The Velodrome

Andy P

08:04

Yes and no.
The average hobby rider will usually see benefits from riding more consistently and increasing training load. Whether that increased load comes from more volume or more intensity probably doesnt matter too much when riding a very low volume.

For a low volume rider, adding some high intensity is likely to give a nice fitness boost even if the interval durations dont make sense.

However as you progress it's probably worth paying more attention to the type of interval being performed. Working anaerobic capacity is great for CX races and criteriums, but done too much actually wo…

Erlkoenig

08:22

@AndyP Okay thanks... why are we doing math without getting paid for it :D

So I wouldn't race, but having fitness suitable for CX-style riding sounds sensible if you don't have time for crazy long rides anyways

Super close pass today. It's crazy how often you almost get killed on a ridiculously short commute o.O

gschenk

09:29

I've read that de Poel and Aert dominated CX so utterly because their trainers (dad's) did increase aerobic capacity very early on and delayed anaerobic fitness drills. The effect was that they could ride large parts of the race, at leaders speeds without exerting themselves too much. While competition, trained the old way, was always close to FTP.

For CX the way is also long gruesome cold rides in the winter.

Oh, mind that change of training must have happened at a very young age for these two riders. They probably accepted not winning as many races as they could. Takes a lot of confidence and foresight.

Andy P

@gschenk yep, unless you are doing short events on the track aerobic capacity is king for most endurance sports.
Look at runners/rowers/cyclists and at the elite level you'll consistently see a very high volume of z1/z2 training.

gschenk

@Erlkoenig one of my friends was run over three years ago just where you live. Witnesses had to run after the lorry and bang at the door to make the driver notice he's just driven over a bike. Meanwhile my friend was holding on to something in the middle. She's been dragged over the tarmac for half a block. Fortunately only major bruises and light concussion from the initial impact and large abrasions from being dragged.

Andy P

Intervals are the icing on the cake so to speak.
Cakes made only of icing are not good

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Wow, that's horrible.

It's crazy how dangerous small streets in residential areas are

gschenk

09:49

It wasn't even a small one. Been somewhere on Brienner Str or so.

Also not a visibility thing, She was not alone there, somewhere in the middle of those long stretched out lines of people riding to work in the summer.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Was that before the big bike lane was installed?

gschenk

It was in the year before the pandemic.

Erlkoenig

didn't live in munich back then :P

gschenk

big bike lanes sounds like a very 2020 thing.

I don't remember Brienner before though.

Erlkoenig

The bike lane is consistently blocked by huge trucks, though

gschenk

09:56

I always avoided cycling in Maxvorstadt, cause the area around the train station was too much of an obstacle (especially with kids) and it is generally unpleasant to cycle there.

Erlkoenig

It would be okay if drivers weren't in full "MGIF" mode all the time

gschenk

@Erlkoenig all the large bike lanes on streets are now extra parking. I hoped the increased fees would change that a little. Before drivers just shrugged off paying a few EUR.

Erlkoenig

Almost every day some driver does a crazy overtaking maneuver over tram tracks and road stripes (i.e. super illegal).

@gschenk Fees don't matter if it isn't enforced anyways

At least the city is now "testing" barriers for protected bike lanes (e.g. one short strip on the Brienner Str). Because we can't just buy ones that are known to work. Or have worked on the Autobahn for decades.

gschenk

The worst street in Munich is Schwanthaler. Now it's a death trap. Nice bike lanes on the western side lead timid riders to go there. Just to find it blocked and having to join flowing traffic of cars with very very angry drivers.

Erlkoenig

Yeaah made the mistake to ride there twice, it's a near-death-experience

What's worst, driver's anger is caused by traffic (i.e. other drivers), but it endangers cyclists

gschenk

10:01

@Erlkoenig Autobahn doesn't have fire brigades with large engines move through dense traffic.

Erlkoenig

Autobahn lane separators are very flexible and survive driving over them

gschenk

Ah, I thought you were talking about Jersey barriers.

Erlkoenig

Hmm no, no idea how they are called: Plastic flat "poles" with flexible mount, have been used forever on the autobahn, survive driving over them

gschenk

@Erlkoenig The city isn't that bad with tickets. They were just so inconsequential. Surprisingly they didn't cover the cities expenses. There are too many lawyers who obstruct payment and increase the city's legal fees. Eating up all the revenue collected from parking tickets.

I hope that changes with higher fees.

What is more, the city doesn't tow unless there is immediate danger (that is only proven by an accident already happened). Because of legal blow back.

Erlkoenig

It's also a huge hassle to report illegally parked cars. Lots of cars park in the bike lane but police usually ignore them.

gschenk

10:10

It's because of towing some lawyer's cars who went to court and won quite large damages. One of the parking inspectors told me, at least in my area, about 10% of the worst parking offenders are lawyers who know they can get away with it.

@Erlkoenig the police don't care, cause the city does ticketing, and gets the revenue.

I've even heard an argument where police wanted the delivery driver to park on the cycling path to keep the street free.

Erlkoenig

Wow, that's bad. Sometimes i envy the US where you can open a private towing business...

gschenk

The new traffic code has demerit points for some forms of parking offences. That might have an effect on enforcement.

Erlkoenig

Uh, let's hope.

2

When visiting a swimming lake on a nice weekend, lots of cars were parked everywhere. Many were parked on a private field. Apparently the farmer called a towing truck and had them all removed. People were cheering. It was a glorious sight.

gschenk

They should have a photo of it printed on a large sign and put it there. So he doesn't have to do it every weekend.

Feringasee?

Erlkoenig

Feldmochinger See :) IIRC there were even signs but drivers don't care

I love how people insist on driving to leisure locations, on weekends, on congested roads, to places that have public transit stops and even bike paths

gschenk

10:24

@Sam i found those ferrules for 80p at the web shop i'm ordering something else anyway. Good find Sam.

Michael

14:07

my older sister is noticing that the riders on “basic endurance training camp” she met in Spain are training everything except endurance :D

they spend ⅔ of a 6h long team ride in the slipstream of their teammates (-> too easy intensity) and the ascents up hills or small mountains are ridden at way too high of an intensity for aerobic systems

soooo, if somebody tells you they did a lot of basic endurance (aerobic) training … don’t necessarily believe them :D

the sister is amazed that this kind of chaotic training still seems to work

Erlkoenig

"Chaotic training" sounds like my kind of training plan

Michael

@Erlkoenig same here :D But it mostly gets messed up by injuries and accidental overtraining

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Already registered? munich-super-cross.de/gravelrides/anmeldung-gravelride

gschenk

No, I've neither skill nor the form to make even one round of the circuit. Last race I've seen a few seconds after the start it went down a 2% grass/mud slope. There's no way I'd be foolish enough to ride that.

Erlkoenig

Not the actual supercross, just the gravel ride, which is pretty easy

Michael

14:22

@gschenk On some cyclocross courses the amateurs race first and it’s much easier since the mud is less deep

gschenk

oh, i thought the 'Jedermann' CX

Michael

depends a lot on weather too

and the amateurs are sometimes only 45 minutes while the pros do a full hour

Erlkoenig

I wouldn't dream of doing the CX course ;-)

gschenk

@Michael mud or grass. There's no way I'm riding down such a drop on anything but tarmac!

Erlkoenig

(also due to lack of CX bike)

gschenk

14:25

I'd be extremely frightened to ride 20 permille slopes on tarmac. From the top it looks like going over a cliff. And it's extremely difficult to stop and get off the bike on anything that steep.

Erlkoenig

My first ever gravel ride was a guided tour including the slopes of the Fröttmanninger Berg. Muddy grass, pretty steep. Baptism by fire

gschenk

I know, I've tried it to see if its possible.

Michael

I only did one CX race in my life, it was fun

I think life changing injuries are rare because speeds are low

unlike road races

gschenk

But on grass there's no way to brake. If anything goes wrong, I'd tumble down the whole 10 m.

Erlkoenig

At least you get a soft landing ;-)

gschenk

14:27

I don't care about my landing. I care about hitting someone else on the way down.

Michael

everyone is sliding around anyways :D

the biggest danger is from other bikes and the barriers

gschenk

How could I live with myself if I caused someone else harm by becoming a tripping hazard.

Michael

:D

gschenk

Someone as fat, unsporty, and clumsy as I am has to stay away from tight groups.

That's not about the gravel riding.

Erlkoenig

The gravel ride last time was great fun, can recommend

gschenk

14:31

But that is too much for me this season. I've been sick most of the time and in terrible form.

Michael

@gschenk you can change at least the first two attributes :p

gschenk

I'll remember it for next year though.

Erlkoenig

There are slow groups, and it's 40km / 56km ...

gschenk

@Michael new job, no home-office, 15 km upriver from here. Office with shower. That'd be the way to get less fat.

@Erlkoenig at the moment I'll be happy if I'm well enough to ride at all in a week.

Erlkoenig

Hmm okay

gschenk

14:36

Just ordered expensive new tyres for my wife. I hope that'll increase our tempo. Now I'd only have to slowly persuade her to draft. And not fall behind every other kilometer to keep 100 m distance without coming closer, matching speed regardless how slow we get waiting for her.

Erlkoenig

oooh I know that feeling all to well

gschenk

It's so frustrating on some rides. We're oscillating speed between 25 and 15 all the time. Then, another day she's not dropping and we make good progress because of steady riding.

Michael

yes it’s difficult

I also lose the girlfriend around tight corners or on descents all the time

Erlkoenig

So many panicked calls "WHERE ARE YOU???" "just straight ahead, we are literally 100m apart and on opposite sides of that odd tree"

"Just follow the line on the nav app" "I don't know how"

Michael

lol

when it’s just straight road or uphill section it works fine, especially when I’m riding with the power meter and can pace us

Andy P

14:44

@Michael I don't think the too easy bit is necessarily bad when doing 6h rides day after day. In fact it may be essential to maintain very high volume. With a bit of strava stalking you can routinely see elite men 'noodling' round at 200-220 which is probably right on their z1/z2 border (55%) even when they are solo riding rather than group riding.

Michael

@AndyP but are those hours spent in super low intensity really achieving anything?

Erlkoenig

"Just follow that winding road. Stay on the ROAD." "I don't know where to go, there is a crossing" "There is no crossing?!?!" ... the "crossing" was a narrow gravel path to the side

"junk miles"...

Michael

junk megameters

Erlkoenig

When I ride with my parents they complain that I'm too fast even when I'm almost only freewheeling. Then one day they did a ride with friends - and later complained that those friends where sooo slow. 70yo mom even turned off the e-bike and pedalled manually even though the bike is super heavy, as they were so slow :D

Michael

the sister is sad and surprised that nobody seems to be doing small studies on training methodology. When a trainer is supervising a team of 40 riders it should be easy to have 20 of them do X and 20 of them do Y and then compare the outcome

Andy P

14:53

Probably very good for developing fat oxidation and sparing glycogen yes.
I spent 1 season (2017 i think) riding much higher volume, but a lot of it in z1.
Had basically no effect on my FTP, but I could ride 160km and still be fresh enough to go hard at the end. Was also much less reliant on timing/quantity of carbs.

Fat oxidation plays a huge role for a road pro in particular, because not only does it factor into a high FTP, the crucial parts of races where they need to make big efforts are often 4+hrs into the race

Yes and no.
A) the athlete would actually have to agree to the study which might be a risk for their season results and hence contract negotiations
B) you wouldn't want your teams GC contender on the same training plan as the sprinter

@Erlkoenig I know that feeling well. I once did a coffee ride with a social/beginner group. Ended up 1 minute ahead free wheeling on a cx bike with marathons. To this day i still have no idea how that is even possible.

Michael

you guys need power meters

“I’ll try to stay at 140W, tell me if it’s too easy for you”

Andy P

lol, if i did 140W they would be 25mins behind after 30mins of riding :P

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Did they wear parachute-clothes?

Andy P

@Erlkoenig who needs parachute clothes when you have the aerodynamic profile of a parachute anyway ;-)

@Michael You can do that exact same method with an HRM. You basically just need to find out what speed they find is sustainable and then ride that heart rate/power on the flat. You need to reduce on hills because they are ALWAYS heavier

Erlkoenig

Haha right, there are not so many overweight people in continental Europe, but they're still slow AF

Michael

15:02

@AndyP HRM responds quite slowly

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Well... When I see the bike my HR automatically goes to 150 and it's hard to force myself to go lower :P Riding at <140 is soo boooring

Oddest thing, when going at "family speed", "technical" spots get more difficult as you're not blasting through anymore but have to creep over every pebble individualy

Andy P

@Erlkoenig urgh, family speed off road is even worse. just makes everything more bumpy/uncomfortable/difficult. you no longer glide over the surface, but fall into every tiny bump

Erlkoenig

yeah, and lack of inertia is bad for bike handling stability

gschenk

@AndyP strangely, my wife really enjoyed some easy trails. Riding faster off-road than on smooth gravel. But it triggered an hour of complaints and morose behviour by the lad. "Why did we have to ride through the mud"

Andy P

haha, mud is awesome! makes you feel young again.
Until you fall in it at least :D

gschenk

15:09

PS he has a fantastic gravel bike an really likes watching CX

Erlkoenig

Mud makes you wet, cold and miserable :|

gschenk

I've been looking for decent mud all over the place when my bike was new. Couldn't find it. It's rare in the summer near Munich.

@Erlkoenig only when you are going slow

Erlkoenig

There's plenty of mud in winter...

gschenk

speaking of mud

will you see some of the CX races on 14. and 15.

Erlkoenig

I think I'll take a look yes

humn

15:19

Please don't delete me. I know everything bicycle oriented. Not sprint, that's a speciality.

Andy P

Come to Scotland, you can nearly always find mud.
Except right now, its been raining for a month so the mud is under 15cm of water :D

humn

But i know what it takes to climb height and to descend without freezing kneecaps.

@AndyP . i find frozen sludge. Good enough.

Have you ever tried to ride on fresh snow? Pretty near impossible.

But always worth a try.

(Spoken as someone who walks barefoot on snow)

(freak of nature)

Michael

@humn fresh snow is perfectly fine

as long as it’s not very deep

@humn I used to do that too, but now I’m too old for this shit

humn

@Michael , right about that and the other detail.

@Michael , guess my age. pressing 70.

Michael

risking frost bite like that is just silly and cold feet can’t be good for running/walking mechanics

DavidW

15:34

@gschenk There's one park path near here (close enough for riding a loop out of home) that the borough cheaped out on and just paved without properly grading. It kicks up above 20% near the top, steep enough I have difficulty keeping my front wheel down. I've never had the nerve to ride down it. Looking at it from the top it's like there's a bit of a lip and the path simply disappears.

Michael

these days I’m even kind of scared when I come back from a 3 hour bike ride and my feet are completely white and numb

DavidW

@Michael Y'know that's not good, right?

Erlkoenig

@Michael Not healthy either, if the feet are cold the entire body will get cold, which is bad for the immune system and you can easily catch a cold (or worse)

Michael

@Erlkoenig the trick is to stay away from people

and somehow it just happens after an hour or so, even if I’m warm

Erlkoenig

@Michael Germs are everywhere...

gschenk

15:46

@DavidW i got inclines wrong by one order of magnitude. 2% -> 20%

Michael

@Erlkoenig Viruses need a host

Erlkoenig

depends on the type of virus, IIRC many can survive without a host, just not procreate

DavidW

@gschenk I figured that, which is why I was supporting your point with another example in the same range.

gschenk

@DavidW the entrance to underground parking is that steep. 2 out of 3 times I don't have the nerve to ride it down.

Erlkoenig

Coronaviruses and e.g. HIV can't, though

Michael

15:48

rhinoviruses can’t either

they die after a few hours on most surfaces, days at the most

Erlkoenig

So if you touch a traffic light beg button that someone touched hours before...

gschenk

@Erlkoenig brief exposure to cold seems quite healthy for venes and capilary system. There's quite a lot of support that it's about the only working prevention for varicoses.

Erlkoenig

Brief, yes, if your core temperature is high. But if you are cold for hours on a ride and core temp drops...

Michael

@Erlkoenig that’s why you don’t touch them with your hands (and if you have to, don’t touch your face or mouthpiece of your bottle afterwards)

gschenk

Besides the risk of slipping, there's likely no disadvantage whatsoever of walking through snow, provided you don't do it long enough.

Erlkoenig

15:51

@Michael Yes, but not 100% protection. Rhinoviruses always seem to find a way...

gschenk

Rhinoviruses didn't find a way the last two years. That's the main reason I'm so miserable this winter.

2

Michael

exactly, the few half hearted pandemic measures where enough to prevent most colds

Erlkoenig

I still got colds despite social distancing and not catching Covid

Michael

which kind of shows how unnecessary the whole suffering right now is

gschenk

half hearted isn't the expression I'd use.

Some, like masks in public tranist were easy enough.

Michael

15:54

@gschenk except for the early days and during the worst waves they were very soft and half hearted measures

gschenk

Others, like contact restrictions have a high cost that's only warranted if there is grave danger due to a pandemic.

Michael

I think night clubs were the only thing which were closed for almost the full 2 years here in Austria

Erlkoenig

If we had done strong measures quickly(!) for a short period of time (2-3 weeks) we would have been spared a lot

gschenk

We had several months of home-schooling. Also months of interrupted learning at school due to quarantine. Juveniles had very limited social interaction, no parties, no clubs, no pubs.

We're getting the consequences now, hitting a completely defunct medical system when it comes to psychological care.

Every measure comes with a price.

I did wear masks when I went out when i was sick before the pandemic. The Japanese way. I'll continue so. But anything that goes further is not worth it to delay other infections. In particular, since avoidance is only pushing it until it gets even worse.

@Michael here too, like theatres, concerts, and cinemas. All are struggling for survival now.

I'll happily accept that I'll live a few weeks less, old aged and bed ridden, when RSV kills me. Most of those deaths by, eg, the common cold have hardly any effect on QALY. It's often a question of dying now or in a month. But a good live and functional society needs socializing and culture.

Erlkoenig

That's debatable, I read somewhere that each (cold) infection weakens the body, and Covid can do this to a considerable extent. So these infections could reduce the life quality for years

gschenk

16:09

Well, we've no way to supress those infections well enough that they cannot become endemic. Unless we throw young people and extroverts under the bus.

Michael

the big question is how harsh the measures would have to be to have a good effect

DavidW

@gschenk So much this. I went more than 2 full years without anything other than allergies. Then people started doing stuff again, and I've had 2 colds since September. And since my immune system started slacking off at some point in there, they both lasted more than a week. Ugh.

Michael

right now people are just spreading viruses left and right again

gschenk

You need a lot of people living longer at the end of their live to compensate for a teenage suicide. This is the extreme end of this argument, but it is similar with depressions and behavioural disorders and a minor improvement of health of future old people.

DavidW

@gschenk I've certainly known my share of extroverts I'd be happy to contribute.

gschenk

16:13

@Michael they are doing so much less than before 2020. People are still wearing masks on the bus in mary parts of Germany. Clubs and pubs are still not at capacity. Lot of people lost the habit of going out.

Michael

@gschenk guess it’s different here in Austria

if we wanted to spread disease we couldn’t do a better job

gschenk

@DavidW because extroverts are so loud, we tended to overlook that for an extrovert quiet may be as awful as a loud party is for an introvert.

@Michael afaik, no, except for the masks.

I think we are slightly suppressing virus spread, roughly what we'd expect if things were back to 2019 levels and we had mild measures.

Michael

sick people everywhere and nobody gives a shit

gschenk

I think some measures should become habitual. Mask when sick, staying at home when sick, mask's at the doctor's during flue season, coughing etiquette.

3

Erlkoenig

Mask when sick doesn't protect you from getting sick in the first place

gschenk

16:20

That's not important.

2

You cannot protect yourself without immense effort.

DavidW

@Erlkoenig Masking was always primarily about protecting other people from you.

Erlkoenig

wearing a mask in public transit is not an immense effort

gschenk

It's important to slow down spread and make it easier to protect vulnerable groups.

It's why FFP2/N95 masks were entirely ineffective in public.

People cannot follow proper mask procedures outside of clinical settings.

Michael

speaking of which, I wanted to order FFP2 masks with exhale valve

since they are now allowed I can go the asshole-ish route :D

gschenk

You protect yourself from breathing in the virus, then handle the mask and infect yourself with concentrated virus load in the filtrate.

@Michael I would have loved to have an FFP2 mask with an inhale valve.

Michael

16:23

@gschenk no you don’t

don’t touch the mask or at least don’t touch your face and you are fine

gschenk

yes, and who would or could do that?

Michael

people were too stupid

but in principle it’s totally possible and not hard

gschenk

put the mask in a plastic bag, to dry it at home for one week after one use.

No, it is not stupidity, it is just unrealistically difficult.

Michael

it’s stupidity and neglect and comfort above everything

gschenk

When wearing the mask consequently I need to take it off and on about 20 times a day.

Michael

16:25

just take 20 seconds to put on your mask properly before entering a building and don’t take it off unless absolutely necessary (drinking doesn’t count)

gschenk

At home I'd need a mask rotation of 7 to 14 mask for each in the family.

Out of my flat into the lift (on), out door (off), to the bakery (on + off), lift (on) , home (off), repeat for getting lunch, repeat for shopping, repeat for having a walk ...

Michael

don’t use the elevator, don’t go to the bakery

gschenk

Kids in school have to do it even more often.

Michael

and if you do, yes, put on a mask

at work I put it on every time I leave my desk

gschenk

@Michael that's about 32 times (4 times per hour)

Michael

16:29

but the big question is if it’s even necessary

gschenk

yes, that's my point. It is ineffective.

Michael

@gschenk I don’t care, it’s on company time :D

gschenk

Cloth masks were equally good. Cause it's about slowing down spread of infection.

Michael

for me it’s now all about protecting myself, nobody else gives a shit

4

gschenk

If you really have to avoid it, because of a medical condition, old age, or protecting someone in your household it is somewhat possible. Albeit with great effort, reduction of quality of life (no bakery!), and costs (throwing away mask after single/few uses)

Michael

16:31

so an FFP2 mask with a good seal is required

gschenk

That is another issue. 95% of FFP2 mask users did not have a good seal.

only 5% were compliant.

I shaved for it. And it needs a close, painful shave. I was bleeding every time i went to wear FFP2 mask well. I also could only get a good seal with 3M masks (3 EUR each).

I wore FFP2 masks about 6 to 10 times. Wouldn't go to any shop, bus, train for half a year when we had a mask mandate.

I did proper mask procedures. Not to a point where it reliably protected me, but following best practices. I can tell you: It is not compatible with a working society, as it costs too much time and cannot be taught or enforced.

Michael

I pretty much only use the 3M masks. they are they only ones which seem like they are actually sealing properly

at work I sometimes use the AirQueen Breeze masks because they are easier to put on and off (thanks to the ear loops)

I’ve just ordered 40 of the 3M Aura 9322+ with exhale valve here: euro-industry.com/…

gschenk

i've seen them being used in conjunction with a simple medical mask covering the exhale valve.

Erlkoenig

@Michael Ah, the only shop that sells the specific grease tune freehubs need 😄

gschenk

So it's FFP2 protection for the wearer, and increased protection for others since exhaled air actually goes through a filter and not just through all the gaps. (FFP2 masks often performed worse in protecting others than simple masks).

Michael

16:47

@gschenk if I wanted to protect others I’d just use the model without valve

gschenk

Wait. We are talking about reducing the spread of infection for an hour. And you don't care about it?

Michael

well, if everyone (or almost everyone) is wearing a mask then of course it would make sense for me to wear one without valve

but since nobody else is wearing a mask it’s only about protecting myself

gschenk

That's very much orthogonal to a behavioural strategy informed by the categorical imperative and utilitarianism.

Erlkoenig

17:22

It is utilitarianism only for yourself, which fits our society perfectly.

Michael

and wearing a mask with exhaust valve is probably still offering some protection to all the maskless people around you. At least more than if you behaved like them and wore no mask at all.

DavidW

17:55

@gschenk Out of the flat (on). Lift, bakery, tobacconist, whatever, lift, home (off). Unless you're a smoker, in which case you've likely got greater harms to worry on, you don't need your mask to be off when running between locations.

@Michael For all that they're a pain to get on and off, I actually prefer the headstrap masks. I don't know if I have a big face, or small ears, or what, but wearing earloops for more than an hour or two starts to actually hurt.

And with a tiny bit of practice it's not really that difficult to remove, or even replace, a mask touching only the straps.

Michael

@DavidW same here, and it feels like only the headbands have proper tension and pressure

Andy P

21:20

@Michael back to the topic from earlier. Seems the Ineos camp has progressed to some tempo base building. Kwiato has been cranking out a lot of tempo climbing recently (at very steady power so assuming riding to plan/targets)

Andy P

22:51

seems the thread necromancy is still going strong today

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