The Whiteboard

12:38 AM

@psr this doesn't surprise me at all. the whole concept of unpaid internships is just goofy. You should have to prove that these kids are costing more than they are producing to be able to do such a thing.

My employer loves me because they get entry level engineer production from skilled labourer level pay

its just a win-win

user55340

12:54 AM

Wiki answers is creepy

user55340

I'm trying to find out the hat size for my niece. So I searched... came up with a wiki answer page.

user55340

see history to see creepy

user20683

@MichaelT Teenagers.

user20683

shakes head

amon

I like that sense of humor … I hope it is humor.

user20683

12:57 AM

@amon Not humor, teenagers.

user55340

@WorldEngineer But with those picture backdrops? That's the creepy part.

user20683

ah, I see

user20683

Large-Scale Data as Functional Programming Killer App

user20683

Something to purge the minds of us all

user55340

(My niece's birthday is coming up - last time I was down there she wanted to wear my hat and really didn't want to give it back...

Ampt

1:02 AM

lol so you're gonna get her a hat?

aren't child size one size fits all?

user55340

They are-ish... but...

Ampt

How old is your niece?

user55340

This is the type of hat I wear.

user55340

user55340

(@MattD should recognize that brand)

user20683

1:03 AM

@MichaelT ah, a geologist hat.

Ampt

MY BRAND!

user55340

Though ironically, this is made in Minnesota.

Matt D

protip: no one in civilised australia wears those

user55340

They're good hats. And I'm fairly sure of that...

Matt D

sure, but it means you're a country bumpkin here

user55340

1:04 AM

I'll remember that if I visit to switch to my fedora.

user20683

:13869300 -.-

Ampt

@WorldEngineer Sorry, sorry, drinking and making presentations for senior design haha

user55340

But anyways... she wanted my hat. They aren't quite one size fits all, and while Barmha does make a "kids-lids" series, they're only from the .au shop - not the .us shop.

user55340

( aussiebushhats.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=600 )

user55340

(hats: increased opportunity for non-verbal communication, keeps head warm in winter, avoids sunburn on receding hairline in summer, keeps head dry in rain, used for blocking sun for camera work... and given those requirements, these are the best style I've found)

user55340

1:10 AM

But anyways, its a question of is the 21.6" small small enough.

user20683

@MichaelT does she have long hair?

user55340

for a 4 year old, medium length.

user55340

(actually going with a 22.2" oilskin canvas... her father is vegan and non-animal product would make him appreciate it a bit more)

Ampt

It's like this question was made for me....

0

A: Scrum for Embedded system devices

Where I work we create embedded systems and also use scrum. You're looking at things from a technical perspective, not a feature perspective. Why do you need SPI? Is it going to be used for EEPROM so you can store serial numbers? Or maybe hook up to a display controller so users can see items o...

user55340

She'll grow into it... hats aren't things that you grow in/out of in a year with kids.

user20683

1:14 AM

@Ampt Check your punctuation.

user55340

@Ampt Hmm... 643 rep to go)

Ampt

@WorldEngineer what did I miss?

user20683

Where I work , we create embedded systems and also use scrum. I'd change and...to "using scrum."

psr

Or "despite scrum". Whatever applies.

Ampt

duly noted, making changes

2

A: Scrum for Embedded system devices

Where I work, we create embedded systems and are also using scrum for our development. You're looking at things from a technical perspective, not a feature perspective. The first thing you should ask is "Why do we need to implement this?" For example: Why do you need SPI? Is it going to be used...

better?

Matt D

1:26 AM

yeah

user20683

@Ampt yes, though you may want to fuse the last two sentences together and punctuate properly at the end.

Ampt

@MichaelT then I bounty it all away to some sucker

user55340

@Ampt You know you want to be able to say "that sucks" and cast a close vote on it.

Ampt

Psh, why do that when I can flag it and leave it for you to deal with

user55340

@Ampt Because you'll be able to do custom ~~snark~~ close messages with actual close votes and help punt things to TheWorkplace more quickly when we have that migration path.

Ampt

1:31 AM

You shan't tempt me harpy

user20683

@MichaelT we might not get that path. We don't have the ones for SU or DBA anymore

user55340

@WorldEngineer I was more joking than anything with that path...

user55340

Personally I'm for very few paths but easy to flag with information for mods that gets a special mod flag "migration!" thing for faster resolutions.

user55340

But that's my MSO pet peeve.

user20683

aye

user20683

1:34 AM

I've many peeves but most of them are subsumed by other things

user55340

Special migration flag, show the 'on topic / off topic' on the migration, and specifically describe 'why'.

user55340

Hmm... I'm surprised this isn't historically locked...

user55340

68

Q: Do good math jokes exist?

Have a good joke? Share. I know this is subjective, but the principle "should be of interest to mathematicians" trumps. (I hope.)

user55340

(digging deep into MathOverflow's early days, they have LOTS of Not Research Level questions that are open... I'd like to think that we do a better job with finding / closing / deleting them )

user20683

@MichaelT we have gnat, they do not. QED.

user55340

1:39 AM

42

A: How to respond to "I was never much good at maths at school."

user55340

That would have been flagged so fast.

user55340

Just hit mathoverflow.net/questions/tagged/… and crige

psr

@MichaelT God, it's sad. mathoverflow.net/a/44742 answers the soft "Awfully sophisticated proof for simple facts" question by mentioning someone proving 1/n summed from 1 to infinity diverges because otherwise it contradicts the dominated convergence theorem. Sheesh, it's like reading the You Tube comments on a video of Wiles explaining his proof of the Taniyama–Shimura-Weil conjecture or something.

user20683

@psr as opposed to Math's comments being the scrawlings of a hungover fratboy on his desk in Calc I

psr

@WorldEngineer Yes. It's funny that mathoverflow's drivel is as far over my head as it is.

user55340

1:50 AM

(finding their old questions, I really don't feel bad about up voting their hot questions)

user55340

44

A: Do good math jokes exist?

Based on the answers above, no.

psr

@MichaelT It's undecidable in ZFC. Hah! I can do unfunny math jokes too.

user20683

In other news, I might finally have figured out a direction to go to Grad School for :)

user20683

still brewing it but it shows promise (yes, cryptic, meh)

Ampt

@WorldEngineer You're gonna become a brewer for grad school? also that was Post #13870000

user55340

2:01 AM

@WorldEngineer Still brewing... hmm...

user55340

Note this also fits in with the religious studies classes...

user55340

2

Ampt

@MichaelT PREACH!

user55340

Sorry, but I'm a cider fan.

user15026

2:05 AM

@MichaelT I like both. :D

user55340

►

user55340

@AshleyNunn Wyders... product of Canada... though I only found it in California.

user15026

@MichaelT I've not had that one (I am not sure if it made it to this side of the country), but I have had similar.

user55340

Back at the pub I went to, there was an entertainer who would sing that song (youtube video) - he'd do a falsetto when necessary. Sometimes when he didn't hit the right notes he'd tighten up his pants dramatically during the next bit to do them 'right'.

user55340

(the tangent thought was the "he drinks a ____ drink" we were to hold the appropriate drink in the air)

Ampt

5:20 AM

@MichaelT how do I change the look of a JetBrains IDE? I'm finding that all the font is about 2 points smaller than I would like

can't seem to find any sort of setting to change that unfortunately

Hmmm I may have found it. Lots of settings to tinker with

MetaFight

1:34 PM

Any scrummers around?

The hackspace I've recently joined is considering using Scrum for some of its internal projects. Because the team members are essentially volunteers, and because we have no deadline (soft or hard) I was wondering how to make it fit.

I think we could benefit from the retrospective and requirements gathering rituals, but I don't think timeboxed sprints will make sense for us. We're not reporting progress to anybody, so velocity isn't really any of our concern. If I understand scrum correctly, the whole concept of velocity is more for the PM and PO than for the devs and testers... so can we get by without it?

Actually, would this be an OK question for the site, or would it be offtopic? It wouldn't necessarily have a very wide audience.

user41796

2:43 PM

@MetaFight I think you have narrowed it down enough so that it's answerable. And you've already started weighing the pro's & con's of the decision.

user41796

@MichaelT The pictures they put behind those questions was wretchedly creepy, yes.

user41796

I could have seen some of those questions as age-appropriate self-doubt or curiosity. But the "suggested" askers just made it ... wrong.

gnat

2:57 PM

@RobertHarvey at SO, your favorite close reason doesn't look popular :)

stackoverflow.com/questions/6600718/… "@gnat do people ask "name that TV show" questions on stack overflow? They're pretty popular (even have a tag) on scifi :)"

user55340

@gnat Each SE site is different and the community is different. Ask Different and TeX allow "big list" questions for example that would get closed in a heartbeat on other sites.

user55340

I don't see a problem with that - gaming has one set of restrictions for "name that game", sci-fi has another for "name that story", and we have another for "name that pattern"

user55340

Incidentally... thats where most of my sci-fi rep comes from

user55340

2

A: Name of book similar to Joe Haldeman's "The Coming"

You are likely looking for the series of books which is the Trigon Disunity published from 1985 to 1987. The first book, Emprise - though the cover you likely remember is: The Wikipedia Summary of the book is: The world has been devastated by the Food and Fuel Wars turning once-powerful ...

gnat

3:13 PM

@MichaelT I tend to believe that this is rather to eroded quality norms at SO, one would rather expect concrete programming questions to fall under umbrella of guessing game guidance

@MichaelT shame on you. :) I also have a bit (hopefully a little bit) of repz coming from early answers to questions that I wouldn't answer if I knew better

user55340

@gnat The other bit comes from "find some official dune artwork"

user55340

4

A: Dune "official" artwork

There is a Frank Herbert book titled Eye published in 1985 (wikipedia amazon) Within this book was a short illustrated story titled The Road to Dune (not to be confused with the novel) (dune wiki). The story contained a number of full page drawings that accompanied it. From Dune Wiki an example...

gnat

@MichaelT resource request, oy wey

user55340

Thing is, on a site that has 1/2 the size of P.SE, such questions can be managed well.

gnat

@gnat I agree with your assessment of this question but I'm not convinced that "name that thing" questions should be off-topic. They're not considered off-topic on two of the sites Jeff mentioned in his post because those communities consider them valid questions. I've opened a question on meta to clarify: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/222239/… — Michael Edenfield 6 mins ago

5

Q: Are "guessing game" questions off-topic?

I recently came upon this question in the close-vote queue and I'm struggling to figure out what to do with it. As @gnat correctly points out in the comments, this is obviously a "name that thing" question, which Jeff Atwood calls "guessing game" questions in his blog post. All of the reasoning ...

discussion close-reasons off-topic

@MichaelT I'd add, at site that can protect itself from lemmings waves coming from hot list...

user55340

3:19 PM

But if you go to gaming, they've got twice as many questions as we do... and so even stricter "name that thing" requirements.

gnat

@MichaelT guess their stricter reqs are because they suffered more than us

user41796

@gnat Woah, Woah, Woah there. We haven't suffered enough?!

user20683

@GlenH7 Imagine a 1000 monkeys asking about half remembered games from the 80s

3

user41796

> "What pattern should I use for this?"
"Is this a pattern?"
"What's the name of this pattern?"

user41796

But I get your point

user55340

3:29 PM

Advice - identical questions - which way to dup?

user55340

36

Q: What does the Jamie Zawinski's quotation about regular expressions mean?

In a message to comp.emacs.xemacs, Jamie Zawinski once said: Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems. I've always had trouble understanding what he was getting at. What does he mean by this? Update The answer th...

quotations regular-expressions

user55340

93

Q: What is meant by "Now you have two problems"?

There is a popular quote by Jamie Zawinski: Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems. How is this quote supposed to be understood?

regular-expressions language-discussion

user41796

@MichaelT in general, I like newest => oldest or lesser views => higher views.

user55340

@GlenH7 The problem is, those are opposite conditions here.

user55340

Older: +36, 3.9k views. Newer: +93, 11k views

user41796

3:30 PM

bleh

user41796

merge request then? :-)

user55340

Could do it - there's no accepted answers on either of them to conflict with.

user41796

I think that would push things into the land of CW status. Not necessarily a bad thing in this case

user55340

back in ~15-30 (meeting)

gnat

@GlenH7 we had a better stuff to suffer from. "What is the best way to pick your nose as a programmer?"

user41796

3:35 PM

@gnat in binary, of course.

gnat

@GlenH7 oh but... I have a mouse in one hand, a keyboard in another. How do I???

user41796

(flags as not constructive)

gnat

5

Q: Duplicates where the newer question is the more valuable one

These two questions: q1, q2 appear to be duplicates. In my opinion, the newer question is better than the older one. How should we handle cases like this? Related Questions How to handle duplicates

discussion exact-duplicates

Workplace is preparing to graduation, a smell of napalm... :)

5

Q: Graduation, Privileges, and Deletion

Graduation is coming. Deletion of -1 scored answers is going from a 4,000 reputation privilege to a 20,000 reputation privilege. Time for some easy cleanup. Please: Vote on the post Improve if you think it can be saved If it can't be improved: Vote to close (for questions) or vote to delete...

support faq-proposed graduation

user41796

@gnat I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

user55340

back.

user41796

3:46 PM

Meta guidance is to play eeney meeny miny moe

user55340

Reading the two versions of the question and answers, I'd argue the newer one tends to be the better one.

user55340

From the old question:

user55340

> The answer that I'm looking for is one which explains what the 2nd problem is. Most answers below are that regexes are hard, which doesn't seem to fit the question.

user41796

reasonable enough

user41796

I think a merge may be in order too, but I dunno

user55340

3:50 PM

Well, it needs to be duped first to merge...

gnat

don't you love when an answer from a newcomer bumps questions like this:

33

Q: When is it reasonable to create my own programming language?

Are there types of killer applications, classes of algorithmic problems, etc., where it is better, in the long run, to create my own language? PS: Just to be sure, I mean a new programming language and a compiler, not a new compiler for an existing language. EDIT: Thank you for the answers. Can...

programming-languages dsl

> Can you provide some examples, where it is absolutly unnecessary to create a DSL or cases in which a DSL might be a good idea?

user55340

There's the close to dup on the old -> new one cast if any want to pile on.

user55340

36

Q: What does the Jamie Zawinski's quotation about regular expressions mean?

In a message to comp.emacs.xemacs, Jamie Zawinski once said: Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems. I've always had trouble understanding what he was getting at. What does he mean by this? Update The answer th...

quotations regular-expressions

gnat

@MichaelT I flagged for mods to take a look, referring to our discussion here; maybe they will merge

user55340

@gnat you notice the cycle of things in these questions...

user55340

3:52 PM

-2

A: When is it reasonable to create my own programming language?

I wise man once said: Some people, when confronted with a problem, think “I know, I'll use regular expressions.” Now they have two problems.

user55340

(just for a bit of irony / coincidence / whatever ELU suggests this actually is)

user55340

(btw, thats a good 20k target)

user41796

@MichaelT Now it's in the delete queue waiting for you. :-)

gnat

►

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT When you haven't found a better way to prove your absolute insanity.

user55340

4:01 PM

@JimmyHoffa There is that codeless code on the subject...

user55340

thecodelesscode.com/case/107

user55340

>
“It must be suitable enterprise-wide,” the stranger replied, “client-side and server-side, in scripting, in shells and in spreadsheet cells. I need it real-time, multi-threaded and optionally object-oriented; with garbage collection, deadlock detection, custom exceptions, auto-resizing arrays of things and regular expressions for matching strings. I want the simplicity of BASIC, the purity of Smalltalk, the brevity of Haskell, the speed of C, the consistency of Lisp, the readability of Python, the flexibility of Perl, and the portability of... Java, I guess, but with native code bindings …

Jimmy Hoffa

Your idea is the right way. Sounds like this question is a case of Rubber Duck Problem Solving — Jimmy Hoffa 8 secs ago

Robert Harvey

@gnat Gilles has made a career out of being contrary on Stack Overflow, especially when I'm around. Just about the only thing I agree with him about is that SO's obsession with "demonstration of effort" is just that: an obsession.

I don't much mind him voicing his opinion on Meta, but since he's a moderator on other sites, he will voice his opinions in the Teacher's Lounge, where he appears to carry the weight of a Stack Overflow moderator, but he's not.

Then again, maybe I'm the one who's being contrary. In the TL, though, I'd prefer it if he let the SO mods decide for themselves.

user55340

4:20 PM

The important thing to look at with any of these obsessions and community norms is to look at how and why they evolved to where they are now.

user41796

@RobertHarvey And he missed the nomination window for this round of elections.

Robert Harvey

He probably didn't want it. :)

user41796

It would cut into contrarian time

user55340

SO's "show your work" has come about because of the constant onslaught of "give me the codez" and I fear what would happen to SO if they somehow backed off of that... while the obsession isn't great, what its trying to prevent is awful.

user55340

Our issue name that thing and recommend software came about because of our onslaught of "what is this called" or "here's some code, what pattern is it" and "what software does this for me?"

user55340

4:23 PM

It takes a very hard look at a question to see that while it is such, it does have a quality to it that will allow it to get good answers and avoid the poor ones.

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT Closed as dupe. Will wait to see if anyone objects to the closure (a week?), and then merge.

user55340

@YannisRizos No problem at all. While I don't mind the rep for it, I'm disappointed I didn't find the dup for it at the start.

user41796

@YannisRizos I'd object just on the principle of the matter, but I'm already on record as being in favor of the merge. So I'd just look dumb.

Robert Harvey

The problem with "what have you tried?" is that it changes SO from a repository of useful programming information to a highly-localized problem troubleshooting platform. Name identification questions are problematic in the same way: they're only useful to the asker.

user55340

@RobertHarvey I'd contend that adding the 'whyt' to the question means that I, the person looking for a solution can look to see if the code is what matches mine... since I have found times where there are two questions with two different answers with each looking to be the same problem on the surface.

Yannis Rizos

4:26 PM

@GlenH7 Your objection is noted. Deletion of your account is now in the queue, enjoy your last hours on the site.

3

user41796

Might as well pin that since it will be one of my last

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT The problem, of course, is that your code never matches anyone else's

Of course, that's what Stack Overflow is: a troubleshooting platform. So all we've really done is cut the forum noise down, but you still have tons of obscure questions to sift through to see if one fits your particular problem.

@GlenH7: It was nice knowing you. :P

user55340

@RobertHarvey Sometimes its pretty close to what the other person has. This is often more prevelant with configuration rather than code problems though. The Spring / Hibernate nightmares.

user41796

Thanks. I think running afoul of Yannis was inevitable.

user55340

@GlenH7 at least you didn't annoy Community.

user41796

4:28 PM

@MichaelT Never got to mod elections to try that one out....

user41796

I wonder if I have enough time to bounty Ampt over 3k before my time runs out. Or if the bounties would even stick...

user55340

They would go when the account is deleted.

user55340

Makes people sad... though on the other hand, SE does have issues when a high voter account disappears because of all the rep recals.

user41796

<shrugs shoulders> Oh well, at least I thought of it.

user55340

@GlenH7 btw, its interesting seeing the 20k voters show up on answers - that one you did a vote on has haylem in there too.

user55340

4:33 PM

Hmm... a test question for those "review" thoughts.

user55340

0

Q: Feedback on a Kanban Board for Solution Architectects

Before I get started I need to issue a pre-emptive apology: It is very likely that some of the terminology / vocabulary I use in this post is plain wrong there is also a good chance I have entirely misinterpreted some of the keys aspects. I am new to this so don't be too critical, more than ...

architecture agile kanban

user55340

Its a feedback / review type question... but man is it ever well done.

user41796

@MichaelT I may be subject to confirmation bias, but the impression I have is that we continue to see increased community involvement with keeping the site clear of broken windows.

user55340

When one is aware that people do clean up the windows, they are more likely to help out with an additional vote?

user41796

@MichaelT That's what I think, yes.

user41796

4:36 PM

And our clean-up efforts have been mentioned in a number of places by a variety of folk. So I think a natural inclination is to be a part of that effort to reflect their contribution to the community.

Robert Harvey

Yannis posted a question awhile back that had some graphs on it that basically demonstrated that traffic improved only after the site had finally been cleaned up. I'm not sure if causation was fully demonstrated there, but it was persuasive.

user55340

On that Kanban one... I think that if it was a code question and posted to code review, it would be quite happy there. Thus as a design / process / methodology question of similar rigor, it should be acceptable here.

user55340

We might do with a mod notice of "long answers appreciated" on it.

user41796

Traffic is up;
quality of questions (that we allow to stick around) is up;
participation from experts in the field is up;
overall community review seems to be up.
Not saying we're perfect and there are probably areas where we could keep getting better, but indicators are good.

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT I wonder if PM.SE is the more suitable site for that one...

user55340

4:38 PM

@YannisRizos I'd certainly float it by them to see if they want it.

user55340

(on RPG.SE, when they get a 'recommend a game for me', the mods quickly jump on it and add a set of comments about "this is what is necessary to answer this question without getting your answer deleted")

user41796

The kanban question is good; just not a great fit for Prog.

user55340

@GlenH7 If PM.SE doesn't want it, I'd contend it should stay open here... though I also suspect that they'd be silly to not want a question of such quality.

user55340

However, I'd also use that as an example of what we would need/require/want for a design review that has been a problematic bouncing of migrations in the past.

Robert Harvey

Are Kanban and Scrum really unique, from a project management standpoint, or are they merely flavors of XP?

user41796

4:45 PM

@RobertHarvey Yes, they're unique

user41796

From a taxonomy point of view, you can certainly paint them within the XP / Agile camp(s)

user41796

But they have separate nuances & focuses that make them unique

user55340

@RobertHarvey Kanban is doable (came from) non-programming.

user41796

Impression I have is most folk migrate from Scrum => Kanban

user55340

Its actually from the manufacturing world.

user55340

4:47 PM

Kanban

(literally signboard or billboard) is a scheduling system for lean and just-in-time (JIT) production. Kanban is a system to control the logistical chain from a production point of view, and is not an inventory control system. Kanban was developed by Taiichi Ohno, at Toyota, to find a system to improve and maintain a high level of production. Kanban is one method through which JIT is achieved. Kanban became an effective tool in support of running a production system as a whole, and it proved to be an excellent way for promoting improvement. Problem areas were highlighted by reducing the...

user41796

Scrum has some limitations that can make it a frustrating development process

Robert Harvey

Ah, yes. Another construction metaphor for software development.

user41796

And there I go for the day. Torqued Yannis. And now I'm starting a flame war with the Agile-istas. Probably just as well that my account is about to be nuked.

user55340

Kanban has its focus on limiting work in progress - be it "how many cars are partly done" or "this is how much stuff we've got partially coded"

user55340

As such, it can (kan?) be applied to any process where there's a constant flow of things in and out and you want to work on those things that are in progress as efficiently as possible.

Robert Harvey

4:49 PM

Sounds a little like CCPM. That's the management flavor of the week where I work.

user55340

Conceptually, I quite like the kanban + scrum combination.

user41796

I think kanban is good for the folk who freak out about having PBI's bleed over into another sprint

user55340

One of the things you often see with software metholdogies is a pooling up of things at the bottlenecks... I'd like to say "often QA" there... but they could be any number of places.

user55340

Scrum-ban : leansoftwareengineering.com/ksse/scrum-ban

user55340

Former employer, we'd have a dozen issues getting fixed in a release... and then QA would suddenly get hit with them all at once and wouldn't do a good job testing any of them.

Robert Harvey

4:53 PM

Isn't that just a time management problem?

user55340

The kanban approach to it would show the 'work in progress' get piled up at the "to be tested" spot and force people to actually test things before they could do a pull of another issue into the system.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT That used to happen on some projects here. But one brave lead decided to move toward iterative testing. Of course, QA can't sign off on a release until...well, the release. But they can test and say "yep, that feature works" or "yep, that defect has been fixed" a lot quicker.

Robert Harvey

Ah, I see.

Thomas Owens

Both Software and SQA are happier.

Robert Harvey

We use "waterfagile" where I work.

user55340

4:54 PM

Part of it also is that when QA found a bug in something that was done 2 weeks ago, it was hard to go back and fix it.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT The thing is that work doesn't "get piled up". Eventually, you stop doing work because it can't move downstream.

user55340

Well, it prevents the pile up in the first place.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Is that like a clusterfagile?

Jimmy Hoffa

> waterfragile

user55340

The thing was that when QA found the bug 2 weeks after you had the question of "do we go back and fix it and delay the release, or release with the bug?"

user41796

4:56 PM

Since I'm clearly in the mood to take flak today -- I still like Unified Process and RUP.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 My problem with RUP is that it's often pushed with the tools.

At least, I've never seen the RUP process isolated from the Rational tool suite.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey the thing in my book that distinguishes XP from scrum, kanban, et al, is it prescribes development techniques while scrum/kanban only prescribe planning approaches. XP is far less about project management, it's more about a way to approach the actual practice of coding; using pairing, writing unit tests, doing close coder-collaboration during implementation and lots of team whiteboarding, constant refactoring etc

user41796

@ThomasOwens Yeah, that's .... problematic. Especially since the tools aren't cheap. But UP represents a good balance between waterfall & agile, IMO. You get more documentation and thought ahead of time, but not the silly nature of waterfall of starting all over whenever something changes.

Jimmy Hoffa

Scrum/Kanban says nothing about any of those techniques, at all.

At the same time XP says nearly nothing about planning/estimation etc

user41796

@ThomasOwens I haven't either. And it's almost always a guarantee that the shop uses Rational tooling

Thomas Owens

4:58 PM

Agree/Disagree: "Agile is not a lifecycle model."

user41796

@ThomasOwens I think that point is lost upon the agile-istas though.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens Model? Nah... maybe an unfinished one

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Gotcha.

user41796

And the fact that it isn't a lifecycle model is one of the biggest issues with it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 It prescribes constraints that life-cycle models should meet.

user41796

5:00 PM

How so?

Robert Harvey

Well, agile is mostly a set of principles correct? To paraphrase: "The customer never knows what they want, so you have to develop software in an iterative way with continuous customer involvement, so that you're both always on the same page."

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 It doesn't say how things should be delivered quickly and frequently, it says they should be.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Waterfall could never be agile. However, evolutionary prototyping, evolutionary delivery, and some implementations of spiral can be.

Jimmy Hoffa

You can come up with numerous life-cycle models that will meet that constraint in different ways

Thomas Owens

But they don't have to be.

user41796

5:02 PM

Those are good points; and I think I'm blurring the declared path of agile vs. how I've seen it implemented. Which is a bit unfair to do

Jimmy Hoffa

For instance; This meets agile: Hire 200 mega-cheap developers, put them all in random 6 man teams, give them all the same project, at the end of 2 weeks take the one that works, then hand it out to all teams and give them the next set of deliverables and repeat. Ensure they all work as many hours as possible. This will ensure frequent quick feature delivery to stakeholers.

Robert Harvey

Really?

Jimmy Hoffa

Agile: The Slavepit Model

Robert Harvey

Where's the customer feedback loop?

user55340

Hmm... I've seen A/B teams... that would be an A..Z approach.

user55340

5:05 PM

@RobertHarvey Each iteration you have the customer test all N versions and select the one they like.

Robert Harvey

It may be agile, but it's certainly not lean.

user55340

Then you rehand that base product back out to the teams (shuffle again?) and have them do it again.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I was just illustrating that a model can be crazy and meet one of the Agile rules, I didn't show how it would meet any of the others; the purpose being to show how Agile is a set of constraints, not a model.

Robert Harvey

I see.

user55340

It appears to meet 3 out of 4 without problem.

user55340

5:06 PM

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
Working software over comprehensive documentation
Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
Responding to change over following a plan

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens You surely know all this way better than me - am I off in my understanding?

user55340

working software, collaboration, responding to change.

user55340

You also have the solution to the bus factor.

Thomas Owens

I'm beginning to think that big-a Agile is a myth.

enderland

.... I don't think hiring 200 slave devs who never learn enough to be at all experts is the solution to the bus factor @MichaelT

Jimmy Hoffa

5:07 PM

@MichaelT What you're saying is something I already know; The Slavepit Model is a highly elastic modern day project driving Agile model of the highest eloquence and quality.

user55340

Its an ideal that was posed by a bunch of consultants who wanted to milk the contract of customers who didn't know what they wanted as long as they can by "formalizing" it.

Jimmy Hoffa

I think I'll go write a document and get The Slavepit Model published in Project Managers Sprintly

user55340

@enderland When working with overseas outsource, this is remarkably accurate.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Or a means of survival, depending on how you look at it.

user55340

Ive seen projects that have nearly 75% turnover in their staff every 6 months over the course of a 2 year project.

enderland

5:08 PM

@MichaelT yeah as I wrote that I was thinking. holy shit this is basically how outsourced dev projects work

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens What's "big-a" Agile?

enderland

or, don't work, as often is the case

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Yeah, that was the tongue in cheek implication of what I was suggesting :P

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Sort of like Democrat is Big L Liberal.

Jimmy Hoffa

I guarantee that many of those outsource sweatshops claim they're "Agile" too in just this way :)

user55340

5:10 PM

You've got the Platonic (philsophy, not dating) Ideal of Agile.

enderland

34 degrees and a thunderstorm. this is going to end not well

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey If I understood this statement would I be offended? I'll just imagine you're talking about beer commercials again.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Agile like the manifesto. As opposed to little a agile which is a more realistic idea of understanding how software development works and how to respond to changing conditions.

user55340

@enderland Don't forget frozen ground.

Robert Harvey

@ThomasOwens This. The ideal vs the reality.

enderland

5:11 PM

I'm excited @MichaelT who knows what the afternoon will bring!

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens Oh, well yeah the reality of software industry is to meet 40% of 40% of principles, but 100% of no principle, and definitely not 100% of principles.

user55340

@enderland Floods.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Meteorologists.

Robert Harvey

Bam! Oded strikes again.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey Should change his name to Oden.

user41796

5:12 PM

Thor.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa and make his avy a lightning bolt

user55340

It is Thor's day... perfect for a thunderstorm.

Thomas Owens

Agile Unified Process

Agile Unified Process (AUP) is a simplified version of the IBM Rational Unified Process (RUP) developed by Scott Ambler. It describes a simple, easy to understand approach to developing business application software using agile techniques and concepts yet still remaining true to the RUP. The AUP applies agile techniques including test driven development (TDD), Agile Modeling, agile change management, and database refactoring to improve productivity. In 2012 the AUP was superseded by Disciplined Agile Delivery. Since then work has ceased on evolving AUP. Discipline Unlike the RUP, ...

Wait...superseded?

Disciplined Agile Delivery

Disciplined Agile Delivery (DAD) is a process decision framework that enables simplified process decisions around incremental and iterative solution delivery. DAD builds on the many practices espoused by advocates of Agile Software Development, including Scrum, Agile Modeling, Lean Software Development, and others. The primary reference for Disciplined Agile Delivery is the book of same name, written by Scott Ambler and Mark Lines. In particular, DAD has been identified as a means of moving beyond Scrum. According to Cutter Senior Consultant Bhuvan Unhelkar, "The DAD framework provid...

Well, I may have to investigate this. I like discipline.

Anyway, to be agile, you must have an iterative and incremental lifecycle model. However, having an iterative and incremental lifecycle model does not mean you are agile if you require comprehensive documentation and planning.

user41796

Is that AUP article saying Ambler invented AUP or RUP? I'd believe the first, but not the second.

user55340

I work in a 'posse' methodology. (posse being the collective term for cowboy)

Thomas Owens

5:17 PM

@GlenH7 Ambler developed AUP. It's missing commas before is and after (RUP).

Although he did/does work for IBM. He may be somewhat involved in RUP as well?

user41796

@ThomasOwens thanks. That's how I was wanting to read it to but was left saying WAT?

user41796

Didn't know that he had worked there. I hadn't heard his name in conjunction with the rational guys.

Thomas Owens

I think, anyway. Maybe he was just a consultant at IBM? I know his name has come up in connection with IBM before. Or I'm just insane.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT That's here as well. I'd be more bothered if it weren't a small team with no bad developers.

Thomas Owens

www-01.ibm.com/software/rational/bios/ambler.html

user41796

5:19 PM

@ThomasOwens Jacobson is credited with the core of RUP in the wikipedia article.

Thomas Owens

It looks like he worked at IBM, but not on RUP.

user41796

While IBM picked up Booch at the same time, I don't believe Booch had done much process work. His focus was architecture and how to express OO models (UML)

user55340

2 node, 4 java (or 3.5 java, 0.5 python), and 1 mobil. We have our own areas of the application and get agreement on how we work together - the framework is already there.

Thomas Owens

Dammit, Oded. Beating me to the close.

user55340

The biggest arguments are had between mobile and node about the database backing the data (the noders tend to be mongo because of the interface they have access to)

Jimmy Hoffa

5:20 PM

@MichaelT Aye, same except we're more homogenous here. All enterprisey .NET stack folks - 5 of us, 4 at the end of this week.

user41796

It's fun watching diamonds fight for FCITW

Thomas Owens

I need to read that Kanban question in more detail.

user55340

@ThomasOwens Its a really well written question.

Thomas Owens

But Yannis is proposing a move. I don't like moving methodology questions to PM. I don't know what's going to happen when PM comes out of beta.

I made my rep here on process and methodology questions.

enderland

awww yeah some light hail here now, this was a wonderful day to work from home

user55340

5:23 PM

It may work there, but again they may say no (they don't want to be a ProcessReview.SE site - it could overwhelm them if they're not ready for it).

user41796

It seems to be a really good question. Just not a perfect fit for Progs. But I have no qualms about being jealous of our site and keeping it here either if we can get some solid answers to it.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:37 PM

Started snowing like crazy last night out of the blue, lasted like 2 hours then just ceased. Today's not half bad.

user55340

> It might even be permissible for the interpreter to set such code on fire.

user55340

1

A: How does BASIC locate an out-of-order NEXT statement when the loop body is skipped

What the "101 Computer Games" BASIC does The dialect of BASIC used in the Microcomputer edition of "101 Computer Games" will execute the body of a FOR...NEXT loop at least once. This does differ from BASIC-80 v. 5. From p. i12, listing exceptions to "normal" BASIC: FOR...TO...STEP As in s...

Jimmy Hoffa

6:08 PM

braveclojure.com

Seems like a nice online book

Step one is get everything working in Emacs, so you know they're doing things right there

psr

Advice question. I've currently got a browser talking via an "API" to the server. API is scare quoted because the API really wouldn't support another user interface very well, because it consists of every call our UI happens to need, in the form it happens to need it, and nothing else. Which could be fine. However, we are starting to have calls along the lines of "GetUserSummaryData", "GetUserHisFriendsAndHisPurchases", "GetUserAndHisPurchases". Note that on the server a more reasonable API is written, (and the current API calls just cause the server to wire those together) it's just …

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I'll look at it...

user55340

@psr I've seen a parameter object approach.

user55340

Where you send from browser to server getStuff(set of things I want) and the server returns back just those things.

psr

@MichaelT Currently most of the calls pass 1 JSON object with everything needed.

@MichaelT Oh. Note the dependency issue. You often need something from call 1 as a param to call 2. Not insurmountable, but you need to program a way to specify that.

That's what I would call the batching mechanism.

user55340

6:13 PM

The linkages between the systems would be done on the function aggregator.

user55340

You could even make it "smart" by having a "for this call I need these things, so even if they don't want back XYZ, I need to get XYZ from over there using ABC that was passed in")

psr

@MichaelT So you would advocate what I was calling the "batching system"?

user55340

Yep.

user55340

And it could be a good main site question too.

psr

@MichaelT Why? (To me it seems like you get a cleaner API that might end up easier to maintain, and a third party could write a new UI without changing the server are the advantages with the disadvantage being one more thing to implement and maintain, but I'd like your opinion).

I guess I'll post it anyway. So you might as well get delete-vote dollars for it if you answer.

user55340

6:26 PM

There's a trade off between single entry vs a bunch of calls. Each has its advantage and disadvantage.

user55340

When you start getting functions like getUserSummaryData and GetUserHisFriendsAndHisPurchases, it seems like you're on the road to having a... very large api that becomes difficult to maintain on the browser.

user55340

Providing a single API place could allow for easier testing to make sure that when you call this with these params, you get the right thing back.

user55340

 int temp=count % 5;
 if(temp != 0)
{
  int temp-add= 5-temp;
  for(I=count;I<count+temp-add;I++)
target[I]='z';
  count=count+temp-add;
}

user55340

It makes me cry to see that code.

user41796

@MichaelT I'm not really sure what it's even trying to do. Failed fizzbuzz solution?

Jimmy Hoffa

6:36 PM

@MichaelT starting to kind of dig into that book just because it would be nice to know at least enough about clojure to know off-hand like how clojurists do zipWith for instance

just the basic stuff that you do all the time in FP like that so I don't have to keep looking it up everytime I want to fiddle with clojure

user41796

There's not much room left in my brain, I'm afraid.

user55340

@GlenH7 int temp-add= 5-temp; o_O

user41796

I'd ding them for not accounting for the %3 case as well as the %3 && %5 case. :-P

amon

6:53 PM

There are enough languages where temp-add would be a valid identifier. I don't know any C-like ones, though.

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