What you think of this:

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@gschenk What's the purpose? My main issue with cyclo-cross bikes is they have lost their appeal as all-round drop bar bikes, and that the UCI limit of 33mm is currently becoming road territory rather than off-road (and I prefer gravel gearing as well).

@gschenk The point that is limiting for me with cyclocross for me is more tire clearance than geometry (not sure that many brands are doing now cyclocross bikes that go much further than 35mm). Never studied the geometry of cyclocross bikes, but I would think that to enjoy modern tires on a second-hand bike, cyclocross bikes may have a benefit over old road bikes.

GRX 600 46/30 crank is EUR 70.

I think it fits something like 38 gravel tyres. But i don't see much need for more than 35 for a light rider.

I've not found 35 is the sweet spot for me, at 90 kg too. It's a bit more sketchy on very coarse or lose gravel, but most here is 'Gucci gravel'. I didn't like very squishy large tyres when descending. (I always route descends to good roads. No point in wasting all that wonderful potential energy.)

@Rеnаud yes, old road bikes are a no go for me. I'd never ride anything narrower than a 28. Better something like a 32 road tyre.

Very happy with my 40mm on the gravel (semi slick) on my side. I ride them at 3 bars on road club rides, and see no downside (but I'm not in the fastest groups) - and a big upside: limited impact of bad surfaces. And when I want to ride on (dry) gravel, I drop to 2.1/2.3 bars.

@gschenk But aren't gravel bikes much better at going straight over rough terrain than CX bikes? Even a comfortable "allround" gravel bike which is very different from a MTB handles way more stable than a CX bike

as long as it’s more stable than the citybikes here

so twitchy

my CX is quite stable, never had the feeling that it’s overly sensitive to inputs or rough ground or wind

I only rode a CX bike once and found it super twitchy. It surely maneuvers very well (great for racing and traffic) but it takes a lot of attention to go over gravel. Very different to my allround-gravelbike that basically rides on its own 😁

Which totally makes sense considering the steering geometry and seating position

@Michael If your general reference is road bikes, that may not strike you as well. Coming from flat bar bikes (the lazy bike had a head tube angle of 67°), I found the Diverge twitchy — the Diverge being among the stable gravel bikes.

@Erlkoenig bike has to fit, before handling becomes a concern.

There are few gravel bikes that aren't way too long, but then they're close in geometry to CX bikes. Sometimes steering is more slack, but that doesn't work with long stems. Compare Canyon's Inflite new CX geometry.

@gschenk Even the ones with CX geometry would get have tire clearance than typical CX bikes and/or more mounting points, no?

When you look at actual geometry of gravel bikes with shorter reach, they aren't all that different from CX bikes.

@Rеnаud yes, that's the real step from CX to gravel. New CX bikes are also purely racing. No bottle cages, carbon, hard to find.

A non-racing CX bike is a gravel bike 🤓

a gravel bike is just a trekking bike with curly handlebars :p

My Cinelli Zydeco (gravel) maps almost exactly on the geometry of an old Merckx CX (manufactured by cinelli). Buy it easily clears 40 mm tyres and has plenty of bolt ons.

@Michael Almost, but without suspension and with stable steering

when I was young trekking bikes had no suspension

Not even suspended saddles?

@Erlkoenig My gravel bike has a suspension, so that's not always true :-p

I'm riding it with a 120 mm stem. So a modern gravel bike with a 90 mm would be a perfect fit for me.

@Erlkoenig as much padding as a gravel saddle today.

@gschenk I'd be curious to know in my case if I would have bought the same size if I went to the bike fitter before buying the bike.

But narrow, harsh tyres. 32 mm marathons at 6 or 7 bar.

The fitter moved the saddle by 5mm front and the stem went from 100mm to 70mm

I had a way too short flat bar bike before, and went the other extreme with my first drop bar bike.

@Rеnаud do you feel a difference?

In stability not so much, comfort and control yes.

(note that the Diverge is an "old school" gravel bike, not as long as the more recent ones)

@Michael by the way, a cool feature of trekking bikes is the ability to carry a laptop without backpack.

@Rеnаud the cyclocross can do that as well

maybe I should just put the power meter crankset on the cyclocross and do the trip with the CX

My CX feels twitchy to me, but I also don't have a pure road bike to compare it to.

For city riding the trekking bike is actually better because the direct steering makes it easier to ride those 90° corners on bike paths and thread between cars. The gravel bike with more stable steering makes this more difficult but at least the tyres allow very deep lean angles for taking tight corners at speed. But on gravel or fast descents the trekking bike is useless

these rental city bikes here in Linz are extremely twitchy linza.at/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Radverleih-1000.jpg I actually struggle to check over my shoulder and give hand signals and still continue in a straight line

We have one hybrid or flat-bar gravel bike with wide bars. I find it quite difficult to ride it one-handed regardless of its good stability.

I grew up on city bikes so stable steering took getting used to for me 😁

nice, the great grandchild of my Focus Mares :)

@gschenk the real question is if you’ll get an honest answer

It even has my favourite brakes.

It doesn't look like it was hanging around as decoration in a living room all those years.

are they not terrible?

I once tried a friend’s bike with them and they didn’t brake, they barely decelerated you

hanger is bolted to the fork crown, and not some insert at the headset, makes it also squeal much less.

I can endo with the pair i have on my single speed. That's with koolstop salmon on clean and dry rims though.

@gschenk Depends, a Canyon Grail would have been almost spot on (they ship with 70mm stems), and the reach is only 10mm more than the Diverge.

wow, this 56 Focus Mares is exactly as long as a S Giant Revolt, and a 54 Stevens Vapor. Only difference is seat tube length.

@Rеnаud the trick with Canyon is to go about one or better two sizes smaller than what they suggest.

@gschenk What I mean is that if I compare what Canyon proposes based on the fitter's measurements, the geometry of the suggested size is much closer to the fitter's suggestion (10mm too long reach). But that's not true for the Grizl, where I should have taken one size down.

The configurator that proposes the closest suggestion to the fitter recommendation is Origine's, for what it's worth - 3mm too short reach, 7mm too high stack (they only sell in BE, NL, UK, CH and FR, so it may not interest a lot of people here).

Did the fitter change your bar and seat height?

I found, to my great suprise, that raising my bars 2 cm caused more shoulder pain and quite a lot of back pain. (I did it when I chucked wth a big backpack).

Still looking for inexpensive way to cover knees. Since 3/4 shorts are rare, I thought about seamless running tights over or under regular summer bibs.

I have a pair with seams in all the wrong places that are chafing from the first km.

But again, there are next to no 3/4 tights for men and zero without seams. (A single seam along the median would be fine).

Is everyone just riding with those annoying knee warmers?

I wear leggings, like pantyhose but open at the bottom. Very mild seems on the buttocks but no others.

It's not very cold yet, I'd like to sink heat at my calves and thighs. So I can wear long sleeves and a gilet as a top. But I've been told about nasty knee injuries exacerbated by cold.

I've been riding with leg warmers, but they are so hot I could only bear them at 0 C (dry).

On a hot day I roll up the trouser cuff to just below my knees. I don't like seeing my knees - too much scarring.

@gschenk decathlon.be/nl/p/mtb-broek-3-4-race-zwart-oker/_/… ?