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2:38 AM
Um... I can't even. This appears to be nonsense. All of Mathematics is inconsistent. Turing machine are consistent‭ - Todor Genov‭ 2019-03-02 02:36:13Z
Oh, hey! It works.
Interesting.
This is an older question, utterly lacking in context. Determine the mode of the gamma distribution with parameters $\alpha$ and $\beta$‭ - Amanda R.‭ 2017-03-30 06:15:43Z
 
4:24 AM
This question is one of the reasons that I hate the proof-verification tag. I want to grade that "proof" as though it were one of my student's work. It falls off the rails at the sentence "It suffices to show that $a=\sqrt{2}$."
Everything that follows is polluted by the fact that the assumption of the existence of $\sqrt{2}$ is kind of a problem.
For those that are using the script which done tells you how many votes a thing's got, I am not sure why the previous linked topic is flagged for closure; I have not requested closure, only some discussion. It is possible(?) that the question could be edited. Alternatively, someone might be able to explain to me the use of the proof verification tag.
@Makyen
 
5:17 AM
@XanderHenderson I'm happy to help, but I'm not sure why you've pinged me. With "those that are using the script which done tells you how many votes a thing's got", are you talking about the URRS? That question does not appear to have any close-votes cast on it at this time. That may have changed from when you posted the above message.
 
5:42 AM
@Makyen Yes, if the thingy is called URRS. I know that it has no close votes; it has a close vote counter on the side of the chat page.
is that intentional?
That is, I didn't ask for closure (or deletion, or reopening, or any other action). I am not sure why the script is adding a counter.
 
5:58 AM
@XanderHenderson The URRS adds status information for every post that is linked in chat. Those that are actual requests have different styling, with an orange feature to the left of the brief status information. Like this:
image too big, one moment
The status information on other posts allows you to quickly see at a glance if something happened wrt. it's status, and mouse-over it to show a tooltip with score, up-votes, down-votes and views. It's just for information.
I'm certainly willing to change that, if it's wanted. Personally, I find it useful in SOCVR. It hasn't appeared to draw undue attention to the post, and in some instances it's helped identify problematic activity on the question or answer.
 
6:22 AM
@Makyen That should have been: It provides status for every linked post for posts on the main site, Mathematics. It doesn't provide status for linked posts that are on other sites (e.g. meta, meta.SE, etc.).
 
6:35 AM
"The question can not be formulated in Seeking personal advice more clear way. [close voters], please go back to school and finish your elementary math courses." Assuming $p_k$ % of the population have illness $M_k$ how much precent are mentally ill under 2 conditions?‭ - Robert Werner‭ 2019-03-01 21:02:03Z
 
 
5 hours later…
D1, D2, D3.
D4, D5, D6.
C1, C2, C3.
 
12:25 PM
D7, D8, D9.
@Makyen Thanks for putting in so much effort!
 
12:37 PM
@XanderHenderson Actually, it falls off the rails right at the title. It is unclear what "√2" is supposed to mean there. I didn't vote on the question though.
 
12:50 PM
@user21820 I tend to gloss over the title, but yes, you are correct.
I also didn't vote to close. The question is reasonable within the proof verification tag.
I just hate that tag and think that it should be eliminated.
But as long as it is around, the question is fine.
Maybe we need a "grade my homework" tag, too. :\
@Makyen Ah. Okay.
 
1:18 PM
 
1:29 PM
@TheSimpliFire My preference would be to see the first two closed as duplicates of this one, since the latter is actually pretty well written (as these things go). Alternatively, just delete the first two.
 
@XanderHenderson Casting a duplicate vote on an unanswered question isn't allowed...
 
Ah, of course. I would prefer, then, to close / delete the first two, and hope that the last gets reasonable answer.
 
@TheSimpliFire: you can always vote with the custom reason "because this is a duplicate" or "because the question has been reposted" (the first one is probably better here, unless there's more evidence that the same person is using more than one name)
The newest one is also a PSQ
If we were going to keep one of them, this one is the best composed math.stackexchange.com/questions/3129570/…
 
@CarlMummert Yes, that one. Keep that one.
 
2:22 PM
@TheSimpliFire @XanderHenderson @CarlMummert: Second one is up for deletion now. First one can't be deleted until the second one is gone.
Third one is perfectly fine to keep to me as well; I upvoted it and can't really see why anyone would downvote it.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:20 PM
 
5:11 PM
@TheSimpliFire For the sake of closing the first two as dupes of the third, the last one has an answer now. Of course, that is irrelevant, as the first two are closed and on their way to deletion. C'est la vie.
 
5:31 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, mostly dots in body (144): Weierstrass zeta function and Eisenstein series ✏️ by Pino--S on math.SE
 
I recently flagged this answer for deletion but it says that it was rejected
-3
A: Find this integral $\int_{\frac{1}{2}}^{1} \dfrac{x\ln x}{1+x^2} dx$

ZanfronioWolfram Mathematica solves it as $-\frac{\text{Li}_2\left(-\frac{1}{4}\right)}{4}-\frac{\pi ^2}{48}+\log (2) \coth ^{-1}(9)$, where $\text{Li}_2\left(-\frac{1}{4}\right)$ is the polylogarithm function. Numerically it's roughly -0.06930602220767343

The answer is obviously not an answer, but rather a comment. It adds nothing new to the website, except that it tells people that they can use wolfram to solve things. Yet moderators decided that it should stay while they're deleting tens of good answers just because the question had been closed as off-topic before.
I don't see the logic to be honest.
Five people have downvoted it. So, I'm sure it's not only me that sees a problem with the aforementioned answer.
 
6:10 PM
@stressedout It needs only 1 more delete vote. It should be a comment at most.
 
@BillDubuque Thanks. I don't have access to moderation tools so I can't see that. But here when I was trying to flag another low quality post, it told me that my latest flag was rejected. And here's what I see in my history
" not an answer – stressed out 19 hours ago declined - a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it "
 
@stressedout Alas, there are some folks who support such answers, e.g. see discussion in my old meta question. Imho oracle-based answers do not belong on the site.
 
6:26 PM
@stressedout If I look at the timeline there I see this review. So it's possible that your flag was not declined by mods, but from the review queue. (At least, if this review was actually initiated by your flag.)
I definitely remember that declined flag might in some cases be result of a review rather than moderator action. But it's not the case here - sorry I did not notice at first that you copied here: "a moderator reviewed your flag, but..."
Sorry, I should have read your message more carefully.
 
6:49 PM
@stressedout why is it obviously not an answer? The questions says "I need to find the value of :" The answer gives the value, symbolically and numerically.
If the questioner wants something other than they asked for that's their problem and a problem of the question post.
 
@quid That is a very interesting idea. The question also shows no effort on the side of the OP. What about that? I thought the fate of questions like that was obliteration :P
 
@stressedout well, vote to close it. Or stop complaining. I told you already that you cannot expect consistency. I'd certainly be in favor of this being closed.
 
So, to be clear on things here, questions that ask about the value of an integral which can be computed using available CAS are allowed and are not even closed, and answers to them that some members of the community assume to be plagiarized are OK too because they meet the low criteria set by the OP, asking a low quality question.
 
@stressedout what was unclear about " I'd certainly be in favor of this being closed."
(I won't vote to close this alone now, as it's likely to cause pointless friction.)
 
@quid I was talking about the answer that you think is OK. Sorry I couldn't make myself clear. I'm a slow thinker in English.
 
6:58 PM
@stressedout the post manifestly is an answer. Whether it's a poor answer is a separate concern.
2
Further, there was a comment there that linked to a meta post that discusses the subject in considerable detail.
 
@quid And a PSQ manifestly is a question. Why do people vote to close and delete them then? If quality is a separate concern, shouldn't that apply to questions as well?
 
@stressedout please get informed what the flags you use are intended for before casting them.
 
@quid Sure. I thought the explanations under each option is self-contained, but if there's more that I need to read, please give me the links. I'll appreciate it.
 
@quid Arguably false, since the OP asks how to find the answer, not only to know the answer. So I think whoever declined the flag (you?) was wrong. Even if they asked to know the answer then one could still argue it is not an answer since there is no easy way to verify it without knowing how it was calculated.
 
@BillDubuque that's a linguistic detail. Either interpretation is possible. I concede that likely the asker was more after something else. In any case it's not very clear if "This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether. "
I'd say it does attempt to answer the question.
 
7:08 PM
@quid I hope that you make decisions by serious thought, not mechanically based on what some silly SE boilerplate popup text says.
 
@BillDubuque yes. The post answered the question in a way. Thus, I did not see a reason to delete it as NAA. The reason why I recalled the text was since @stressedout referred to it specifcally.
 
@quid No, it most certainly did not answer the question since the OP explicitly asks how to find the answer. Your unfounded support for bots is quite disappointing
 
@BillDubuque using a CAS is a way to find it.
 
@quid I'm not interested in your usual word games yet again.... That was a very poor decison on your part.
 
@BillDubuque looking at the meta post you linked to it is clear that opinions on this are mixed.
If anything they are rather in favor of allowing such content.
 
7:13 PM
@quid The site is large enough that you can find folks who will object to almost anything. That doesn't imply those objections are wise.
 
@BillDubuque indeed! :-)
 
I've lost count of the number of times that I have critiqued answers where many things are pulled out of a hat - like magic. Magic is not mathematics. We should have much higher standards for answers. I'm deeply disappointed to see a moderator support magic vs. mathematics.
Being moderate is a good thing. But not going that far....
 
The voting on the meta thread you linked to clearly shows considerable support for allowing (certain) CAS based answers.
This includes an answer of me (+19/-3), and I think what I did is pretty much exactly in line with what I said back then.
Further, I'd like to point out that the answer is deleted by now and I did not undelete it.
'This depends on the question and the precise type of answer. If somebody wishes to simply know the value of some definite integral or some anti-derivative they might be perfectly happy with an answer of the form: Using SomeCASCommamnd you get Result. (Such an answer can also be non-trivial.)'
And: 'If the intent is unclear this is an issue with the question and should not necessarily be held against respondents. '
 
7:29 PM
@quid FYI: the votes are all messed up in that thread because some users mistakenly believed that I meant to banish all computer-assisted answers. In fact I was only concerned with answers consisting entirely of computer output with no explanation. I updated the question later, but by then it was too late - much of the voting had already occurred.
 
@BillDubuque be that as it may (it aways felt like a grasping for straws by somebody that saw they are in a minority) I don't think that the situation is as clear as to make a reasonable case that a moderator should feel an obligation to delete this type of content. If some community members want to delete it, I don't interfere. If I am asked to delete it I don't do it though. I'd then be on me to defend the deletion if somebody complains about that.
As the link provided by @MartinSleziak shows the initial review came out mixed. In doubt such things are kept around. Especially in the current case where comment somewhat suggests that a symbolic answer is not provided by a CAS.
 
@quid I have no what you are trying to say, but there is no doubt that high-quality insightful answers are in a minority on this site. We should aim to remedy that, not further it. This is a site for mathematics, not for magic.
 
7:45 PM
@BillDubuque part of what I tried to say is that in a case that seems unclear regarding policy/community opinion it seems wise for moderators to let the thing play out (especially if there is no imminent danger). Do you disagree with that? It'd seem surprising.
Separately, I don't think it's fair to describe that answer as "magic." It does state it was obtained by software, and says which one.
Something that cannot be said for example about math.stackexchange.com/a/563063 which nevertheless is quite popular.
To be clear, I don't endorse that (type of) answer and there the objection would seem (more) justified, but just to show that opinions diverge.
 
@quid Generally I do agree, but I think this is almost in the same category as spam to anyone who takes pedagogy seriously. But if you'd rather not get involved in such arguments I can respect that. To be clear, as I emphasized in the meta thread, I have nothing at all against high-quality CAS-assisted answers, e.g. CAS answers that provide (human intelligible) proofs. I spent decades working on a CAS (Macsyma) so I know their pitfalls very well.
 
8:00 PM
@quid That's good to know. Alas, the Hot list only exacerbates the problem. I suppose we should feel lucky that "answer" got only 204 upvotes from 154000 views.
 
@BillDubuque I suspect that probably some members voted up her answer because she describes on her profile that she has a medical condition that makes it difficult for her to write long answers. It's a possibility.
 
@stressedout Many suspect that account is a bot, and a bot typically can't hold conversations well, so it would need some excuse not to engage in conversations....
 
@BillDubuque By the way, I don't know if this is a good place to ask this or not, but from what I've seen so far, you seem to be an expert in algebra. So, what kind of mathematics is useful for developing CAS? Differential Galois theory for example? I'll probably ask a question about this if there's none yet.
@BillDubuque If that's true then it's really cool that bots can answer math questions.
 
@BillDubuque to evaluate the relevance of the answer it would have helped if OP had explained the context of the problem. In some it could be useful, in others it could be useless. To come back to the key question, my action. I'd also like to recall that if I had taken the other decision that is acted on the NAA flag as requested that would be definite. If I don't act on NAA, the process can go on.
 
@stressedout That's not something that could easily be answered in a chat message.
 
8:08 PM
@quid Sorry for my ignorance, but when something shows up in your review queue, do you have to act on it? Can't you just click skip if you're undecided or think that the process should go on?
 
@quid Yes, on 2nd thought maybe I was too harsh on you. That you let the community decide is a good thing. It all boils down to where one draws the line....
 
@BillDubuque OK. Then I'll ask a question about it later. Do you mind if I ping you then?
 
@stressedout Well it's not exactly rocket science to compose software that can feed integrals to a CAS. Probably soon (if not already) Alexa and others will handle such requests.
@stressedout I'm not the best person to ask since I haven't been keeping up on that research area much as of late (so I wouldn't know what is the best introductions for students these days).
 
@BillDubuque OK. Thanks.
 
@stressedout as explained above the initially community review came out "mixed". This then specifically raises a flag for the moderators to decide what should happen. We can delete the post (in which case no-one but another mod can undelete it) or not delete and dismiss the flag.
In that sense, no it's not possible to skip it.
Obviously we can let the flag around unhandled but in practical terms that has the same effect as dismissing it, viz. we don't do anything.
 
8:19 PM
@quid Ah, if those types of deletions are irreversible except by other mods then I think it is a good thing that mods don't delete there (except for things like spam).
 
@BillDubuque I think all mod deletes are irreversible.
 
@quid Thanks.
 
@quid I know most are, but for some reason I was thinking that those were different.
 
@stressedout in the specific case there was a slight twist, as your flag came later. But I then went with the initial decision on the disputed review that Martin linked. But the same applies.
 
@quid Thanks for clarifying. Even though we may disagree on pure-CAS answers, after explaining the limitations with the current mod tools I think I do agree that there is no better way to handle such flags. Your patience above was much appreciated.
 
8:26 PM
@BillDubuque you are welcome. I am glad we could clarify the situation and find some common ground.
 
@quid Thanks. Is there a way for users without access to moderation tools to see the history of a review? I mean something like this: math.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/1161504
Because even though I don't have access to moderation tools, I can still see it
 
Yes from the post timeline.
ah that does not work so well https://math.stackexchange.com/posts/IDofThePost/timeline
You have to edit the URL manually I think.
 
@quid Wow. That's amazing. Thanks.
 
@stressedout Expanding on @quid's comment, questions on MSE have the general URL format https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/[Post ID = some number]/title-of-question, and answers have the URL format https://math.stackexchange.com/a/[Post ID = some number]/[more numbers]
replace either questions or a with posts, and replace everything after the post ID with timeline
Instead of timeline, you can throw in revisions to see the revision history of the post.
So, a shortcut to getting the timeline of a post which has been edited is to click the link to see the revision history, then replace revisions with timeline
 
@XanderHenderson Thanks. Is there a shortcut for finding the ID of an answer other than looking for the link to it on the answerer's profile?
 
8:37 PM
There is a "Share" link at the bottom of the answer.
Click that. Doing so will generate a popup which includes the URL.
For example:
@stressedout
 
@XanderHenderson Nice shortcut. Thank you.
 
9:38 PM
@stressedout If you're interested, there are a few/several userscripts that add timeline and history links to posts. Personally, I use SE Modifications. Alternately, if you can't use userscripts, I wrote a bookmarklet that opens the timeline.
Another userscript I find quite useful is AutoReviewComments - Pro-forma comments for SE, which enables having a collection of comments from which you can select and have it inserted into the comment creation textbox (which you can then customize, if appropriate for the situation). It makes leaving comments in commonly occurring situations significantly faster.
 
9:57 PM
What do folks think about questions on (obvious) typos. Should we consider them off-topic and close and delete? I don't think that one adds any significant value to the site.
@Makyen What is the recommended way to install your scripts in Chrome (the GitHub install link fails with "Apps, extensions, and user scripts cannot be added from this website")
 
10:14 PM
@BillDubuque I'd suggest installing Tampermonkey (Chrome extension), which is a userscript manager. Once that's installed, you should be able to use the install links.
 
@quid Btw, coincidentally, I just stumbled upon another problem with CAS(-assisted) answers here. Namely, that crutch often leads to poor brute-force answers - which may discourage students from investigating more insightful approaches.
 
10:28 PM
Tampermonkey is, by a considerable margin, the most popular userscript manager. It runs as an extension on Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Safari, Opera Next, and Firefox. If you prefer open source projects, then there's Violentmonkey, which is available on Chrome, Opera, many other Chromium based browsers, Maxthon, and Firefox. Greasemonkey 4 (GM4) is also open source and works on Firefox.
While I was a strong proponent for Greasemonkey 3 (GM3) (worked on Firefox < version 57), I recommend against GM4, which no longer has the desirable advantages of GM3, and has significant disadvantages over the other userscript managers. While some of those disadvantages will, eventually, be rectified (and they've fixed a lot already), there are other issues which can have a significant impact on users that are the result of choices they've made for which there are no plans to change.
 
10:50 PM
@Makyen Thanks for all the useful info. I'm way out-of-date with script tech (too busy with other stuff and haven't really had the need). Generally I do prefer open-source (so I can hack the code if need be), but I'm not religious about it. I've done various open source work (e.g. on (X)Emacs), Lisp, etc)
 
11:18 PM
@BillDubuque Cool. Yeah, being able to hack the code (and review it, if needed) is a large portion of my preference for open source too. I've often found it quite beneficial to be able to be able to change the code on multiple projects.
 
@BillDubuque Possibly relevant:
4
Q: Would a new tag for mistakes/typos/errata for books be useful/appropriate?

Martin SleziakMaybe it could be called book-errata? I cannot give many examples of discussions from math.SE offhand but at least one example from here https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/34641/find-limit-of-unknown-function This is an example from a different forum: http://www.sosmath.com/CBB/viewtopic....

5
Q: I have found an error in a book/paper, what do I do?

Martin SleziakThis is a continuation of the discussion Would a new tag for mistakes/typos/errata for books be useful/appropriate?, where it was suggested that the FAQ might contain guidelines concerning the question: I have found an error in a book/paper, what do I do?

 

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