The Whiteboard

7:02 PM

@gnat Well, that's not today's bin. This is

Dear people, I was one who posted the question "Which Book Should I Start to Learn C++ in a timely manner?". Could you help me out?

Jimmy Hoffa

aghhh I just found code throwing an exception that says "Data is not concurrent" and means "Data is not sequential"...

MathWanderer

I am very excited to learn C++ and very motivated too.

ratchet freak

C++ is too large and complex to learn in a "timely manner"

enderland

@MathWanderer what's your background programmingwise?

gnat

7:07 PM

@durron597 yeah that's better focused (I was too lazy to look for that "created" parameter). FWIW even that's not all today's bin - my flags summary suggests that about 10 questions were already deleted in last 23 hours. Not the best day today

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak s/in a timely manner//

Ixrec

would that include modern C++11/14 stuff?

durron597

@gnat If I had a diamond questions with a score of -3 or below would not last long on whatever site I had a diamond on.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec everytime someone says "Modern" C++, just remember they mean "C++ from inception to now with every pothole along the way", because none of it anywhere is actually restricted to any subset, the underlying language lacks enough libraries to restrict yourself as such. If they had a comprehensive "Modern" library platform that might be different...

durron597

SLSCI - Structured Low Score Cleanup Initiative

MathWanderer

7:09 PM

Unfortunately, I do not have any experience with programming.

Jimmy Hoffa

haha

don't learn C++

user55340

None at all?

Ixrec

I'm very aware that C++ does not force you to avoid the bad parts

MathWanderer

None....

ratchet freak

learn a simpler language and then branch out to C++

Ixrec

7:09 PM

yeah, C++ is not the best first language

at least start with C and then try C++

user55340

Not even a little bit of JavaScript, Python or Java?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec it does not let you avoid the bad parts, because you're stuck integrating with libraries full of them since there's no modern comprehensive library set.

enderland

I think he has to use C++ for his job stuff though

MathWanderer

Unfortunately, non...

user55340

4270

Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

This question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

MathWanderer

7:10 PM

My upcoming research in computer security and computation theory (starting at the end of August) will use C++

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa imo the difficulty of integrating libraries/building stuff in general is the worst part of modern C++

MathWanderer

I saw that post but I also observed a lot of opinions different from that

user55340

What do they expect you to know? Prerequisites for the class?

MathWanderer

What do you mean by "them"?

user55340

Instructors? Researchers?

Jimmy Hoffa

7:12 PM

@Ixrec and it's unavoidable. Thus the real problem with C++ even when clarified as "modern". I agree the modern subset is not terrible from a language standpoint, it's just that you're stuck interoperating with libraries that require you to do old style garbagely mixed up various shitbox things.

Ixrec

any language can be terrible when you have to work with legacy code

Jimmy Hoffa

also it's really hard not to shoot yourself in the foot, even highly skilled, vastly experienced C++ devs still struggle significantly with attempts not to shoot themselves in the foot.

user55340

C++ is like being thrown in the deep end of a submarine testing pool. No kiddie pool here. Lots of was to hurt yourself.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec and C++ demands that you do.

MathWanderer

My undergraduate research adviser told me that the mathematics background for me is the most important (I have extensive knowledge in abstract algebra and algebra).

And he told me that C++ should not be hard to learn...

Jimmy Hoffa

7:13 PM

@MathWanderer so go work in Haskell

Ixrec

clearly I've had slightly less negative experiences

Jimmy Hoffa

hah

C++ is crap, go work in Haskell if you're good at abstract maths

2

MathWanderer

He said pick any of the book and learn the C__

user55340

Then they may teach you enough of a subset in the class.

MathWanderer

C++

Jimmy Hoffa

7:14 PM

and it's also a huge pain to learn

Ixrec

the basics of writing a simple C++ program that, say, computes the fibonacci sequence is not hard to learn, no

learning C++ to the point that you can do anything useful (without screwing yourself over somehow) takes a LONG time

MathWanderer

Wow....

I feel so discouraged...should I then postpone my research?

Ixrec

imo it's nowhere near as terrible as some people make it out to be, but it's true that it's not a very good idea for a first language

user55340

I would actually suggest C instead and ignore the OO parts until you need them.

André

try project euler with C

enderland

7:15 PM

I basically started programming in C++

Ixrec

you should ask these people what they expect you to know before the research

ratchet freak

doing simple input/output and calculations can be learned in a few hours

Ixrec

and what kinds of programs they expect you to write

MathWanderer

He told me that he uses a lot of "C++ templates"

ratchet freak

ouch

user55340

7:15 PM

For a numerical class that uses C++, the pure C subset would be enough for 95%.

MathWanderer

?

Ixrec

if they're only after programs a few hundred lines long doing simple math, then that's certainly something you can learn in a reasonable time no matter what the language is

ratchet freak

that's one of the deeper ends of the C++ pool

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer C++ is just the wrong language for your task. Haskell, OCaml, Mathematica, Mercury, Clojure, F#, or numerous others would be far more amenable to the particular task you want.

user55340

Templates though - deep end.

MathWanderer

7:16 PM

Oh my god.........

Ixrec

templates are so deep they accidentally turned out to be their own turing complete language

André

@MathWanderer you should learn C++, doing math is fine on it

user55340

Sit down with your instructor and get some code samples now.

ratchet freak

@MichaelT as in Mariana trench deep

MathWanderer

I have no problem with the mathematics background.

Ixrec

7:17 PM

I still think everyone's making it sound much worse than it actually is

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer then don't do C++. Seriously, the languages I just listed are based on maths...

Ixrec

but template-heavy C++ is a strange and probably suboptimal choice for someone with no programming background

user55340

In college, we considered Bjorne to be synonymous with pain.

André

@Ixrec nods

Jimmy Hoffa

Haskell is all about using abstract algebras to create real world software

enderland

7:17 PM

@JimmyHoffa he probably doesn't have any choice in what language though to be fair

MathWanderer

Wow. The thing is that C++ is my research lab's main language.

enderland

59 secs ago, by Ixrec

I still think everyone's making it sound much worse than it actually is

user55340

It has its use.

Ixrec

it's entirely possible these programs are not actually that hard to learn even with the templates

enderland

I think too everyone here is assuming that the lab is using super complicated c++ code, too, it may be fairly simple

MathWanderer

7:18 PM

I am currently looking through "Accelerated C++" and "Jumping into C++" books and they look good.

Ixrec

as long as there's no manual memory management or multithreading nonsense it's probably doable

user55340

It just isn't a language that makes any attempt to be easy to understand nor prevent you from hurting yourself.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland he's told there's a lot of templates involved ...

MathWanderer

I also saw "Programming: Principle and Practice Using C++: and "C++ Primer", but they are so humongous to learn by the early Septyember

user55340

Different people learn with different books.

MathWanderer

7:20 PM

I understand that but I am afraid I might choose wrong book and have to start all over.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer haha yeah, C++ is that big. It's an enormous language

enderland

@JimmyHoffa oooooooooooooh

user55340

amazon.com/Practical-C-Programming-Second-Edition/dp/0596004192 - big Amazon one box.

Ixrec

we should probably assume the professors/researchers involved are not batshit insane and the programs he's expected to learn are not so complicated they require memorizing the C++ standard end-to-end to understand

@MathWanderer they are aware you have no programming background, right?

André

Pick the any C++ book
Solve Project Euler tasks
????
Profit

MathWanderer

7:21 PM

Dear Ixrec,

He does not expect it

user55340

That goes back to the "are there any prerequisites for the class"

enderland

@Ixrec aww you are ruining all the cynicism with your down to earth understanding

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT it's not a class I thought?

MathWanderer

But he expect me to become familiar with C++ by the time I start the research.

enderland

it's friday you gotta let people go crazy!

Ixrec

7:22 PM

@enderland not when there's a poor newbie trying to get help!

MathWanderer

what do you mean by "prerequisite"?

Ixrec

we can take all the jaded cynicism, but he must be shielded!

user55340

(Remember also - this is academic code...)

Ixrec

prerequisites = classes you need to have taken before or things you need to know before taking this particular class

ratchet freak

or knowledge you must have

Ixrec

7:22 PM

eg, algebra is a prerequisite for calculus; there's no point even trying to learn the latter if you haven't mastered the former yet

MathWanderer

Mathematics

Ixrec

that's a bit vague

user55340

For cs536 (compilers) I had to take cs367 (data structures) and cs354(machine code) before I could enroll in the class.

MathWanderer

since he said quite many CS students are having problem due to insufficient understanding of graduate courses in math.

Abstract algebra, combinatorics, linear algebra, graph theory

matrix theory

Ixrec

so no programming prerequisites?

MathWanderer

7:24 PM

Yes, he told me that I can pick up CS knowledge by myself

Ixrec

"CS knowledge"?

that's not the same thing as programming

Jimmy Hoffa

have fun with that

user55340

I believe you will be very challenged.

Jimmy Hoffa

If it's just a course and not research, I'm sure you'll be fine.

MathWanderer

I mean the data structures, algorithms, and machine learning

ratchet freak

7:24 PM

especially when you have to account for floating point rounding errors

Ixrec

I would simply ask them what book/tutorial they'd recommend using

ratchet freak

machine learning?

André

machine learning?

MathWanderer

Yes, I heard that from one of graduate student

André

that ain't walk at the park

ratchet freak

7:25 PM

in a month?

form nothing?

MathWanderer

Not machine learning

Only basic C++

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer O_O what on earth are you getting yourself into?? How did you get into this pickle? You have accepted to learn multiple years worth of data science in 2 months...

MathWanderer

They will teach others as time goes

ratchet freak

ah

user55340

Do you know the difference between a Dictionary and a List?

MathWanderer

7:26 PM

I wish I knew that

really

Jimmy Hoffa

"Algorithms, Data Structures, and Machine Learning" -> 2 solid years of study? 3?

Ixrec

this really seems like a conversation you need to have with the people you'll be learning/researching with, rather than us

MathWanderer

I asked them for a book recommendation, and they told me pick any book out there

André

then start reading a book today, any one is fine, try solve some simple math tasks.

user55340

You will likely not have sufficient background to work on or read any code you are given. Even with 2 months study.

MathWanderer

7:26 PM

My original question was to seek an introductory book on C++

but it seems there are so may

I see,

Ixrec

any programming language worth learning is gonna have lots of intro books, that's normal

user55340

amazon.com/… why so big Amazon?

ratchet freak

also check which C++ version they use (C++11,C++14 etc.)

Jimmy Hoffa

you should really speak with the professor, and clarify that he understands you have zero programming understanding

André

I think you should try anyway, you can always get help

MathWanderer

7:27 PM

C++ 11

Ixrec

that's a plus at least

MathWanderer

I see. Thank you very much for the book recommend to

user55340

@MathWanderer note: stay out of the lounge unless you are really desperate

Ixrec

lol

MathWanderer

I am not that desperate lol

user55340

7:31 PM

Just making sure.

MathWanderer

I was shocked to see that C++ indeed is a difficult langyuage

skill patrol

Have you looked through The Art of Programming by Knuth @MathWanderer?

Ixrec

hopefully the code in question is going to be a bunch of tiny programs that could've been project euler solutions

MathWanderer

That was easy book

in terms of mathematical presentation

enderland

@MathWanderer It lets you do whatever you want, this has advantages sometimes. but it also lets you do whatever you want by accident and... that's not good

ratchet freak

7:32 PM

math is easy, programming is a lot harder

user55340

Written in the days when CS was a subdicipline of math.

MathWanderer

Oh wait! I thought you man Knuth's Concrete Mathematics!

enderland

@ratchetfreak there are levels to math that are quite complex and theoretical too

MathWanderer

My apology.

I disagree with ratchet freak

Ixrec

the math required for CS is all pretty straightforward, the stuff actual math majors do gets really hard though

user55340

7:33 PM

The Art of Computer Programming

The Art of Computer Programming (sometimes known by its initials TAOCP) is a comprehensive monograph written by Donald Knuth that covers many kinds of programming algorithms and their analysis. Knuth began the project, originally conceived as a single book with twelve chapters, in 1962. The first three of what was then expected to be a seven-volume set were published in 1968, 1969, and 1973. The first installment of Volume 4 (a paperback fascicle) was published in 2005. The hardback volume 4A was published in 2011. Additional fascicle installments are planned for release approximately biannually...

André

Math is hard, programming itself is ok

ratchet freak

depends on your view point

Ixrec

programming stays ok if you're really good at it

the hard part is preventing it from ever becoming insanely hard

Jimmy Hoffa

math doesn't have the same quality attributes; it's right or wrong. Bad programming is easy, good programming is far harder than correct math.

MathWanderer

Thanks for the advice.

ratchet freak

7:34 PM

The challenge in programming is understanding that the computer will do exactly what you tell it to do. This rarely correlates with what you want it to do.

enderland

How much advanced math have you had @JimmyHoffa?

MathWanderer

Should I ask my adviser to perhaps tone down the programming aspect?

user55340

Write a program to convert a number to IEEE floating point correctly. After that you'll be ok.

Ixrec

how much math have you guys actually done? I'm fairly sure I hit a ceiling beyond which I'm not smart enough to go any farther

MathWanderer

I love math.

Ixrec

7:35 PM

@MathWanderer it's possible it's already toned down enough, we just don't know

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland ok well, math still has good and bad, but nowhere near the range of correct solutions that coding has..

MathWanderer

I told my adviser that it is my first time with the programming.

Ixrec

most of the fearmongering earlier is based on what it's like maintaining a real-world legacy C++ codebase

which is probably not what you'll be doing

ratchet freak

indeed

MathWanderer

And he told me that he will took that into a consideration, but he told me to learn C++.

user55340

7:36 PM

@Ixrec academic code...

enderland

@JimmyHoffa like I said, how much advanced math have you done? sure, basic algebra has a right/wrong answer, but a lot of higher level math/theory is not what you are describing

Ixrec

if they only want you to write <100 line programs, it almost doesn't matter what language you'll be doing it in

but we just don't know

you need to talk to them

enderland

like, not just the practical implementation math but the actual higher level theory math

MathWanderer

What do you mean by basic algebra? Is it like a basics of commutative algebra?

user55340

Here is some code from a grad student that is flawed. Fix it.

enderland

7:36 PM

@MathWanderer like middle school algebra, solving simple equations, etc

MathWanderer

I thought every CS people must learn the abstract algebra and linear algebra

Ixrec

I think we're talking about the arithmetic that most people call math, and the real math where you have to actually write proofs of everything

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland zilch; so perhaps I am off my head but it seems the theoretical stuff still is based around axioms and proofs that identify correctness of your theory...

MathWanderer

I thought those two principles are basis of algorithms?

user55340

Learn = get at least a D.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:37 PM

but really, I can't claim to know shit on that front

Ixrec

@MathWanderer abstract algebra and linear algebra have pretty much nothing to do with the fundamentals of computer algorithms

MathWanderer

I see.

user55340

I've used integral and derivatives once in 20 years. And that was on a hobby project.

Ixrec

there are a lot of useful algorithms for computing the stuff in linear algebra, but that's a different thing

MathWanderer

I hated calculus on real numbers...there is nothing fancy about the real numbers.

Ixrec

7:38 PM

computer science is basically it's own branch of mathematics

MathWanderer

I see. So I can pick any of the C++ book and start cracking?

Ixrec

where you look at the languages decidable by finite state machines versus turing machines

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_and_mathematics

Ixrec

then the time and space complexities of algorithms run on deterministic versus non-deterministic turing machines

and stuff like that

user55340

On the other hand I can tell you about float round off errors and data structures to put it off as long as possible.

Ixrec

7:39 PM

@MathWanderer since they said it doesn't matter, I would assume they're right

the links and lists you've been given certainly cover all the best ones

user55340

Do the first 50 I. Project Euler. Do code reviews on SE.

user55340

Shoot, first 100 given your target.

enderland

I would say that just writing code and learning through that is better than reading textbooks too, the theory matters but... you learn so much more by writing code, having issues, and resolving them

MathWanderer

I see. I just bought "Accelerated C++: Practical Programming by Example" and "Jumping into C++" as they have good reviews and relatively shorter than other books.

user55340

Eh maybe only 50. 50 to 100 are not mathy

ratchet freak

7:41 PM

and getting feedback on you code

Ixrec

@enderland in the long run yeah, but we're talking about learning the basics before he starts doing that in his course

as long as he tries to do some of the examples in whichever book he picks, it should be fine

MathWanderer

Dear enderland, thank you very much for your advice.

durron597

@psr Did you see my self answer to that MSE post?

MathWanderer

And Ixrec too.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer alpheccar.org/content/74.html

MathWanderer

7:42 PM

Category theory. I learned that during my advanced algebra course.

Jimmy Hoffa

though you may be forced to work in C++, if you like Abstract Algebras, Haskell is the language you'll enjoy looking into.

MathWanderer

Thank you!

Ixrec

I tried reading about category theory once...I didn't get very far

MathWanderer

I will look into Haskell too.

ratchet freak

knowing a bit of numerical analysis will help

MathWanderer

7:43 PM

I recommend "Algebra" by MacLane and Birkhoff

It uses category theory to explain the algebra

psr

@durron597 yes

Ixrec

@MathWanderer as in the rings, groups, fields kind of algebra or the factoring polynomials kind of algebra?

user55340

Tell everyone on the research group to switch to Haskell because isotropic catahomomorphisms will solve the problem when wrapped in a monad.

MathWanderer

Both. The book uses a category theory to explain them.

Ixrec

rofl

enderland

7:44 PM

Or, everyone will quit ;)

MathWanderer

Is Haskell similar to C++?

Jimmy Hoffa

342

A: What does "coalgebra" mean in the context of programming?

Algebras I think the place to start would be to understand the idea of an algebra. This is just a generalization of algebraic structures like groups, rings, monoids and so on. Most of the time, these things are introduced in terms of sets, but since we're among friends, I'll talk about Haskell t...

Ixrec

it couldn't be more different

Jimmy Hoffa

^-- this is what haskellers do

Ixrec

Haskell is about as far from C++ as you can possibly get in terms of programming languages

Jimmy Hoffa

7:44 PM

@MathWanderer not even remotely. Haskell is Math

MathWanderer

Is it more friendly like Python?

Ixrec

I would love to do serious programming work in Haskell someday

ratchet freak

@Ixrec well there are the estoric languages

Ixrec

nope, it's crazy hard in a totally different way

a mathier way

MathWanderer

I see. That is good.

Ixrec

7:45 PM

Haskell is definitely more internally consistent

user55340

You might like apl. It's hard in another way.

MathWanderer

I am really excited to start learning C++

APL, I will take that into my mind palace too

Ixrec

and it's not a crazy popular language with decades of history, so most of the cruft C++ has accumulated it won't have

MathWanderer

My adviser told me that learning the basics of C++ should not take too long. Perhaps a month or two,

user55340

0

A: Shorten text with Run Length Encoding

APL (24) ,↑{(⍕⍴⍵),⊃⍵}¨B⊂⍨B≠¯1⌽B←⍞

MathWanderer

7:46 PM

But seeing that "template" thing is in the deeper end, it makes me worry

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer no - it's literally math. More or less. Look at that answer I just linked above almost all of the code examples in it are Haskell

Ixrec

it depends on what one means by "basics", but yeah you can get to the point where you can write small programs in that kind of time

I would say basic template stuff is achievable in that time

user55340

APL (programming language)

APL (named after the book A Programming Language) is a programming language developed in the 1960s by Kenneth E. Iverson. Its central datatype is the multidimensional array. It uses a large range of special graphic symbols to represent most operators, giving very concise code. It has been an important influence on the development of concept modeling, spreadsheets, functional programming, and computer math packages. It has also inspired several other programming languages. It is still used today for certain applications. == History == The mathematical notation for manipulating arrays which developed...

ratchet freak

using well-built templated classes is simple

gnat

@durron597 that would not be really fair I am afraid. Score per se is not yet an indication of question being worthy of deletion. The idea of delaying cleanup is to give community chance to improve the question (not asker, they can see and edit their deleted questions). To decide on deletion, especially when one is a moderator, they need to check it and make sure that community can't help here...

Nick Alexeev

7:48 PM

@Ixrec In some sense, C++ is like Latin to other European languages.

ratchet freak

creating templates is a minefield

gnat

...That today's bin, I just checked them all. Unsalvageable :(

Ixrec

@NickAlexeev I think you're on to something there

MathWanderer

I see. So using the template is not that hard, but creating/revising one is hard.

Jimmy Hoffa

en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Category_theory

Ixrec

7:49 PM

it's more that, like everything in C++, it can get ridiculous when you dig into it

the simplest use of a template is just writing a function that can take any type for which a + b works, instead of writing five separate functions for each numeric type

Nick Alexeev

@Ixrec Anything worth doing can get absurd when you dig into it. IMHO.

Ixrec

when you start writing template specializations and relying on SFINAE and metaprogramming...that's stuff you don't want to touch without more experience

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer the reality is everyone who has decided they're good at C++ immediately switches to proclaiming it's simplicity. Science hasn't yet identified the cause for this, when all evidence suggests it's nearly impossible.

MathWanderer

a+b is a form of homomorphic group?

ratchet freak

simplest use of a template is using a std::vector<int>

Ixrec

7:50 PM

@NickAlexeev yes, but C++ more so than most

Nick Alexeev

@Ixrec C++ is Assembly in OO clothing.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa brain damage.

Telastyn

templates isn't so bad. At least that seems hard. The problem with C++ is all of the basic simple looking stuff that is really undefined behavior and only happens to work due to random chance.

Ixrec

@NickAlexeev what does that make C? =)

ratchet freak

technically it's C in OO and template and ...

MathWanderer

7:51 PM

Wow, I really fell pathetic.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec Assembly unabridged.

ratchet freak

and C is assembly in readable format

MathWanderer

I fell really discouraged

Nick Alexeev

@Ixrec C is assembly in procedural clothing.

MathWanderer

Jimmy Hoffa, could you explain once again.

Ixrec

7:51 PM

@MathWanderer don't be, they're probably not expecting the kind of mastery we're talking about here

MathWanderer

?

I see.

user143252

hello, i need help for a java program ....... programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/290051/…

Ixrec

if you approach C++ with the right attitude, you can get what you need out of it without the kind of nightmares described above

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer Prepare for blood, sweat and tears.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer haha I was joking about the C++ thing above- it's a course you're expected to work on C++ in so go pick it up for what you can and hope for the best. You'll probably be totally fine - the teacher knows you don't know C++. It'll be painful and such but meh. Haskell I keep mentioning because it's a language by mathematicians largely used for research into type algebras

Ixrec

7:53 PM

by that I mean don't expect it to "just work" the way you expect by default, pretty much every C++ feature you try to use you should read about carefully and try to understand thoroughly

Jimmy Hoffa

If you've done good in school, with complex courses, this is just another complex course you'll likely be fine in.

MathWanderer

Thank you very much for all of your advice!

Ixrec

the best part about C++ is that you can literally do anything with it, and it gives you a huge, HUGE set of tools with which to do anything

Nick Alexeev

@Ixrec The good thing is that with C++ it's possible to get to the bottom of things. With higher level languages, the bottom is obscured.

Ixrec

but "literally anything" includes a lot of stuff you don't want to do

yep, that too

MathWanderer

7:55 PM

Should I learn C++ by tackling the basics tasks (simple programming) rather than by reading and doing page one to last page of the books?

Ixrec

well, you can't write a basic program without reading a little bit

onTheInternet

Yeah i would like to know the answer to that as well

Telastyn

practice is always better with programming

Ixrec

definitely don't rea the book cover to cover

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer Take a course.

Telastyn

7:55 PM

almost everything else too.

Ixrec

read a little bit, then write some actual programs and prove to yourself you can use the stuff you just read

then read the next chapter

MathWanderer

I would like to take a course but my current schedule is quire heavy...

durron597

@gnat I fear you are correct meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/299561/…

Ixrec

most books will have some suggested exercises you can try

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer Read-up. Get by with self-learning. Make time to take a proper course (online perhaps).

MathWanderer

7:56 PM

I see. I almost fell into mistake of feeling a responsibility of reading the book from start to last, like my mathematics books.

André

@MathWanderer maybe some simple online tutorial for a more "hands-on" experience udemy.com/free-learn-c-tutorial-beginners/?dtcode=WpNq2Ux3i2hS

MathWanderer

Thankd!

Ixrec

@MathWanderer if this was an actual programming course, you probably would want to get to the end eventually

but in theory you'll just be learning the bits needed to go do useful math stuff

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer Of course, you can date a C++ programmer. This sort of thing always helps get proficient with languages. (I learned verbal English that way.)

MathWanderer

I see. Regarding to the books I bought "Accelerated C++: Practical Programming by Example" and "Jumping into C++", first one teaches C++ through tasks. I lije that.

Ixrec

7:59 PM

programmers don't talk in programming languages though

MathWanderer

I always thought that the online courses are not good, but perhaps it is time for me to change my mind.

ratchet freak

depends on the course

Ixrec

they're usually not as good for getting a genuine understanding of the language

user55340

Try it. Some people learn that way. Others don't.

Ixrec

but for learning how to get a hello world program to actually compile and run in five minutes, they're pretty decent

MathWanderer

8:01 PM

I see.

Ixrec

I'm trying to think if there's some aspect of math that has the same "dangerous but infinitely powerful" vibe that C++ has

but if there is I don't think I ever got to it

MathWanderer

How about the computational theory.

?

The real name is called computational complexity theory

Ixrec

hm, why do you say that?

that's one of the few branches I have any knowledge of

Jimmy Hoffa

@NickAlexeev you learned verbal english from a C++ programmer?

enderland

is it bad if I want to script the process to create user accounts for a website that requires a million clicks to create new users?

Nick Alexeev

8:07 PM

@JimmyHoffa No, I've learned verbal English from a biologist. (By then, I have already had a decent command of C++, which I have studied the hard way.)

Ixrec

back in 10-20 minutes

MathWanderer

The CCT is basically a interconnected field where the main focus is to how to compute the seemingly not-computable problems and in an efficient manner. I do not exactly know your vibe, but the CCT is beautiful and complex in a sense that you must investigate how to bring the very complex computation task to simpler format

So from what I gather around this long post, C++ is possible to be learned. Right?

Jimmy Hoffa

no lunch...no coffee... just 2 big documents and one resolved Java bug, and in 50 minutes I can go home to my weekend, before traffic get's bad

MathWanderer

By the way, I use Mac Pro. Will C++ run smoothly on Mac too?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer yep

MathWanderer

8:09 PM

I see. My plan is to read little bits of the books I bought and focus on little programming.

Do they assume any programming experience from the prospective readers?

André

@user143252 gist.github.com/andrezimmermann/80b572becf936a1323d3

Jimmy Hoffa

@MathWanderer depends on the book

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer Look, I have bad news for you: there is no Royal Road to C++. Prepare to be buried for 6 to 12 moths as you grok through C++. When your adviser says 1-2 months, he is simply stringing you along, because you don't seem to know better.

MathWanderer

I see. I bought "Accelerated C++: Practical Programming by Example" by Andrew Koenig et al., and "Jumping into C++" by Alex Allain.

Nick Alexeev

@MathWanderer goodluck

MathWanderer

8:15 PM

I understand there is no royal road to C++ as there is no such thing for math too.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT if I get the seconds since 1970, and daylight savings time hits and I get it again, will it be a lower number the second time around, or is it accurate on the duration regardless of the reoccurring hours?

MathWanderer

My plan was to pick the basics (if there is) of C++ and jump directly to my research project and learn more about C++ from there.

Jimmy Hoffa

(in java - Gregorian calendar, or Joda time)

enderland

Ok crowd sourcing a question, have any of you used a framework/language to automate browser activity? I'm wondering if I can just use a basic plugin or extension in Chrome to do it

I have to do like 20 clicks to create a user account and they are always the same basic path... might be nice to automate this since it's a huge PITA

André

@JimmyHoffa It's accurate, it is always expressed in UTC.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:18 PM

@enderland there's a variety of paramterizable web test recorders

@André does UTC not have DST?

ratchet freak

I've used greasemonkey to do some small things

André

derp you're right, let me research

psr

@enderland Selenium. There are others I can't think of at the moment.

Protractor.

gnat

@durron597 good example. Current proliferation of clear cut garbage tends to obscure the simple fact that some closed and voted down questions are in fact salvageable. I am lucky to have an antidote to that in SO close queue where I practice in Skipping such questions every day :)

MathWanderer

11001 10111 10001 10001 00101 01011 10001 111101 10100 10001 00101

Jimmy Hoffa

8:19 PM

@enderland I've used visual studios, I've heard people suggest fiddlers a lot, I used SoapUI before. To script it in browser get's trickier, selenium is what people use as a headless browser for it often because to "automatically control a browser" is an enormous security threat, so browsers have tons of isolation techniques ensuring that doesn't happen mailiciously

MathWanderer

11010 11101 11001 10010 10010

enderland

@JimmyHoffa yeah, fortunately for everything smart about Chrome, there's IE!

@psr I was looking at that, not sure if I want to do something that complex or not..

MathWanderer

Try to crack that code by ysing cryptozoology.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland just google fiddler web test recorder or soapui or greasemonkey

MathWanderer

00010 11001 110001 00001 100101 11111

psr

8:23 PM

@enderland It's not that horrible (though driving it from javascript involves a lot of asynch event handling). Find the element (the API doesn't give you CSS selectors or full DOM access, but if you have something like an ID you can find it - protractor has better selectors) then the API gives you a click method. I think protractor is better at automatically waiting before doing the next click.

MathWanderer has moved to machine language very proficiently.

André

@JimmyHoffa, reading up a bit, I think you're right, it will output the same, the miliseconds from the epoch is UTC and isn't aware of the daylight saving time.

enderland

@psr oh neat it lets you script in multiple languages

I'm going to install it I guess and play with it

psr

At work we switched from selenium to protractor, but I haven't been much involved in either.

enderland

@psr selenium is "approved" for our internal use I guess

but their IDE is... version 1.9 instead of the current 2.9

ugh

MathWanderer

I was joking.

I am waiting for my interview.

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