The Whiteboard - 2014-05-19 (page 2 of 2)

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user55340

8:01 PM

Ahhh! Out of close votes.

user41796

@MichaelT Did the firewall question take your last one?

user55340

@GlenH7 That was the one that made me realize I was out. Had a dup vote as my last one.

user41796

I have been slacking as I still have 12 left.

@RobertHarvey Can you read this to make sure that I didn't put words into your mouth?

Also, that URL...

Howdy room, hope you all had a good weekend

8:25 PM

@ThomasOwens any reason not to make the UI panels type-specific so that each one is type-coupled with the specific command type it operats against? Loose coupling is good and all, and definitely something to strive for overall, but that doesn't mean that all tight coupling is bad. We depend on abstractions as much as we can, but frequently there's an eventual step wherein you need somethings to rely on concretions instead of abstractions.

There's nothing wrong with creating tight coupling between classes when their conceptual semantic purpose means they would be useless without eachother. A UI panel for a specific command type is the perfect example: It is totally pointless in relation to a generic command type, it's entire purpose and value is that it's a UI panel for that specific concrete command type

I would have an abstraction over your UI panels and command types and some composer that recognizes them by abstraction, but through information from the abstraction the composer should be able to compose the UI panels and command types together to match the correct concretions with their concrete presentations. Sometimes a Type[] SupportedCommands type field in an abstraction is worth while to allow outsiders to compose things without concrete knowledge

@ThomasOwens Looks fine to me.

Well, after a nice chat with this fellow, I voted to close his question as Too Broad.

-1

Q: Is it possible to develop for iOS without being an "Apple developer"?

I do not want to pay developer fees, become an "Apple developer" member, etc., etc., etc. I am trying to write some test programs to become familiar with iOS development, but I am wanting to avoid these steps in the development process: 1.Using any OS X OS in the process, or Mac device. 2.Virtu...

development-process ios apple xcode

user41796

@RobertHarvey I like the bit about "nice chat"

user41796

Personally, he lost me at "bitch." Pretty much figured he was a help vampire.

Well, he wants it spelled out for him. He wants someone to hand him a hackintosh without having to do any of the work.

how awful is taking a job which requires you to be on call?

8:39 PM

@RobertHarvey you really can't help yourself from getting caught up in arguments with idiots heh

user41796

@enderland depends upon the job and your lifestyle.

@GlenH7 I just had a convo about a job at my current company, basically doing java webapp stuff, but part of the job is being on call (some of them are customer facing)

@JimmyHoffa Can you do what he wants with a hackintosh?

@RobertHarvey You can't do what he wants with anything. Let's be clear about what he wants: To have some software magically created with nearly no effort that works flawlessly as perfect as the magical thoughts that run through his head. No, you can't do that with a hackintosh, or a macintosh, or even a cray.

Good point.

user41796

8:41 PM

@enderland Personally, I'll never go on call again if I have anything to do about it. But I also really dislike having my weekends get interrupted. And I have found that the "crisis work" ends up being more than what I had been told.

user41796

But I know quite a few to where it's no big deal to them. Really disliking on-call is just one of my quirks I guesss.

Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about it, either, I guess it probably would greatly depend on whether I got compensated for the time or not

@RobertHarvey the thing is, you keep going with these things far past what should ever happen, the 5th comment here should have been the end of anybody interacting with that guy at all:

@GlenH7 Fine, then be a bitch and vote to close it rather than help before you do so even. — Silk Bones 19 mins ago

user41796

@enderland Generally, the compensation isn't in alignment with level of effort. And it's "hidden time" so others may resent your working "less" during the week. And no, they'll never really believe how many hours may be required for on call on any particular weekend or evening.

but no, there's 24 comments further after that

user41796

8:45 PM

@RobertHarvey Then don't say I can't do it ... it just shows that you are incapable yourself.. I feel I should do it now and come back here whenever I get something going just to prove you wrong. — Silk Bones 2 mins ago

user41796

That one is actually pretty funny. Especially given that it's a throw-away SE account.

that whole thread is rather amusing to read

@RobertHarvey do you just enjoy razzing these guys as much as they enjoy being morons? That must be it.

OMG. Best. Response. Ever.

@GlenH7 I think being on call would lead to me hating my job, unless i LOVED all the other elements of it...

8:48 PM

@RobertHarvey I don't know what kind of analogy that is, but it sounds sexist. Anyways, I am not "fucking" Apple and I do not need any money to do this. I don't know where you get the idea from that this will cost money. — Silk Bones 59 secs ago

user41796

@enderland Distinctly possible yes.

Hmm, nice ninja edit there.

user41796

@RobertHarvey I saw the earlier version. It's still pretty funny

@RobertHarvey Maybe if you took the chip off your shoulder we could continue this in chat. — Silk Bones 34 secs ago

user41796

Where's a Progs mod when you need one to obliterate a thread?

8:49 PM

it's already being continued in chat, right now!

gah somebody close that thing before @RobertHarvey loses a digit

I have no intention of entering any chat room with this guy.

user41796

@enderland amusing suggestion from a 1 rep throw-away-account user.

Alright, I'm done. Sorry if I offended anyone.

user41796

@RobertHarvey slow day at work?

8:52 PM

@StevenBurnap ABSOLUTELY - talk about cost savings. Stupid labor laws won't allow it though, thank god for outsourcing! — Jimmy Hoffa 6 secs ago

No, actually. Lunch time. Sort of.

user41796

That makes sense.

Popcorn is on the menu.

user41796

Too bad the 3 progs mods discussing cross-posting all disappeared. They could clean that one up quickly.

it's gone already

8:54 PM

I think this is an absolutely horrible idea, but probably not much worse than other common hiring approaches. — Telastyn 4 mins ago

Hmm, it must have been spam-flagged out of existence.

user41796

@enderland Community deleted the post. User account is dead. Don't know if someone can self-delete like that or if something else fired on 'em

Ah, @WorldEngineer. You missed all the excitement.

user41796

No, I think the cannon just entered the room

user20683

Did I now?

8:55 PM

@GlenH7 Deleted by the Community User.

user20683

I don't know what you're talking about

user20683

anyway

user15026

Man, and I thought the main site I need for work like OMG now being down for hte last half hour or so was bad. :P

user20683

regarding the crosspost, I'm willing to reopen it if he kills off the rest of the dupes

user20683

simple as that

user41796

8:56 PM

@RobertHarvey I thought that community automatically deleted questions if the user account was nuked by someone.

It does. Was that Goma or Andy?

user20683

Goma? We had a Goma sighting?

user20683

where?

user41796

@RobertHarvey Not Andy's MO. Not sure if we've had Goma recently

user41796

@WorldEngineer programmers.stackexchange.com/q/240536/53019

8:57 PM

-7

Q: كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟

كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟ كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟ كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟ كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟ كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير المؤشر؟ كيف يمكنني تحويل مؤشر إلى قائمة مرتبطة غير...

you're famous @RobertHarvey

user41796

@WorldEngineer - I'm curious if the IP address lines up with any of the known regular trolls.

Yeah, I don't live in Maine.

user20683

@GlenH7 So am I

user20683

anyway, I should look into the whole crosspost thing again

user41796

@RobertHarvey You expect accuracy from someone like that?

8:59 PM

Heh.

user41796

@WorldEngineer It's a good question, just shouldn't have been cross-posted.

user20683

@GlenH7 as I've said. Pity about that but I think we've cleared it up.

user41796

It would be easiest if CS migrated here and then got merged. The CS answer ought to stick around as it addresses the broader aspect of the question. The Progs answers dove into the details of the specific example.

user20683

I'll ask the CS mods to do so

guy's at it again

programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/240545/…

user41796

9:03 PM

@ratchetfreak one more and the spam blocker should temporarily block the IP

You gotta be kidding me.

user20683

@RobertHarvey I'm impressed. Usually that kind of vitriol is reserved for the likes of me.

Now I see why people register anonymously.

@WorldEngineer Don't delete it yet

9:20 PM

I've removed my age and location from my profile, so that this kind of correlation can no longer occur. If anyone wants to know, they can simply ask me.

Kind of a shame, really. This is why we can't have nice things.

@JimmyHoffa: I relate more to the lead character (although I do get frustrated with messages like "PC LOAD LETTER").

> What the fuck does that mean?

Yes, indeed. :)

Unfortunate naming I suppose.

9:37 PM

@RobertHarvey That's exactly why in my case. Sorry about that.

It's my fault really. I could have suggested he change the laws in his local area to allow copying iOS. Or that he purchase Apple - possibly funded by a Kickstarter campaign to save $. I think all of us are responsible for letting the question be closed without considering all the options first.

user20683

@psr You've been Andy'ed. Sorry.

9:53 PM

I blame the school system

gah. My instincts are terrible. I follow my instincts and end up with C# that looks like LISP. If anybody else has to manage this code they will think I've lost my mind. Recursive use of the list monad to flatten an arbitrary depth tree is acceptable behaviour for a C# dev? Right? Right? I'm hopeless.

Haskell has scrambled your neurons. Electroshock therapy might help.

Hey, Andy Harglesis has his own meme!

@RobertHarvey is possible.

Bonk bonk, bonkity bonk.

I'm not writing LISP in C#. What gives you that idea? Just because I have a 15 line block of code that indents continually until the last line which reads: ))))))))))))); doesn't make it LISP. Nope.

10:12 PM

You mean }}}}}}}}}}}}}}, don't you?

oh no he is abusing nested calls

Ill-advised, late migration from SO:

0

Q: How to describe the semantic of Database

I want to describe my Employee databse so I can use this semantic description in the process of translating it inot SQL query. I came across quepy example where they have used RDF as Domain specific language for thier database, my question is: - I understand that RDF is used to describe resourc...

sql database relational-database semantic-web

Ack. Migrated by a moderator.

@RobertHarvey The boy is working hard to make his future job interviews complicated.

@JimmyHoffa It's the custom version of IEnumerable that uses CDR as one of the methods that has me a little concerned.

Hey, in this day and age, you never know what people find valuable.

I'm not buying the Continue Down Road acronym.

10:28 PM

@psr is that what CDR stands for? Anytime I see the stupid LISP terms for these:

user image

I just get annoyed because they don't make any sense

or at least I never bothered to find out what they're supposed to mean. But whatever it is they're supposed to mean, it's dumb, I'm sure of it.

Precursors to Lisp included functions:

    car (short for "Contents of the Address part of Register number"),
    cdr ("Contents of the Decrement part of Register number"),
    cpr ("Contents of the Prefix part of Register number"), and
    ctr ("Contents of the Tag part of Register number"),

Wikipedia

So, yes, it's dumb

cons at least makes sense: it constructs the list

They're all opcodes in the original machine that ran Lisp.

@RobertHarvey that explains it. Stupid original LISP machine.

Not the Lisp machine. I'm guessing, but I think they were PDP-11 machine codes.

10:31 PM

Who cares. Opcodes are dumb. And for the stupid.

IBM 704 opcodes.

car and cdr ( or ) are primitive operations on cons cells (or "non-atomic S-expressions") introduced in the Lisp programming language. A cons cell is composed of two pointers; the car operation extracts the first pointer, and the cdr operation extracts the second. Thus, the expression (car (cons x y)) evaluates to x, and (cdr (cons x y)) evaluates to y. When cons cells are used to implement singly linked lists (rather than trees and other more complicated structures), the car operation returns the first element of the list, while cdr returns the rest of the list. For this reason, the o...

Under "Etymology."

well now that makes even less sense. why would someone set out to piddle in a language so high level as LISP and them name shit in LISP after low-level implementation-details

The point is, they already knew what those codes meant.

It's a technology-culture thing.

@RobertHarvey yeah well they were a bunch of jerks. If only they had SPJ to set them straight... Poor bastards.

Ok, sorry, I didn't mean to take McCarthy's name in vain.

Society of Professional Journalists?

10:34 PM

Simon Peyton Jones

Simon Peyton Jones (born in South Africa on 18 January 1958) is a British computer scientist who researches the implementation and applications of functional programming languages, particularly lazy functional programming. He is an honorary Professor of Computer Science at the University of Glasgow and supervises PhD Students at the University of Cambridge. Biography Peyton Jones graduated from Trinity College, Cambridge in 1980, He is a major contributor to the design of the Haskell programming language, and a contributor of the Glasgow Haskell Compiler (GHC). He is also co-creator o...

user20683

@JimmyHoffa McCarthy didn't implement Lisp, he just defined it

@WorldEngineer did his definition not name the s-expressions for CAR and CDR? They're pretty primitive, it's hard to define a language without naming the primitives

user20683

let me go look at the manual

Hey it all makes sense now. SPJ was born the year LISP was invented.

The gods smiled on McCarthy and gave to humanity SPJ for McCarthy's good deed.

user20683

10:47 PM

the manual is no help outside pointing to the original paper. It uses CAR but is not written by McCarthy

@WorldEngineer I suspect McCarthy named CAR and CDR, I mean his language spec really had to define primitives and give them some name, I doubt someone took his spec and renamed any of the primitives when implementing

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Original paper describes language and uses 704 as example machine

You know, people talk about how programmers would do so much better if they could think about the abstract semantic concepts instead of having to think about the implementation details of the code they would then be faster and have less errors because they could just code based on the concepts they're working with rather than based on the machine. What utter tripe. Programmers have the machine so smashed into their brains

Giving them a semantic API that allows them to interact with the abstract concepts instead of worrying about how the actual functionality is implemented beneath, they get totally confused because they don't know what is happening at the machine level, and for many programmers that's their only frame of reference for code

user20683

Most programmers are not mathematicians

I stopped reading after "Management understands" — PlasmaHH 2 hours ago

11:01 PM

@WorldEngineer I'm no mathematician, but still working with abstract concepts is not hard, it's just interesting that it's so foreign to most devs..

I never realized that before, but that's kind of the fundamental missing link people have that makes them struggle with much of these higher level concepts. When you really have to think in terms of the implementation, of course LINQ will be confusing because the mechanism that makes it work is obscured behind an abstraction that forces you to work based on semantics rather than based on machine instructions. taking a list and typing executing a .Where with a predicate does not

feel like instructing a machine, it feels like interacting with the semantics of an abstraction

the abstraction is a list, the semantics are that the list has the ability to be filtered and what that filtering means, but programmers aren't used to thinking in terms of meaning they're used to thinking in terms of steps

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I tend to find myself annoyed with python and java sometimes on account of not having as much abstraction as I might like

user20683

APL for instance automatically applies add to whatever you use it on, be it a scalar or a vector

user20683

You might find J to be tasty

11:18 PM

@JimmyHoffa For a long time, programming was very much about understanding the machine well enough so that you could extract adequate performance from it. Over time, we got optimizing compilers and better programming paradigms, and the need to know the machine well has abated.

But what remains is this uneasy feeling that something magical is happening under the covers that you don't fully understand, and have no hope of fully understanding since there are now so many layers of abstraction.

And it makes you dependent on all these people that came before you, who made decisions along the line to optimize this or that.... Were they the correct decisions? Are they appropriate for your particular application? How would you even know? How would you even begin to evaluate it?

They talk about the Technological Singularity, about how it will produce a life form that we won't have the capacity to comprehend. But we already have systems that are so complex that nobody fully understands them.

user55340

11:45 PM

... the rubik's cube question on Reddit: reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/25z4r5/… (as of this writing: 2 upvotes 4 down votes )

He does like spreading the wealth, doesn't he? "My question is so good, I need to ask it on every Internet site."

user55340

It only needs one more vote for a speedy delete here.

user55340

The other bit is it shows clearly what he did want... he wants a discussion.

OK, deleted.

user55340

Hmm... second vote was from Steve. Not a name I often see in question deletes.

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