CURED - 2018-02-21

6:11 AM

Just for the record - there is another question on meta related to the topic of this room: Is deleting a question while it is still on hold too quick?

user21820

8:46 AM

@Did @amWhy @ZacharySelk @ProfessorVector: The above Meta post mentions a question by this user who practically only posts PSQs. This is such an open-and-shut case that I can't understand who would disagree that those PSQs are bad for the quality of Math SE.

SmokeDetector

11:56 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer: Regional Mathematics Olympiad(RMO-India) Geometry Problem by user533708 on math.SE

Widawensen

@Did English is not my native english also , So I hope there will be no misunderstandings due to the language. "Which questions", you have asked... I'm not speaking that there are not bad questions at all, several times I voted to close such ones by myself, but if the question is clearly formulated and answer can be interesting maybe also for the answering person and others, why not to answer ? There are different POV, who has monopoly for truth?

@Did There is no way to check whether the question is a homework or something more, so we can at least assume a good will. At least cancellation can be considered when a question is relatively new.
But when the question has already many answers it is not independent one but should be considered as a whole.
@Did The users put their effort and time to prepare the answers, sometimes quite long like in the case mentioned on meta and to delete all these texts, unexpectedly and for ever it's for me a sign of disregard for the work of others. It is some form of collective punishment, but supposed …

user21820

12:12 PM

@Widawensen You say that it is your personal view, but not only is it contrary to the official site policy, you repeatedly denigrate others via disrespectful insinuations and the like. Note that by your own argument that questions are more worth keeping when they have good answers implies that you answering poor questions goes against the site policy, since you are effectively saying that doing so makes one more obliged to keep poor questions.

I will let your comment about "hell" pass, but it is borderline religious insensitivity, if not outright slander. Please do not repeat such remarks.

Widawensen

@user21820 What "insinuations" ? Here I am a victim where my work was destroyed.. Clearly stated question is not a poor question, you mean probably supposedly homework question, but it is controversial anyway how to recognize homework from not homework, for example - certainly for 90 percent calculation of integral is a homework but how we should be certain , could we should prohibit calculations of integrals for someone ?

@user21820 There are difficult problems, should be considered with caution, for me the most important is respect for others work..

user21820

@Widawensen You clearly did not read the link to the site policy. Do I have to spoon-feed you just like you spoon-feed these PSQ askers?

131

Q: How to ask a good question?

How to ask a good question? This thread has advice on the following aspects of writing a good question on this site. Each item in this list links to an answer below about that specific aspect of question writing. Provide context Choose a good title Formatting and writing Tag your question corr...

@Widawensen I have no respect for people who tell other people indirectly that they are going to hell!

Widawensen

@user21820 Never said that...

user21820

@Widawensen If you insist on that, I will delete the useless remarks you made in this room.

Widawensen

@ user21820 I don't insist, ok delete link to the proverb..

user21820

12:29 PM

→ 1 message moved to trash

Similarly, do not insinuate that what we do here is like a trial from Kafka. I will leave that comment for now since you directed it at Did and I do not know if he has read it. But it is very disrespectful and you ought to know that very well.

Widawensen

Yes, mutual respect is important and I try to show it, maybe awardly,

user21820

And concerning homework, I definitely distinguished between poor questions and homework questions and cheaters' questions. I clearly emphasized that we cannot tell whether a question falls into the latter two categories or not, but we can tell quite objectively (see the Meta post) whether it falls into the first category or not.

Widawensen

awkwardlyy I mean

user21820

No problem, I understood.

(You also can edit previous messages for 3min by pressing Up.)

Widawensen

I'm not accustomed to chat rooms, it is literally my first time when I'm chatting..

user21820

12:36 PM

That's perfectly fine. I'm just letting you know that there are quick ways of fixing typos, in case you wish to use them next time.

Widawensen

Ok, there are ways of fixing, I was thinking about these supposedly homework questions, maybe they should be somehow specially marked, maybe with other color ( red?), or maybe put invisible for new users ( but visible to old users which would not lost in that way their answers), anyway in it were be a way closing such question without destroying of work of answering persons it would be maybe the best solution...

user21820

I believe I answered that before:

yesterday, by user21820

Thirdly, concerning deleted content, if it cannot be found anywhere else on the internet or the site, and it is well-written and not crank output (there have been many cranks on Math SE) then I agree that it should be somehow preserved. And for the third time I'm saying there are other ways to do so other than to edit and re-open the lousy question. One can easily post a new good question (such as a generalization or a properly motivated question) and transfer the answer there.

yesterday, by user21820

Note that Martin Sleziak himself has done this before, and generally such repostings have been well-received.

And users with 10k rep can see all deleted questions and answers, and so they can if they see fit vote to undelete.

@Widawensen: I don't think you realize that there's a lot of things you haven't seen as a relatively new user here.

But keeping it around for low rep users to see is equivalent to not deleting it at all, and sending a clear message that anyone can post lousy questions with no fear of it disappearing (because of users who think that good answers should be kept at all costs).

It's not so simple as you may think.

Widawensen

@user21820 Of course, I'm relatively new, I have no so much time to be here as I wish ..

Martin Sleziak

In fact, I think all users can see their own posts that were deleted. (Assuming they have a link.) I am sure it's true for questions, but I think the same is true for answers. So in this sense, the answer is not really lost - it is only visible to less users.

user21820

@MartinSleziak Yes any user can see at least their own recently deleted answers:

yesterday, by user21820

Fifthly, you can see posts of your own that have been recently deleted, by going to your Activity page; on the Answers tab at the bottom there should be a link to recently deleted answers. Same for question.

Which is one of the many things I told Widawensen the last time.

Widawensen

12:50 PM

@MartinSleziak I suppose it is visible only one week? month? then lost..

Martin Sleziak

In fact, we can test this: @Widawensen Here is link directly to your answer math.stackexchange.com/questions/2429346/… and here is link to a deleted question math.stackexchange.com/questions/2429346/…

Can you see them?

@Widawensen I highly doubt there is any time limit. As long as you have a link, you can view your own question, even if it is deleted. (And I think the same is true for answers.)

Widawensen

@MartinSleziak Yes, it is still visible but I'm afraid it's only temporary

user21820

@Widawensen If it's visible for some time, you could easily copy it out and save somewhere if it is really valuable. But in fact I think that you can forever see them.

Martin Sleziak

As I said, it's not temporary. There is time restriction how long a link is shown in your deleted recent posts. But if you have a link, you can still see the post.

Widawensen

But others deleted answers are not visible..

user21820

12:52 PM

@Widawensen That is the point of deleting them, otherwise it is stupid to have the deletion feature in SE.

Widawensen

I wish I could see also my reputation which gone for this question ;)

Martin Sleziak

@Widawensen Yes, as I wrote, this was explicitly about viewing your own posts. You will be able to see deleted posts of others when you reach 10k.

@Widawensen There is a checkbox "show removed posts" in the reputation tab.

Widawensen

I'll never reach 10k with vanishing questions... My time is also limited for that purpose..

user21820

@Widawensen I'm not so sure about that. By the way, the reputation change includes both upvotes and downvotes; the effects of both are cancelled. So for some really lousy posts, deleting them actually increases the reputation of the poster...

@Widawensen Focus on answering good questions, and your answers will never vanish, and if they do, come here and let us know. This room is also for undeletion, if you haven't noticed.

Widawensen

@user21820 Mine was decreased by 30 points..

@user21820 Undeletion? I was thinking that rather for deletion...

user21820

12:59 PM

@Widawensen I'm saying that the only reason you would worry about deletion is if you answer poor questions. If you answer good questions, you have every reason to ask for your posts to be undeleted if you find them missing for no good reason, and we certainly will help you with that.

Widawensen

@user21820 Anyway I was completely unaware of existence of such room...

user21820

@Widawensen Well, from time to time I come across good questions that were deleted/closed and vote to undelete/reopen. Sadly however, they are rare.

Widawensen

This is the main problem, what is poor, what is good, ...

user21820

See the Meta post. I'm sure you haven't read it in full...

Widawensen

@user21820 Maybe not, but the first point - this providing the context is something discussable taking into account my experiences, most users like short questions the most, maybe too long question is not popular because it requires too much attention, check available records it seems to be the rule here...

user21820

1:07 PM

@Widawensen That's nonsense. Almost all questions that are considered poor are 1-liner junk.

Anyway I've to go. If you still do not understand the official guidelines on what constitutes a good question, here's a 1-line summary: The users on Math SE should not be treated worse than one's own teacher. Can you imagine dumping the kind of lousy questions we are talking about on your teacher's desk and telling him/her: Please solve urgent!

Widawensen

@user21820 I also have to go. Thank you for the explanations..

Widawensen

1:38 PM

@user21820 Why have I received the next -2 for the question math.stackexchange.com/questions/2496941/… at this time, after finishing our conversation , what's wrong with this question, is it retaliatory downvoting? it is preparing for the deletion?

user21820

1:55 PM

@Widawensen I don't do that kind of thing...

So I can't possibly know the answer to your question (why have you received downvotes)...

And I already told you:

yesterday, by user21820

@Widawensen Answers do not need to be downvoted in order to delete poor questions, but some users do downvote anyway.

Oh sorry it's a question of yours.

@Widawensen And I looked at that question; I consider it a good question. So I'm going to upvote it.

And posts cannot be deleted without being closed first, and right now I don't see any close-votes on your question.

Widawensen

@user21820 Thank you. It is important the question for me..

user21820

2:14 PM

@Widawensen: You're welcome. I hope you realize that I try to abide by and uphold site guidelines as consistently as I can. I hope you too will change your mind about our janitorial efforts when you see just how much junk there is. I'd rather keep one of your good questions than 100 lousy questions.

And now, I have to go again. See you next time.

Widawensen

2:29 PM

@user21820 See you next time..

Martin Sleziak

3:34 PM

user21820 I just wanted to say thank you both for taking time to post an answer to the meta question and also for explanation you posted here in chat.

(I suppose you will notice the post even without ping - you visit the site a lot. I did not want to add more notifications to your inbox; you probably get a bunch from comments under your answer on meta anyway.)

I meant to write: "visit the room" not "visit the site".

amWhy

This PSQ is no better than the other two PSQ's the asker has asked.

Professor Vector

@amWhy The OP seems to think so, too. :D

Martin Sleziak

I upvoted your answer - the fact that you took time to look in detail on each of the question. Still, I think that the meta question raises a valid point - that it might be reasonable to leave more time for potential improvements of a question which has been put on hold.

Although I see that this could mean some organizational difficulties. On the other hand, in many cases the questions would be deleted eventually by roomba anyway.

amWhy

3:55 PM

@MartinSleziak I'd be more apt to wait a bit more, but there are too many users, like Jack himself, who compulsively edit and change questions and too often change the question to an extent that it no longer remains the question, in spirit, of the question that was asked. There are also more users now who auto-pilot reopen votes, even when no change has been made by the OP ...

... and the number of senseless serial upvoting of PSQ's or inexplicable posts now far exceeds what those serial upvoters claim is the rate of supposed "serial downvoting." The people being bullied these days are the folks that are sincerely trying to help keep the quality of this site from submerging below sea level.

There are a number of reasons it has now become prudent, even wise, to delete some closed and wretched questions, quickly, is due in large part to the intervening users who think any, every question and every, any answer is holy, and shalt not be lost!!

Note, I don't think most closed questions need immediate deletion, and I do not engage in downvoting answers in order to get questions deleted: don't do, never have, like one normal human did a couple years back. Most of those who complain about downvotes are answerers who habitually answer crap (just rewards), and they do not champion askers; they champion their rep.

@MartinSleziak Think about this: What benefit comes to those who regularly and diligently volunteer most of their time here to the review queues, commenting, weeding out posts? No gain in rep, surely! What benefit comes to the most vocal of users complaining about downvotes, delete votes? The retention of their rep, which may have been lost due to the deletion of a wretched question they chose to answer?

Their desire to stymie reviewers and erect obstacles to legitimate reviews and actions, in order to keep the flood of PSQs/homework questions barring any effort whatsoever (mind you, usually very basic questions), so that the pool of crap remains big enough for them to fish for rep?

Sorry you chose to ignore me, @MartinSleziak. Cheers!

Xander Henderson

4:37 PM

Gotta farm that XP, yo!

user21820

4:48 PM

@MartinSleziak I have no problems with waiting until a few hours after the user has visited the site. But if a few hours has been given, there is really no good reason anyone here should owe anything more to the asker. After all, it's the asker's responsibility to ask a good question if he/she wants a good answer. If they visit the site but cannot be bothered to check on their question and fix them if the close-banner is facing them right there, then I honestly think this site doesn't deserve them.

Notice how nobody wants to address the uncomfortable analogy to dumping the lousy question on the teacher's desk. But that is the crux; it's an issue of responsibility. Some users set a very low standard of responsibility for the asker. Really too low. Possibly due to the flawed reputation system. Not surprising.

Anyway, thanks for bringing the Meta post to our attention. Disagreements aside, at least we three (you, me, amWhy) know that we ultimately want the best for this site, despite having different ideas of what is best. A pity there is only one site and we cannot test which method is best.

There are others too, but we three seem to argue a lot heh... =)

amWhy

5:11 PM

@user21820 I don't think you and I argue a lot, and I don't think I've argued much with @MartinSleziak; surely, we have disagreed at times, but I think our discussions are more or less reasonable.

Also, @user21820 thanks for you post on meta in response to Jack's question.

Professor Vector

6:04 PM

@amWhy "it has now become prudent, even wise" erm, sorry, I know it's off topic, but I thought "prudent" and "wise" were more or less synonyms. It's not my native language, naturally, so I may be completely wrong.

amWhy

@ProfessorVector =P More or less the same! ;)

Professor Vector

@amWhy Thanks for confirming it! Language is important, misunderstandings can ruin communication. And mathematics is language, and unfortunately, not one, but a dozen of (formal) languages. Or more.

amWhy

I say "more or less", though by wise, I tend to think of wisdom as an achieved state of being/mind... where as when I say prudent, I think "being practical, pragmatic," neither of which, (as I see it) is equivalent to "wise"... But you got the idea!

Professor Vector

6:21 PM

@amWhy Yes, that makes sense, "prudent" is definitely used in a more pragmatic sense, while "wise" includes some idealism, as I understand it.

amWhy

@ProfessorVector You said it better than I did! ;-)

amWhy

7:18 PM

@MartinSleziak if you want to talk past me, I can do the same and talk past you, but I haven't a clue as to why you've avoiding any exchange with me. You're willing to discuss almost any and everything with most others, but you won't discuss anything with me? Because I'm beneath you? Because I'm a woman? I don't get it. If you refuse to engage with me in conversation, please do not ping me anymore, nor address me, unless you're willing to address what I have said, as well as addressing

what you want to say.

Martin Sleziak

7:59 PM

@MartinSleziak That post was posted in 2013. Five years old, By definition, they are not new. The site has changed significantly since 2013, and likely for the worse. — amWhy 25 mins ago

All that I am saying is that there is slight difference between the on-hold and closed which is why I linked that post.

Quote from the linked post:

> Facilitated re-opening: previously we have relied on meta threads to reopen a closed question. Now, if the OP edits the post within five days of the closure, the question is automatically appended to the re-open votes queue.

> [On hold]: In conjunction with the previous point, for the first five days after closure, the question will display as [On hold] rather than [Closed]. Functionally it is the same as the previously [closed] questions (no answers can be added etc). After the five days are up, the text will show as [closed].

I respected your request not to ping you. Although I am not sure whether I really understand your message.

amWhy

Thanks for responding to my meta post. I also addressed you here, earlier. But you are free to pick and choose whom and what you decide to answer.

@MartinSleziak Perhaps my earlier question, which was posted when you were in this room, was missed before you left almost immediately after I posted. I ended up feeling a bit put-off. I imagine it was just a poor timing thing.

Martin Sleziak

Should I really respond here?

amWhy

@MartinSleziak You are more than welcome to respond!

Martin Sleziak

I do not think I treat you differently based on your gender - this is one of the things you asked?

Is there something else I should respond to? (This feels rather off-topic for this room.)

amWhy

You need not, The original comments of which I speak start

4 hours ago, by amWhy

@MartinSleziak I'd be more apt to wait a bit more, but there are too many users, like Jack himself, who compulsively edit and change questions and too often change the question to an extent that it no longer remains the question, in spirit, of the question that was asked. There are also more users now who auto-pilot reopen votes, even when no change has been made by the OP ...

Martin Sleziak

8:15 PM

Ok, I should leave. Have a nice day!

amWhy

@MartinSleziak And the comments here, after that block of comments were fueled, unfortunately, by my feeling "put-off" (disregarded by you). But as I said, I do understand, now, that it was likely a matter of timing, what I said, and your leaving the room. Oops, you're off again.

@MartinSleziak ????

Martin Sleziak

Really, I have some other stuff to do in real life.

My bad for looking at meta and in chat even though I do not have too much time to hang around.

@amWhy Since you have pinged me, is there something more which has to be dealt with now?

amWhy

And reading or considering my input isn't among them, though you found time for @user21820, and on meta? No, @Martin... don't let me stop you from doing "more important" work.

Martin Sleziak

Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

I apologize if I offended you.

Professor Vector

8:45 PM

@amWhy Hmmm. During the whole discussion between user21820 and Widawensen, you were shown as present in this room, but you didn't speak, you left it to user21820. I don't object, user21820 did a good job. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions why somebody doesn't speak up in such a discussion. The question of gender is entirely a moot point: people with a neutral nick don't want any assumptions, those using a male or female first name want those assumptions, but that doesn't mean that's true.

@amWhy Knowing about our attitude towards homework problems, some might play the "damsel in distress" to provoke wannabe "knights in shining armor" (yes, that's a quote ;-), for instance. "Professor Vector" is a character from the Harry Potter universe, a professor of arithmancy. Female. Well, the author is entitled to some poetic license, is she not? ;-)

amWhy

9:29 PM

I am "in" this room, typically, 27/7, meaning, the website is open, as are a number of tabs, almost 24/7, on my computer, which remains on and connected 24/7, @ProfessorVector. I was not actually present in the room, present with eyeballs on the screen, during the discussion between user 21820 and Widawensen. Indeed, I was yet asleep during that conversation.

@ProfessorVector ;-)

As far as someone not speaking up, I am speaking only about one user whom I addressed (not user21820, who's done great today), 9:55 my a.m., to comment on their comments. This had nothing to do with any previous discussion... And I am well aware that I am often dismissed, not spoken to, not acknowledged, by a number of users here. Even by a user with whom I agree on almost all closures/deletes.

In this case, Martin is and was certainly free to respond to me, or not, or free to tell me my comments are ridiculous. That doesn't mean I can't call them on it, correct?

Did

10:04 PM

@Widawensen Sorry but you did not address my query at all. Unless you describe clearly the criteria you are using and/or advocating to decide to close a given question or not, we cannot make any progress. On the other hand, the misconceptions your posts here reveal are rather daunting. To mention only a few: 1. Nobody is "acting in the shadows" here. 2. "Clearly stated question is not a poor question," Wrong. That a question is "clearly formulated" certainly does not suffice to make it ...

... worthwhile of receiving answers on the site. 3. "Different POVs" are not necessarily interesting, actually, why should we even consider POVs that explicitely contradict the rules of the site? 4. You mention "a sign of disregard for the work of others": others already explained, more patiently than I am able to, why this is completely offtopic. 5. "This is my personal view": sorry but again, why should I even consider opinions of individuals who cannot be bothered to even ...

2

... read the rules of the site but nevertheless try to curb these to their whims?

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amWhy

10:58 PM

Get this: after questioning diamond Jack about a recent answer of his to a no-effort-PSQ, he writes, in justification: "Subharmonicity is not widely taught and it is an effective technique for tackling similar cyclic-but-not-symmetric inequalities, so I believe there is something to share here, even if the OP did not make efforts."

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$Mathematics$ CURED