

jozefg

8:26 PM

?

user20683

I did Computer Graphics and HCI to graduate

user20683

State has no threads

jozefg

Ah I see

user20683

they have concentrations instead: Databases/AI, CGI/HCI, Programming Languages/Systems, Theory, Networking, Hardware.

jozefg

I see, I always think it's kinda funny that PLT which is crazy abstract a lot of the time gets paired with systems, I know why, but it's still odd

Anyways, I'm going to go find some lunch, goodbye!

user20683

8:32 PM

ciao

gnat

9:34 PM

1

Q: Why do questions on this site seem to be deleted instantly if they have the word "machine code" in them?

Isn't writing machine code still software developing, just on the near lowest scale? If so, and if you agree that machine code is in fact software, why are questions regarding machine code deleted instantly? I have asked some myself involving assembler directives and resulting opcodes, but with...

discussion on-topic-definition

feels like trolling, but I for one would be interested in more details

user20683

@gnat aware and debating

user20683

Leslar but give it time

gnat

@WorldEngineer OIC. That explains it

user20683

@gnat no need to flag.

gnat

give it time - sure. Now that main riddle is solved, I can wait as much as needed. Suspense has gone

@WorldEngineer got it, no problem :)

gnat

11:17 PM

@WorldEngineer not flagging, :) merely pointing to er synchronized event. Account merge coming?

0

Q: How to find out what machine code is produced by an Assembler using directives, like db, dd, dw?

What, for example, does the asembler do with dw AAFF exactly? I need to know to write system software in machine code. Please don't speedily delete without at least giving an answer or trying to answer. Thank you. PS: I know Assembly and some few opcodes in x86, I just don't know what the asse...

machine-code

user20683

@gnat I can't comment on that

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