The Whiteboard

user41796

7:00 PM

@Ampt k. I'll flag accordingly...

@GlenH7 it's likely... to happen a week, or maybe month, or maybe a year after it leaves hot list. As of now, lemmings crap is much more likely, you know :)

user55340

@gnat Possibly... though I'll leave that up to another (I don't like giving the impression that I'm protecting my answer)

user41796

@gnat I would protect it, except that the question isn't old enough

Ampt

@GlenH7 I seriously missed the edit window by a few seconds. Was gonna snatch in an edit at the last second and make you look silly

user41796

I should have x2 checked the age before I asked my question

gnat

7:02 PM

@GlenH7 I see. Okay, I'll flag

user41796

@Ampt TOO LATE. TOO CHATTY

Ampt

@GlenH7 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

user41796

@Ampt You missed the leading "No" and trailing "n"

user41796

@gnat I just looked at the privileges page, and it looks like only a mod can protect within the first 2 days. The 20k page doesn't say anything about quicker protections

user41796

Is an invariant array the opposite of a covariant array?

user55340

7:15 PM

@Ampt In specialized writing, yes. For a tech writer, having TeX means that you've got the variety and technology part more thorough than the other candidates.

Ampt

@GlenH7 This is one of the reasons that Linear Programming frustrated me. The lack of cohesion from one source to another on names

user41796

@Ampt thanks. I'll find a different phrasing then. I'm trying to edit the array store performance question. (I'll drop a link shortly)

Ampt

@GlenH7 uh wait. That wasn't an answer. I have no clue if those are equal.

I just know that I came across terms I'd never heard of when googling for some more info than my book provided

but they were used to reference the same things I had seen

user41796

@Ampt "answer is murky" is close enough of an answer for me. If they aren't clearcut opposites, then I need to rephrase the sentence.

user41796

And don't worry, I'll blame you for any resulting lack of clarity from my edit. :-)

user41796

7:21 PM

39

Q: Can modern OO languages compete with C++'s array store performance?

I just noticed that every modern OO programming language that I am at least somewhat familiar with (which is basically just Java, C# and D) allows covariant arrays. That is, a string array is an object array: Object[] arr = new String[2]; // Java, C# and D allow this Covariant arrays are a h...

user41796

I don't really like the edit that much, but it's better than what was there

user15026

@MichaelT that is a good idea, I am just not sure how to go about learning it.

user55340

@RobertHarvey thank you for the edit.

Robert Harvey

NP

user55340

@AshleyNunn Well, there's...

user55340

7:25 PM

$TeX - LaTeX$

user55340

tex.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/learning

user55340

158

Q: What is the best book to start learning LaTeX?

Which book (free or otherwise) was the most useful to you when you started learning LaTeX? I am frequently asked this question by friends who want to learn LaTeX, and I recommend the book which got me started, The Not So Short Introduction to LaTeX2ε, but I feel that there might be better option...

learning tutorials books

user55340

42

Q: What is the best way to learn TeX?

As opposed to LaTeX, which is addressed in another question. Most of the references I've seen get too complex too quickly. I'm looking for something that gives me a top-down view of the language - what the parts of a document are and how (and when) each is processed before proceeding to infinite...

tex-core programming learning

user55340

Just start out by rewriting your resume in it. Its a complex enough thing that it won't be a trivial one, but yet not math crazy.

user41796

@MichaelT We ought to start a collection for her and buy her first bottle of tequila if she's going to dive into TeX...

user41796

7:27 PM

(I jest)

user20683

Afternoon. I see you lot managed to not completely burn down everything while I was away.

user15026

I should have guessed we would have the information somewhere! :D I will take a look at it when I actually get out of bed.

user55340

@FrostEngineer We tried.

user41796

@FrostEngineer We managed to make Thomas pretend to be mad with snarky comments we made (and then deleted)

user41796

So it wasn't a complete waste

user15026

7:28 PM

@GlenH7 hey if learning this gets me tequila I am happy. :p

user20683

Fair enough

user41796

@AshleyNunn You may want some, yes...

user55340

Got a question on the collider...

user55340

I wonder if we could persuade Yannis to learn TeX.

user15026

@GlenH7 Now you are making me worry :p

user55340

7:29 PM

And its not like we're suggesting you learn *roff.

user55340

Nroff

nroff (short for "new roff") is a Unix text-formatting program. It produces output suitable for simple fixed-width printers and terminal windows. It is an integral part of the Unix help system, being used to format man pages for display. History nroff was written by Joe Ossanna in 1973, in Assembly language and then ported to C. It was a descendant of the RUNOFF program from CTSS, the first computerized text-formatting program, and is a predecessor of the Unix troff document processing system. There is also a free software version of nroff in the groff package. Variants The Minix...

user15026

I am not sure what that is, I suspect that is for the best.

user41796

@AshleyNunn any layout language is going to be complex and a bit arcane at points. But that's also part of the tech writing world. Layouts need a degree of complexity...

user55340

Note the new version was written in 1973.

user41796

@MichaelT part of me says that should immediately be flagged as offensive

user15026

7:30 PM

@GlenH7 yeah, it's part of what I am hoping to eventually sign up for. Yay me. :p

user55340

TYPSET and RUNOFF

RUNOFF was the first computer text formatting program to see significant use. It was written in 1964 for the CTSS operating system by Jerome H. Saltzer in MAD assembler. It actually consisted of a pair of programs, TYPSET (which was basically a document editor), and RUNOFF (the output processor). RUNOFF had support for pagination and headers, as well as text justification (TJ-2 appears to have been the earliest text justification system, but it did not have the other capabilities). RUNOFF is a direct predecessor of the runoff document formatting program of Multics, which in turn was the a...

user41796

@MichaelT quit scaring folk. You're likely to reference RPG next...

user55340

Nah... just amused at tracking that back through history.

user15026

Wow, I understand like none of the words in those articles.

user41796

@AshleyNunn start with LaTeX. When you're thinking "wow, why is this so horribly complicated? Surely someone came up with something easier!" then revisit that trip down memory lane.

user55340

7:32 PM

@AshleyNunn Any particular ones that confuse you more than others?

user41796

You'll see that Tex is the simplified version.

user41796

And RPG-IV is still somewhat popular in places with medium sized manufacturing backed by iSeries

user55340

(I'd honestly say for those wiki articles, you can replace anything that is in all caps with "something old that isn't necessary to know")

user20683

Fortran is useful. FORTRAN is obsolete unless you work in Nuclear plants.

user55340

@FrostEngineer Or high precision things that some "engineers" use.

user20683

7:38 PM

@MichaelT Yeah but Matlab can generally fill in

user20683

which is a pity because it's a pita

user55340

There's some optimizations that have been done on some dialects of fortran that is very impressive for huge calculation problems.

user15026

@MichaelT ah and those were the words I didn't really know.

Thomas Owens

I think Stack Overflow deleted my awesome MATLAB question.

user20683

@ThomasOwens Because Stack Overflow hates fun.

user20683

7:39 PM

:P

user41796

@FrostEngineer sometimes just much easier to go with Fortran. We've got a mongo app here written in that, no way would we try to do what it does in matlab

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I was referencing that meme that existed a few years ago, about finishing C.

user20683

@GlenH7 I had to use it for my DIP class. I hated every second of it.

Thomas Owens

So I asked how much C I needed to know before I could learn MATLAB and if MATLAB was really the future of engineering.

user55340

@AshleyNunn they're the abbreviations of various old operating systems names. CTSS is Compatible Time-Sharing System, and Multics was its successor. Unix was a pun on Multics.

user20683

7:40 PM

@ThomasOwens

user20683

embedsysweekly.com/issue11-embedded-fpga-uboot

Thomas Owens

?

user55340

But thats more of a family tree thing that isn't really needed to be known anymore... the unix wars are (mostly) over.

user55340

@enderland !! We haven't seen you in a bit

enderland

wow pinged immediately haha

user41796

7:41 PM

Someone mentioned engineering, so @enderland had to pop in. :-)

enderland

lol

user15026

@MichaelT ah. :) makes sense, then, that I don't know anything about it.

user55340

Unix wars

The Unix wars were the struggles between vendors of the Unix computer operating system in the late 1980s and early 1990s to set the standard for Unix thenceforth. Origins In the mid-1980s, the two common versions of Unix were BSD, from the University of California, Berkeley, and System V, from AT&T Corporation. Both were derived from the earlier Version 7 Unix, but had diverged considerably. Further, each vendor's version of Unix was different to some degree. A group of vendors formed the X/Open standards group in 1984, with the aim of forming compatible open systems. They chose to ...

user20683

@ThomasOwens Round up of a weeks worth of Embedded Systems articles, a sharedish interest IIRC

Thomas Owens

For 10k SO users: stackoverflow.com/questions/821653/…

enderland

7:43 PM

too bad getting 10k rep on SO is so hard when you don't know frequent tags

user41796

@FrostEngineer thanks for the link. I think @maple_shaft was playing with embedded too.

user55340

@ThomasOwens Back when I was in college, the intro to programming had 3 different flavors. There was "C", there was "P" and there was "F+C" as the different classes. I took the pascal one because I knew a bit of it. Probably didn't help me as much as C would have, but then I rarely programed in pure C after that either because the classes were transitioning to C++

user55340

@enderland Just learn some haskell... you'll be fine.

enderland

Jan 3 at 7:02, by Frost Engineer

The problem with Haskell is that it's a language built on lazy evaluation and nobody's actually called for it.

user20683

@GlenH7 He's playing with a Raspberry Pi. Calling that thing an "Embedded System" is like calling kissing "sex"

2

user55340

7:45 PM

The numerical methods class (412) that I took (3 times - not my favorite) was taught once in all fortran.

user41796

@FrostEngineer it's a gateway activity... ;-)

Robert Harvey

3

Q: Close Vote options no longer include option for "must include code" and "must show minimal understanding"

What happened to the close vote option for posts that describe an error or unexpected result but don't include the relevant code or any code!? This is on of the two most popular I use.. What am I supposed to do about questions like this now!? I just also noticed "must show minimal understanding"...

discussion support stackoverflow custom-close-reasons

user15026

@frostengineer well depending what fundie Christians you talk to ;)

user20683

@AshleyNunn Jesus kissed people. On the feet even.

user15026

@frostengineer Yep, which is why that argument sucks. Also feet are icky.

user41796

7:47 PM

(probably best not to leave that one around for future views to go WAT?)

2

user20683

@GlenH7 Yeah...tad blasphemous.

user15026

@GlenH7 yeah, maybe not.

user55340

@GlenH7 you could have so much fun trolling a certain .SE with that deleted comment as a question.

enderland

nah the answer is just "no"

user41796

I have had acquaintances in the past who would have been very troubled by the previous smattering of comments

user41796

7:48 PM

@MichaelT I would worry about the sock puppet account being traced back to me.

user15026

@GlenH7 I used to be one of those sorts. Now I just roll with stuff.

enderland

perhaps it shoudl bother me more than it does?

user41796

@AshleyNunn Unfortunately, they never learned otherwise. So I don't associate with them much anymore.

user55340

See, this was the fun part on Usenet back in the day... you could crosspost to multiple groups with one question.

user55340

And the thing is that the answers from one group would show up in the other group too...

enderland

7:50 PM

"fun part" ???????

user55340

So cross posting between... say... comp.lang.perl and comp.lang.python could generate much... lets call it 'debate'

user55340

But those too are quite similar... rec.games.roguelike.nethack and rec.food.cooking when asking about if eating a tinned lizard is safe.

user41796

@MichaelT If the can isn't dented or otherwise deformed, then yes, it's likely safe.

user55340

or alt.sysadmin.recovery and comp.support.microsoft.word... that type of thing.

user55340

(this is why the bofh.* hierarchy was firmly restricted to a very limited distribution... and people weren't hesitant to cut out branches that were too permissive with their feeds)

user55340

7:56 PM

(hmm... wonder if I'll repcap today from the two problems answer... and let that be a lesson to you... being able to write well gets you rep)

user41796

@FrostEngineer - mind if I tweak your license / copyright answer? Licenses don't grant usage of the copyright; they grant usage of the thing that's copyrighted. And you would be sued for violating the license, not the copyright if you break the license.

user20683

@GlenH7 go ahead, I've tweaked it a bunch already.

user20683

for future reference, I've no ego about my answers.

user41796

@FrostEngineer will do, thanks. I prefer to ask before making more than a quick edit.

user20683

fair enough

user41796

8:00 PM

especially since you're here in chat too

enderland

you mean you aren't heartless with that little pink gravatar?

user55340

At some point, I've gotta hunt up the Chrysler Comprehensive Compensation System - the documentation of the first iteration.

user55340

15

Q: What do you deliver in the first couple of iterations in Agile?

As I understand, the idea with Agile methodologies is that you deliver something functional and you deliver it often. The application gets into its final shape increment after increment. But in the early iterations you might build the framework or foundations on which the application will stand ...

agile development-process frameworks development-methodologies iterative-development

user55340

On the first day(?), they had it print a paycheck. It didn't take into account any business rules... but it "worked"

user41796

@enderland I'll respond to that once I'm done down-voting some of your answers.

user41796

8:03 PM

@MichaelT 42 bajillion dollars written out to me

user55340

@GlenH7 This was Chrysler...

user20683

@MichaelT So that's why they went Bankrupt...twice...

user15026

That sounds a little alarming.

enderland

@GlenH7 sweet hit 9 on workplace to even out my rep kthx

user41796

@enderland I haven't signed my voting ring up on TW. Trying to keep it tight so it stays under the radar.

user20683

8:09 PM

Voting Ring...interesting

user55340

(I wonder if we get the highest density of blue names outside of TL here...)

user41796

@FrostEngineer yeah, don't worry, I keep it real quiet. It's just a couple of hundred votes per day here and on a few other choice sites. But nothing that would attract attention, you know, like thousands of votes or anything.

user20683

@MichaelT The Bridge periodically gets waves.

user20683

Because the Bridge

user55340

The key is the density... right now, we're at 3/14 (just a tad over 20%).

user41796

8:15 PM

Yesterday was fairly high in blue density too with Karl, Maple, Thomas, and whoever else was in the room

thorsten müller

►

user55340

@FrostEngineer holy walls of text Batman. ( programmers.stackexchange.com/posts/223653/revisions )

user20683

@MichaelT With regards to the question I just closed as unclear (aka why you no do your own work?)

user55340

I got my cv in before you did... even with my wall of text edit.

user20683

@MichaelT I was actually reading the thing to determine if it was a "gimme codes" or not.

user55340

8:18 PM

I was reading it as I was editing it... looking for a question.

user20683

Also I have made a rule. If I'm ever in a hiring position and I see a "gimme the codes" question from the candidate on SO or anywhere on SE, I chuck their resume.

user20683

Otherwise, I might as well just hire the guy who gave them the codes.

user55340

Jan 3 at 22:26, by MichaelT

This is not a question, this is a requirements document! StackOverflow is not here to do your job for you. If you have a question then ask a question. — Eric Lippert 5 hours ago

user55340

Thats the one I was looking for.

maple_shaft

@FrostEngineer Yeah... embedded systems typically don't have convenient Python libraries

:)

user20683

8:21 PM

@maple_shaft Embedded systems typically lack the memory to run the Python VM.

user20683

Lua can go down to about 32k

user41796

@FrostEngineer It's one of the things I check for when I look at candidate's SO profiles.

user55340

@maple_shaft admit it, you want to learn Forth.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa

user20683

stephendiehl.com/llvm

user55340

8:51 PM

> A game among UNIX users, either to test the depth of an Emacs user's understanding of the editor or to poke fun at the complexity of Emacs, involved predicting what would happen if a user held down a modifier key (such as Control or Alt) and typed their own name.

Ampt

amazon.com/SainSmart-4-CH-4-Channel-Relay-Module/dp/B0057OC5O8/…

this is sweet

250V @ 10Amps x4

control it with a little arduino

user55340

My Pi+Ard project (when I get around to it) will be making a sleep timer for floor lamps. I've got mechanical timers on them currently... and they work. But I'd like to have it so that I can do a... well, high tech clapper.

Ampt

stomper?

stomp on, stomp off

user55340

►

Ampt

boss gave me a little arduino uno that we didn't need

and I started to look for some high power relays

those will definitely do

amazon.com/Kootek-Channel-Module-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/…

user41796

9:07 PM

@Ampt It kind of blows my mind that you can buy banks of relays via amazon

Ampt

@GlenH7 Mine too. Those are some seriously heavy duty relays too

user41796

Although amazon doesn't quite strike me as being geared to make it easy to find the exact electronic part you're looking for

Ampt

@GlenH7 You'd be surprised at how the arduinos and RPIs are shaking stuff up

user41796

@Ampt one of the projects I want to do is to build a new sprinkler / irrigation system timer. I'm thinking an arduino + a big bank of relays and I'm golden

Ampt

@GlenH7 yeah. 10 amps at 250v? that is a stupid amount of power

some of your circuit breakers are likely to blow before that

Chris Okyen

9:10 PM

pastebin.com/3nz23ufF OR pastebin.com/rkte76xd I found a way to automate the program I was talking to you about @RobertHarvey

user55340

@GlenH7 Theres lots of stuff on amazon.

user55340

amazon.com/Ferrero-Nutella-Made-Italy-Giant/dp/B003NL9MPW/…

Chris Okyen

I will be back on later. Posted that so I have a perma reference to my Code

user41796

@MichaelT How is their streaming service? I'm presuming you have prime though

user55340

amazon.com/dp/B004BBR95I

user55340

9:13 PM

Now think about that for a bit...

user55340

user55340

@GlenH7 Actually, I don't.

Ampt

I DO!

user41796

We have netflix currently. Have been considering prime, but not sure if there's enough value. I can usually be patient and don't need 2 day shipping

Ampt

haven't used streaming though lol

user41796

9:15 PM

@Ampt tell. me. more. But preferably something of use.

Ampt

@GlenH7 2 day shipping will quite possibly change your life

user41796

You have the student version, right?

Ampt

@GlenH7 nope, full. you only get student free for a year

then you pay a discounted rate and get the full thing

used up my year, but the 40 bucks for the year as a student is awesome

I don't go shopping anymore at stores

user41796

why haven't you used the streaming then?

Ampt

(except for food)

Ain't nobody got time for that

but ordering goods over the internet and having them show up in 2 days?

flippin amazing

need a new pair of shoes? get em on prime and save yourself from having to go to the store and actually deal with people

user55340

9:18 PM

Can't wait for the drones?

Ampt

eh, I think the weight limit is gonna be an issue

now if they deliver cold 6 packs.....

user41796

@Ampt I'm sure they'll be ambient temperature. Which would be perfectly fine at the moment.

Ampt

@GlenH7 idk man, I would pay more than store price but less than bar price for a cold 6 pack of my choice

so anywhere from 6-12 dollars for cold beer, delivered to my door

user41796

@Ampt might need bigger drones with greater lift for that

user41796

How often do you use the kindle lending library?

Ampt

9:22 PM

@GlenH7 never have.

user41796

@Ampt have you used any of the benefits besides 2 day shipping?

Ampt

@GlenH7 Don't believe so, no

I probably should

I just... don't

user41796

@Ampt I'm not judging you. Just trying to see if the additional features are worthwhile.

Ampt

I'm not saying they aren't

but I'm saying that if I'm going to watch a movie or TV show, I'll use a... different service

user41796

It would be awesome if they had audible books in their lending library

Ampt

9:26 PM

I haven't ever got in to audio books, but I hear good things
*Buh-dum-tss*

user41796

funny. Chat comments I flag don't show up in my flag notification.

Ampt

oh come on, it wasn't that bad

user41796

It probably didn't show up because I didn't actually flag anything

user41796

and there are ~15k videos available for viewing via amazon prime

user55340

chat flags make mods mad...

user55340

9:35 PM

@Ampt heh, I was just rereading the Open Letter for that massive wall of text question recently asked... and thought of our own annotation bit and how an industry programmer took an academic programmer down a completely different path than the instructor was intending.

Matt S.

@GlenH7 I generally don't find much on Prime that isn't on Netflix. And I think Netflix has a more reliable video player.

Also, not all streaming movies are available for free with Prime

user41796

@MattS. cool, thanks for the feedback.

user41796

I was skimming over the titles, and it seems decent but I haven't compared against netflix yet

user41796

and I wasn't planning on getting rid of netflix

Matt S.

@GlenH7 Yeah, I still think it's worth it just for the two-day shipping

I'm spoiled now, I can't imagine not getting things within a day or two.

I'm close to one of the distribution centers I think, so sometimes stuff gets here the next day. :P

user41796

9:41 PM

@MattS. sure, sure, rub it in. :-)

Matt S.

Haha :P

I'm kind of bummed that they don't have all the movies Netflix has. I would like to combine services.

user55340

I'm waiting for Amazon to suggest trebuchet delivery if drone delivery isn't allowed.

Matt S.

i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news-700/…

Did you guys see Amazon ships cars now?

user55340

Amazon corporate office plans... those are actually missile silos for ultra fast delivery.

Matt S.

9:47 PM

I'm thinking tubes through the core of the earth would be fastest.

Robert Harvey

@ChrisOkyen The top part of pastebin.com/3nz23ufF looks vastly superior to any code you showed us before.

user55340

( seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/… )

Robert Harvey

Those look like giant terrariums.

user55340

10:00 PM

@RobertHarvey That's actually the design... I still like the hidden missile silos though.

user55340

> The spheres still would range in height from 80 feet to 95 feet and feature a mix of flex work space and an atrium of plants and trees.

user41796

I'm totally seeing the hidden silos. Each eye will spiral open and allow the rocket to launch.

user55340

Related reading: npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/12/24/255859905/…

user41796

I thought someone relinquished his sock puppets....

user41796

yannis, Hellas

101 1

sql teamwork

user55340

10:07 PM

Nah... different Yannis... and apparently likes SO... so certainly not diamond Yannis.

user41796

@MichaelT I was mostly laughing at the similarities

user55340

And he looks far too happy. I can't imagine Yannis ever smiling.

user41796

> Enthusiastic developer, having a passion for coding and new technologies. Currently engaged to PHP, having a secret affair with Java and flirting with Scala.

MetaFight

shameless self promotion

1

Q: How to extend CodeLens

I'm currently writing a tool to help maintain unit and integration tests (coded tests). I've started extending Visual Studio to make the developer experience nicer, which got me to notice the new-ish CodeLens feature. The stuff I'm currently showing as a tooltip should probably actually be part...

visual-studio visual-studio-extensions codelens

Ampt

@MichaelT Haha yeah, I definitely appreciate that and he thinks its crazy awesome. Called me out in the middle of class to explain it

user41796

10:08 PM

@MichaelT It is a sock puppet... So it's allowed to smile.

user41796

@MetaFight I don't know the answer, but I gave you 5 imaginary points to help you along

user55340

@Ampt Industry things are often "over engineered" when compared to academic - because the code will be used and extended in a year or two. On the other hand, I want to say that its more pragmatic and not trying to use astronaut architecture for the sake of the grade.

Ampt

@MichaelT I got a worse grade because of it hahaha

user41796

@Ampt No, you got a worse grade because you forgot to do all the requirements.

user55340

@Ampt As I said, we architect things differently than the academics like.

Ampt

10:11 PM

@GlenH7 :P

user55340

Flashbacks to previous employment....

user55340

0

Q: thermal printer java

Please help trying to print in a thermal printer using this code, I get a print job in my system tray but my thermal printer doesnt print. PrintReceiptUtil class: import java.awt.JobAttributes; import java.io.ByteArrayInputStream; import java.io.IOException; import java.io.InputStream; import j...

java printing

Ampt

@GlenH7 Not my fault his Reqs page reads like a bad chinese menu

MetaFight

@GlenH7 I love imaginary points! Thanks :)

user41796

@Ampt maybe not your fault, but you suffer the price

MetaFight

10:12 PM

wow, already at +4. Thanks to a bunch of you :)

user55340

We're going to confuse @ThomasOwens again.

user41796

@MichaelT They ought to give you or I a diamond to solve that issue.

Ampt

@GlenH7 Lol you want one?

user55340

I keep saying... give it to @Ampt so that we both get it...

user55340

10:32 PM

0

A: Is there any reason to use C++ instead of C, Perl, Python, etc.?

There's actually a single answer to all questions formed like this. The best reason to use tech X instead of tech Y (where X and Y are roughly on the same level [like just about all contemporary programming languages are]) is because you already know X and don't know Y. (but after Haskell arrive...

user55340

(just shy of short enough...)

user55340

> (but after Haskell arrived, there has been no reason to use anything else)

user55340

@GlenH7 You know... it doesn't even need to be a P.SE diamond... it could be like... oh... MSO diamond or something else similarly use(full|less).

Robert Harvey

10:57 PM

So you're going to hang your hat on never learning relations because you get all of your data from some magic black box over the Internet, the internal mechanisms of which you couldn't care less about how they work? It wouldn't be true anyway, because you can represent complex data structures (including relations) in objects handed to you over the Internet. So you're still going to need some basic understanding. — Robert Harvey 2 mins ago

Y'know, these conversations are really hard to follow when you guys delete all of them.

ARGGH!

@yannis: If you don't know how to do a join, you don't have a working knowledge of SQL at all. I don't know how you can really call yourself a developer without such knowledge. — Robert Harvey 2 mins ago

user55340

11:12 PM

6 hours ago, by Thomas Owens

Dammit, guys.

Robert Harvey

(removed)

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I don't think that SQL knowledge is completely necessary to call yourself a developer

user55340

Though, you need to do it as a "load earlier messages" since the transcript doesn't show deleted messages.

Robert Harvey

Deleting messages only guarantees that someone will read them.

@Ampt If you don't know how to do a join, then you don't have any SQL knowledge at all. Joins are the first thing people learn.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey yeah, but is that mandatory to be a software dev?

user55340

11:15 PM

@RobertHarvey Well, after select itself.

user55340

And these nosql people today...

Ampt

or just an SQL dev

user55340

join? You mean Javascriopt Operation Including 'Nother document?

Robert Harvey

@Ampt No, but how can you get through the first year of your career without stumbling over JOIN at least once?

Ampt

honestly, to me, SQL falls in the realm with regex: great for when you need them, but there are entire worlds of programming without them

I have. No SQL here :)

Robert Harvey

11:16 PM

@MichaelT The NoSQL folks like to write their loops by hand that SQL engineers have been able to avoid for years.

user55340

Thats assuming you're working in the crud / enterprise world. There is a not-trivial part of the programming world that never touches databases.

Robert Harvey

Well, phones and pads are not part of that world.

user55340

Game programmers for example.

Robert Harvey

Games still need a place to store data.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey most android phones have a sql database running on them :)

Robert Harvey

11:17 PM

I believe I just said that.

user55340

But they've abstracted that all away to a serilization if they do it at all.

Ampt

> There is a not-trivial part of the programming world that never touches databases.

user55340

Many times they don't know they are working with a relational database under the covers... if they need to work with it at all.

user55340

Linux kernel types, file systems, compilers...

Robert Harvey

Anyone who has ever deserialized a data structure with a one to many relationship in it already knows about joins, even if they've never seen the SQL keyword.

user55340

11:19 PM

Its only when you need to read and store persistent data that is itself relationally shaped, that you find sql and the joy of join.

Robert Harvey

Or Linq.

Or the functional paradigms on which Linq is based. Shall I go on?

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I don't want to say you're wrong.....

Robert Harvey

lol

user55340

But the thing is, they don't realize that its a join if they are doing it at all.

Ampt

hahaha. No, you're right. There is a LARGE part of the programming world which relies on databases

and it probably does make you better off to know what the hell a join is

user55340

11:20 PM

Its really the people who do crud / web work that live and breath databases... because thats where we have to store our data.

Robert Harvey

Lewis Black used to say about Bush not being well-travelled: "Even drunk and on a bet, you make it to Canada."

user55340

Manytimes other parts of programming will find themselves writing databases, but thats because can't embed oracle easily.

Robert Harvey

If a programmer doesn't have enough intellectual curiosity to find out the first thing about SELECT and JOIN, what is the hope of them ever learning the first thing about, say, functional programming concepts?

user55340

Going back to linux, the file systems... they're really databases. Process tables, stuff in /proc... yea. Its a view. They're solving the same problems databases do.

user55340

@RobertHarvey Indeed... the lack of curiosity is the biggest problem for someone claiming to be a sr. programmer.

user55340

11:23 PM

(or lead)

user55340

You need to be aware of and at least have tried, especially as a lead, so that when you are given a problem you can quickly pick the right path for development.

user55340

I've done ldap, oracle, couch, mysql and teradata (big warehousesing). I like to think that given a problem I know which one I should pick.

user55340

But if you haven't ever done a join... you're not going to always pick the right architecture for a solution.

user55340

And with that... its a bit after 5pm...

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