I don't like the saleseyness of Myers Briggs. I prefer to discuss the big 5 in terms of percentile rankings.

@AaronHall they're all sales things at their heart.. What was the name of the one I had to do just the other day..hmm

Well the big 5 have the attention of peer-reviewed journals, for what it's worth.

WonderLic

@JimmyHoffa Life is all about selling stuff. either yourself or your ideas or what you want for dinner

maybe we should all just give up now

ahhh the wonderful world of not being able to add directories to git

eh?

can't you use the glob syntax?

you have to have a file in a directory of some sort (it can be a dummy .gitignore)

oh, you mean an empty dir? What's the point of that?

sorry for being impertinent

@Ampt yes well, some things provide value, other's just provide .. sales. Car's provide value, Myers-Gallup-Horonumerscopology just provides sales (to the seller that is).

A previous occupant of my office actually left a copy of Strengthsfinder in a desk here (I did the exact same thing in a previous job heh), so let's hear your strengths when you're done and we can look up what a jerk you are :D

you're going to get Command aren't you, Mr. Bossy Pants

left a copy? Is that sort-of a meta-command by the book?

@JimmyHoffa I was hoping for know-it-all but I'll settle for Bossy Pants

@JimmyHoffa I still like when someone wouldn't refer me to another job because I failed the personality test (didn't have the personality to be a developer - too friendly!). I told them I already was a successful developer, so were they going to believe their test or reality, but they didn't care. Also they tested my blood for growth hormone and told me I was 11 inches tall. Usually these things are fine, you dodged a bullet, but this for just introducing me to someone else, for goodness sake.

augh, trying to finish my threaded prototype

@AaronHall all state local. Goes in through parameters, out through return values. No destructive updates to nested references.

any tips?

lots of global - there's global state I have to read from the disk even.

thankfully the threads are singletons, one per child type

@AaronHall disk is one thing, but if you put lots of state in the global, take it out and don't touch that.

@AaronHall oh goodness what had you did..

lol

inheritance is for code-reuse hic!

Singleton's are notoriously decried explicitly because they're so dangerous to multi-threaded code

shit, what kind of threading primitives does Python have...

what's the last event that fires for jquery on page load

I'm using the high level stuff

anyways, two threads (plus the main thread)

@AaronHall the simpler the threading components you use, the easier it is not to screw them up. Often times the simplest pieces are called "primitives" as opposed to higher level abstractions like asynchronous tasks or producer consumer queues etc

One's a publisher, the others a cleaner - yeah, kinda like producer-consumer queues, but asynchronous, so instead of queues I'm using sets (I think)

@AaronHall according to this you should use queue's in Python multithreading because they safely handle locking for you, so I would walk away from the "sets" and go to the queues if I were you

Here's the documentation on Python Synchronization Primitives - this is what I was referring to earlier regarding what primitives does Python have for this stuff

Application Cache is a Douchebag

> Yes, that’s right, I verbified “offline.” Yes, I verbified “verb.” Feel free to inbox me grammar complaints that I’ll trashinate.

If I can use the Queue.Queue like a set, ok

@AaronHall so get rid of all the global state except the disk reading. acquire() a lock before reading from the disk and release() it when you're done - do this in 1 class that reads from the disk so that anything else can just try to read from the disk using that class and that class will manage synchronization. Also: do not access your global state across multiple threads, make your state all parameters, return values, and do not destructively update nested references

I did like their thread-safetiness

Oh, I was going to use file.read() continuously, tailing the file throughout the process.

@AaronHall not sure if you're kidding but.. do be kidding. Yes.

Each of the two subthreads will have a different file to tail

@AaronHall well, put locks around their file.read() calls all the same so they never try to access the same file at the same time

ok, sounds reasonable... but they should only be read by those single threads

so it might be unnecessary

@JimmyHoffa that sounds like cargo-culting.

@amon I'm encouraging only cargo-culting here because he said he's pretty much never written multi-threaded code before (unless I misunderstood you @AaronHall?)

The simplest things are the safest when someone is really confused by all of it I figure...

Yeah, I'm new to it, but I've successfully contributed to threaded code in our code-base before though.

(I'm trying to use Tableaus's Python SDK's, if anyone is wondering, and due to the architecture of our cloud, it's better to stick to a single process for it.)

@amon but perhaps you're right. If he knows the file accesses will be safe then nothing to worry about.

@AaronHall what is the problem you're having with your multi-threaded code anyhow?

Just trying to get it all composed

I'm probably over-analyzing and need to be running the main until the code works.

But you were giving me the most contextually applicable advice I've gotten so far.

@JimmyHoffa Hmm fair enough. The best multithreading model I've used was fork(), because shared-nothing is really easy to reason about. In contrast, shared-everything-by-default is horrible because that's really bugs-by-default.

I'm trying to use a Condition object with .wait() in the subthreads

and calling .notify() in the preceding threads

that does not sound exception-safe (which is the C++-programmer in me talking)

@amon that's why I repeated to him like 3 or 4 times now: do not access your global state across multiple threads, make your state all parameters, return values, and do not destructively update nested references

only destructive updates you should do in multi-threaded code is: local variables, or synchronized code - which requires following the whole dependency chain out to guarantee atomicity is appropriately modeled, which is a hugely risk prone activity especially when you're not practiced in doing so

so basically, just local variables.

@MichaelT I actually did some searching on one of my answers out on SO to see why it got arbitrary rep every once in a while and found a university assignment directly referencing it

@amon I expect spectacular failure if there's an exception.

@AaronHall why are you synchronizing threads to begin with?

it would be super cool if SO developed some tracking to let posters see referrers for their posts.

I want it to be tight

@MichaelT interesting, I did not.

@AaronHall was this a response of some kind to my question? I don't follow..

So maybe partly for my own edification, but also because I don't want them sleeping and waking all the time.

I want to elegantly use the high-level threading objects provided by the Python threading library.

The most elegant threading code doesn't do any synchronization

Yeah but.

@MichaelT we already have 2 referers from google? Must be the robot..

AGH there's a mimic!

Since when does anybody else go by Jimmy Hoffa ?? I just don't know what to think. I'm so confused now.

@MichaelT Of course, only repo owners can see that… AFAIK the GitHub tracking is just for the repo, not for GH pages. For lots of useless stats, you could dump Google Analytics into the page template if you can figure out the legal implications (I'm a bit behind of the curve regarding these cookie laws).

@amon this is a good idea..

Though that pushes me to this regarding github traffic analytics..

yeah that just looks like repos though

developmentseed.org/blog/2011/09/09/jekyll-github-pages <-- via Liquid templating we can in-line JavaScript files with Jekyll to put a GA snippet in place

developmentseed.org/blog/google-analytics-jekyll-plugin

^^ google analytics plugin for Jekyll

> Any .rb files in the /_plugins directory get run at site build time.

Well then, that makes hooking into GitHub's Jekyll CI easy enough

@MichaelT yeah, just trying to pull up some references on the specific hows so we can actually do such

Do Jekyll plugins work for GH pages? Last time I looked, they seemed to have disabled that for security reasons.

@amon seems logical, I kinda thought it might be considering it would allow anyone to execute arbitrary Ruby on GitHub's CI server

though the fact that servers are executing arbitrary code in safeboxes makes me always second guess that stuff these days. ideone and the countless clones and such

There's a lot of cool stuff that can be done with containers and such.

@MichaelT here we go, just put the JavaScript snippet into here and it'll pull GA. Didn't see the layouts stuff 'till just now, that's easy.

Well.

@MichaelT I prefer to think on deeper subjects. ;-)

Fjord

And not fjard. We're not talking about fjards. wrinkles nose

@KitZ.Fox So it... went... well?

@Ampt The important thing is that it is over with and can only get better from here.

@KitZ.Fox Healthy. Fit. Tip-top.

Fill up, overflow, gush.

Stop, cease, desist.

Thanks, appreciation, gratitude.

Sock is itchy. gets dryer sheets

@Ampt ∀ t ∈ {term}. resp: t → t * t * t

@KitZ.Fox My coworkers told me my snark factor was too damn high today.

smiles, fluffs tail

@Ampt Would you like me to engage in some antics to cheer you?

@MichaelT whatever, apathy, carelessness

@KitZ.Fox I'm not down, just an asshole.

I understand the confusion though :)

@MichaelT Foxes should not be behind fences. But that is really cute.

@Ampt I can work with that.

* = λx.λy.(x,y)

@Ampt we're well aware

@KitZ.Fox apparently my coworkers can't!

heh

Alright can someone make sure Kit's actually a mod and not just posing?

I think I maybe have been at work too long today.

I get less and less sure that english.SE is a thing every day.

sup room

my PM is pushing on me to try to find good devs who might want to work for Amazon

raises hand

Oh. You said good.

@durron597 how's the pay?

puts hand back down

if you might be interested (and I know you) I can short circuit some of the annoying steps and get to the meaningful steps of the interview process

Also where's the location?

(like, sending a resume into the ether and waiting a month)

@Ampt Seattle

The relocation package is quite nice

Is the environment as burnouty as it sounds?

there's some truth to all of it. people who wrote the NYT article spun it to the extreme and cherry picked stories, but it's not like working here is a place where you can read progs 8 hours a day at your desk either

as always it's somewhere in the middle

@durron597 in reality, this is the single thing that has held me back; I've had recruiters there message me in past years but I'm so done with moving, ever. My house is now my home.

@JimmyHoffa there's a recruiting event in Denver

No harm in showing up

though, you did just start a new job right?

the other cities with events are Austin, Boston, and Philly

How was the interview?

@Ampt not bad. i actually took interview training a few weeks ago; in the class they stress that they actually want the interview experience to be pleasant

What if they say, "No, and you're ugly too."

I mean, I just don't think I can take that kind of rejection.

@AaronHall then from what I can see, I discourage you to ever apply anywhere again. O_O

stressful interviews don't benefit anyone...

well except people with ego-complexes..

@enderland beat me to it..

:)

lol

I used to sell books door-to-door. I didn't let dogs stop me. I kept my book-bag between me and the barkers as I carefully closed the gate behind me and walked up to the front porch.

never got bit once, and I didn't even bother with doggie treats. Maybe I was lucky, though.

they said that 3 years ago it used to be like 8 hours and lunch was also an interview but they've been working hard to make it more pleasant - mine was certainly more pleasant than that, it was a half day only

Drinking time. Laters, yo.

neugierig.org/content/unix

Just cuz

@JimmyHoffa “The Vimquisition: ed, emacs, nano are heathen”

Thinking of it, I actually do use four different IDEs/editors on a regular basis.

I like C-x M-c M-butterfly

@amon don't get any bright ideas or the resident unix wizard will smack you.

@AaronHall you actually spent any further time in spacemacs?

@KitZ.Fox hasta la margarita

Still working on my threading prototype

But I'm using emacs if that's any consolation

@AaronHall what do you typically code your python in, anywho?

for work, usually a home-grown IDE much like Eclipse - on my laptop, emacs and to a lesser extent vim.

but this is just a prototype, so

@AaronHall home-grown IDE? Did you not just read the link? Really though, I'm surprised anyone still creates home-grown IDEs.. that seems nuts

I could use emacs on my desktop, but I'd have to set up some kind of server between our custom IDE and it.

dog-fooding for over 5000 Python devs

@AaronHall you can't run your python code in command line?

Yeah, I do that too

stupid windows

@AaronHall oh, your company actually productizes a Python IDE?

cmd.exe

looks up productizes

@AaronHall M-x shell ret

Yeah, I guess, suitable for selling maybe, but there would be no takers.

@AaronHall so your company only uses it internally?

Nothing says you're confident in your tech like using your language for your IDE.

That's right, only internally

new people are getting on it constantly though

I just got a guy on it today.

sounds like a waste of company resources...

@AaronHall nothing says “I believe this language is a silver bullet” like …

Requires maintenance and upgrades alongside the language to be done internally, and provides no business revenue to pay for said time.. I mean, woo that's cool! Custom IDE! Great idea! :)

Hey they may license and sell it to other companies...

I like the idea. Not good for a mom & pop operation, but works for us.

@enderland all things told, if it's good enough to be used by so many developers, it probably is saleable... Plausibly a good idea for them in the long run to recoup some of their investment

come on you're more cynical than that! where's the jimmy I know...

@enderland he's in the real world, this is just a fever dream from the beating the dev team gave you for opening bugs against them. Villainous QA philestine!

I'm sure we've given a lot of thought towards selling our platform, but like I said, we've determined there would be no takers.

@AaronHall if that's the determination, I would imagine that would indicate it's less viable for the job than other options...

there's the cynicalJimmy I thought I knew ;)

It's a custom solution perfectly suited for our needs and not really anyone else's. Others it might work for already have their own custom or commercial solutions.

s/perfectly suited for our needs/unable to adapt to any hiccups in our process/

All aboard the cynic express! CHOOO CHOOOOO!

my own company's history completely backs up your cynicism

we are in the process of replacing most of are perfect in-house solutions with thinly wrapped versions of open source software that do all the same stuff but better

Ah, see, we've included that in our platform.

Sounds like your company is in two businesses - one trying to use tools to make software, and the other is trying to make the tools. You'd likely be far better off just spending the money to buy an IDE license and gain productivity.

oddly enough, our last proprietary IDE was one that we bought a license to and customized

@AaronHall I see you've got an industrial sized shipment of nail wrapping paper.

this time around we just wrote one from scratch for some reason

(by "we" I mean the infrastructure team, I had nothing to do with these things)

when you have thousands of developers, you can afford to have a team of 20+ top end developers supporting your platform, with 1 or 2 assigned to maintain your IDE.

Man, I got a couple hundred thousand and I still had to pay for intelliJ....

I'm writing a strongly worded letter damnit!

@AaronHall that's like saying when you're rich you can have bonfires with money because it smells like Benjamins. Can and should are orthogonal concepts.

@JimmyHoffa his bathrooms dispense two ply hundreds.

not trying to say you shouldn't have that IDE mind you! I don't know a single thing about any of it, just poking at your argument concept: Trying to explain something isn't a bad idea because you can do it, is never a good approach to reasoning out a justification

Well, throw some other considerations on the table - regulatory environment for one.

what are your concerns about regulation and IDEs?

Do regulators understand git?

you home rolled a VCS?!

Nope, we use cvs.

this is sounding more and more like a Not made here syndrome

hg for the core

and yes, regulators understand version control

they understand cvs

cvs -> hg - alright, I just need some explanation of how that even works?

@JimmyHoffa you pull up to the CVS drivethrough to get your daily mercury supplements.

does everyone use hg and releases get pushed into some cvs system on reels from the 80s?

well you have a core build for infrastructure, with the business logic in cvs that uses the core as a dependency. does that make sense?

Slowly backs away

(side note: I actually had a job where I was responsible for management, backups, branching, and releasing in a CVS repo that had a tail dating back to mid 80s)

If I'm being honest, dollars to donuts those tapes were so re-written they were completely demagnetized haha :D

which, uh, industry did you say you were in again?

I didn't

He said before he was a consultant

but that all smells like a big bank

@JimmyHoffa as long as no one asks for a revert to the '88 tapes

@Ampt we rotated like 12 tapes :D

@JimmyHoffa HAHAHAHA

missed that

I haven't heard of them

then again I can't name a bank that we don't have at least one ongoing contract with...

every time I get an upvote for an SO question I am always surprised

ok

Yeah, I have a friend who works for them

I bet.

They'd probably be my first resume drop if I feel the need.

What area is your friend in?

He manages IT projects, he's an MD or partner, I think.

Yeah it'd be MD

don't think anyone uses partner anymore. They're called "Leadership" now

He talks about long working evenings in conference rooms.

And flying all over.

ha, that's what he gets for accepting promotion to MD

He's not really a programmer, from what I gather.

nah, that's solidly upper management - aka the guy who has to shake all the hands and schmooze all the clients

Yeah he's perfect for that. Kindof a cross between Mark Cuban and Bruce Campbell.

popcorn

ring a bell?

nah, found him but he's out in NY

imagine that, I'm in NY!

:P

:D

I was worried that he was the MD of my group - but he's not hahaha

I was about to STFU and purge real quick

does anyone have a good resource for understanding how ip/port stuff works on a fairly detailed basis?

I was just worried you'd know him and not like him, but everyone seems to like him, so I figured it was safe...

there are 6300+ MDs in my company, so chances are small that I would know him.

Figures. He says he runs 5 projects at a time.

do you guys have a standard development environment or do you just use whatever your client uses? Do you code on your own hardware or client's?

depends on the contract

last gig was client everything - it, timesheets, hardware

this one, everything is owned by us

ok

uh oh trains coming in

later

@enderland an introductory book on networking perhaps

;p

Excuse me?

Could you explain why your first statement to me today is a personal attack and name-calling?

books are tl;dr ;)

Meanwhile .... they were locking up the office just as I found that my final bug fix hadn't worked - annoying to do the long drive home with that going on

also you are the new resident expert on docker plz solve all my problemz - stackoverflow.com/q/35468844/1048539

got home and confirmed I just needed to rebuild one of the components

lol

and the fault I saw was definitely fixed by my fix and everything's great and fine

phew

who'd have thought implementing basic, condition-less loops would be such a pain in the pain area

While loops are the hardest.

took me like four hours to get it working properly alongside my conditionals. and allow everything to be nested. I implemented it all as a stack of "jump X commands after Y commands" ... maybe that's why

Programming is hard, let's go shopping!

:27653250 of course

I still have no idea what Docker is despite all the chatter about it

@Ixrec did you try reading the chatter? :)

@enderland hmm haven't used Docker networks but I bet I could come up with something. will look later

like most programming chatter, it quickly becomes gibberish without firsthand experience with the tool being discussed

@PreferenceBean I'm pretty sure it's something simple, like it normally is :)

for now I need beverages and Flash

@Ixrec s/programming/Whiteboard/

;)

@PreferenceBean I think it has to do with whatever docker does when it isolates the network

@enderland So you're trying to open ports between two Docker containers running on two separate Docker networks

it's not really clear from your question, though it can be deduced

just kinda says you want to open ports between networks lol

> How to expose ports between docker images in different sub-networks?

anyway, yeah, if Docker provides no routing between Docker networks then you will have to bounce the traffic off another network that they can both individually route to/from (the network of the host, perhaps)

yeah, I'm thinking that might be teh case

I don't know if I want to configure docker-machine that much...

@enderland to be picky, s/images/containers/ though yeah I guess I didn't really spot the title

@enderland why did you want separate networks for them?

I'm going down this route because I really want to know / keep track of many docker images and assign them IPs

and it'd be nice if we could manipulate them within subnetworks, as that prevents the port-cest that goes on

port-cest nice

I can see the benefit for neatness and sanity. not sure I see an actual practical problem with using the same network though

and you can always use a single /16 network then assign IPs using the penultimate octet for categorisation

I'm not sure if there is enough isolation from containers running in the same subnet

the newest version of docker lets you directly assign IPs :)

is it /16? dunno. I don't "do" IP mask notation. 192.168.x.x that one

but only within a subnet (which makes sense)

@enderland enough for what

I'm not sure yet

:)

the IP stuff lets you do neat things like:

> docker run --name=a --net=br0 --ip=123.1.1.2 image_name

ok so one solution gives total isolation and is thus useless; the other solution gives some isolation but works and it's not clear why you need more isolation. seems like a no-brainer choice to me!

i don't know if that will be a problem. Everyone running in one docker subnet though is pretty open for everything since you basically never have to worry about -p :P

it's kind of a crazy concept honestly though

anyways driving home time

it is

it still feels like a massive hack to me, which is troubling

probably will feel less so by the time we get around to Vagrant integration and start torturing ourselves with VM automation ;p

bye

oh, vagrant, want to use that

Need me some vagrant

personal stuff, not work

@enderland I've heard people knock it but this book helped me a great deal in understanding the underlying concepts of how network protocols and ports et al work many years ago. I am far from a networking expert though, so take it with a grain of salt

amazon.com/Unix-Network-Programming-Volume-Networking/dp/…

nickcraver.com/blog/2016/02/17/…

holy crap

@JimmyHoffa Is that an expression of hope, or a statement of fact? Or does it compile to both? :D

@enderland that book is more largely POSIX focused than networking itself, but as a coder it helped me to understand how data is actually transmitted, what is transmitted and what the pieces of data going over the wire actually mean and how they're handled etc

though that was many years ago, and my networking knowledge is far from in depth, plausibly even not accurate.

I really should read something like that, not having a formal CS background is going to be annoying in stuff like that..

how have you all solved cross database join problems in the past?

for example, say you have a database you own and a database you don't own

you want to write a report

in your own database you store "prettification" data like a mapping of id to name

the database you don't own has id in it, but not name