The Velodrome

Criggie

01:05

Bike porn upshot

that is one weird bike.

want

Michael

05:52

@Criggie looks funny :D Not the most stupid design I’ve ever seen

though the reach is way too short

Andy P

06:36

@Criggie Some people have the strangest fetishes

Criggie

dang - my LBS is out of spoke nipples.

Erlkoenig

@AndyP Says someone who goes in circles in skintight clothes

Andy P

😈

Michael

@Criggie I have like 40 aluminium nipples lying around here, want some?

@Criggie I just noticed a huge problem with this kind of bike: How do you stop? Usually you’d move in front of the saddle so you can reach the ground.

this bike has negative standover height

Andy P

It's like a penny farthing - you have to dismount backwards using the step

Or in this case direct to the ground, but same principle applies

Michael

06:50

mhhh, considering the very short reach it’s probably doable

unless you have a ton of stuff on the rear rack :D

Michael

07:05

Bosch is now making ABS for bikes

Andy P

interesting, although probably somewhat unnecessary.
It's possible to do, but how many times have you actually locked up a front wheel?

Michael

a few times. One time at 50km/h. Not fun :D

can even make a lot of sense in cities, wet manhole covers and paint are quite slippery

for casual cyclists the more interesting feature is probably that it also makes sure your rear wheel doesn’t lift off the ground (i.e. prevents you (or at least the bike) from flipping)

Erlkoenig

07:30

Almost got run over thanks to stupid street layout. One-Way street with two lanes and no bike lane. Calm traffic. Was approaching a crossing, right lane is for right-turning only, left lane for straight & turning left. Wanted to go straight, so did a lane change to left lane (incl. shoulder check and indicating). Several seconds later, some soccer mom in a car honks at me and overtakes me on the right(!), i.e. on the right-turning lane, and continued straight.

She was probably angry she couldn't overtake while not realizing that I had to ride the left lane. The next block actually has a protected bike lane, so you have to ride a weird S-curve on the crossing to change from the left lane to the bike lane on the right. Thanks, city planners.

Renaud

@AndyP Front wheel, on gravel, yep (and on cobble stones). But it can be useful for the rear wheels, especially for 45km/h e-bikes.

Michael

@Erlkoenig lol :D

Erlkoenig

Even if I was wrong... If someone in front of you does something stupid, should your reaction be to honk, speed up, overtake dangerously on the wrong lane on the wrong side? Would she have done the same thing if I was driving a big truck?

Michael

sometimes I wonder what would happen if you called the police and reported it (assuming you had enough time and presence of mind to remember the number plate)

do camera recordings count as evidence in Germany?

but it’s probably too much hassle anyway …

Erlkoenig

It's a gray zone, dashcams are semi-illegal. You can file a police report but it takes hours (in person of course).

Michael

07:42

those are the moments I kind of envy the Chinese people. Camera surveillance everywhere and everyone behaves because you automatically get punished if you do illegal things

IIRC they even have face recognition to automatically fine pedestrians if they ignore a red traffic light

Erlkoenig

Pretty dystopian :D I'd prefer proper infrastructure so people don't even feel the need to do stuff like that

Michael

maybe this would even stop smokers from throwing their cigarette buds on the ground

unfortunately infrastructure doesn’t stop people from being assholes

Erlkoenig

If there is less conflict, less stress and fewer opportunities for conflict...

Andy P

@Michael I don't know about going that far, but i'd love to see more police out and about actually enforcing laws. It'd be real nice if all the people that only care about themselves found themselves with no driving license for a few years

@Renaud Yeah, gravel is actually a decent use case, good thinking

gerrit

@Criggie About recumbents: I still want to try a two-wheeler!

I need more time, which is unsurprising; I'm not super-agile, and was also late and slow learning to ride a bicycle as a child.

I had been trying for about 15 minutes when someone offered to push me the first bit to get up to speed, then, after he released me, I rode for about three seconds until I crashed and bent the handlebar such that it had to be fixed before I could use it again.

I was unhurt, but at this point he asked me to return the bike to the booth where they could fix it, and I didn't dare to ask if I could try their other demo two-wheeler at this point…

Andy P

07:53

doh! :D
Fortunately bike manufacturers are pretty much expecting this at test events - they probably didnt mind in the slightest

gerrit

Indeed. I did have to sign a form to not sue them if I get hurt trying their bike.

Michael

I’d also love to try a recumbent

gerrit

I will study this detailed answer by Willeke before I try next time.

Michael

those super low trikes also look cool, but they are heavy

my mum has MS, if only I could convince her to ride one of those …

Andy P

I once fell off a nice Santa Cruz MTB at a test event. Me (and it) bounced down some large rocks. They just checked it over and let me take it on another lap.
Still got some nice scars from that crash

gerrit

07:56

Yes. Most of the demo models they showed had electric assist. Most of the demo models overall at the Eurobike were electric. Of course, they want to sell their most expensive bikes preferably :)

The test track was entirely within the area of the Frankfurt Exhibition (Frankfurt Messe), so no large rocks there, but they did route it up and down the parking garage so it had at least some up and down (and a turning circle that was a bit tight for some of the bigger freight bikes).

I tried Babboes largest freight bike (marketed more for companies than for individuals), but it had such a large turning circle that I couldn't make it up the spiral ascent in the parking garage :D

Renaud

@AndyP I'm actually thinking that it can make sense for e-mtbs as well. Thinking about this cateogry in particular because I have the impression that this segment develops for non-enthusiasts. People with only city biking (or no) experience rent a MTB for a day or two as part of a holiday in mountains. Would make sense for this kind audience.

gerrit

Yes, it was great fun to try lots of fancy bikes, some costing more than €10k, at Eurobike. There was a long queue at the Specialized booth as well, but I didn't find the time to try those.

The Hase tandem was also really popular (half upright, half recumbent).

Andy P

e-mtb is actually the segment where you are most likely to find an enthusiast/pro riding one. They are incredibly useful as a training tool for people competing in Enduro/DH. They make it much easier to get to the top of the hill so you can have more runs.
Also MTB trails can be STEEP and relentless - e assist allows weekend warriors to get to the top without stopping to rest every 2 mins

Renaud

@AndyP the remark was about ABS (applied to e-mtbs).

Enthusiasts usually learn very fast (sometimes the hard way) how to handle the brakes. For example, I didn't think about cobble stones initially because it's somehow so ancient that it's now in the muscle memory.

Andy P

ABS for sure makes sense there (or on the front wheel of any MTB really)
Although not sure how it would cope with muddy conditions.
In the car my experience is that abs works quite well in the wet, but rather less good on mud/snow/ice

gerrit

08:10

I saw the Sunrider as well, or something looking very much like it, but unfortunately that one was not available for test-riding (I did test-ride the podbike but was not really impressed).

Andy P

@gerrit What did you find not impressive about it? I'd definitely like to try podbike

gerrit

Well, to say "not impressed" is maybe not entirely fair, it looks impressive from the outside. But I found it not a great riding experience.

It was quite noisy on the inside, the model I tried was entirely closed with active ventilation, but it still felt hot and I miss the fresh air I normally have on a bike.

I also found the buttons for the indicators or controlling the ventilation a bit finicky.

I couldn't really try it at speed though, due to the short and crowded test track.

They said they were working on the noise and that future models would be quieter.

They had another demo model that was only half closed, but the one I got to try was fully closed (there was a long queue for trying the podbike, so I didn't get to choose).

Erlkoenig

Being enclosed and not having fresh air is probably exactly what a certain audience wants

gerrit

In Norway in winter, probably yes. During a heat wave in central Germany, not really.

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Exactly. Something like that could make commuting a far more desirable prospect here

Although in the UK the widespread use of various forms of 'cycle gate' would be a big problem

Do they have these remarkable stupid contraptions in other places too?

gerrit

08:25

IMO Most countries first of all need vastly improved cycling infrastructure, so that one can safely commute without worrying about cars all the time. Not everyone feels comfortable slaloming between cars.

There are some places in Germany where they have gates to force cyclists to slow down. They're not very common, but with a trike they could be a problem, even more so with a velomobile.

And in The Netherlands there are some bike paths that are really really narrow.

Good luck riding here with a trike or velomobile: flic.kr/p/2ntRuPD

Michael

why not?

I think rough ground is uncomfortable because you can’t absorb bumps with your legs

but this looks quite soft

gerrit

The bike path is the shell path on the left.

The road on the right has loose sand. You'd have a lot of resistance trying to plough through that.

Michael

wtf? Just ride on the road

that narrow thing on the left is for deer

Andy P

lol, whoever made that and called it a bike path was a bit optimistic :D

gerrit

It works on a regular bike as long as you're not overtaking, meeting, or drunk.

I find riding through loose sand quite challenging, so I don't ride on the road in this case. And sometimes they have those narrow bike paths without being next to a road.

Most bike paths are wider than this, though. This was a small connection between two other roads. If I had a velomobile or trike, I would just make a detour sticking to wider tracks.

Andy P

08:33

@Michael On most bikes that would likely be a nightmare. Unless I had + or fat tyres I wouldnt want to ride on sand. On narrower tyres the rolling resistance is extreme and the front wheel goes wherever it chooses and is prone to washing out

Erlkoenig

How bad is a shell path for tires (punctures)?

Michael

@AndyP depends on how deep and soft this dirt/sand actually is

gerrit

In my experience, quite deep and quite soft.

Michael

@AndyP here in Austria around the Neusiedlersee (our biggest lake) most paths are fine sand and they are perfectly fine with 25mm road bike tyres

gerrit

In recent years, many shell paths have been replaced by tarmac, in particular on busier routes.

But usually, they're wider, like in this photo: flic.kr/p/2ntXYZw

I haven't had problems with flats on shell paths.

Andy P

08:39

@gerrit Now that is a great path. I wish for paths like that everywhere so I can go all day long with no cars.

Michael

shell path? Is that what you call those gravel paths? o.O

Andy P

@Michael have you got a photo? I live right next to a beach = have cycled on a fair bit of sand (on the beach, in the forest, even blown onto the road) and have never found any that i'd want to ride on road tyres

Michael

(just a photo I found on the internet)

Andy P

thats not sand, its gravel

Michael

it’s fine gravel :D

Andy P

08:43

yeah, BIG difference between that and actual sand

on sand with narrow tyres you are doing 150W for 10km/h and you cant steer

Michael

if it’s really soft sand which isn’t compacted at all, yes

Erlkoenig

May I introduce you to our lord and saviour, the gravel bike?

Andy P

it only stays compacted if its kept wet. you'd need a sprinkler system installed. and if it dried out once then you'd have to bring heavy rolling equipment to compact it again

Renaud

@Erlkoenig On sand, our lord and saviour is the fat bike.

Andy P

@Erlkoenig Honestly, I wouldnt even want to ride a gravel bike on sand, its still not enough tyre volume. 29x2.2 is about the bare minimum for fairly shallow/compacted sand, more like 2.8" minimum as soon as it gets a little deeper/softer

gerrit

08:50

Can fat bikes really ride without difficulty in deep fresh powdery snow?

Michael

probably not without difficulty. Even with snowshoes you sink in a few centimeters on fresh, soft powder snow

gerrit

With my snowshoes, I sink probably 10-20 cm in such snow; without snowshoes, around 80 cm.

I imagine they could work on snowmobile trails.

I had 42mm tyres in winter when I lived in the far north, and on snowmobile trails it almost worked.

Michael

with the cyclocross with 33mm tyres I just sink in until I have “ground” contact

Andy P

Ted Talks Fat Biking | How To Cycle In The Snow

►

Michael

works okay-ish as long as it’s not more than 10 or 15cm snow and the snow is really soft

10cm of wet snow is the worst

Andy P

08:55

If you sleep through the infomercial aspects of that video it gives a relatively realistic picture of how fat bike can perform

@Michael Similar experience here. Tried on ~10cm of fresh powder with some 2.2" mud tyres and actually worked really well. It's when it becomes either slush or compacted the problems begin

Both sand and snow :)

gerrit

Hmm, interesting: fatbikeskis.com

Andy P

09:14

haha, that looks fun!

gschenk

@AndyP see it done with 32 mm tyres. You just need to be WvA.

instagram.com/p/BNCfESeA6xE/…

Michael

but this is wet sand :p

Criggie

09:59

@gerrit I would totally let you try my bikes.

So I learned something today - when most of your bikes are down for some reason, do as little maintenance on your last one as possible.

Don't start taking your only working bike to bits if you can possibly avoid it.

I was trying to fix some chain-slip, still don't know if it was front or rear, but I dropped a link out of the chain, and realised the back wheel was wobbly, so the bearings got cleaned and repacked.

Possibly my chainring is worn, but both rings do the same. Chain has 300 km on it, and chain checker says its not stretched.

Michael

yes it’s risky

but I lived years with only one bike

Criggie

10:42

You're proud of a low N? Have you fixed that since ?

:)))

Mithical

@Criggie Both of mine are out of commission right now, but one of them only because I can't frickin' get the new tire on it.

(I punctured it, replaced the inner tube, punctured again, replaced the inner tube, realized the new tube wasn't inflating, and had to ride on the flat to a bus stop. It was the final nail in the coffin for a tire that was on its way out.)

I had a replacement tire waiting... but it won't go on the wheel. >.<

Michael

@Criggie I’m at 2 now :D

Criggie

@Mithical Oh bother that's not ideal.

@Michael 2, so far !

Michael

I’m very reluctant to go up

I mean … I’m even repairing the old cyclocross instead of replacing it with a fancy new gravel bike with hydraulic disc brakes and everything

would be a shame to throw a good frame away

a recumbent would be nice. And a velomobile. And a hardtail MTB. And a proper full suspension MTB. But that’s all just nice to have and I wouldn’t really use any of them regularly enough.

Andy P

If you are willing to spend a little more you can combine the 2 MTB's. Modern 'downcountry' bike with fully lockable suspension is really quite versatile.
Or even some of the new 120mm FS XC bikes

Criggie

10:59

-grin- I don't even throw away the utterly ruined bikes. The cannondale is now cut in half and the rear triangle is a truing stand for rear wheels.

I epoxied the seattube crack back together for this purpose.

Andy P

11:38

UK hit new record high temp already today before we even get to hot part of day!
Unfortunately heat wave cancelled where I am, its back to cloudy

Erlkoenig

Certain parts of the city roast you alive even at "regular" summer temperatures, thanks to consisting 100% of tarmac. We need to restructure cities to regulate the coming hotter climate, e.g. planting trees. Another interesting idea: Cities like munich have several natural streams that are currently flowing in subterranean pipes. If we moved those back to the surface, we get evaporation cooling

Andy P

We definitely need to restructure. The heat is melting everything.
Airport runways, dual carriageways, electric cables for trains - all broken

Andy P

12:08

So I just went out in the car to get lunch. I was on a 3 lane road that had a speed restriction due to roadworks. I was in the middle lane because that was needed to go where I wanted to go.
I got simultaneously overtaken and undertaken because I was 'only' going 10km/h over the speed limit.
So to answer your question - yes the behaviour probably is the same if you are in a truck.
Similar to what Michael said -> people behave like asses because they are asses not because you ride a bike

Renaud

I still prefer to be out of their way if they drive a car/truck and I'm on a bike or by foot.

It's where infrastructure helps

Michael

I still think it’s mostly a social problem and not an infrastructure/safety/road design problem

Andy P

Also, mass retrofit of infrastructure in existing locations is EXPENSIVE. Having people actually enforce existing laws and fine people as appropriate almost pays for itself in the short-mid term. And maybe has the positive side effect that people behave less like animals

I can think of some locations near me where you could literally hand out £10k in £100 fines daily. And in the worst cases probably a bunch of penalty points on license too.
And the people breaking traffic laws are also probably breaking any other law they find inconvenient

Renaud

12:25

Mass retrofit is expensive but does not need to happen overnight. The cost of most covid-lanes was merely paint on the roads. And later you can do the retrofit.

Andy P

Most of our covid lanes never even got as far as paint.
They put cones up and then motorists complained so they took them down a week later

Although that was partly a consequence of more lack of law enforcement.
"Stay at home" was largely interpreted as "Do whatever you like" and barely enforced at all

Renaud

@Michael Building infrastructure is easier than changing mentalities, unfortunately. But there's also physics: event with well behaved people, I still think there are too much assymetry between cars and "active mobility" to allow them to share the same space.

DavidW

13:14

Even "well-behaved" people are going to do things like spill coffee on themselves at inopportune times. It doesn't take much of a twitch to throw a 60km/h car into vulnerable road users who aren't properly protected.

Maybe they should convert every road with a speed limit of more than 30km/h into a trench so that cars can't hit other people. Bonus, building safe crossings for pedestrians doesn't slow traffic down (such a horror).

Erlkoenig

Drinking hot coffee while driving isn't a good idea anyways...

DavidW

@Erlkoenig That's pretty much why I scare-quoted "well-behaved." There are a lot of accepted behaviours beyond just speeding that would have to be changed in order to make roads, as currently constructed, properly safe.

Erlkoenig

Indeed.

Michael

it’s not like car drivers regularly crash into random objects or swerve off the road

most of these very stupid accidents happen because of alcohol, which is another problem of course

though I guess nowadays the alcohol related deaths are declining but the distracted-by-smartphone deaths are on the rise :(

Andy P

13:45

That's a sad sight. I'd be horrified if that happened to my frame :(
Looks like an Aspero

Michael

@AndyP how did that happen? Tyre rub?

how can you not notice that?

Andy P

14:00

Yeah, the question I lifted the image from says tyre rub.
I don't know how you fail to notice that

That looks like the edge knobs have caused the main damage, but even the side wall is rubbing at times

Michael

is the black layer the primer or the first layer of carbon?

Andy P

Hard to tell with the way the light reflects from that metallic paint.
But it looks to me like its eaten through clear coat, 3 layers of paint and 1-2 layers of carbon

Erlkoenig

As a kid I managed to tyre-rub through a thick plastic layer of a lock...

Michael

14:22

now the third neighbour got a brand new fucking Land Rover Discovery. A fucking tank with 7.7l/100km fuel consumption and >200g/km CO2 emissions.

I guess gas is still too cheap

5

DavidW

@Michael The number of people I see glancing down when stopped at a light, or queued for a turn... I'm sure they think they're being discrete and "careful," but you just know that if that thing bings at them when they're making a lane change they're going to glance down at it. :-P

Renaud

14:41

@Michael Non relevant simplification IMHO. Car/bike/pedestrian accidents have multiple causes that do not involve speed, alcool or smartphones: door opening, bad evaluations of the intentions in crossings, bad evaluation of the respective speeds, difference in braking power - emergency stop, followed by a cyclist that can't brake on time, visibility... Cyclist/pedestrians can also behave erratically, not saying that the motorist is at fault all the time.

Renaud

14:57

@Michael Well, the bicycling industry is not the only one with supply issues. They probably ordered it when gas was cheap.

Andy P

15:54

It's one thing where I really dont mind taxes being super high. Govt make a lot of money from it = good for public services. And it's consumption based - there are many ways to use a lot less of it - in most cases its a luxury item.
Probably needs to be some sort of rebate system for rural businesses though.

People adapted their lifestyle around cheap fuel (taking timmy to soccer practice 30km away) over the last ~40 years. Maybe now its time to adapt them to use less

Damn, just put the news on.
England is literally on fire. Fire services declared major incident and residential estates turned to ashes

news.sky.com/story/…

Nathan Knutson

17:57

if and when people are forced to adapt their lives around not driving like they're used to, that will be true cultural armageddon

in the US at least

Andy P

20:19

2

Q: What is the best way to increase gear inches on an old bike

Hey group mind I hoping for some guidance. I only recently got into bicycling and without knowing anything, I bought a bike from a local used bike distributer. Here's what I've learned about the bike. The frame, seat, and handles are original to the bike which is a Univega Alpina Uno. Somewhere ...

This might be a first.
Someone looking for a bigger gear that *might* actually need a bigger gear

Michael

yes

31km/h at 90rpm is really not a lot

though with a mountain bike like that you have be pretty fit to spin out like that consistently

Sam

20:48

@gerrit It depends on what you mean. If you're just expecting to ride, then yes, you will be compacting the snow and riding fine (but it's hard work). If you're expecting to just float over a fresh layer of snow, then forget it. A snow shoe introduces uniform stress on the snow, but even 4" fatbike tyres introduce the stress gradually. The snow just collapses.

The general rule is that it's a lot easier if someone else has ridden, or a few people walked, ahead of you.

Michael

at least with the cyclocross a problem with compressed snow is that it tends to break

fat bike probably helps with that

Sam

@AndyP Excellent video introduction to snow cycling. I went and bought exactly the (pricey) bar mittens he describes. He omitted to mention one thing: they don't work with an aluminum handlebar. The conduction of aluminum means that you lose the heat to the bike frame very quickly.

@Michael Fatbike tyres are great for riding on soft sand and other slush-like snow covers, but it's a myth that they make you float like an angel over fresh snow. For the most common scenario, an MTB is quite enough; you don't really need a fatbike. What really matter is having studded tyres. That is indisputable.

Michael

@Sam studded tyres are only necessary on ice. At least with the cyclocross I found supple CX tyres at very low pressure to work better on snow (including compressed snow)

Sam

@Michael Even at -10C you can never trust that you are not going to encounter a 10m stretch of melted-then-refrozen patch. And over a 30km you are nearly certain that you are going to encounter a few of those 10m stretches. In a sense you're right. You don't really need studded tyres, but...

in practice you are very glad to have them. They make the difference between having to wonder every few 100m whether the shininess you see (if you can see it) means it's an icy patch. With studded tyres, you worry about other things and just ride. When you do hit an ice patch, you hear the cracking sound of the studs digging in, and you're really glad you invested the money.

With regular tyres you'll always be praying not to swipe the ground.

Michael

21:03

@Sam depends on what you want to do ;)

if it snowed over night and you just want to head out into the woods and have fun you don’t need studs

if you are commuting and can encounter black ice and stuff then studded tyres are pretty much a must have

Sam

@Michael I agree. In the woods there is very little risk of refrozen patches.

@Michael You got it. But it's not just commuting. You may be going on a joy ride, but on paved streets/paths.

BTW, falling on fresh snow while cycling is the most pleasant way to fall EVER.

It's softer than falling on the softest mattress.

Michael

:D

as long as you don’t get stuck on your bike and don’t hit any trees or roots :D

Sam

Where I am when it does snow, we get 40-50cm of snow <grin>

Michael

wow

time for bed, good night

Sam

I was mesmerized by the scenery and eager to bike over the third of these (bicycles.stackexchange.com/q/79413/48599) paths when I asked that question.

Conclusion: it's not really doable if you're the first. You have to wait for the pedestrians to compact it for you.

night night

(by not really doable I mean: Even with 4" tyres and at the lowest gear, my heart rate would reach zone 5 and I would stall running out of breath within a few hundred meters)

Andy P

21:14

Time for 5" tyres and upgraded lungs then :P

Sam

Not really. The point is that even 12" tyres would touch the tip of the snow incrementally, not distributing the rider+bike's weight. The snow must collapse under such stress. And this compaction is inherently tough riding. I wish I had a power meter to quantify it better.

Criggie

21:38

Need one of those ski-bikes :)

with a snowboard or ski for a front wheel, and some way to "extend" the rear wheel for more ground contact, like a snow-mobile

@AndyP Yeah - I've not seen a 17 tooth small cog before. 14 I think would be the biggest small I've seen before.

Andy P

21:53

Yep, although you'd still need to be unusually strong for 48/17 to be too small. I don't really remember back to 6 speed components. My first non kids bike was 2x7

Sam

22:13

@Renaud Just asked a similar question to (bicycles.stackexchange.com/q/84988/48599) a few days ago, but for an e-cargo-bike (cargo-e-bike?) that weighs 80 lbs (and costs $10,000—but that's a separate issue). The answer (from its pro-mechanic owner) is that it must be lifted from multiple points. The seatpost is definitely not enough.

Criggie

@MaplePanda not only did your question go to the HNQ, it got flagged with "More than 10 answers posted to this question in the past 7 days" which means its quite successful.

Andy P

@Criggie lawnmower repair place for that little motor is a great idea

Criggie

22:36

I do have the occasional brain bubble that turns out to be useful.

Downside, the rest of the week is not likely to have another.

gschenk

23:00

@Michael I love my avid ultimate shorty brakes. Easy to set up, quiet, and effective. Doesn't make me miss disc brakes.

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