The Whiteboard

user20683

9:00 PM

@MichaelT yeah, I think the other problem is coming up with interesting examples of apl that are n characters

user20683

that are at the same time explicable to the average programmer

@WorldEngineer coming up with any example of APL that's explicable to the average programmer is pretty much a lost cause...

Robert Harvey

There's always Conway's Game of Life in APL. There's even an explanatory video.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT has the industry "average" been in decline of recent (3-7) years do you think? New guy we got has been hinting at such an idea, I hadn't given it much thought really until talking with him. I'm curious if others have come to a similar conclusion, personally I can't say as though I've any idea at all. It seems more to me that it's always been a mess but I do seem to have better memories of yore. That's always the case though, isn't it?

psr

@JimmyHoffa - I'm doing my DSL using PEG.js. It's kind of like a RegEx that throws events, but it's still way better than a recursive descent parser hand coded in MUMPS.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:12 PM

@psr why don't you use a recursive descent parser written in js if js is available?

psr

@JimmyHoffa I think PEG.js probably beats that too.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr how so? in performance you mean or API?

What're you parsing anywho? out of curiosity

psr

@JimmyHoffa API. I don't have too much concern about performance really.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr cool. I'll have to give it a peek. I have heard of it

ah that does look nice

psr

@JimmyHoffa Our app will have a DSL for user customization. The DSL is partly for sandboxing, partly on the theory that it will be easier to have custom language.

amon

9:16 PM

@JimmyHoffa PEGs are a formalized recursive descent parser with a couple of convenient properties. They are the second-best state of the art parsing algorithm we have (the best being Marpa)

Jimmy Hoffa

cool

I'm playing with it online right now, it is pretty damn neat

user55340

@JimmyHoffa it feels less skilled outside the specific known framework and language

user55340

People lack the skills to learn new things.

user55340

Got a node guy? Ask him to write some Python? Might as well hire a fresh out of college instead.

user55340

It's hard to find people willing to try something outside the comfort zone.

user55340

9:32 PM

If I asked you to write an iOS app and gave you the tools, would you jump at the opportunity?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT obviously, but I don't think that has changed necessarily, you sure? I might agree it seems the ability to follow through on that desire may be less, but people still seem up to trying new stuff, no?

user55340

Programming is becoming too specialized and people are forgetting about the generalists with resumes that don't quite make it past the hr filter.

Jimmy Hoffa

that seems a strange perspective though to if you count in the fact that the variety of necessary technologies required for any given app only grown over previous

user55340

People want to hire exprerts in $tech or so they think.

Jimmy Hoffa

perhaps that has some to do with it- perhaps people are worse at the broad strokes high level understandings (better at concretions than abstractions), which given there are more concretions at play in any given system these days, I could see the result being an overall seemingly less capable workforce

user55340

9:37 PM

So they get resumes from people who focused on it. But can't solve other problems.

Jimmy Hoffa

Do you think there's less desire for crossing techs these days or just less ability? I could see an argument for the latter, the former would be a little difficult for me to grok (enthusiasm seems at an all-time high if you ask me, which rarely has any relation to reality)

user55340

Schools teach one language now. Rather than half a dozen. People have forgotten to use the right tool for the right job. Node for everything. Or Java.

user55340

Brogrammers are after the $ rather than the joy of coding.

user55340

Build it now, make some $, get out before it hits the fan. Go to the next one.

user55340

This attitude precludes a desire to write quality software that will be around in a decade.

psr

9:40 PM

HR trends vary over time. Sometimes they want generalists, sometimes they want specialists. When the economy tanked it was always "I have 4 applicants with 10 years with this exactly, why should I hire you?". Now there seems to be some talk of "full stack", which seems to mean generalist+unicorns.

user55340

Full stack = can you be devops too?

psr

Usually the dev team understands that someone good at a couple languages will likely be fine with #3, but HR doesn't usually agree.

user55340

Insert rant here. Can't type it on phone well.

psr

@MichaelT Oh right, probably means that a lot. But it seems to be very vague, front end plus back end plus network + UX + ... So, like a generalist except as good at everything as a specialist.

user20683

I see a fair number of "hey we use this but if you know something similar apply anyway"

psr

9:44 PM

@WorldEngineer I would view that as a good sign, probably indicating the tech team has actual input.

user20683

@psr yeah

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT so you're saying you agree in the last 3-7 years there has been a marked decline in the industry "average" level?

Interesting, and should be good news for my marketability if it's bad news for the joy I'll find in the industry until the weeble wobbles the other way (they don't fall down)

@psr full stack near as I can tell is more unicorns than generalist. People expect full stack to mean "You know everything about everything, right? Because we want you to write a high performance google ad enabled mouse driver which can also cause your monitor to toast bread"

Like full stack means you can design a flawless database in any RDBMS and do the search engine optimization as well as implement the CI, do the devops, and write every line of code inbetween at the skill level of someone who's been doing each of those things for 10 solid specialist years

psr

@MichaelT Rant rant rant. This kids with their 'social media' and 'wearables' - in my day privacy meant even neighbors had no idea who you were. Now it's all selfies and LOL all day long. And look at me when I'm talking to you, damn it. Give me a decent shell and a 14k modem and I can program anything - and talk port to port, none of this bloated HTTP crap on your GitHub and NuGet and get this and git that -can't you write your own code? Go grunt build a source file and let me be.

Jimmy Hoffa

start
  = expr

expr
  = '(' term:term ')' { return term; }
  / term

term
  = left:integer op:op right:expr { return '( ' + op + ' ' + left + ' ' + right + ' )'; }
  / integer

op "op"
  = op:. { return op; }

integer "integer"
  = digits:[0-9]+ { return digits.join(""); }

That was fun. Turn computations into prefix form.

Duga

@Tom You're right, professional programmers would probably do it differently. For example, they would not limit it to count_two_chars, making it countChars(String s, char... chars), letting their callers pass as many chars as they wish. — dasblinkenlight 6 secs ago

psr

9:57 PM

@JimmyHoffa This is more in line with what I see. I sometimes wonder if it's a technique to bargain on salary by making sure nobody meets the requirements.

Matt S.

Isn't one of the jobs that Stack Exchange advertises for a full-stack developer?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattS. I suspect SE knows the meaning the same way you and I do, unlike many businesses where people think programmers are more sorcerers than anything else

psr

@MattS. Yes, but they mostly hire from the herd of actual unicorns in the basement.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I think it's more just a lack of knowledge: Technology is utter magic. Ask for a magician who knows all magics and I'll be sure to have the best sorcerers in the land!

Matt S.

Or maybe it's part of the test to weed out people who think they're unicorns.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:59 PM

When you acknowledge magic exists, it's easy to presume the level of magic a magic user has doesn't have to follow any laws of reality like years-to-learn, they're magicians after all.

psr

@JimmyHoffa Sure, what if you hire a blizz-baller and the next level boss rolls fire and cold for his immunities?

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr haven't you met idea men? They're pretty convinced they are magicians (from a different school) of the completest abilities. By mere definition of their mystical capacity surely any they try to hire will be the most advanced merlins of all, for only such would surround one such as said Man of Great Ideas

user55340

@JimmyHoffa the average aren't generalists anymore. Just like medicine. The GPs are great - but there aren't as many.

Jimmy Hoffa

too many in this world don't realize "being the change you want" is just a cheery slogan to try and motivate you, not a technique for altering reality with willpower

user55340

And then you are interviewing a dermatologist for something that deals more with eyes...

Jimmy Hoffa

10:03 PM

@MichaelT eyes have skin. It's completely valid.

user55340

But it's not at the expected skill level. The average looks lower.

user55340

You want to find 5 5 5. You are finding 3 3 9. Great if you hit the 9 skill, but not as good on the other ones.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT you think this is caused by practices of generalist-vs-specialist, not other possible causes, like supply-vs-demand, or characteristics of the techs people have experience with etc, or anything else?

user55340

And if you don't care about the 9 (how many do you need? Is it even in the tech stack) it looks even worse.

user55340

The others are there too.

user55340

10:07 PM

G vs S is one facet

Jimmy Hoffa

I'm curious where this comes from. I would actually lay cause at the foot of the many new businesses in the industry started by people of ever decreasing technical comprehension as tech becomes more common place the confidence level of technically incompetent people grows causing greater percent of the technical industry leadership to be non-technical

user55340

Btw, ever read great sky river?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT nope?

user55340

Great Sky River (novel)

Great Sky River is a Nebula Award nominated 1987 novel written by author Gregory Benford as a part of his Galactic Center Saga series of books. == Synopsis == After the events of Across the Sea of Suns small groups of humans have settled on other star systems. However there is a constant threat from the Mechs, a civilization of machines leftover from other civilizations and evolved to see all biological civilization as unstable and dangerous. Great Sky River tells the story of the Bishop family, who fight for their very existence on the planet Snowglade, which has been taken over by the Mechs....

user55340

Good book.

user55340

10:08 PM

I feel like I've been reduced from an aspect to a face.

Jimmy Hoffa

O_o

I'll go with fascia, no I don't know what you're talking about

user55340

I'll describe more when on a real computer.

enderland

Part of the difference is hiring "people with experience who can do specific jobs" vs "hire smart people with related experience who can learn to do everything"

Matt S.

I blame all of the above.

gnat

I am 10Ker yet again: "helpful flags 10009" :)

2

Duga

10:17 PM

...to sign-extend int values which are shifted right, does the vagueness offer any benefit to anyone that would offset the cost of forcing programmers to write constructs like (int)((n ^ 0x80000000u) >> 4)-0x8000000? — supercat 1 min ago

enderland

@enderland: How do you know that your sample user even EXISTS, much less exists in sufficient quantity and with sufficient disposable income to make it worthwhile to build your proposed product? Doing it Apple's way at least guarantees you know your customers are out there. — John R. Strohm 1 min ago

is this really suggesting you should make products without any ideal of who your users and target audience are?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattS. I was just trying to identify if it was merely my cynicism or a real issue

user55340

It's a real issue for cynics?

Jimmy Hoffa

sounds like the consensus is it's not all just in my head (never something you want to verify for someone as paranoid as me...what else isn't just in my head? O_O)

user20683

@psr actually, teens today are more conscious of their privacy than those of use born in the 80s

Matt S.

10:20 PM

@JimmyHoffa Personally I think there's an oversaturation of people who are in the market because it's visible that money exists in the tech industry and people want to be around to get it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattS. so you think it's an oversaturation that has reduced the average, but wouldn't that then decry a supply-vs-demand ratio that ensured much of that wasn't actually participatory people? Or do you think the demand is available to cause a saturation of incompetents?

Matt S.

I'm trying to consider how many startups there are that hire people for a few years before finally turning over.

user20683

@MattS. start ups are only one part of the tech ecosystem though

Matt S.

Companies built around people who saw the success of other startups and thought they could reproduce the same results.

@WorldEngineer But then you get large companies like the one I work at where it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you sit in your chair.

user20683

@MattS. and then there's the crazy world of industrial control systems and the like

user20683

10:30 PM

who knows

Matt S.

It's complicated.

user20683

@MattS. it's complicated and subject to the same myths as entertainment

user20683

that NYC and CA are the only games in town

Matt S.

I don't think I have much experience in the subject, but from what I've seen most graduates are only interested in being in the industry for the money. Meanwhile there are just as many older folks who've become too comfortable with their jobs that they've lost the ability to do anything else.

It leaves a lot less in the middle to select from.

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