The Velodrome

Andy P

00:14

@Erlkoenig go ride a world cup XC course on a gravel bike and let us know how that works out for you ;-)

@gschenk I think where the gravel bike fits between those two options is adding vastly improved road capability to the XC bike. My hardtail is my gravel bike, and on the off road sections i'm super glad i have bigger tyres. But on tarmac into a headwind it's clearly the wrong tool for the job.

Criggie

00:44

hah remember a couple weeks ago when I managed to drop 2.95 kg over a ride?
Today's ride I was 97.0 beforehand, and 93.6 afterward. Loss of 3.4 kg over 4 hours 20 mins, and that's while drinking a whole bottle and having breakfast.

water weight for the win

Criggie

01:40

I need a nap after that ride

dropped to 12 km/h, on the flat..... was a stiff head wind plus the rigid MTB plus a trailer.

Nathan Knutson

07:05

I got to put an early-ish Richard Sachs in a box today.

Criggie

07:54

err - was Richard alive? Or was this a burial ?

Nathan Knutson

08:07

har har

the brooks pro on it was not in happy state, and the wheels were far from worthy of the bike but did have probably the original campy hubs, but on not super well built wheels. the cranks weren't cracked so that's cool.

Erlkoenig

09:37

What low-impact sport to do if you want to look good but hate repetitive indoor sports (gym, weight-lifting) but like cardio? Swimming? Cycling is good but only trains the legs...

gschenk

10:22

@AndyP yes, it is indeed so. However, the niche-gravel-bike argument stipulates that endurance road bikes are better for that. There is only a narrow niche of gravel coarseness where a gravel bike is considerably better than an endurance road bike. While soon it simply is too rough for gravel bikes altogether.

If XC MTB manufacturers stop going all gravity and make some more versatile hard tails again, the niche for gravel would close altogether.

Endurance bikes in the last few years narrowed the gap already.

An endurance bike might be a cheap and lighter alternative to a gravel bike.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk If they made XC MTBs with drop bars (for comfort) and rigid frame (weight saving, maintenance) that would make gravel bikes superfluous. Because such a bike is a gravel bike...

gschenk

Drop bars aren't necessarily an advantage there, while front suspension and slacker geometry is.

Erlkoenig

Those are a disadvantage if you want to actually ride the bike to reach the trail rather than drive

gschenk

But then you'd lose all advantages of the road bike on the road. Riding with 50 mm knobby tyres, front suspension, slack steering, and most of all pretty upright. Just ride a MTB with bar ends.

Erlkoenig

(inner) bar-ends are a poor substitute for drop-bars and brifters

gschenk

10:36

@Erlkoenig yes, that's my point. If you make a gravel bike to behave like a MTB, just with drop bars, it's just a MTB with drop bars.

Erlkoenig

That's why you use gravel bikes the way they are

gschenk

@Erlkoenig a MTB is a poor substitute for a road bike. But if your trails are so harsh you need an MTB it's probably still better than riding a road bike there and carrying it.

Erlkoenig

But most trails aren't. Riding a gravel bike somewhat fast on the road/gravel paths TO the trail, riding it slowly/sketchy on the trail, can be better than riding an actual MTB slowly on the road and fast on the trail

gschenk

@Erlkoenig it's not the drop bars that make the bike not suck on roads. It's being a road bike with drop bars.

Erlkoenig

I never ever see road/endurance bikes on all the gravel paths in the area. When I see MTB's, they are usually way slower than me on the gravel bike. Sure they are faster on the trails, but I have little interest in riding those anyways. So the gravel bike seems pretty reasonable

gschenk

10:40

@Erlkoenig well in that case, a modern endurance road bike is all you need.

Erlkoenig

Do those support tyres with 40mm?

gschenk

CX bikes used to be great for that. If the trails were too bad, just shoulder it. Takes just 5 s to do so.

Apparently, yes.

Erlkoenig

You can still do that with gravel bikes

So what's the difference between an endurance bike with 40mm tyres and a gravel bike?

gschenk

And, you won't need more anyway.

@Erlkoenig no. Gravel bikes are built not to be shouldered.

Too tight frame triangle to get shoulder through and way too heavy.

Erlkoenig

I can shoulder mine perfectly fine

gschenk

10:44

@Erlkoenig groupset, weight, and price.

With the latest generation of gravel bikes they went all MTB like. Slacker, tougher, more mounts, fatter tyres, heavier.

Erlkoenig

If you ride terrain that requires 40mm tyres, you don't want a road groupset, and there are very light gravel bikes (<7kg)

gschenk

CX bikes are niche again. Only expensive bikes made to race.

Erlkoenig

Gravel bikes are basically non-racing comfortable utility-capable CX bikes

gschenk

@Erlkoenig there's hardly a difference between road and gravel groups. What is more, CX was always raced on road groups. Lastly most gravel bikes csme with road groups until 2021: Rival, 105, Tiagra. Only GRX 400 changed it recently.

@Erlkoenig they used to be. But they are moving away. Cause there's money to be made with bike packing gear for proprietary mounts. And with great outdoor adventures adverts.

Gravel bikes are becoming the SUV of cycling.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Gravel groups have certain advantages such as the clutch mechanism and lower gearing, which is pretty useful.

@gschenk Only some. There's still a lot of "generic" gravel bikes that fit my description

@gschenk Except without the disadvantages of actual SUVs...

gschenk

10:54

@Erlkoenig that's all there in road groups.

Erlkoenig

Which road group has a clutch mechanism?

gschenk

@Erlkoenig they are still bikes. But watch the adverts and compare. It's the same marketing trick to sell 'freedom' to different demographics.

Erlkoenig

But the ads don't matter for the bike's usefulness

gschenk

@Erlkoenig all SRAM 11sp groups, 105, Ultegra (since '18)

It's just a spring to keep return chain under tension. It causes drive train losses though.

Erlkoenig

@gschenk Interesting, didn't know that. So if road and gravel groups are identical, it doesn't matter if you use a gravel group?

@gschenk I was under the impression there is also a freewheel mechanism plus a friction brake.

gschenk

11:05

@Erlkoenig GRX groups are nice.

Erlkoenig

But probably not found on endurance bikes

Andy P

@Criggie you rode 4hrs and only drank 1 bottle?! :o

@gschenk I wouldnt consider it that niche. Gravel in the UK is pretty chunky and often muddy too - not somewhere i'd really consider taking an endurace road bike

Erlkoenig

Perhaps the endurance bike is the niche now

Andy P

@gschenk I'd disagree with that. There is still a very wide divide in the gravel market from full on aero race bikes to drop bar mtb's and everything between

Andy P

11:29

@Erlkoenig Probably should be though. 99% of people riding endurance road bikes dont have high enough W/Kg to climb at a decent cadence on road gearing

Endurance bike kinda lost it's identity.
I'm not sure they do anything well anymore.
There's definitely still a market for what is essentially a more upright race bike that mamils can ride without getting a sore back.

Between disk brakes, aero tubes, wider tyres and extra features like hidden mudguard mounts most endurance bikes have become WAY too heavy and not very good for the original role of an endurance bike

Erlkoenig

Well then, put 40mm tyres and GRX on and you got yourself a gravel bike without buying a gravel bike!

gschenk

11:57

Changing groups is expensive, and not really with it.

Andy P

Are there many endurance bikes with clearance for 40mm? I thought they were usually 35ish

gschenk

12:41

The Gravel CX bike I'm building up also goes only to 40. I'll be using 35 tyres.

There are a lot of arguments about rolling resistance but in the end for me it's just: anything fatter looks really awful.

2

Renaud

@Erlkoenig Maybe defining a niche in a market where every manufacturer wants to make their bike closer to another niche is a tiring exercice :p

Andy P

13:41

@gschenk Some look bad, but i think there's some fat tyre drop bar bikes out there that look stunning

Erlkoenig

14:06

@AndyP Bearclas Beaux Jaxon :)

Andy P

14:25

Nice bike, i'd love to own and ride one. But kinda ugly imo.
I was thinking more like this:

Or this:

Adam Rice

15:59

Looks like it is zombie thread day here.

3

gschenk

16:34

The last one even looks good with mud guards.

Erlkoenig

Tbh I don't like the "blade" look of CF forks but I suppose that's the best shape to make them

Nathan Knutson

17:45

@Erlkoenig I handle the Salsa Cutthroat, which is a bike like you describe, and while they're cool, it's not a road bike.

Sometimes people buy them with the hope of it being a tough, fast generalist, and it isn't.

MaplePanda

@Erlkoenig I’ve recently taken up rock climbing for basically the exact same reason as you (also because I figured it may be hard to bike in Ontario winters). Give it a try sometime!

I’m sure Michael would agree :)

Erlkoenig

19:16

@NathanKnutson The cutthroat doesn't even look fast :o]

@MaplePanda Interesting idea but I suppose that requires a lot of technique and skill, hmm.

gschenk

@Erlkoenig I quite like archery.

Erlkoenig

That's pretty high-impact, isn't it...

Rowing would be interesting but is a lot of effort (and expensive)

Criggie

19:48

@AndyP yeah - it wasn't that hot. Stiff headwind meant more restrained riding

@Erlkoenig Depends if you're the archer or the catcher :-P

DavidW

20:12

@Erlkoenig Swimming is good; actually swimming is great since it not only gives you a full-body workout (including core) it's also good for breathing.

That looked weird. Someone just went through and starred a bunch of comments. That's not weird. What was weird was watching the starred-comment list update before the star appeared on the comment. Also weird was watching them start at the bottom of the screen and move up.

Criggie

innocent

@DavidW Turns out there's a hat for starred messages in chat

Erlkoenig

@DavidW Thanks, that's what I thought. But why is it good for breathing? Because you need to be aware of it?

Criggie

20:41

I'd think so - exercising with reduced breathing would help develop the lungs

Erlkoenig

20:56

@Criggie Hmm, interesting. And I suppose training by swimming doesn't need much technique...

Criggie

21:11

Dunno - I hate swimming so don't do it.

DavidW

22:39

@Erlkoenig You have to breathe to a rhythm, so you can't just pant, and the tempo also forces you to take deeper/fuller breaths which is good for training lung capacity. (I don't know if it's actually possible to increase lung capacity, but since there's a natural tendency to lose lung capacity as you age it can forestall that somewhat.)

@Erlkoenig Well, the more swimming strokes you can do the more diverse your workout. If nothing else you'll want to do both freestyle and backstroke, since they train opposed muscle groups.

You don't want to be some of the guys I've seen at the gym, who have trained their chest/abs so much they're starting to look a bit hunched.

@Criggie I used to swim - a lot - before I got into cycling. But it's also the lack of a suitable pool close (enough) by that (importantly) has reasonable hours for swimming.

There's a pool only 3km distant I could ride too fairly easily, but the times for lap swimming are like 11:45-12:45, 17:00-18:00 (both when I'm working) or 21:00-22:00 (which is too late for me to work hard; it will keep me up).

gschenk

22:58

@Erlkoenig yes archery is high impact, however only for the target.

@Erlkoenig you have to time your breathing with your strokes, and you have little time to breathe in while you are tilting your head out of the water.

I tend to slowly accrue an oxygen deficit, to the point that i get close to fainting after a few lengths.

I'm a terrible swimmer my wife can do twice the distance in half the time without being out of breath. It's like cycling with her reversed.

@DavidW I'm living next to a pool that's open 7 to 22. And haven't been there since I move here. There's always something preventing me to go. COVID, summer, repairs, laziness, various colds and the flue.

MaplePanda

23:47

@Erlkoenig It's not as bad as it looks. Indoor bouldering and climbing are very accessible.

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