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1:01 AM
Those two perspectives seem to be largely interchangeable as given. That said, this might do better on Programmers or even Software Quality Assurance & Testing, since it's less about specific code problems and more about testing methodology. — Nathan Tuggy 1 min ago
 
 
11 hours later…
12:26 PM
What tools are good for making a block diagram? Just boxes with text in them (sometimes nested) and arrows with text labels between the boxes. Both Dia and Visio 2013 suck for this.
 
12:40 PM
powerpoint?
 
Eh. I suppose I could. I tried Word and I found it clunky. Is PowerPoint 2010's drawing canvas better than Word 2010's drawing canvas?
I'm also checking out the Eclipse modeling tools. Maybe instead of a traditional block block diagram, I'll make a SysML Block Diagram.
 
you can decorate the text boxes themselves with borders and such
 
I don't need fancy borders. PowerPoint doesn't let me easily add text to arrows, though, so that's not good.
I used to use Visio, but I got a new work computer. For some reason, we use Office 2010. Except for Visio, which is 2013. And Visio 2013 is awful.
I'll just make my diagrams later. I just don't know how making pictures is so damn hard.
 
user55340
1:46 PM
I don't need no fancy borders. I don't need no page effect. No sparkles or blinds. Hey! Manager you're gonna get decked!
 
user55340
All in all, it's just another slide on the wall ♫
3
 
user55340
2:22 PM
-4
Q: I'm having trouble understanding these exercises wording

KasHKoWExercise 1-20. Write a program detab that replaces tabs in the input with the proper number of blanks to space to the next tab stop. Assume a fixed set of tab stops, say every n columns. Should n be a variable or a symbolic parameter? Exercise 1-21. Write a program entab that replaces strings of...

 
user55340
Delete votes please
 
user41796
@MichaelT it's gone
 
user41796
3:27 PM
Close votes, please. It's attracting low quality answers.
 
user41796
-3
Q: Combining two MVC frameworks in a project

SASMIs it any good to combine two MVC frameworks together in a project? Is it a fairly common approach? I am thinking about using a serverside framework like CodeIgniter/Laravel and client side framework AngularJS in a predominantly CRUD based web project. I am a bit apprehensive about this idea. I t...

 
user55340
@GlenH7 close voted on apr 2014. Given its age if a few of us were in that review, you might want to get a mod to help out with the closure.
 
user41796
That was my follow-up thought, yes
 
user55340
review/close/60572
 
user55340
So, only me and another closing on that review then. May not be as hard now as some other old closes.
 
4:08 PM
Requirements engineering is fun. I just wish I had better modeling tools at my disposal...
 
@ThomasOwens you don't have a whiteboard?
 
@ratchetfreak I do. But at the end of the day, I need to share electronic models with people.
I'm hoping to get Rational Rhapsody at some point, since that's our current tool of choice.
 
@ThomasOwens pic with your smartphone
 
@ratchetfreak I would need a company phone to do that.
 
4:37 PM
Why? Is is super sekrit whiteboard scribblings?
 
@ThomasOwens no you just need a guy with a company phone, or request a company camera
 
@GlenH7 This question doesn't seem that bad (except maybe for that “best practices” bit). The 1st response to low quality answers by low-rep users would typically be protection, which I have done for now. Why shouldn't I vote to leave the Q open?
 
user41796
@amon I got the impression they only cared about those two frameworks and not the broader or more general question
 
user41796
so that implied to me it's more of an ephemeral question that will lose value over time
 
5:06 PM
Hmm. I tried editing it into shape. The current 1st answer is mostly conceptual so I think it's all fine. The other answers however …
-4
Q: How can I team up two MVC frameworks without having them fight each other?

SASMI'm creating a CRUD-based web project, and am thinking about using a server side MVC framework (such as CodeIgniter or Laravel) in tandem with a client side MVC framework (such as AngularJS). Is this a fairly common approach? After all, it's clear that I need something on the server, and that doi...

 
@amon how? Easy: Don't.
 
user41796
@amon good edit
 
user41796
And I'm not too worried about invalidating some of those answers. They were meh to begin with
 
@GlenH7 you might have interest in this - chat.stackexchange.com/messages/20209801/history
 
user41796
@enderland I saw that, yes. Was going to comment but dealing with some cleanup over on Eng
 
5:10 PM
:)
working hard I see :)
 
A janitor's work is never done.
 
user41796
And there was another aspect that had to get cleaned up
 
if you have an operation request, and you need to check if you can do it (do I have all the resources necessary right now ?) what would you call that? It's not really "Validation" because the request could be completely valid but not currently executable...
IsPossible? CanExecute?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa precondition check?
 
@GlenH7 Condition! yes... this is a good term
I like it. Thanks
 
user41796
5:16 PM
Woohoo! I was finally useful today
 
@GlenH7 yep, might as well go home now, it won't get any better than this
 
> The association says the average Longshoreman earns $147,000 a year. They have no co-pays for health insurance. They earn an annual holiday to recognize Harry Bridges, a Marxist whose farsighted leadership led to the power that the union commands today.
 
Question for anyone with Hibernate experience
 
@enderland uncontrolled stats much? "Longshoreman" is a loaded term trying to make them sound bottom of the barrel to those who don't know any better, who's to say that title isn't held by all of 1 in 2000 employees there, and is in fact some sort of port captain where the majority of union members their striking only make half that? They give no controls to verify context on those benefits.
 
If I have experience using JDBC, MySQL, PreparedStatement etc. but I've never used JPA, how long do you think it would take me to get up to speed?
I'm trying to make an estimate for my Boss^ for how long a project will take
 
5:27 PM
perhaps it's as bad as it sounds, but regardless that paragraph is clearly attempting to guide you to a particular perception, whether accurate or not it cites no evidence to back up this perspective
 
@JimmyHoffa welcome to news in the 21st century :(
 
@durron597 oh I know, doesn't mean I won't question it when people try and spread biased perspectives near me...
 
@JimmyHoffa Every day I am torn between reading crap I know is full of half truths/distortions and not being informed
It really sucks.
 
user55340
As an aside, since you (@MattKorostoff) do have at least 20 rep on the network, you may find Programmers Chat to be a good place to bounce this question around and get the discussion and commentary (including from our esteemed Robert Harvey) in a different format. — MichaelT 50 secs ago
 
5:42 PM
Hey @MichaelT Can you answer my Hibernate question above
 
user55340
@durron597 not too long. Fire up a quick and simple crud project and start with hibernate. Annotate the model and you are most of the way there.
 
user55340
The tricky parts are either very tricky or handled with native queries.
 
my big concern is that my server application was not designed with persistence in mind
 
user55340
But the 80% solution with hibernate is reasonable to get up to speed with quickly.
 
As a rule I avoid watching or listening to any news. I turn NPR on sometimes just to catch up on what wars are still on and which ones aren't once in a while. Mostly I stay uninformed because it makes it easier to let news drama from my colleagues roll off my back. If I actually inform myself I might care and get irritated with them
 
5:47 PM
@MichaelT Confession: I haven't written code that uses a database since 2010
I know what CRUD is in conceptual terms only
 
plus most the news is just horrifyingly depressing, and I figure I'm better off finding out from those around me when it really matters than getting new depressing information on a daily basis
 
user55340
@durron597 grab my testing with hsqldb github project and modify it?
 
@MichaelT That would be extremely helpful
git link?
 
user55340
Granted, it needs to be modified to add hibernate there.
 
user55340
5:50 PM
But it's a nice simple crud in memory with unit tests.
 
@MichaelT Maybe I'll make a hibernate pull request ;)
 
user55340
I'd welcome it.
 
do you think that it would be easier for me, given SQL familiarity, to try to implement CRUD on my own in my production code or to learn Hibernate
i think the latter for sure
touch base later, got a meeting now
thanks
 
There's lots of ways you can get a DAL. One way is to code-generate the necessary SQL for each of your CRUD functions. ORM's are often used mainly because they are often used; they have become a defacto standard way of doing things.
Writing all that crap... er, CRUD by hand is the last resort, if it's a non-trivial sized application.
 
user55340
6:09 PM
@RobertHarvey Create, Replicate, Append, Process
 
user55340
That's a different system
 
Pretty much what I do (or my digestive system does) every day.
 
user55340
Typically comes from machines. Log files and the like.
 
user55340
Also - big data things v
 
6:31 PM
What is a "Veteran?" Someone who goes to the pet clinic all the time? — Robert Harvey 22 secs ago
[sigh]
 
Outside of the major box vendors (like IBM), are there toolchains for requirements engineering, architecture and design, code, test cases, and so forth, to provide complete linkages? I'm thinking about the IBM tool chain. I can keep my requirements and test procedures in DOORS, do my design in Rational Rose or Rhapsody, keep my code into ClearCase and have complete life cycle traceability.
I know that IBMs new products that are built on the Jazz platform offer some level of replacement for the parts. You don't like ClearCase? Integrate with Git or SVN or something else for version control. There are standard APIs and such.
I'm thinking more about a complete lifecycle tool that's built around open-source components, or a suite of open-source components.
 
"Complete linkages?"
What specific capabilities would it need?
CI?
UML diagramming?
 
@RobertHarvey Yeah. Trace from a requirement to the architecture and design elements that fulfill that requirement, and then to the source code objects that implement that design, to the test cases that test the requirement, and any bug reports against those objects.
 
Does your existing quilt/collage of proprietary software already accomplish those things?
 
@RobertHarvey IBM's tools do, yes. Other vendors have "Application Lifecycle Management" suites that either integrate with other vendors' products or provide their own. But these are all enterprise level things.
I'm looking for this, but more affordable for smaller businesses.
 
6:45 PM
Are smaller businesses of sufficient scope to justify this level of ceremony?
 
Eclipse has pieces of this in place, but it's not there.
@RobertHarvey If you're working in aviation or medical devices, you somehow need to provide this. I suppose you don't need fancy tools. An Excel spreadsheet under the proper controls can be sufficient for audits.
 
Interesting idea. My impression is that open source gravitates to smaller and more nimble, and isn't particularly interested in big-picture things like this unless it involves tools used directly for coding.
 
I suspect that if such a thing exists, it would be built on some kind of open API. I think that's the approach Eclipse is taking.
But it's really in its infancy.
 
Wow. Searching for a day gave me nothing./
You just found something.
IBM is also embracing the same open standards.
 
6:53 PM
I found other things, but they don't look like ALM, even though they use the term. They just look like tracking and reporting devices for Agile and Scrum.
The front page could use some cleanup. There's a lot of unanswerable/opinion questions there.
 
anyone remember that question about the difference of two dates resulting in an unexpected value... and it having to do with some whacky timezone?
I thought Eric Lippert had answered that one, but a quick glance at his posts doesn't show it.
 
3041
Q: Why is subtracting these two times (in 1927) giving a strange result?

FreewindIf I run the following program, which parses two date strings referencing times one second apart and compares them: public static void main(String[] args) throws ParseException { SimpleDateFormat sf = new SimpleDateFormat("yyyy-MM-dd HH:mm:ss"); String str3 = "1927-12-31 23:54:07"; ...

 
thanks!
 
 
1 hour later…
user55340
8:14 PM
@ThomasOwens ibm is the most complete setup. Others have significant chunks, but none as complete nor integrated.
 
> If all you have is a hammer, everything's out to get you
 
heh "problematic"
 
user20683
@Telastyn I've spent enough time in contact with the retail industry to know how to couch my language :)
 
I have too, but when I say problematic, it's just dripping with disdain and often comes out worse than if I just said sucky.
 
9:07 PM
> People in glass houses are worth two in the bush
 
user20683
@JimmyHoffa and twice as tempting to "Russian" hackers with rocks
 
@WorldEngineer Yeah, obviously the author is not a very good Java programmer himself. This is clear by his utter inability to use Maven.
 
enderland is about to apply for a java dev job
enderland munches popcorn
 
@enderland You're sending me your resume? ;)
 
@durron597 Nope! internal
 
9:12 PM
@enderland I know, that was a joke
 
@durron597 or... was it? :)
 
user55340
... And yes, I'm out of close votes.
 
I just want to double check something. It's a functional requirement if an application must display something to a user, yes?
 
user20683
@ThomasOwens yes
 
As opposed to what?
 
user20683
9:13 PM
the displaying being comprehensible is a non-functional requirement
 
It doesn't say how to display or format the thing. There may be UI guidelines that are referenced or business rules about who can view it, but the fact that something is displayed is purely functional.
 
user55340
I am sure I would have gotten dirty looks from @durron597 if that project wasn't maven backed. (Or gradle)
 
user20683
gradle seems to be the new hotness
 
user55340
It's too powerful for me.
 
I need to get better about trying stuff just because
Like, I've never tried gradle, because I have no reason to
 
user20683
9:17 PM
It does have that "I am a Nuclear Powered Shotgun, just because" feel to it from what I've seen
 
@WorldEngineer You just solved: what-if.xkcd.com/130
Though I supposed you'd need three nuclear powered shotguns.
 
Soooo many off-topic questions today.
 
user20683
@RobertHarvey Start of Midterms in many places
 
user20683
my academic friends are all joking about it today
 
You'd think none of them knows about Google.
 
user20683
9:24 PM
@RobertHarvey never underestimate the inability of people to comprehend search
 
user55340
@durron597 I don't think I really want my build system to be that flexible. Standards, conventions and consistently are important.
 
user55340
Ant in part exists because make was too powerful and flexible.
 
user55340
Just ant didn't handle dependence (which became very important in Java) nor did it encourage consistency of projects.
 
user55340
This becomes worse when the ide manages ant- can't switch ides then.
 
user55340
Net beans with ant is s mess to use on eclipse with ant. I think idea doesn't even go there.
 
9:31 PM
Ant uses nuclear powered shotguns?
 
user55340
Gradle does.
 
@MichaelT This thing uses javax.servlet; is this analogy correct: javax.servlet is to Tomcat as slf4j is to log4j
I haven't done web programming in years either :-P
 
user55340
Ant is a shotgun with custom made shells. Sometimes they blow up.
 
user20683
@MichaelT and sometimes they are made of rocks
 
user55340
Servlets are the raw access rather than another framework dependency.
 
user55340
9:33 PM
I wanted it to be as simple as possible. Use spring and you've got a dozen jars that maven needs.
 
@MichaelT I'm sorry, I don't understand. How is javax.servlet different than jetty or Tomcat
is it like the barest bones version?
 
user55340
yep.
 
user55340
Spring and stripes are abstraction layers on top of that.
 
Well Spring doesn't need to be web (though it often is, obviously)
Wow, you're using java.util.Calendar. That crap is so bad I just automatically add a joda-time dependency. It's worth it
 
user55340
Minimal dependency. I was after the simplest thing that did unit tests of the sql.
 
user55340
9:38 PM
And not mocks of the calls.
 
@MichaelT Yeah, I know. I'm just laughing because, for me, joda-time IS a minimal dependency, that's how bad I consider juCalendar to be
 
user55340
Just like regex, sql is an inner platform. But people rarely test it. They just mock the call and ignore the bugs until integration testing.
 
@MichaelT Obviously my regex html parsing is going to work. Why wouldn't it?
 
user55340
But sql is worse, because you can't test it without a db to return results.
 
If I run this program on a machine that has apache running on it, will they break each other?
I don't immediately see how to configure the servlet settings
 
user55340
9:41 PM
Tomcat? Or the unit test?
 
Running the main app
Or do I need to add a tomcat dependency
 
user55340
In tomcat... No, as long as there is no port conflict.
 
user55340
It runs as is with a MySQL db and tomcat app server.
 
Ok, now I'm really confused. I thought you said this works without tomcat
 
user55340
Schema in src/db
 
9:43 PM
or does it need tomcat BECAUSE i have apache installed?
 
user55340
As unit testing. And hibernate can do that.
 
user55340
Run the tests - not the app.
 
ah
 
user55340
You can deploy the app too... But the key point of the project was actual db calls without needing the app running.
 
user55340
Note also the db connection code and configs.
 
user55340
9:48 PM
(Gah! I was a tabbist in that project?!)
 
@MichaelT Any reason you didn't do try-with-resources?
ah. java 6?
 
user55340
Employer was Java 6 (current one is too). Wanted the demo to be what works in that env.
 
So realistically, is Java actually that bad to work with?
 
user41796
Nah
 
user41796
It's fine. It's just another language
 
9:54 PM
depends on what you're used to working in
 
24
Q: How to justify migration from Java 6 to Java 7?

JayanWe were migrating from Java 6 to Java 7. The project is behind schedule and risks being dropped, in which case it will continue to use Java 6. What are the specific improvements in Java 7 that we could go back to our manager with and convince him it is important to use JDK 7? Looking for bug fi...

 
if you're used to C++, it'll be kinda awesome.
if you're used to C#... well, my condolences.
 
user55340
@durron597 2 Java devs with a huge backlog. Migration didn't have roi.
 
At Employer or Employer^?
The backwards compatibility is so good, it wouldn't take very long. And the performance improvements alone are massive
I made my brother update to Java 7 at his job. He said it singlehandedly saved his demo (it was running achingly slow)
 
user55340
Here, few Java devs in a state agency where library upgrade certification cycles are months.. Now, you want to upgrade everything?!
 
9:57 PM
@MichaelT Ew. I don't think I could stand to work in such conditions
 
user114359
Java as a language isn't bad, but some of the monstrosities built with it are.
 
@Snowman Like Google and Twitter?
 
user55340
They pay well, flexible schedules (80/9 schedule) nice benefits (120 h vacation first year, sabbatical banking at 4y (160h then))...
 
@MichaelT That 80/9 schedule is nice
 
@Snowman Some of the Java enterprise programs that I've seem seem more like paperwork than an actual program. Like filling out a requisition the size of a 1040 long form to borrow a spoon from the cafeteria.
 
10:10 PM
@RobertHarvey Just because you can write FactoryCubes with Java doesn't mean it's the only way
 
user114359
Programmers who suck will build terrible programs regardless of the programming language.
 
Yeah, but these programs claim to be "best practice."
 
user114359
I can claim to be Tinkerbell, doesn't make it true
 
user41796
@Snowman Yeah, cause we all know Tinkerbell is a fairy, not a snowman.
 
user41796
Pffft. Not falling for that one!
 
user114359
10:22 PM
Clearly, I may as well claim to be a velociraptor.
 
user114359
obligatory xkcd link: xkcd.com/135
 
user41796
@Snowman That's hilarious
 
user41796
And of course, I was solving those equations on the fly while reading...
 
user114359
Mention what? I already erased that from my memory ;-)
 
@GlenH7 @enderland see above removed message
 
user41796
10:32 PM
Notice how you never need to mention the information you don't know. :-)
 
user55340
Java has a lot of ceremony for "simple" things. Yes, that's annoying. That said, I can walk in a Mass and know what type it is and what to expect next because of that ceremony. I can quickly understand ceremonious Java code.
 
user55340
This becomes more useful with large projects. That said the architecture of large projects may have gone off the rails... And that is a problem in every language.
 
user55340
Diving into large unceremonious projects can be a challenge.
 
user55340
Diving into small ceremonial projects feels tedious.
 
user55340
Note that Java EE 1.4 was much worse with its configs and interfaces. Many people still use ancient examples as straw men.
 
user55340
10:40 PM
Two objects and an interface for each bean (no codegen back then) and two entries in xml files.
 
user41796
<---- Fun!
 
:(
 
@GlenH7 Sounds like it! Bring a bottle of tequila and two shot glasses
 
user15026
10:53 PM
supplies the cupcakes, because sounds like they are needed
 
user55340
Tequila cupcakes?
 
user41796
But I could go for some cupcakes
 
I guess that's "good" ?
 
user41796
cupcakes are always good. :-)
 
I was more referring to your deleted message... :P
 
user15026
10:57 PM
@MichaelT I made rum cupcakes once. They were awesome. (rum cake + rum caramel filling + rum buttercream)
 
user55340
Did you share?
 
@AshleyNunn should always add Chocolate
 
user15026
@MichaelT They were for my sister's birthday one year, so yes :)
 
user15026
@JimmyHoffa That would have worked well
 
user55340
But... You didn't invite us.
 
@durron597 why does your coworker think they will get fired?
 
user15026
@MichaelT It was before my Whiteboard days!
 
@enderland Because he thought he thought he was going to be groomed to be a trader, but now they're hiring a different person to be a trader. He thinks that hire will replace him. This is happening mostly because his job performance has been no more than adequate. And because it's clear that while his performance has been adequate, it has still disappointed Boss^
 
@durron597 Ah, so Boss^ is basically the problem then - nothing you can say will ever change the coworker's mind if he thinks his boss doesn't want him there
 
@enderland Boss^ is just a hardass though, Coworker is just insecure. I've been yelled at many times by Boss^ but I know my job is very secure
 
11:19 PM
Bad managers do plenty of things to either cause employees to worry about their jobs or not feel reassured about them...
 
user55340
Btw, that mathematical software question needs work or close votes pronto.
 
@enderland Agreed, but now the actual issue is that we are doing a lot of discussions about office space, buying desks and computers, etc.; I know relevant topics will come up between me and Boss^ and I'm going to have to either say something (loyalty to company) or not (loyalty to coworker) and by informing me he's making me choose, which is making me uncomfortable
He should not have told me. It is none of my business, and I don't want to know.
 
user55340
@durron597 is the xy problem?
 
@MichaelT You mean, vis-a-vis what I posted in the workplace?
 
user55340
Was more joking that you are the xy problem (not the actual problem though)
 
11:28 PM
@MichaelT Well, I am male, so I guess that makes me an XY problem
 
user15026
@durron597 facedesk
 
user55340
Btw, thank you @WorldEngineer for that close. Bunch of nonstandard names on that close list.
 
@AshleyNunn My girlfriend calls my sense of humor "dad humor"
 
user15026
@durron597 I'd be inclined to agree
 
user15026
But I like it
 
11:32 PM
@AshleyNunn she does too :D
 
user55340
@durron597 go to reddit. Search for the dadjokes subredit.
 
user55340
There may even be a programmer variety.
 
user15026
Never realized how gross my monitor was until I cleaned it just now and was like "wow the whiteboard is so white...."
 
user55340
Should show you cat sneezes on the back of mine...
 
@AshleyNunn I think you get to be an honorary Dad for that one
 
user15026
11:36 PM
@durron597 But I am a lady!
 
user15026
@MichaelT Yeah, everything I love is covered in cat-bits
 
user55340
Why are there no blind kernel coders? Because they can't C.
 
user15026
@MichaelT I kinda secretly love jokes like this
 
user55340
11:39 PM
@AshleyNunn you can be an honorary member then.
 
user15026
@MichaelT Excellent.
 
user55340
(Note, dad joke pun in previous comment... Probably not well executed because of iPhone keyboard)
 
psr
@MichaelT Too crazy big and impersonal - try programmerdadcatjokeswithcupcakes for a real community.
 
@MichaelT Dadjokes has some funny ones, but ProgrammerDadJokes really... doesn't.
 
user55340
The key to dad jokes is the conversation. It's not a Q&A.
 
user15026
11:44 PM
Yeah, they need the interaction
 

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