The Whiteboard

durron597

12:21 AM

@psr according to whom? ;)

Robert Harvey

OK, another technical interview in the can. Some of the questions:

> What is a delegate, and what would you use it for?

> When would you use a base class, and when would you use an interface?

> Explain DI and its uses.

> Why would you use TDD?

> What is the MVVM pattern, and what are its advantages?

> What is reflection, and how is it used?

@whatsisname In the sense that you can write Windows Store applications in HTML5, CSS3 and Javascript now, so why would you ever do it in XAML?

user55340

12:41 AM

Delete votes please:

user55340

-3

A: 2 Dimensional Arrays in C++

well explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwell explainedwel...

Duga

Since this question is about architecture and not about writing code, it would be better suited on Programmers.SE. I'm not sure how welcoming they will be of the subjectiveness, though. — chrisaycock 48 secs ago

user55340

1:08 AM

Given that Anna finished off the delete on that, and the user is no more... I suspect that there was some bat signal to the SE types for that particular user.

Robert Harvey

1:33 AM

Interesting thought process here, in the comments:

-1

Q: Software license that does not permit modification but is open source (requires source code be provided)

I am writing an application, and I want it to be open source, but I don't want users to be able to legally remove the advertisements or the donation request generator from the source code. I want it to have a software license that requires an application's source code to be available for inspecti...

Pretty much the though process of every noob who says "My question is on-topic."

No. Not every deployed application requires a coffee. Every deployed application requires a license. The license is part of the application. The coffee is not part of the application. — Fakey Anonymous 54 secs ago

Well, he got me there. Although...

Duga

2:01 AM

I think you should ask this on http://programmers.stackexchange.com. StackOverflow is more for debugging than questions of this type, whereas Programmers is for code design, etc. — Ignaus 30 secs ago

user55340

3:13 AM

@ThomasOwens btw... STCI isn't completely cleaned for a tag until the locked questions are gone too as those can still be used (the tag isn't gone)

user55340

For example, children - but if you go to the search with the right parameters you find:

user55340

34

Q: At what age could I reasonably teach my children about programming?

In case my child would be interested in what I am doing... At what age could I reasonably teach my child what programming is? What is your experience with teaching them to program if they want to? Are there great articles about this?

learning experience children

user55340

85

Q: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

Have to do a talk at Career Day at my kid's school & looking for ideas on how to make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old.

career-development education children

user55340

Unless, that is, special action is taken to get SE to blacklist the tag despite its existence.

durron597

@MichaelT You should add a post to the STCI question to this affect.

user55340

3:15 AM

Personally, I find that career day rather... ok, its got some high votes... but crap answers.

user55340

6

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

Tell them Bill Gates is a computer programmer and is a billionaire.

user55340

5

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

Teach her Logo. Kids get a kick out of that and it really explains programming and what is done well.

user55340

4

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

Talk about video games.

user55340

0

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

let them do python

user15026

....yikes.

user55340

3:16 AM

0

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

There's a language designed for kids. Turtle, I think it's called.

durron597

@AshleyNunn this.

user55340

I should point out that until the locked questions for a tag are de-tagged, the tag will live on. Unless the tag is specifically blacklisted by SE. For example, this says children is gone but it won't be deleted (and can still be used) until the locked questions that use it have that tag removed or are deleted also. That then goes to the mods - are those questions you want to keep? change to ontopic tags (that aren't part of STCI)? or get SE to blacklist? — MichaelT 8 secs ago

user55340

@AshleyNunn If you note the python one... there are probably delete votes on it. There was a comment:

user55340

This does not provide an answer to the question. To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post - you can always comment on your own posts, and once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post. — Matthieu Sep 7 '12 at 16:21

user55340

There's also basic punctuation to clean up on some:

user55340

3:22 AM

1

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

For those that have read The Last Lecture, you could show the 3d programming environment,Alice, here. I'm not new to programming but still think 3d animation is pretty neat.

user55340

And the problem of dead links:

user55340

2

A: Career Day: how do I make "computer programmer" sound cool to 8 years old?

Show some demos from Greenfoot! The kids might not understand the code but with some interaction, they'll get the idea.... Here's an introductory article For the uninitiated, here is a quote: Greenfoot is a joint project funded by Sun Microsystems and implemented at the University of K...

user15026

@MichaelT Ah yes, the pro-forma comment.

user55340

This is part of why I believe that polls make for really bad historical locks and don't age well at all... and can't be curated to try to at least put some makeup on those wrinkles as they show up.

user15026

It's one of those things where they can work sometimes, but sometimes, it's totally okay to kill your darlings, and it is something that should happen more often than it should

durron597

3:31 AM

High views is good SEO.

user55340

The new California porn (yes, its safe for work)

user55340

@durron597 High views is indicative of past SEO. It only helps SEO if we have people linking to it inbound. Consider if that is the type of impression we wish to give to users who are coming into the site about the types of things we have on the site (remember, new users don't know / understand / care about historical locks)

user55340

37

A: What is a historical lock, and what is it used for?

What is a Historical Lock? A historical lock is a mechanism by which moderators can mark posts as historical artifacts. Questions which are historically locked feature the following post notice: locked by Moderator♦ Mar 16 at 20:01 This question exists because it has historical signi...

user55340

> Questions can be historically locked when:

1. The post is Off-Topic or Not Constructive, and
2. The post is stellar, in spite of its off-topic nature, and
3. There are a large number of views, upvotes and inbound links on the post, and
4. The post is contentious; i.e. it has been closed and reopened at least once, or deleted and undeleted at least once

user55340

I would draw your attention to #2 and consider #3 with a critical eye.

durron597

4:24 AM

@MichaelT Hm. Progs has more locked posts than superuser.

user55340

4:42 AM

@durron597 there was a fair bit of content that was locked to try to hang on to some of the better content of the npr days. Some of it may need to be revisited.

whatsisname

@RobertHarvey: writing a windows app in HTML5, CSS3 and JS would be even more awful than xaml/wpf

Robert Harvey

5:00 AM

@whatsisname That's too bad. It's just about the only way to write an app that will run on any device.

whatsisname

"run on any device" is a terrible concept to begin with

see windows 8 and unity

overexchange

@RobertHarvey actually I donot have SDLC expeerience so am going thru this series

Robert Harvey

It's not a bad start. I might go through it myself as a refresher.

I never actually had any formal training in object-oriented design. I just kept learning things and getting better.

overexchange

Am improving my programming by following cs61A fall 2012 course + this OOD series, then apply for a job as java devlpr

This OOD series is from the author's experience when he worked in apple.

Tough among two is completing Cs 61A. Lot of assignments for each topic.

One of my recent assignment...

3

Q: Assigning sentiment to each tweet

Below assignment is taken from here. Introduction In this project, you will develop a geographic visualization of twitter data across the USA. You will need to use dictionaries, lists, and data abstraction techniques to create a modular program. Below is phase 1 of this project. ...

python python3 twitter natural-language-proc

After I complete these two, I would go for "livelessons java concurrency" by Douglas Schmidt from safarionline

I think this would suffice for rest of my career.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:32 AM

@psr yeah I hate that; talk about pointless. I remember one meeting in my current job where they have like 10 people, DBAs, QA, PM, UI, and back office, all spent ~an hour going over the details to come up with an estimate for facebook integration, and it was taken back the business who said "No let's not do that" then 2 months later came back and said "Ok we want it, but have it done by X" which was like a third of our estimate...

the whole estimation process is such a waste more often than not

mikehadlow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/heisenberg-developers.html

Duga

5:45 AM

This question would be in subject closer to something for Programmers.Stackexchange, but it'd be too broad even then because the architectural pattern depends on the use-case. No point in writing Pipes and Filters when your app is about storing to-dos. — EpicPandaForce 51 secs ago

Ixrec

6:27 AM

@JimmyHoffa what happened next? did everyone manage to do some minimal/incomplete version of the feature in 1/3 the time, or did business need to be reasoned with somehow?

Yannis

6:59 AM

Hey all, spam flagging an answer posted in 2012 is a bit unreasonable. The answer, although a bit spammy for today's standards, was acceptable back then. Don't forget that spam flags may carry a rep penalty, and also feed SE's anti spam mechanism with data. No reason to put the link in the answer in a blacklist somewhere when it was posted in good faith.

Duga

7:55 AM

This question might be more on-topic at Programmers, although you should emphasize "documented" or "official" more. — Bergi 38 secs ago

Yannis

10:06 AM

0

Q: Why is PHP written in C and not in C++?

Why is PHP written in C and not in C++? Python, for example, is written in 1989, when just C was standardized. PHP was released in 1995. Why was used not C++, but C?

c++ php c

29

Q: Why is Python written in C and not in C++?

In Python's tutorial one can read that Python's original implementation is in C; On the other hand, the Python implementation, written in C, (...) I'm very curious why was Python written in C and not C++? I'd like to know the reasoning behind this decision and I'm looking for references to ...

python c++ history implementations

F'ing broken windows.

Duga

1:03 PM

Not a programming question per se... migrate to programmers.stackexchange.com? — C8H10N4O2 21 secs ago

@C8H10N4O2 This question would be closed on Programmers. We do not provide support for software or services. — Thomas Owens 53 secs ago

durron597

STCI status: learning 75 open questions

@gnat Nope, it's gone. I got helpful.

Thomas Owens

1:18 PM

w00t. Can we do this by the end of the day on Friday? Although I'll probably do some this weekend.

user41796

@gnat See this comment from Yannis for what I'm guessing as the reason why it was declined.

durron597

1:34 PM

@MichaelT Relevant to your interests

@GlenH7 @Yannis How do you know it was posted in good faith? Surviving for three years does not mean it was in good faith even then.

user41796

@durron597 I didn't claim it was posted in good faith. :-)

user41796

Merely connected the two comments.

durron597

@ThomasOwens Doing what I can; I'm out of CVs within 6 hours of 0000 UTC every day.

@ThomasOwens Though what we really need from you is handling the "zero open" category, more than the open questions category. Hopefully some of the other mods can help too.

user55340

@durron597 many of those are locked rejected migrations - not historical locks.

user41796

But Yannis' concerns regarding side effects of marking that as spam are valid. The answer needed to be deleted, but I'm not sure a spam hammer was the right hammer to use. Probably would have been better with a custom mod message.

durron597

1:37 PM

> I know that not all of these are historical locks; many (most? all?) of them are rejected migrations. That's no reason to keep them.

user55340

And those are able to be flagged. And I often do do when I find them.

durron597

@MichaelT That's a good point

user55340

I've got a mse post on letting 10k delete them.

durron597

Would be a good way to get Marshal.

user55340

6

Q: Allow 10k to vote to delete on locked rejected migrations

While wandering through P.SE, sometimes a close vote finds its way onto a question from SO that was migrated back in '11 and it gets closed. When this happens: The question is locked All answers from SO are deleted This, in of itself, isn't a bad thing, but it is locked now. This means that...

feature-request vote-to-delete locked-questions migration-rejection

durron597

1:39 PM

@MichaelT Sounds like we should have a M.SE separate question about roomba-ing these questions.

@ThomasOwens would you prefer to wade into these sorts of questions on your own or have users like me flag them?

user55340

I don't think the roomba is appropriate for them. There are things from the early days that should be switched to a historic lock.

Thomas Owens

I'll go through those, but not as STCI. Unless they are tagged with an STCI tag, of course.

durron597

@ThomasOwens Ok, I'm flagging some of them now.

user55340

The historical locked questions with 50...0 votes and 5000...0 views are the ones we should review with a critical eye. Include anon feedback as that is the best indicator of Google relevance.

Thomas Owens

@durron597 No need to flag.

Unless they are really terrible awful and need to be handled right this second.

Which shouldn't be any of them.

Duga

1:49 PM

@Bergi - In it's present form, this question would be closed as too broad on Programmers. It's a poll looking for multiple answers, and that format does not do well with the StackExchange Q&A format. — GlenH7 52 secs ago

user41796

WPF is alive and well, and will remain so for thick desktop apps.
WinRT was DOA. End of story. It was meant for their tablet.
HTML5 (which means latest JavaScript, CSS, and HTML) is the de facto winner over XAML style UI work. It's the de facto for web apps and thin apps.

durron597

@ThomasOwens It occurred to me that if I flag, you don't have to handle them all, the work can be distributed over all the mods

user55340

None are so awful they can't wait - they're locked. Don't worry about new answers or activity.

Thomas Owens

But don't forget what flags are for.

They are for things that must be handled immediately.

user41796

@durron597 Unless you flag as "Bleh, leave this for Thomas"

Thomas Owens

1:50 PM

If it can wait, start gathering them on that Meta post as an answer.

durron597

@GlenH7 Which I haven't been.

> This old question has low views, low score, is blatantly off topic, and is locked so only 20ks can delete it, but does not meet the roomba deletion criteria. Please delete it!

user55340

@GlenH7 "bleh. Robert said leave this for Yannis"

Thomas Owens

I'll handle these flags, but please don't flag more unless they need immediate mod attention.

durron597

Okay, I've only flagged 10 of them.

okay.

user55340

Not even 20k can delete it.

durron597

1:51 PM

@ThomasOwens The problem is, there are over 100 of them

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I think your Meta post called attention to the problem.

I don't think it's a super huge deal, but cleanup can happen.

user55340

The locked rejected - likely purge with fire from mods learning Haskell.

user55340

The historical locked crap (the children question from last night) should probably be brought up on meta in small batches to see if there is any redeeming qualities.

durron597

@MichaelT agreed

Yannis

@gnat That's weird, all flags there show up as helpful.

durron597

1:54 PM

@ThomasOwens I added the fact that 15% of these questions are just migration signposts; I edited the search to remove those from the results.

user55340

Lots of things were locked from npr days that haven't aged well at all. They might be remade to a spectacular question if they can be curated some, but otherwise fail to meet any semblance of current (within the past 2 years) quality standards.

Yannis

@durron597 "Here's a site where you can find developers to mentor" is a valid answer to "How do I find young developers to mentor". Not to mention that the answerer clearly discloses his affiliation with the site.

@durron597 What happened to your flag there? It shows up as helpful for me, same as @gnat's.

durron597

@Yannis My flag was helpful

user41796

@Yannis Did it convert to helpful when the answer was deleted?

Yannis

Ok. The one weird thing with @gnat's flag is that it doesn't show a deletion user (== who cleared it).

user55340

2:00 PM

There were two separate deletion acts - answer and question. Either could have handled the flag.

Yannis

@GlenH7 That's how it's supposed to work. Unless a mod declines the flag before deleting the answer. Which I'm fairly sure I didn't (and if I did, by mistake, it'd show in the post's flagging history).

Thomas Owens

Honestly, a lot of the historical locked questions would likely be made into good tag wikis. If tag wikis were made good.

Yannis

Ah. A shiny new diamond.

user55340

I'd love a wiki / blog migration option for certain types of questions. Especially if they didn't have to be tags.

user55340

@Yannis trying to catch up to ChrisF?

Yannis

2:05 PM

@MichaelT Even if I do catch up with Chris, he got his the hard way.

(but no, three's more than enough)

user55340

@Yannis just remember to run for SO next time.

durron597

@MichaelT I'm sure his sub-2k rep there will go over really well.

Yannis

I have neither the rep nor the patience for it.

user55340

As long as you come in ahead of Evan, it's a win.

user55340

2:44 PM

(Do note the implication by @Yannis that moderating Politics is easy)

durron597

It's that time again: poll the room about whether a learning question can be saved! Here it is...

Also, can this one be saved?

user55340

Retag to machine learning.

user55340

Too broad. Difficult.

overexchange

@ThomasOwens For front end web development using javascript, Do developers follow the same UML->OOD->coding approach?

André

@overexchange most of the time is just "I need a product form now"

overexchange

2:49 PM

Because companies ask for front end developers but not software developers for UI design.

user55340

Uml and JavaScript in the same breath? Heh. I've yet to meet a JavaScript dev who cares about class design.

durron597

@MichaelT Yeah, out of CVs now though.

user55340

Some may, but they are the framework devs - not the daily grind devs.

overexchange

As I currently see lot of demand for angular framework in CANADA IT market. such job requirements does not care about regular SDLC approach

user55340

So? You are writing in angular. Not angular itself.

user55340

2:54 PM

If you are a coder on the angular team employed by Google, then you care about class design. If you are a dev using it... Not so much.

overexchange

ok. So, It is implied that front end developer has to think nothing more than writing in angular

user55340

My statement is simply that I've yet to meet a JavaScript dev who cares about the purity and ideals of design in their code. They tend to be much more pragmatic about it.

user41796

@MichaelT Easier for them to keep things small, and then throw it out once something radically new is required

user41796

And with the rate that javascript frameworks turn over, there is some wisdom in just knocking things out with an eye towards throwing it away in a year or two.

user55340

in my own dabbling, I've yet to even need things more than passing functions to the framework.

user55340

3:03 PM

Grab some json. Modify the dom. Repeat.

Thomas Owens

@overexchange Never really did front-end web development. But I see a few problems with that. First, the creation of models is design. Saying that UML (or any modeling notation) goes into object-oriented design (or any kind of design) is wrong. You just do design using various modeling notation. For front-end work, I suspect that design also includes models and mockups of the UI.

whatsisname

that's because everything in the web front-end is a wretched travesty

Yannis

@MichaelT btw, the one time Evan showed up on Politics, I ended up taking his side. That said, I won't deny I'm not glad he hasn't showed up since.

whatsisname

there is no room for any sort of purity or ideals

Thomas Owens

Second, software development is an iterative process. Anything else really doesn't work in an actual production environment.

user55340

3:05 PM

I am a JavaScript Programmer

►

user41796

@Yannis The inner conflict that must have created for you

Yannis

I won't deny the thought of letting his question get closed/downvoted to oblivion didn't cross my mind.

durron597

@Yannis Link?

Thomas Owens

Finally, please don't constrain yourself to "UML" and "OOD". If you wanted to talk about abstract process steps in software development, I think the highest level you can look at is "analysis" (requirements, architecture/design), "implementation" (code, unit test), and "integration" (integration, integration testing, system testing, acceptance testing, release).

Yannis

@durron597 Nothing to see there, everything interesting has either been cleaned up or is lost in old chat transcripts.

overexchange

3:09 PM

long way t go

@ThomasOwens Interesting point is regular SDLC cycle requires industry experience(working under architects), but adapting front end dev just requires learning angular and develop some wiki as part of exercise.

Thomas Owens

@overexchange Nothing requires working under architects.

I've worked at places that don't have architect as a formal role.

overexchange

I mean design phase experience in production envi

Thomas Owens

What you're describing, to me, is the difference between being an engineer and being a programmer.

user55340

There tends to be much less discipline in front end devs. Something about a very large pool of workers with the driving force being time to deployment for the app rather than long term maintenance.

Thomas Owens

@overexchange If you're writing code, you need to do some level of analysis and design. Even if it's not formalized. How else do you know what your inputs are, what your outputs are, and what the user interface looks like?

user55340

3:17 PM

Sites are more likely to change their look and feel before the broken design of the code gets too ugly... So it all gets thrown out in a year or so.

overexchange

I mean construction_workers/painter/plumbers are switching their careers as front end dev by taking 3 month course on treehouse or frontendmasters

user55340

Why spend a week on design if your competition will get it done a week faster, and you'll be completely replacing the code in a year anyway?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec Everybody worked on it until the deadline; it wasn't finished because it couldn't be done in that time period, and the business decided not to do it then because it would take too long, so the whole effort was an utter waste. The decisions businesses make are so utterly baffling; seriously I think sometimes we are far too buffered from the manner with which most folk think through work stuff just by being surrounded by folks who are unerringly rational and logical in coding

user55340

@JimmyHoffa brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/…

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT yes I'm familiar with the thermocline of truth, wasn't the issue here

(has been, but it wasn't in that particular case)

overexchange

3:22 PM

@ThomasOwens yes architect position is no more valid in companies like Google, I think design pattern approach is one reason

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens this is analysis but not design necessarily; you speak of requirements and use case analysis. Design (outside of UX) refers usually to something that's separate from behaviours and more based on technical desires

"I desire the inputs from this feature to be easily consumable by varied services that may be added post-hoc; so I'll design it such that the inputs portion feeds data to a broadcasting message queue technology" <-- technical desire causes design decisions

Robert Harvey

10 hours ago, by overexchange

I think this would suffice for rest of my career.

overexchange

I understand the difference between programmer and engineer. But why do we need another role name developer?

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey fail.

Robert Harvey

Overly optimistic.

@overexchange Job titles don't matter. They don't matter at all.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:27 PM

@overexchange pfleh, don't feed the trolls. There truly are 4 relevant values for "coder" "programmer" "engineer" whatever in our industry. The people constantly trying to identify these meaningful segregations by title are just trying to fit us into little boxes in an arbitrary fashion so they can more easily evaluate us without actually paying any attention to our skills or accomplishments.

overexchange

For immigration they matter djei.ie/labour/workpermits/…

immigration officers literally follow the names amidst processing. If the name matches then they go thru roles and responsibilities

user41796

@JimmyHoffa They ought to reflect differing levels of understanding and skill. Note the emphasized word there.

Robert Harvey

@overexchange If they do matter, an interested company will just adjust their job titles to follow immigration's convention.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 they are used as tools by non-technical people to exercise control, that's all. Classify us so they know what ruleset to use in commanding us.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Engineer is a very specific thing. It's a level of education and a professional responsibility. I don't see a distinction between "programmer", "coder", and "developer". But the title of "engineer" is special.

brb grabbing food.

user55340

3:30 PM

My job title is Software Specialist.

overexchange

@MichaelT you are not eligible to migrate to Ireland):

user55340

(Specialist has meaning in the civil servant career track... Developer, programmer and engineer don't)

Jimmy Hoffa

The 4 values for coders that actually mean something:
The junior/green/writes-code-logic-but-can't-really-design
The mid-level who can comfortably design at the module level, but can't really design much beyond that and usually implements designs created by higher level engineers, tends to follow best-practices stuff but only understands why half the time
The senior who can design entire systems, and account for complexities at the macro and micro recognizing how a large design will effect the details that at low level spots locking may be needed etc and what that means below even that level.

Robert Harvey

My job title is Magician.

user55340

@RobertHarvey can you make me a balloon animal?

overexchange

3:32 PM

magician is not a critical skill in Ireland. it is not part of the list.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT That was part of my job description at Employer^

user55340

Security princess: elle.com/culture/tech/advertorial/a14652/…

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I was placed in a position by a recruiter named "Software Specialists" once, and still have a mug I really like that says "Software Specialist" on it.

Love the mug just because it entitles me to claim myself some fancy rarely-used vague but important sounding title :)

user55340

> "Security Princess" is Parisa Tabriz's official title at Google. Seriously. And yes, you can google that. "'Information Security Engineer' is just completely dry and boring and horrible," she says of the HR-speak title, which indeed whitewashes what Tabriz does all day, which is to hack her employer—the single most recognizable entity of the Internet age—bad-guy-in-basement style.

whatsisname

@JimmyHoffa: you're forgetting "grouchy old guy"

overexchange

3:35 PM

@RobertHarvey chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/21741115#21741115 that's a big task, I need lot of effort to accomplish these goals

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT how do you feel about my 4 segregations? There's database developers and all kinds of specialists, but at the end of the day, actual people writing code tend to fall into one of those 4 categories

@whatsisname usually mid-level-who-tries-and-fails-to-be-senior, occasionally senior-whose-just-tired-of-your-shit

user55340

Reasonable for a model of development.

Robert Harvey

@overexchange I appreciate your effort and level of intensity, I really do. However, I think you have a tendency to get caught up in legalistic details. Perhaps you have friends telling you "this is the right way" or "this is the wrong way." There is no such thing; there is only the way that best gets the job done.

whatsisname

i was thinking more tired-of-your-shit type

Jimmy Hoffa

just irritates me when people are like "Programmers just write code, Developers do a lot more, and Engineers are cray cray amayzeeng supermen and and this title and that title means all these different things!" it's all just people misunderstanding what we do and trying to vaguely wave their hands and come up with a logical system for something they don't understand so they can pretend they do. They don't understand what we do, but they understand their classification system so they decide that's enough.

user55340

3:38 PM

dfpug.de/loseblattsammlung%5Conline/workshop/design_patterns/… The surgical team has some overlapping roles with different titles.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I was good until you started bashing engineers again... :-D

user41796

Don't be hatin' is all I'm saying...

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa My title at Employer^ was Software Engineer. I think they gabe me that title because everyone's an engineer there. But my job was essentially the same as a Software Developer would be anywhere else.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I've been titled senior Engineer for years :P I was just referring to how people classify coders (not true-engineers)

user55340

@GlenH7 you are an engineer? Do you drive a train?

user41796

3:40 PM

@MichaelT I have in the past. But so has my son.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Ah, right. Making balloons and driving trains.

Not necessarily at the same time.

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname they're the minority in my experience. Usually grouchiness comes with a bit of the expert-beginner syndrome, people don't usually make senior without enjoying the job which keeps them from being too surly, except towards management, and expert-beginners.

overexchange

@RobertHarvey In fact, I resigned my job last week to execute this task. I want my self sit alone without a mgr on my head for 2 months and complete this stuff. I got access to my university library(where I studied), am spending my complete day there

Jimmy Hoffa

@overexchange O_o what did you quit your job for?

@MichaelT roles are different than levels though. Some roles require someone of a specific level, but not all. Effectively seniors could fill all roles.

user41796

@overexchange That's a bold stake you're taking. Life is not always kind to those who gamble in such a fashion. If I understand correctly in what you're wanting to do, the odds are against you.

user55340

3:43 PM

It is much harder to get a job if you are currently unemployed.

Robert Harvey

Which is really stupid, BTW. I don't think I'll ever quite understand this notion that it's better to pick off someone else's employee than it is to find someone who actually needs the work.

whatsisname

Depends why you left though

Jimmy Hoffa

Also depends on the local industry

overexchange

I left because I was getting monthly salary and nothing else from career perspective. fixing bugs in existing ent app was my daily job

user55340

If you are employed it means you are desirable to the company. I don't agree with it, but having experienced it twice, it has always been easier to get a new job while employed.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:45 PM

@overexchange that's usually the sort of thing people find a new job for, not just leave to do nothing.

overexchange

nothing? I think I shared my plan yesterday, which am going to complete in 2 months

Robert Harvey

@overexchange How long have you been working in software development?

Jimmy Hoffa

@overexchange sorry I didn't see it, care to link to the chat and I'll peruse? I'm curious

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa tl;dr: Learn UML and OO for Enterprise Software Design.

Jimmy Hoffa

O_O

that is a terrible idea

user41796

3:47 PM

@overexchange That's what evenings and weekends are for if you aren't learning enough on the job.

user55340

Let me tell you a secret of software development. Most of it... Like 90% is fixing bugs. Until you put in your time to say you are dependable. Then it's 75% fixing bugs.

Jimmy Hoffa

o goodness I'm so sorry @overexchange, I believe you may have executed a folly of youth... oh well, you'll learn much from this mistake and be better for it in the long run I suppose.

Robert Harvey

Well, don't scare the guy too much. Remember, I'm among the unemployed.

And I'm not completely hopeless. Not yet, anyway.

overexchange

@RobertHarvey hahaha

whatsisname

And when you're good at it, it usually just means you fix the more difficult and strange bugs

user55340

3:49 PM

Switching jobs and leaving to become unemployed makes the dependable part harder.

overexchange

Am awaiting an immigration process results for NZ, it is at medical review stage.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 interestingly I think the type of engineer we all are here (career enterprise folk) is indicative of being quite risk averse. We analyze our options and tend to go for the most highly probable reward for some median value of risk. This is how we execute our jobs after all in planning our work, as high risk takers likely have a far higher failure rate than enterprise shops appreciate.

Robert Harvey

Yep. Were that not the case, we'd all be entrepreneurs.

user55340

I'm going to go out on a limb and say most countries don't particularly care for immigrants who have shown a history of deciding to become unemployed.

Robert Harvey

Especially given the degree of continuing education we have to have.

user41796

3:51 PM

@JimmyHoffa Most of engineering can be summarized as risk analysis, I'd agree. It's a weighing of probable outcomes versus probable benefits.

user41796

@MichaelT I would agree. I think they would show a strong bias towards "currently employed and have a plan for remaining employed."

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 right, and as @RobertHarvey pointed out about entrepreneurship, startups and other such types of businesses outside of enterprise shops tend to accept significantly more risk than the places we've spent most our careers.

overexchange

@MichaelT this immigration process is point based which has nothing to do with my current employment. Before resigning my job, I took permission from immigration officer, which is part of the process.

whatsisname

@MichaelT: Considering NZ has mandatory 20 days vacation minimum for all employees, with several of them required to be taken consecutively, I think they'll be the most understanding of leaving work for awhile to sort out shit

taking a sabbatical or leave of absence is hardly a new concept

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey no, but you didn't choose it, I was actually given marching orders a couple weeks ago (office closes Feb, I'm on until then; so looking now). Choosing to be unemployed, especially with little experience is an extremely risky venture. Doing so just to learn some vague nonsense that frankly isn't what most places give a damn about is...not well thought out...

whatsisname

3:55 PM

just because americans are overworked to the extreme doesn't mean others are

durron597

Do we like the tag eclipse?

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname oh, he's in NZ?

whatsisname

he's planning to move to NZ it looks like

Jimmy Hoffa

Man, I would love to be in most any country other than here...

user41796

@durron597 No, I think the room has a stronger preference for intellij

Jimmy Hoffa

3:55 PM

Ah, now that makes his plan look much better @whatsisname

durron597

@GlenH7 Do we like the tag you-know-what-i-meant?

user41796

@durron597 No, we do not like that tag.

user41796

pedantry

durron597

49 open questions.

user55340

@whatsisname there is a difference between taking a sabbatical (part of my benefits package) and becoming unemployed and possibly requiring state support for a period of time.

Thomas Owens

3:57 PM

I think I just rep-capped on TW twice in a row. For the same answer. #winning

user55340

Canada almost didn't let me visit because I was unemployed at the time.

durron597

Highest voted eclipse answer (unsurprisingly, it's not really about eclipse): programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/189274/…

@ThomasOwens what do you think about tags for specific tools, in particular IDEs. Add them to STCI?

Thomas Owens

@durron597 Ehh....I'm torn.

overexchange

@MichaelT which type of VISA did u apply for Canada?