I really want to answer "One has a crossbar. The other does not."

PSQ

Very low quality.

PSQ

PSQ.

This seems rather flagrant math.stackexchange.com/q/3011873/29335

As if "effort" were all that mattered.

@XanderHenderson Err I don't even understand this (currently accepted) answer over there.

@user21820 Indeed. But I think that the problem is more that the question itself is a complete muddle.

The asker clearly found the answer useful...

anywho... bedtime

@XanderHenderson Good night!

@AlexanderGruber: I'm not sure what's the purpose of keeping this exact duplicate of a poor question instead of just deleting it. (It doesn't even have answers.) But a moderator had merged it and so it is now locked.

Poor Q on the hotlist

1D, 2D, 3C, 4D

Hehe @TheSimpliFire

5C, 6C, 7C, 8D

9C, 10C, 11C, 12C

This question has been asked many times before.

It also is not a very good question the way it is phrased this time.

How does it have three upvotes already?

@XanderHenderson Martin R has a better duplicate - with nearly the exact same format!

@TheSimpliFire I see Martin R's duplicate.

I don't think that it is actually a better dupe target, since the one I linked to includes an answer which discusses branch cuts (which is the relevant thing, if you ask me)

I'm tempted to vote-to-close Martin R's dupe target as an abstract duplicate of the one I found.

This one (linked by Martin R) is maybe better.

Keep, delete or merge? – Series Converge or diverges is a duplicate of Does series with factorials converge/diverge? but (as far as I can tell) at least one answer provides a new approach.

@MartinR The question post is worthless; I'd argue for deletion.

@XanderHenderson Perhaps some golden badge holder can add that one to the list.

If the answer with a new approach wants to go and answer the dupe target, they can be my guest. But this site is not necessarily in the habit of preserving answers to very very low quality questions.

I just discovered this comment template – it looks like reasonable (and non-condescending!) advice for “problem statement questions” from new contributors.

Another bad HNQ.

One more delete vote needed on this very low quality question.

@MartinR That's a nice text. I shall use it from now on.

@amWhy @Holo @AndrésE.Caicedo: Useless question and useless answer posted by a user who fallaciously thinks that Godel's incompleteness theorem is invalid.

@user21820 I can't see the second link :-(

Another PSQ on the hotlist

@Holo In short it says: "Gödel's (first) Incompleteness Theorem is invalid because it contravenes the Humility Principle, which states: If there cannot be sufficient information to know a statement is true then it's impossible and invalid to logically conclude the statement is true.".

It's a whole wall of text though, with no logical content.

@user21820 I see, thanks

@Holo Here is something you still can see:

1, 2, 3.

@user21820 @amWhy @XanderHenderson @JoséCarlosSantos @MartinR: 3 people have inexplicably voted to reopen it already.

@user21820 Look to the OP and the answerers for the upvotes. We need two more downvotes (I cast one) in order to delete the question.

@user21820 I have voted to delete it.

@JoséCarlosSantos How is that possible? We still can't.

@JoséCarlosSantos (@user21820) You downvoted it. We need another downvote, and then can vote to delete.

It has another downvote @amWhy @user21820

@Holo Thanks, has two delete votes; needs 3rd from @user21820 or @JoséCarlosSantos

@user21820 Sorry. My mistake. amWhy is right: I downvoted it.

@JoséCarlosSantos Now you can vote to delete it if you wish. We already did.

@JoséCarlosSantos That was good, actually, because we now can vote to delete it, with Holo's downvote, too.

Yet another HNQ with "no idea".

@JoséCarlosSantos We need your delete vote here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3012750/9003

@amWhy Done.

@JoséCarlosSantos Yay! Thanks!

Consider deleting:

1. 2. 3.

4. 5. 6.

7. 8. 9.

10. 11. 12.

@user21820 The second in the chain is now up for deletion: namely this dupe.

PSQ, two of them in one post.

@amWhy thanks for linking that. Properly scolded. :-)

@TheGreatDuck Didn't aim to scold, only to remind!

@amWhy fair enough.

Scolding does remind though.

@TheGreatDuck True, but I really am working to not come across as "scolding". Maybe I'm failing.

@amWhy you misunderstood. I properly scolded. I was saying I took care of the problem you linked to. Granted I’m getting some lip in response. Might need a mod to put the user in their place.

Not sure yet

@TheGreatDuck Okay. I get it. A mod destroyed most of the teachable moments, as they too often do when appeasing whining answerers. I still included, afterward, a link to @quid's post in "whatever, quid" chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47167254#47167254, which argues that it is perfectly appropriate to downvote, vote to delete, answers which answer problem statement questions. In this case, had the handling mod read the original PSQ, they may have acted differently.

But when there are three or four "Let us answer anything, even crap!!" advocates flagging a mod, then that mod is unfortunately apt to favor the crowd, rather than reason, even though they take diametrically opposed actions in other scenarios. Mods are only human, and subject to wanting to be popular, I guess.

@TheGreatDuck that's not an appropriate attitude on your end. Behave more correctly towards others.

Well, fancy you stopping in, @quid!

@amWhy there was a lot of tangential discussion in that comment thread as well as in some others. As for "teachable moments" I think some of it was helpful for OP but there is no need to preserve it.

@amWhy I scolded the asker but apparently that’s not allowed here. The asker is the one attempting to enter our site and add bad questions. I never scold people who answer. People shouldn’t need to filter what they do and do not answer. That’s like saying people have to close vote if they see a bad post. They don’t have to. They can choose to stay out of site politics and just answer questions.

@quid I disagree. You rob users from full information on which to base votes. Please stop cushioning users from consequences. You make other users, like me, suffer as a result.

Indeed

@TheGreatDuck no it's not allowed in that form.

@quid telling someone their question is not allowed is against the rules of the site? Hmm that’s odd. Then I think we have serious problems.

@TheGreatDuck "Scolding" others is usually a bad idea. Educating others, encouraging others, supporting others to make changes ... that's the aim. You, nor I, nor anyone, is in a position to "scold" anyone else; that just elicits shame, or anger. No, scolding has a judgemental, "shaking one's finger at" another, feeling to it. It's one thing to say: "Don't post such crap! It's not welcome here!" and another thing to say...

@amWhy that is what scolding is

any act of correction

is scolding

right?

@amWhy there were numerous comments about the use of "dear" That has no place on the site.

At least no permanent one.

Matt E was who I first encountered on this site addressing users as "dear". I used it only to preface what I was saying with a respectful acknowledgement of the user. There is nothing bad, dear @quid, about addressing another user in such a manner, when you are aiming to talk face-to-face with them.

And besides, you deleted a significant number of my legitimate comments not containing any reference to "dear user". It was a matter of "easier to scrub everything, than deal with the fact that some of the comments are legit."

@amWhy I don't have a specific issue with the use of "dear" but with comments going on and on about it. That's off-topic.

@amWhy they were legit; now they are "no longer needed"

A main design idea of the site is not to preserve all the back and forth.

That a comment was deleted does not mean it was "bad"; it can as well mean it was good and has served it's purpose.

@quid It was too soon. I agree that the context can go away; but here, a couple whining users throwing around flags were enough to push a mod to delete matters that were still relevant, and could properly be deleted in six hour. If that's what it takes to shut some people up, then let me know, and I'll start wielding flags left and right, to silence others.

How were they still relevant?

Heck, I face grief regularly for flagging to delete "old" comments, and such, and am scolded: Wait!! It's too soon!!.

I also deleted some comment complaining about dv specifically on another answer there.

@amWhy that's not really an answer.

But granted there is some difference in practice among the mod team I suppuse.

@quid From what I saw, two answers were downvoted. If you refuse to address the repeated resurgence of "I can answer whatever I want, and others can up or downvote me. There is nothing forbidding me from answering this question"... and the question is a PSQ (two PSQs originally, with no effort or source or context according you your new proposal), I think the ensuing discussion is valid. If you plan on deleting every such instance in which such issue comes up, when another, like me,

...tries to appeal to words you once wrote, not too long ago, and within one hour, the entire discussion is deleted, than you've wasted my time, and you're instructing me to essentially stop reviewing, stop caring, and let the site morph into the dwarf it will then become.

I'm sick of, too often, some mods saying one thing to one audience, and "saying/doing" another thing when it's most crucial they back up what they've already said. Or enforcing against behavior x, and then doing behavior x (in the case of, I guess, only one mod currently).

@amWhy you're targeting the wrong people. The askers need to be stopped from asking PSQs in the first place. The posts shouldn't be getting created in the first place. I've advocated for months now here and there that an automated screening system would be ideal, but apparently it's "not nice" to not let people get their precious answers. This site is meant as a repository. We need to be taking out the trash and only keeping the golden content.

and maybe the silver content

whatever that means

@TheGreatDuck "how will this question benefit the future of mankind?" is not an efficient way to explain that.

@quid explain what?

Give clear and polite advice or refrain from commenting.

answer my question

explain what

@TheGreatDuck if this needs an explanation, then I am afraid you are not really qualified to help new users.

"is not an efficient way to explain that."

you used a pronoun that could be referring to any number of things discussed here

im asking for you to be specific

but you wont it seems

apologies

@TheGreatDuck that users should not ask PSQs.

that wasnt what the comment was intended to convey

the comment was conveying that the question does not contribute useful material to the site

and is therefore off topic

In any case, @quid, I do entirely trust that you are fully supportive of improving the site. I never doubt that, nor do I doubt what you clarified in "whatever, quid".

or has that decision flip flopped again?

I keep getting different answers

are questions required to have a real world or notable mathematical application?

@TheGreatDuck no.

That would be too much to ask for.

oh

the policy must have changed

@TheGreatDuck if you want to explain this do it clearly and politely, not via some rhetoric question.

it was like that about a year or so ago

@TheGreatDuck no it did not.

it also wasn't rhetorical

@TheGreatDuck it was never like that. If you do not know that refrain from commenting.

@TheGreatDuck Those questions would evaporate if certain answerers would stop reinforcing them by answering them. We need to be on the same page: Expect context for questions. Expect answerers to not answer questions without context.

@TheGreatDuck I don't think this discussion is going anywhere with you.

@amWhy while I can somewhat connect to that feeling, those to whom the comments were addressed had seen them. I also left one critical comment.

@amWhy askers should not discriminate on what they answer. If they are trying to game the system that is fine, but users should to some extent be allowed to answer freely with whatever question they find they can answer.

There's a clear notion of politics and just Q and A on this site

we shouldn't erequire everyone to be involved in the policits

I'll also say that the discussion did not really start all that well there.

@quid But why do they continue to act as though no mod has weighed in?

@quid @amWhy I remember reading a post on meta some time ago about a year ago where someone stated that questions had to be notable and it appeared to be somewhat well upvoted. Hence why I said a policy/opinion change. If that wasn't a reputable post or it was/is outdated then fair enough.

@TheGreatDuck I disagree. There is no license to answer anything whatsoever. Doing so only feeds the "help vampires". There are guidelines to how to write a good answer, and one of the most prominent is to refrain from answering poor questions.

@quid That's true; I agree.

@amWhy then the help centers saying how to answer need to say that you must engage in censoring with respect to what you answer. There is nothing obvious telling a new user asking such a PSQ that they cannot go and write well-written posts answering other PSQ questions or otherwise. In fact, afaik the only actual rule on the books is to not answer things that are blatantly off topic and not about math.

@TheGreatDuck I don't want to bring this up, i.e., your own question history. You who are so damnating against poor questions?

@amWhy I didn't ask PSQs.

if anything I tried to give ten pages of context because I was worried I would be accused of that

@amWhy I mean honestly every single one of my questions is bad or in some way unfit for anywhere imo

but I have much higher standards

and sometimes I just need to get things done

All I'm saying is that people first coming here don't always know much about Math.SE. The answerers usually speaking, have been here longer, and know more about expectations. To expect newer users to abide by standards that users here for a longer period don't abide by is ridiculous. The best way to change behavior is by not reinforcing it, but rather, enforcing positive change. As long as there are users who reinforce the asking of poor questions by answering them, there will continue to be

@amWhy my issue isn't with poor quality. It's with the severe bloat that such users introduce. Plus they try to cheat on contests and homework. That's what I take offense to. The site does not have enough memory to store a bunch of teenagers looking to cheat on homework. Even if it does, big brother SE will eventually get annoyed by it enough that they'll just shut the site down and do a full reset. I've seen it happen numerous times when low quality content endures on a site.

brb in a bit

poor questions asked. If we stop reinforcing poor questions, by refusing to answer them in their poorest form, askers will much more quickly and to their benefit, learn how to ask well. Those who don't care to ask well, or don't care to participate on those terms, aren't ready for this site, and can come back when they are ready to participate. Answerers who no longer have psq's that they get upvoted for answering, can focus on answering better questions, or leave.

@TheGreatDuck They can only do these things if there are ready and willing answerers to help them cheat and do homework. That's what I take offense to. Users coming here to cheat or get homework done can't succeed unless others aid and abet in those ends.

@amWhy and see I feel that if they are cheating or trying to cheat then it is our duty as a community to in some way actually punish them for cheating. Either by informing the owners of the accounts email or whatever. It’s better that we deal with the cheaters then they simply go to a friend they know in person. At least here we can attempt to ensure they get caught.

but that’s an ideal world

@TheGreatDuck When such measures are available, perhaps. But it's a joke to punish the cheaters and give free reign to those who enable cheaters.

@amWhy you miss my point. A psq does not equate to a cheater but requiring that all posts have a notable purpose makes the site healthier in the long term

MO is for deleceloping theories

MSE is for things that are actually useful

"notable purpose" Who gets to define that?

community consensus

or alternatively

add a context box

literally just a separate piece of the question form

that must be filled with some minimum

@TheGreatDuck The community has often reached the consensus that your questions aren't useful or of "notable purpose".

and that is where your context goes

@amWhy which is why I’ve tried and failed to 100% delete everything in good faith with that

but apparently the mods take offense to that

@TheGreatDuck You aren't adding anything that hasn't been discussed before. If the community, including answerers don't enforce a community consensus wrt which questions stay open and get answered, and which don't get answered but get closed, you're saying very little that hasn't already been said.

@amWhy fair enough. But see I feel the issue is in the community itself

if 90% want psq

then the 90% need to go

but we can’t do that

so we just run in circles

@TheGreatDuck You've gone on self-deletion binges, begging for delete votes; only to turn around and post dozens of requests, back to back, in the "request for reopen/undelete thread" begging to have your questions reopened... What gives?

I’ll admit

some of those were simply to get rid of posts I wanted private

not because of an actual need to remove them

i just wanted people to not be able to search for them

but that was in error

my point is that right now 99% of the entire site

is bad questions

i can’t go anywhere without finding a psq

right now the problem with the site is systemic

i see what you mean now by answerers

but we need to be writing these policies somewhere official

meta is grest

But nobody knows about meta immediately

when I read the help center

i see the site as the following

you ask a question. You get an answer. Period.

unless it’s in some way literally unreadable

or not math

Obviously it’s nit that

@amWhy what do you suggest the action should be to correct this whole problem?

i mean words and ideas are great

but what do we do?

perhaps I'm just a bitter person who won't ever be happy with the state of this site.

:-P

"This question fits the criteria of a problem statement question. Currently we encourage users on this Stack Exchange site to not simply post the statement of their problem but also any attempts to solve the problem, thoughts on it, or background information that while irrelevant might enrich-en the content of the site. Please consider editing your post to correct this. Thank you."

@TheGreatDuck We continue to struggle with this question. There was a meta question, I can't find it off hand, but @quid transferred much of the discussion to their chat "whatever quid" right around this post in that chatroom. There, quid mentions the need for a strict delete policy for PSQ-style questions, as well as clarifying that it is in fact against site policy to answer poor questions/PSQ's

^^something we might want to consider posting in response to PSQs

@amWhy I see. Now will older answers by considered exempt or will the policy change be retroactive such that those older answerers be now in violation of the site rules and therefore subject to a timeout?

Because the latter would send a very clear message.

We need to attack or address PSQ's at both the level of the asking, and the answering of them.

not what I asked

if say

6 months ago

someone answered a psq

will they now be retroactively subject to a ban or mod timeout.

My comment came while you posted the former post, and was not an answer to it.

ah ok

@amWhy my copypasta comment got the first asker to voluntarily retract their question

was there something wrong with it or did they just chicken out on fixing it?

@TheGreatDuck That has been addressed here and there. Currently, there seems to be more empathy for not subjecting posts posted and answered say, two or more years ago. But there is still some deletions of older posts going on. A firm consensus would be good.

ah

so delete the posts

because they violate

but don't punish people

that makes sense I suppose

shame though because retroactive banning would be simultaneously a good way to get a good chuckle and also deal with all the supposed PSQ encourages on one fell swoop.

I am concerned about the whole idea behind following a user though

what does that mean

I know targeting criticism and/or votes is wrong

but if a user is known to have a lot of formatting issues for instance

(I don't know of any like that)

what is the reasoning behind checking all the posts and fixing them being wrong?

like

if we know a user needs many posts edited to be fixed

and we have a convenient list

why not edit them

and furthermore

does browsing a user's profile to look for things to answer break the rules?

It is strongly discouraged and not appropriate to scour a single user's profile to examine (edit, downvote, vote to close, vote to delete) each and every post of any single user. That's considered "targeting" a user. Similarly, it is strongly discouraged and not appropriate to scour any single user's profile to upvote a whole bunch of posts.

@amWhy but what about scouring to see what can be answered?

people are only allowed to search for things to answer via the tags right?

and the search window

to prevent answer discrimination

@TheGreatDuck You can do that on the list of all questions, or the list of all questions under a favorite tag.

no i meant we're only allowed to answer via those right?

we cant use links or profiles to find questions correct?

@TheGreatDuck Right, pretty much.

@TheGreatDuck Right

@TheGreatDuck Right

i dont know for sure but I've always been under the impression that if you don't answer all questions that you see that you are capable of answering then you run the risk of being charged with some form of discrimination such as racism or sexism.

though now im probably going extreme

maybe not every

Basically, if you can answer a user's question, don't go looking for other questions from that one asker that you think you can answer. If you come across another one tomorrow, and you want to answer, that's fine, but don't "follow" them.

yeah cause one time I saw someone linking an MSE question on reddit

so i had the mods there remove the link

to prevent them from getting unwarranted views

@TheGreatDuck That would drive a lot of people mad! Very few people, no matter how smart on this site, can answer all the questions they are capable of answering. This site has ballooned from what it originally was.

@amWhy hahaha yeah. "every" wasn't meant so literally. I was thinking more along the lines of that you only look for posts via the official MSE search. Not google. Not via a question posted on an external site. You only attempt to answer when it is found via the SE search tools.

but

People are free to sort by tags/topic, they are free to skip PSQ's, they are free to consider the time they have available at the moment of encountering a question they might want to answer... or not answer because they're hungry or need sleep. We're just cautioned not to answer or vote etc. based soley on whose doing the asking or answering.

I suppose many people break that rule too

oh

it's just that

I thought the goal was to actually balance which subjects on the site have answers and which dont

like if too many calculus questions have answers we have to start answering others

at least

the MSE suggestions seemed to always indicate that

I never bothered to ask if that was actually a policy or not

im going to go look for PSQs now

opinion based

math.stackexchange.com/questions/3013595/… PSQ