@gschenk Cities are no place for cars - last time I went to a city with the car I took a Brompton with me to move around in the city afterwards, even better than trams and trains to develop a sense of the place ;-)

Although in terms of teleportation, nothing beats the metro.

Helijetpack for the win

I very rarely use a car (even as passenger) but each time I do, I'm shocked how uncomfortable they are, even fancy ones... why would anyone prefer that over a rail-based vehicle 😄

In unrelated news: my dad uses way too high gears when cycling and way too low gears when driving lol

@Erlkoenig I'm the opposite. I hate trains with a passion (uncomfortable, crowded, slow, dirty, expensive) and love cars, as even the cheapest ones I have ever owned have been comfortable. I know this doesn't match with my green goals.

Sounds like you need to try a good train for once 🤪

In old cars it was obvious why they were so uncomfortable. But why are new cars, with all those extra features, so damn uncomfortable?

Perhaps to sell massage seats lol

Safety constraints and aerodynamics?

Thick C pillar, roof sloping down. Oh and the seat belt is always forcing down one shoulder, that leads to a skewed positure.

Probably, trains just have more space to work with, while planes are also pretty cramped

@gschenk if a seat belt is forcing a shoulder down, it is not the right seat for you. Are you really tall?

@Erlkoenig that's a thing in cars? Only seen them in malls.

@Erlkoenig I find planes even more cramped than trains - their seats actively hurt me

@RoryAlsop not particularly, slightly over average for a man at 190cm.

@Erlkoenig I have been on trains in various European countries, not just the UK (which you would expect to be terrible)

@RoryAlsop they have much more conformable seats though.

@gschenk for me they are waaaay less comfortable. The only time I have ever been vaguely comfortable was the time I wangled a business class seat to Hong Kong

@gschenk Yes absolutely, it's a big luxury feature in modern cars

still not as comfortable as the recaro seats in my old car

@RoryAlsop Yes absolutely, trains even have tables 😄

@gschenk My experience is that the "driver's cars" are the least comfortable. And most people consider a sporty car a must, even if it's only to be stuck in traffic jams.

@RoryAlsop Tried a German ICE?

Plane seats are flat and have the cushion on a flat surface.

@Erlkoenig yep. I lived in Germany for a while. So much better than British trains, but still nowhere near any of my cheap "driver's cars"

Whereas car seats form a through to keep you in place in sideways crashes.

What's a "driver's car" 👀?

@Rеnаud I'm not a fan of any luxury cars - aside from my current car, every car I have owned has been a racer or rally type of car

@Erlkoenig my last car was a 500bhp Litchfield Forester. Definitely a driver's car. No luxuries in it at all

That doesn't allow thighs to move. A lot of them are also way too soft for comfort. I think that causes so much pain deep in thighs.

@RoryAlsop When I wrote "driver's car" was in the sense "meant for drivers" (ie sporty cars), not the luxury limo's with a driver

@RoryAlsop IMO the main discomfort in cars comes from the road, shaking, and noise. Particularly in the rear seats. Trains are just superior in this regard

@Rеnаud absolutely. Driver's cars are sporty

@Erlkoenig for some. I just feel the exact opposite. For me the main discomfort in trains is from the noise, crowding, shaking, uncomfortable seats

I drove an actual formula race car and after 10min everything hurts and you're DONE 🤣

@Erlkoenig Ahh - I do race formula 3000, le mans cars, radicals, you name it on a regular basis. the F3000 does hurt after only a few laps, I'll give you that, but it's mostly the neck and shoulders

At least you can move around in train seats as you're not strapped in...

But I love my bikes and motorbikes which are definitely the noisiest form of travel I own

So it must be the type of noise which annoys me

Noise levels are like: bicycle < tram < train < plane < bus < car

A bit point less to categorize by vehicle type, it depends on the vehicle itself

Those drivers cars at least don't have uncomfortable rear passenger seats.

But they do have very stiff suspension...

Plane are much noisier inside than (regular) cars out buses.

According to the checks I have done with a decibel meter, because being a musician I check my ears regularly, I get the loudest sustained noise on bikes and motorbikes (wind noise), trains and underground. By a mile. None of my cars prior to my current one had any sound deadening, as it was unneeded weight, and they were quieter than trains.

@Erlkoenig Stiff suspension is good, if it is the right kind of stiff for the road you are on

@RoryAlsop Good for handling, bad for comfort

And a 4 or 5 point harness with a good seat is sooooo comfortable for hours at speed

(noise depends also on the road surface for cars/buses)

@Erlkoenig and yet for me a 5 hour drive still leaves me much less sore than a 1 hour flight or a 2 hour train journey

My most unpleasant ride was in a Lada Niva from the 80s. Had to leave the windows open to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning,

@gschenk And often least space. There's more space in the backseat of a Golf than a BMW 3-series for example.

@gschenk that sounds about right

@Rеnаud And it's more fun to drive :-)

On another topic: saw that Shimano recently released the drop version of CUES. New brifters and cranks.

@Rеnаud thought those drivers cars don't have back seats. Gotta get ripped out for the four point belts, roll cages etc.

I wrote "sporty cars" not sport cars.

@RoryAlsop Even if it's tightened to the required force, I.e. "the 2 biggest guys on the racing team pull the harness straps with their full strength to tighten them"?

@Erlkoenig yep - you need the seat to be right for you, but it is comfortable

Ah, so a M3 counts?

like I say, the pain in a race comes from shoulders and neck

I personally prefer the cars that car journalists qualify as "boring".

@RoryAlsop Even if it's a CF seat with zero cushioning?

@gschenk Even a regular 3-series, "driving experience" is a key marketing message.

@Rеnаud ahhh, my current car. The ultimately boring Kia Optima 3

Hehe, hated to ride in my uncle's. Cause my uncle used to be hobby rallye driver. Cannot imagine how much motion sickness he could pack even in a 1km drive in town.

(I also rode with the 2 biggest team mechanics in the rear seat of some cramped coupé for 500km. That was also "an experience")

@Rеnаud Racing a BMW M4 Sport on track is one of the least "driving" driving experience I have ever had. They are sooo heavy and your driving is too far removed from the track.

@Erlkoenig owww

I've recently been in an M3 on the front pax seat. Seat really grips your sides to hold you in. It was just 15 min. But on a long drive this must hurt a lot, being so immobilised.

@gschenk A good recaro grips you, but comfortably :-)

honest

@RoryAlsop Sure, but I'm speaking about highway cruising ;-) I'll take a Passat over any 3-series (or equivalent) for that.

@Rеnаud me too

Passat is miles better for that

Really good engineering - the whole car is more comfortable to drive than any 3 series

@RoryAlsop do you get more left movement as driver? Or is pedal actuation insignificant?

@gschenk depends on the car. In Ferraris there is a lot of twisting, as the pedals are arranged stupidly. In Formula cars you have to push the pedals so hard you need the straps to hold you still. In Subarus (which I really like) the pedals are aligned really straight for me

@RoryAlsop And in the recent ones, you get more room on the rear seat than on the front ones.

@Rеnаud I don't like my Kia as a driver's car, but as a sensible family car, it's amazing - 50mpg, I can fit 4 passengers all over 6ft (my son is 6ft5), huge luggage space. I got my daughter a BMW M3, and there is no room for anything in it

@RoryAlsop Yeah we didn't do that, too heavy 😄

I'm asking, cause it might be less uncomfortable for the driver than the passenger. The M3's seats just didn't allow me to move. That's ok for 15 min but not moving your legs and pressure starts to hurt supremely after a while.

@RoryAlsop about 20 years ago. One of my mates bought an old Impreza. Didn't bother about the paint. Surprising how much fun one can have on a few hundred meters of lose gravel. And how fast 40km/h can feel. That was quite pleasant riding.

@Erlkoenig did you choose only the lightest member in your team as driver? Like jokeys in horse racing?

I'm clearly the odd one out here.... I enjoy driving my car.

@Criggie I'm in with you! I think I just am more comfortable in vehicles I control, rather than being a passenger.

Even in planes, I am comfy as anything when I get to be in the front seat piloting the thing

When you're riding in a car, day as pax of your daughter, do you still prefer it's comfort the other modes of transport by such a large margin?

I'm finding this non-driving thing to be moderately annoying most of the time, but absolutely devastating when there's a crisis on (dog to vet urgently) and applying for jobs .

Oh, and clearly the great discomfort in cars is probably an outlier. The things sell after all.

@RoryAlsop very few people would say that.

Me being in the front seat of a plane would be cause for great discomfort for anyone on it. Albeit, thanks to gravity, only for a very brief time.

@gschenk I only ride as her passenger if I have been at the pub and require a lift home, so a) many things become comfy at that point, and b) it's a decision of last resort. If I go to further away pubs I just don't drink, as petrol wins over beer in most cases for me

@gschenk I would recommend lessons - it's one of the most wonderful feelings. Especially in a glider, with no engine at all :-)

(I'm biased - my father was a fighter pilot, kid brother was a helicopter pilot, now an airline pilot, my kids' godmother is an airline pilot, they fly gliders, their uncle is a fighter pilot, and I fly gliders and cessnas.)

@gschenk Yes obviously 😉 coincidentally, the lightest people were also the best drivers. Destiny probably.

@Criggie I like as well, in light traffic between cities ;-)

I also like driving up and across rivers when others can't :)

@Erlkoenig when we used to do a lot a kart marathons (4hr or 24hr races) we found that those of us with a slightly more "sturdy" build did rather better than expected when it was wet. And as these were mostly in Scotland, wet was the order of the day. We didn't get off the line so fast, but maintained grip through corners rather well.

However, on my road bike, down steep hills, I am now the most careful boring cyclist ever - as I'm convinced my skinny tyres will slip

Too many years of having really decent grip, and too many years in general

I love hill cycling but I'm disappointed I'm now a boring cyclist

@RoryAlsop That doesn't mean anything: my mother was professional pilot (aerial photography at the end of her career), my father was one of her students, that's how they met (he was training to become airline pilot). He proposed on a sailboat. I ended up with transport sickness.

@Rеnаud lol, oh no!

@Rеnаud my mother does get terrible travel sickness. Unsure why she married a Navy pilot

I also like driving up and across rivers when others can't :)

@RoryAlsop Didn't you use wet tyres?

@Erlkoenig on karts - nope. Completely slick. Absolutely hilarious

One race we may have had intermediates. Or maybe just slightly scored slicks. Can't remember

On formula student you can switch to wet tyres. There's also one discipline specifically for competition with wet cornering. Can't remember that one would choose heavy drivers for that

@RoryAlsop didn't know go-carts also go on outside tracks. I think its all indoors here. (Didn't much research though, since I wouldn't be allowed to drive them anyway).

@Erlkoenig In almost every racing discipline, it just makes sense to have lighter drivers, even in the major formulas where you add weight to the lighter drivers, because you can add it in very sensible places

@gschenk Faster karts on outdoor tracks (generally much longer tracks, and much higher speeds) are actually much less painful. The forces are less impact

@gschenk Hm, you don't need a license for casual go-cart driving (just for racing)

old company considered cart as team event but didn't because of driving license requirements.

Hmm? Even kids can do go-cart

IIRC Belgium and Austria have less restrictions and therefore faster go-carts

oh, can they.

Just googled for a track. looks fun, with so many levels. interesting 3d structure.

Must be weird to drive something with a wheel and foot pedals (!). Not with a stick, controller, or arrow keys.

Hihi, it's pretty intuitive.

@Erlkoenig I tried oncekarting as team building event, I stopped because I got sick - and I was driving.

I went a bit more into the detail for the drop bar CUES, somehow "bad" that the 2x are officially limited to 2x10 (so 46/32 or 50/34 front and 11/39 rear), but they didn't allow the 2x11 (so with 11/45), that would have been fantastic on gravel bikes. But that may have put too much internal competition with GRX

@gschenk here you don't need a licence at that level. Obviously race licence for leagues etc

@Rеnаud those cranks are surprisingly inexpensive. A bit weighty 1.1 kg compared to 0.8 kg for a GRX 600. Still 300 g might not matter to many at 1/3 the costs.

It's compatible with regular chains? Linkglide just a marketing blurb for that drivetrain, or some fundamental incompatibility.

1.1kg for a crankset?!

there are whole framesets which weigh less!

@gschenk Standard 11-speed chains and Linkglide are interchangeable.

I'm personally running Linkglide chains on my GRX (to see if more durable).

@gschenk 1.1kg is the same as the MT210 that I have on the fun bike.

On durability, haven't found a lot of online review to check if durability claims are verified. I found one video that said that it's verified, though, but hard to say if it's trustworthy.

@Michael Just for your info, the MT210 of the fun bike costs about 30€ ;-) Finding something lighter is part of my interest in LinkGlide, because I really like this 46/30 front, 11/42 rear combination, but finding chainring that large on MTB BB shells is very hard.

(unfortunately, the CUES shifters don't have a feature I really like about the XT ones - even in the U8000-series)

@gschenk "a bit weighty" you say

I suppose it's relatively cheap, but at some point the absolute prices get low enough that the grams saved per extra dollar spent gets quite large

of course, you'd have to care at all for that to be a consideration